WRFan's TSLRP Code Fixes - Morally Sound?

[mimartin]

He isn't releasing the beta that some people are already using. he is not helping anyone to get the beta. all he is doing is saying "If you already have it, here are some things I figured out on how to fix some issues."

 

HE(i'm assuming WRFan is a he) didn't steal that.

 

Never wrote he did. I wrote

Do I think it is right for someone to assist in that distribution by making it work better? No

Never said he stole anything. I said he was making something easier to use that was being used without permission. You are reading my reply to another poster and taking it out of context. It was speaking to the beta and not the codes. Or is it your intention to that the beta did not involve other modders work?

 

I'm also not saying it is against any rules here. As far as I am concerned it is not since RedHawke wrote it was not.

 

All I was saying is I do not think it was right.

[jrrtoken]

The reason I went "eh?" at the title is because I think of morality issues on a big scale--war, famine, poverty, mass murder, human rights oppression, and so on, and this seems so small in comparison that it's almost silly to compare.

Er, alright, but I believe it still could be considered a moral/legal issue. Much like with the film and music industry, DRM, piracy, digital distribution, and other issues are still morally and legally challenging. As of now, thousands of people are being "limited" to how many times they can install any game like Spore, even though they already spent a good deal of money to play a rather mediocre game to begin with. I'd say that this same morally/legally questionable practice can be just as controversial as domestic wiretapping without a court order, or such.

 

Might I also add that all of those injustices have been around since the dawn of civilization, and therefore, has been the norm, regardless of how many have attempted to bring about an end to them. I'd also add that no one person can single-handedly end those injustices, even if governments gave damn. The topic that we're is a relatively new moral issue brought about on society, in a matter of speaking.

People dying from starvation because of inhumanity vs. discussion of whether it's morally sound to release a fix for a leaked beta--it's just kind of weird to compare the two on the same level of morality, even if I think honesty, truth, and respect for others' property is extremely important.

Again, if anyone really cared about ending world hunger, they wouldn't really make much of a difference alone, even if they decided to actually do something about it. If the US pledged billions to fight world hunger abroad, there will still be poverty, disease, and famine. It's quite a futile effort, much akin to the "War on Drugs", but it's altruistic in nature than the comparison.

 

Either way, I really think that the US should try to eliminate poverty domestically, before pledging a cent to some third-world nation with barely even enough money to support itself, whereas any other Western nation has more than enough money to dramatically reduce domestic poverty.

[Totenkopf]

I think it's pretty iffy, but no real big deal in the end. About as morally repugnant as you making a copy of a CD your friend doesn't have and giving it to him/her for a roadtrip or just a gift in general. Face it, modding is technically illegal, but tolerated by devs b/c it enhances the gaming experience and may help push more of their product. I seriously doubt a bunch of people are going to go rush to download the beta copy b/c WRFan has reworked a few scripts. Really, though, people here shouldn't get too exercised b/c their pov clashes w/someone else....even if they are moral contortionists:

Now if I was getting paid -- scratch all that.

[Druganator]

 

Oh, the parts where you compare this to stealing other modders work.

 

 

So your point is the beta does not involve other modders work used without their permission? Got it.

 

 

WRFan stole no work in giving the steps to fix a buggy beta that many people downloaded.you implied he did by responding to Web Rider's statement the way you did. If you misspoke then correct yourself.

 

 

hell, i had it before i knew we werent supposed to because i thought it was the complete version because someone had released it as such. I have since removed it as i do not want to have something that incomplete messing up my game.

 

And personally i don't see what's wrong with using a leaked beta for a MODIFICATION of a video game. it's not stealing if it's intended to be free anyway. That's like saying "oh you can have the cookies for free but, nope, no cookie dough, that's stealing"

[mimartin]

WRFan stole no work in giving the steps to fix a buggy beta that many people downloaded.you implied he did by responding to Web Rider's statement the way you did. If you misspoke then correct yourself.

Nope have not misspoken and no, did not say he had stolen. I wrote that it was not right for someone to assist with the beta by providing the codes.

 

There is nothing I see illegal about using a leaked modification (as far as I can see). I do see something unethical about using something someone worked so hard on without their permission.

 

So I do see something unethical about making it easier for others to use the beta.

 

If you do not see a problem with someone being trusted as a beta tester and rewarding that trust by distributing that beta to others. Then you most likely will not have a problem with someone making codes to make using the beta easier. Thus you will disagree with my assessment. It is unethical thus not right. I never wrote or implied that WRFan stole anything. I agree he was very helpful and if it would have been any other mod being used by permission that he assisted on then I would commend him for his help, but the fact that it is a leaked TSLRP being used without permission does not allow me to do so.

