Guy.brush Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 I dunno about you but I find the bland lighting and color styles in the TALES screenshots and videos to be somewhat lacking. Maybe it's Telltale's lack of good lighting artists or their engine not having the capability for more than one dynamic light or deep shadows, I dunno. But: There is potential for improvement, even if Telltale lacks the lighting TD or engineering talent to improve lighting in their scenes or integrate new features into their engine. And you don't have to increase the polycount (which would still be a nice thing to do btw). You can do an aweful lot with adding post-processing filters, after the image is rendered. Something like this: EDIT: new tests: old daytime tests (not as good I know...) As you can see there is lots of potential for the images in TALES to look drastically better (at least for my taste) and less bland 3d-ish. I just played around with typical post-filters and applied basic eye perception rules normally done in film compositing. here are some of the tweaks to get the game to look more like a hand-drawn MI2: -color balancing ->red is the first color that gets weaker over distance (the human eye works that way) -some depth of field mock-up -increasing/decreasing contrast to get focus into the images -added vignettes to increase focus -tried to increase the shadow depth (Caribbean sun for God's sake!) -simplified the background colors to match a more handdrawn style (there are ugly hues in the original skies, especially in the one with the pirate captain) -added slight drawing outline effects What do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SyntheticGerbil Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 Wow, you really didn't achieve any of the bullet points on your list. It just looks like a webcomic or someone's deviant art. They aren't rendering images anyways, so it's not as simple as saving out jpegs and going into photoshop and having your way with everything in the filters menu. I'm not sure how all the real-time 3d stuff works from engine to engine, but I'm sure they have less options to add realtime filters since they are working from their own individual code on this stuff. I'm sure it's expensive to develop shaders from scratch with the people they have for the Telltale engine, and more expensive to license out and fit the regular Brown and Bloom types that everyone and their mom uses. All that said, yeah I have no idea why they don't increase poly count or work more on their lighting, but eh, it's definitely improved greatly since Bone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy.brush Posted July 2, 2009 Author Share Posted July 2, 2009 Every 3d engine (at least the good ones) has color-correction and post-pro filters integrated nowadays. Just look at the stuff Valve did with LEFT4DEAD. They just added artificial highlight outlines around skyline geometry and characters, gave it a little film grain, increased contrast etc and everything is done on-the-fly. Of course i did these tests in After Effects, but a good engine should be able to do this stuff in real-time. For my tests I couldn't use the internally rendered alpha or depth channels so they are a little rough of course. But when engines render alpha, depth passes etc, internally anyway, why shouldn't you use it to improve the final image? There are some Telltale screenshots that look drastically better than others. The one with the Voodoo mama looks near perfect for my taste. But others, like the ones I used for the test look really bland next to it. It's a little sad really. It seems as if they basically transplanted their Sam & Max engine and used it unmodified for Monkey Island. But when you have a game that for most of the time will feature the harsh Caribbean sun, dark voodoo stuff, lightning storms on the open sea or glowing magic, you really should modify your engine to be suited for that kind of lighting. If, as I said they lack that capability, there is always the chance to improve the final image at least slightly with post-FX filters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kroms Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 Check out the latest MI video, Guy.brush. All far better than the screenshots you're using. I can see what you were going for, but I don't like it that much either. It looks like someone tried to combine Team ICO with Telltale, and the results aren't pretty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SyntheticGerbil Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 Every 3d engine (at least the good ones) has color-correction and post-pro filters integrated nowadays. Just look at the stuff Valve did with LEFT4DEAD. You do realize Telltale is not Valve? They do not have the same extensive research and development, nor do they use the Valve engine. I would love to hear about all the 3D engines that Telltale should be using besides their own, especially the "good ones." Then with that information, see if you can go to the Private Pirate discussion board, ask them how much their engine costs to upkeep and compare it to the cost of licensing, I don't know, the Unreal Engine. They just added artificial highlight outlines around skyline geometry and characters, gave it a little film grain, increased contrast etc and everything is done on-the-fly. Of course i did these tests in After Effects, but a good engine should be able to do this stuff in real-time. I don't think any amount of gaussian blur and poster edges will just make anything better. They just need a better lighting artist, although that may also mean an improved engine so the lighting artist can do better. The different between this and the SE, you can go to the Telltale boards and complain. They will listen, if someone from there is not already checking here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laserschwert Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 Ouch, those "improvements" look terrible... Check out the new screenshots on Telltale's site (and the new gameplay-video)... they have made ToMI looking really good by now. (And it's funny how some people mention depth-of-field, without actually knowing when and how to use it). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy.brush Posted July 2, 2009 Author Share Posted July 2, 2009 I know they aren't using SOURCE, UNREAL or CRYENGINE I'm not dumb. Their engine doesn't have to have any AI modules, or any other more advanced dynamic relationship stuff or multiplayer components. So the upkeep should be minimal compared to the heavy flagship engines. But what it should have is good lighting. They are telling stories where it is crucial that a single screen looks as fabulous as it can get. Their artwork stays way longer on the screen than the environments in a typical FPS game. I can totally live with the fact that due to Wii compatibility and time constraints the polycount is very limited, but you have to counter such a weakness with a very good lighting and post-pro fx. I mentioned Valve, cause they do exactly that. Their engine is the oldest/weakest out there (out of the flagship ones) but with each product they gradually implement more post-pro fx and little tricks. I know they are bigger but basic color-correction or film grain stuff is NOT a lot of work. EDIT: Laserschwert I know very well what Depth of Field is and I know it's overused in games, but not having any at all isn't good either. It helps to bake an image together when you don't have lot's of detail. And I saw the new gameplay video and that is exactly when I decided to try the test. I found the LeChuck encounter very bland. I can see why he is totally alone on his ship, cause the animation work for a crew would be enormous but his animated beard looked ugly and the atmosphere of the stormy sea was lacking. And please remember: I did these "tests" on 600pixel resolution screenshots with no z-pass or alpha channel available (which normally are rendered internally for a variety of post-effects) so of course they aren't the perfect improvement. I still think they are better than feeling the single polygons shaded with a simple style lambert shader where you can almost feel the face normals. In some screenshots it almost feels like it's the Maya realtime-viewport. (which hasn't been upgraded since ever) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SyntheticGerbil Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 Ask the team in the Private Pirates Forum if they are working on any shaders then. They may be, as they tend to do little improvements here and there before the end of season DVD release. (And it's funny how some people mention depth-of-field, without actually knowing when and how to use it). EVERYTHING NOT IN THE FOREGROUND MUST BE BLURRED! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laserschwert Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 EVERYTHING NOT IN THE FOREGROUND MUST BE BLURRED! Hehe... some people seem to think that But actually even when they think different, they still don't realize that wide-shots usually don't have any DOF at all... I know very well what Depth of Field is and I know it's overused in games, but not having any at all isn't good either.Okay, now I'm sure you haven't watched the latest gameplay-movie, because one of the first things I've noticed in it, was the great (subtle) use of DOF. Really, you can read my post over at the Telltale-forum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scapetti Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 Oh dear, I guess he wasn't joking then? When he posted in my topic "My favourite Guybrush so far!" I thought he was taking the piss XD Look what I just improved :3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy.brush Posted July 2, 2009 Author Share Posted July 2, 2009 Yeah I watched it again in HD (had only watched a smaller version) and you're right, there is a very subtle DoF effect going on. But it's way too subtle in the zoom-lense close-ups to be anywhere near a realistic 35mm DoF. Dunno what they are aiming for, but it's not filmic. btw, their props all look like a little miniature world, so increasing DoF even more (over the level of a typical 35mm lense) would be appropriate. I love the fact that they changed the opening to a thunderstorm, but the sad thing is that it just demonstrates the engine's weaknesses even more. There are no real hard shadows from the lightning. Just look at LeChuck's ship. Look how the ground contact between LeChuck and the ship looks. Look in the corners. It still looks like a bright diffuse day, but with a darker