 

That's like saying "oh you can have the cookies for free but, nope, no cookie dough, that's stealing"

I'd actually agree, it would be stealing. The owner of the property has the right to put conditions on its use. If said owner says you can have the finished product for free, then the cookie is free. That does not mean the owner forgoes his/her rights to ownership until the prescribed conditions are meet (it is cookie). Until the product is a cookie he/she still retains ownership of the ingredients and even the cookie dough, so the owner can do with it what he or she wants. If he/she does not want you to have the cookie dough, then it would be stealing to take the dough without permission.

[Web Rider]

I'd actually agree, it would be stealing. The owner of the property has the right to put conditions on its use. If said owner says you can have the finished product for free, then the cookie is free. That does not mean the owner forgoes his/her rights to ownership until the prescribed conditions are meet (it is cookie). Until the product is a cookie he/she still retains ownership of the ingredients and even the cookie dough, so the owner can do with it what he or she wants. If he/she does not want you to the cookie dough, then it would be stealing to take the dough without permission.

 

Which once again you should recall that not a single modder here owns anything they've created for Kotor. It all falls under "fan" work, which is entirely at the whimsy of the owner of the proprietary rights of the product you're altering. Under the law, said owner has the rights to tell you to stop or to use anything you've made because everything you're doing is based on their work.

 

What we're trying to get you to realize, is that what WRFan did was make a mod. A mod for a "game"(the TG beta), that lots of people have and shouldn't, but have anyway...It's not like nobody bootleged Kotor right? >_> So saying that he is wrong because he made a mod for a game he shouldn't have, is essentially saying that all modders are wrong, unless they've bought the game. And they're still wrong if the game is recalled.

 

He isn't in the wrong for having a buggy beta, the guy who leaked it is. And he isn't in the wrong for wanting to be helpful and fix it.

 

And please, don't bother with this "well, I didn't say he was wrong." Or "I didn't say he was wrong, only unehtical" or "I didn't say he was immoral, only not-right." It's all the same thing.

[EnderWiggin]

I'd actually agree, it would be stealing. The owner of the property has the right to put conditions on its use. If said owner says you can have the finished product for free, then the cookie is free. That does not mean the owner forgoes his/her rights to ownership until the prescribed conditions are meet (it is cookie). Until the product is a cookie he/she still retains ownership of the ingredients and even the cookie dough, so the owner can do with it what he or she wants. If he/she does not want you to have the cookie dough, then it would be stealing to take the dough without permission.

 

Excellent points, my friend.

 

_EW_

[mimartin]

And please, don't bother with this "well, I didn't say he was wrong." Or "I didn't say he was wrong, only unehtical" or "I didn't say he was immoral, only not-right." It's all the same thing.

No, I will only say you keep taking what I write out of context. I was talking about cookies in what you quoted.

 

That's like saying "oh you can have the cookies for free but, nope, no cookie dough, that's stealing"

I'd actually agree, it would be stealing. The owner of the property has the right to put conditions on its use. If said owner says you can have the finished product for free, then the cookie is free. That does not mean the owner forgoes his/her rights to ownership until the prescribed conditions are meet (it is cookie). Until the product is a cookie he/she still retains ownership of the ingredients and even the cookie dough, so the owner can do with it what he or she wants. If he/she does not want you to have the cookie dough, then it would be stealing to take the dough without permission.[/Quote]

 

What we're trying to get you to realize, is that what WRFan did was make a mod.

No, he only provided codes.

 

I also assure you that I know it is only the codes. I understand that it does not take any part of the work Team Gizka put into TSLRP and use it in any way. That is why I never said he stole anything despite the baseless accusation to the contrary.

 

I would think if you were trying to convince anyone of anything you would first want to actually know what the other person was saying and not assign your own meaning to what was written.

 

I’ll make it easier.

Do I think it is right for someone to take another’s work and distributed it without permission? No[/Quote] This was directed at the distribution of the TSLRP. As far as I know this has nothing to do with TRfan, but without this information I would have no problem with the codes. Had Team Gizka released the mod and then TRfan issued the fix codes I would see no problem with the codes. The fact that I see the unauthorized release of another work as unethical makes me consider my next statement valid.

 

Do I think it is right for someone to assist in that distribution by making it work better? No [/Quote] Since TSLRP was released without permission I do not see how I can conclude anything but the codes to make TSLPR run better are unethical.

 

I really don’t see how assigning a victim make it any more right or wrong for me. [/Quote]This and the rest up to Jae’s quote had to do with people saying the theft of the beta was alright since it was from Team Gizka. As it says it has to do with the victim.