sky. EDIT: haha nice one. Yeah I'd call that a slight improvement. The image is a lot more readable from a far. It even get's something like texture. It's crude, but it's improved. Game developers imho are way too careful with applying this kind of stuff to their images, cause it could ruin their clean 3d images or piss of fans that hate cell-shading. Well if it's done right, roughening up the image can do a lot to conceal weaknesses and enhance an intended art style. EDIT2: You will hate me even more for this but this is how a thunderstorm setting can look like in a modern 3d game. COD4 (2007). I know, I know it's a totally different art style aiming for realism, and I know that Infinity Ward are infinitely bigger than Telltale, but at it's core, it's still an incredibly old engine (id tech3 or Quake3 from 1999). Just heavily, heavily modified over the years so that it could support something like the awesome lightning shadows. Here is a thunderstorm with nice post-fx from MGS2 (2001): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aalAPyVwlcg Again, totally different art style, and another AAA flagship title I know, but still it oozes atmosphere. All I'm asking is: Why can't Monkey Island be this atmospheric? When I played MI and MI2 in the old days they reeked of atmosphere. The whole Caribbean setting is ripe with atmosphere. Sadly the 3d entries lack this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scapetti Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 Hang on, you're being serious? You just told me I improved it? Dude, you're insane... and besides, post-processing in video games makes them so damn slow on lower-end systems. I'm happy to be able to play TellTale games on my laptop without having to switch off loads of unnecessary filtering. The game looks beautiful how it is! They are keeping it in the Monkey Island style, this isn't Left 4 Dead (it's not trying to look like a B-movie). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giant Graffiti Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 Look what I just improved :3 Why are his sleeves colored a sick yellow? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scapetti Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 Why are his sleeves colored a sick yellow? Because I couldn't be bothered to find a decent Wind Waker picture? I don't know :S More improvements: Have I made my point yet? ¬_¬ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy.brush Posted July 2, 2009 Author Share Posted July 2, 2009 No. What is your point? You are the holy artist demonstrating that more contrast doesn't equal a better image? Again, I'm not dumb. I know this. I just tried to do a quick mock-up to increase the atmosphere of the bland 3d-ish screenshots. Just because it's Telltale and I will buy the game doesn't mean I can not challenge them or call them out on something that lacks quality. In my opinion the increases in quality and fidelity between EMI and TMI are below that of the average of other AAA titles and the videogame industry as a whole. Just look how games have progressed from 2000->2009. How the level of craftmanship and the quality of art styles (IN 3D!) have been enhanced. And it's way above what the Telltale team is demonstrating. (that is from a lighting, atmosphere, fx point of view, animations look fine) And I find that a little sad for a title like Monkey Island. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scapetti Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 Sadly the 3d entries lack this. You realise Escape from Monkey Island used 2D backgrounds right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SyntheticGerbil Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 EDIT2: You will hate me even more for this but this is how a thunderstorm setting can look like in a modern 3d game. COD4 (2007). I know, I know it's a totally different art style aiming for realism, and I know that Infinity Ward are infinitely bigger than Telltale, but at it's core, it's still an incredibly old engine (id tech3 or Quake3 from 1999). Just heavily, heavily modified over the years so that it could support something like the awesome lightning shadows. Here is a thunderstorm with nice post-fx from MGS2 (2001): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aalAPyVwlcg Again, totally different art style, and another AAA flagship title I know, but still it oozes atmosphere. Are you being serious? Telltale is in no way in league with Konami or Infinity Ward. You said it yourself, so what are you expecting? I'm not even sure most fans would want any atmosphere beyond what is given in MI2 or CMI. Telltale sells budget games, and while they could definitely improve lighting and models in my opinion, there's also not one complete series on their site that reaches over the fifty dollar mark. You might as well go ask The Behemoth why Castle Crashers can't have 30 fps full frame drawn animation without using tweens like an actual Metal Slug game. With you and Parabolee, I get this weird sort of constant defensive feeling towards anything to do with the Special Edition and now we are feeling the backlash towards Tales of Monkey Island, as if it will steal the thunder. I was getting way too involved in the nitpicking with the Special Edition, which is fine enough and I will purchase it. I really don't want it to turn into this for the Telltale series now too. I almost thought both of you worked on the Special Edition, seeing as you both freshly arrived at the same time last month after all of the publicity and being oddly attached to an unreleased remake. You both use the word "fidelity" a lot, was that phrase thrown around the office often? Who knows? Maybe I'm right and you guys are 2 of the 3 artists? Do you have a website by any chance? If you want to PM me it, I would appreciate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scapetti Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 ...something that lacks quality.. Are you serious? Why aren't you complaining about the game on the TellTale forums? I'm sure they will be eager to improve the quality before Tuesday with all this negative feedback they are getting... from you Edit: I love how none of us can believe he is being serious, maybe he's a troll? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy.brush Posted July 2, 2009 Author Share Posted July 2, 2009 I'm working for a AAA video game developer that is still independent. More I will not say If I gave of the impression that I love the SE stuff and hate TMI, that is wrong. It's just that I'm slightly dissappointed that I get another 3d Monkey Island where for my taste an integral part (atmosphere) is lacking somewhat. And it being a budget title doesn't cut it as an all-in-one excuse. There are vfx heavy independent films nowadays that have the same level of sophistication as a blockbuster from 10 years ago. There are modders out there using the big engines in better ways than a AAA team would've done 5 years ago. Monkey Island is just dear to me and I hate it being not the best looking it can be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy.brush Posted July 2, 2009 Author Share Posted July 2, 2009 EDIT: I'm totally serious. And back to having realistic expectations: Due to the very nature of the process of doing the episodes and how the game gradually evolves, I'd love to see them improve on a little something in each episode. If there is time to improve a shader, a texture or lighting of a scene do it and don't just copy & paste the backgrounds and settings into each new episode. When the whole season comes out, I'd love it to be better looking than when the first episode "aired". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scapetti Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 Why not just change the brightness and contrast on your PC monitor whenever you play the game? Problem solved! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy.brush Posted July 2, 2009 Author Share Posted July 2, 2009 You guys probably are the same types that defended Blizzard when fans found the new Diablo3 art style lacking and too similar to WoW. "Oh if you want less color saturation, just turn down saturation on your LCD dude!" As if that has anything to do with what I've proposed. Well who is the next one with a snarky comment questioning my sincerity or intellect? I could do this all day! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SyntheticGerbil Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 And it being a budget title doesn't cut it as an all-in-one excuse. It's the same excuse you used for the Special Edition. Only difference is you don't need a big budget to hire a skilled artist, just as Telltale doesn't need a huge budget to hire a skilled texture model. But when you are start going into engines, shaders, and post effects, especially since Telltale has it's own engine, there are more costs involved. Again, maybe the lighting artist isn't very good or maybe he's limited by the engine? The comparison in that manner to Hollywood films vs. independent films doesn't exactly cut it because there are a lot of ways to cheat with a film on a 2D plane compared to a game in 3d, not to mention there is much less programming involved in movie special effects, since it's not an interactive experience. I'm still waiting to see that website. The fact that you work for an AAA company doesn't tell all. Why so secretive about it? Is it LucasArts? My website's been in my user info if you want to be fair. You guys probably are the same types that defended Blizzard when fans found the new Diablo3 art style lacking and too similar to WoW. "Oh if you want less color saturation, just turn down saturation on your LCD dude!" Huh? I don't actually play Blizzard games outside of Lost Vikings and Blackthorne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scapetti Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 Well who is the next one with a snarky comment questioning my sincerity or intellect? I could do this all day! Do what all day? Use random video games you can think of as supplement to your argument in ridiculous and profounding ways? He says snarkily Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scapetti Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 You guys probably are the same types that defended Blizzard when I alone found the new Diablo3 art style lacking and too similar to WoW. "Oh if you want less color saturation, just turn down saturation on your LCD dude!" Corrected Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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