 

@Totenkopf this:

Now if I was getting paid -- scratch all that.

This had to do with those that worked on TSLRP. It would effect my work, unless I was getting paid. In my line of work people steal the work I put into preparation all the time. It does not make me work any less efficiently because I am getting paid for it. As we all know Team Gizka isn’t.

 

 

**************

I never said WRFan stole anything. Never said WRFan did anything morally wrong because I do not think you can hold another to your moral code. Never said the codes were illegal. I said the codes were unethical and I do consider it wrong. Never bemoaned WRFan. If I bemoaned anyone it was the person that stole the beta in the first place.

 

Also don’t say the codes will not allow others to use the beta.

hell, i had it before i knew we werent supposed to because i thought it was the complete version because someone had released it as such. I have since removed it as i do not want to have something that incomplete messing up my game.

So as is, the beta was unplayable for you Druganator?

[Q]

It was playable for me. Buggy as hell, but playable. I even got through the HK factory, which a lot of people could not do. When I got stuck where a script wasn't firing, all it took was repeatedly reloading saves until it did fire.

 

Wow, mimartin, you've put a lot of thought into this. You might say that I've taken a comparatively simplistic view of of the entire situation.

[Totenkopf]

@Totenkopf this:

This had to do with those that worked on TSLRP. It would effect my work, unless I was getting paid. In my line of work people steal the work I put into preparation all the time. It does not make me work any less efficiently because I am getting paid for it. As we all know Team Gizka isn’t.

 

C'mon, you did notice the , right? I was ribbing you for making the unacceptability of the act to you based upon remuneration. But I'm a bit curious, since it was a beta version it would only be incomplete, right? So, unless people felt the beta sucked hind-end, why would someone really feel too bad about someone providing a few code fixes for what is essentially a preview? I can understand people being upset about the original "theft"/early release, but it seems that can work both ways in terms of affecting incentive to finish a project. If the beta works pretty well or at least looks intriguing, it can act as a hook for their target audience. If not, then all the hype probably would have worked vs them and sapped any desire to complete the project if reactions were overly negative.

[mimartin]

C'mon, you did notice the , right?[/Quote] I did, but in this thread if felt it necessary to clarify.

 

why would someone really feel too bad about someone providing a few code fixes for what is essentially a preview?[/Quote]

Personally, I’m not upset about the codes being provided. I was just stating my opinion that I considered it unethical. However, it is far down on my list of things to be upset over or even care about. I do care about my opinion being misrepresented, although that isn’t anything to get upset over either.

[Q]

If not, then all the hype probably would have worked vs them and sapped any desire to complete the project if reactions were overly negative.

That's precisely what happened, IMO. Most people who have played the beta agree that even if completed the mod won't live up to all of the hype. Nothing could, really.

 

I'll put it this way: while some parts of it are 1st-class modding and blend in seamlessly with the rest of the game, others are obviously and rather amateurishly scabbed-on and still others are just downright unnecessary because they add nothing to the story or the game in general and are just modding for the sake of modding.

 

Overall the experience had an effect similar to when Ralphie finally gets his decoder pin and decodes his first message, and I believe that this has served to make people even more angry as the hype and BS surrounding the project continue to build.

 

TSL is a broken game, and unfortunately it will remain broken with or without TSLRP.

[Darth Avlectus]

I realize I'm treading on thin ice here, but this is roughly analogous, and actually similar to ROM hacking ethics. In other words, you cannot release it as your own if you modified another's work. You basically can do it just so long as it never leaves your property or enters public domain. Yet funnier still it's all very legally grey since it is not technically legal in the first place.

 

My personal opinion: I wouldn't touch it, no. You wanna improve the existing beta for your own use? Knock yourselves out.

 

While the license holder may have the legal right (if granted) to actually take any work done by others and release it as their own, I see something wrong with that...somewhere. Ce` le'vie it's reality and people will even get paid.

 

Though I agree that it has taken far longer than perhaps a more ambiguous project would and should. Hopefully, eventually, TG will finish though and I still wish them the best.

[Scatter]

Do I think it is right for someone to take another’s work and distributed it without permission? No

 

Do I think it is right for someone to assist in that distribution by making it work better? No

errrr... isn't that the very definition of a mod? any mod?

 

as a modder you are always taking someone else's work, improving upon it (in your opinion ofc), and then distributing it.

 

this obv. isn't an issue of copyright - although for all the porting is illegal talk around here, it's no more illegal than the actual mods themselves - as TG owns none.

 

as for morality? looking at it strictly dispassionately, how can it be any more 'immoral' than what TG themselves are (supposedly ) doing?