Trooper Discomfort

[darthfergie]

Recently it seems that several reporting outlets have gotten their hands on a playable demo of the trooper class.

 

After reading an interview darth hater had with Jake Neri about the trooper demo I'm kind of perplexed.

 

And to how the Trooper worked in a group, Jake Neri explained: "We talked a little bit so far about the different paths for classes to go down. But what we showed of the Trooper is that he is pretty much a hybrid, range class a DPS class if you want to use the trinity metaphor there."

 

"He would support a Knight," he said. "So a Knight would be up in front, using his sword and doing damage, while the Trooper is standing back, laying down cover, and just doing pure DPS.

 

So the trooper is going to be pure ranged dps...supporting the Knight.

 

One thing I enjoy about WoW is there are multiple tanking classes and multiple healing classes. Each having some separate advantages and disadvantages. To me I saw the Knight of course being an up close and personal tank. But I also saw the Trooper as a tank. I mean why wear all that armor if you're not going be be a tank?

 

I saw the trooper have the option to go DPS, but the spec I was interested in was basically a ranged tank spec. Think about it, in modern battlefields if you had some idiot running out in the middle of no man's land waving a sword they'd get pulverized instantly. So why not have a side of the trooper that lays down covering fire, keeping enemies occupied and focused on them? That kind of seems like the modern "tank" of sorts to me. Someone who will keep the enemy's attention away from other more fragile damage dealers.

 

Instead it sounds like we're going to have some pretty set roles. If you want to tank you have to be a Knight. Seems like it could get boring to me.

 

That's just my concerns right now anyways. We'll see how things turn out.

[RogueJedi86]

DH's Trooper Hands-on also suggests Advanced Classes, which they previously figured would mean 2 sub-classes. So maybe one of the Advanced Classes for Trooper is a ranged DPS covering fire class, and the other is more tankish. There's still room for tanking. Or at least I hope so, since I also have been wanting Troopers to be able to tank.

[Gurges-Ahter]

I think tanking is too much of a staple, and troopers are too ideal to be the tankers to not have it included in the game.

 

Personally I don't really care because I plan on playing mostly solo, so tanking doesn't mean much to me at all.

[darthfergie]

Tanking still matters in solo play...

Since you get companions you can go out and play a tanking class while having a damage dealer backing you up.

[RogueJedi86]

But if your class can tank, that means they can take a lot of hits in solo PvE too. In contrast to "glass cannon" classes that can deal the hurt but die in only a few hits. Tanking classes do get some benefit outside groups.

[Gurges-Ahter]

True. I guess we don't really know how the companions are going to work yet, but it's probably safe to assume that they will help shore up abilities that your chosen class doesn't inherently own.

[darthfergie]

Indeed, they talked about the Sith Inquisitor having a companion who was a big dude with a sword who would get up close and personal with the enemy.

 

I figure you'll get the option of having a companion of your own class, but it will be advantageous to bring along someone to fill in your gaps like KOTOR.

[Gurges-Ahter]

Indeed, they talked about the Sith Inquisitor having a companion who was a big dude with a sword who would get up close and personal with the enemy.

 

I figure you'll get the option of having a companion of your own class, but it will be advantageous to bring along someone to fill in your gaps like KOTOR.

 

I am very interested in finding out how the companion system works. I'm sure it will be customizable though, as you mentioned. Where did you see/read the info about the Sith Inquisitor companion? I probably saw it and didn't notice.

[JediAthos]

I've always believed there is diversity in classes depending on the player behind the toon and their style of play with the abilities and skills given.

 

I believed this in WoW way before there were any adjustments made to allow for class diversity. (i.e. ur a drood u can't tank lolz )

 

So, that said I'm sure that if Bioware gives the trooper the tools you will be able to use them as a tank. If they don't and there's a backlash then I'm sure they will eventually fix it. That's just the way things happen in an MMO. Each class in WoW had their talent points refunded multiple times because of major changes to abilities. I wouldn't be surprised to see something similar happen in TOR's future. I wouldn't expect it right away, but as Bioware tweaks the classes and adjusts class abilities I wouldn't be shocked to see it not just with the Trooper class but with the others as well.

[RogueJedi86]

The info on Inquisitor companions was given last year when the press got a hands-on with Consular and Inquisitor shortly before they announced the classes. I know Inquisitors will have a Dashade companion who is a melee-type with a sword, plus Inquisitors will have their own apprentice, a Kaleesh (Grevious' species) Sith Warrior. Those were only 2 we were told about, but they give us an idea. I'd have to find a link somewhere to DarthHater's hands-on.

[Gurges-Ahter]

Yeah that would be great if you could find a link - for some reason I don't recall seeing that.

[RogueJedi86]

Found it after a quick look at all DH posts tagged for Sith Inquisitor:

http://darthhater.com/2009/12/03/companion-characters/

[Gurges-Ahter]

Awesome - thanks!

 

**EDIT**

 

Back to the original post - I think the link Rogue provided does shed some light on the companion characters providing tanking/healing abilities where your character lacks. From Jake Neri, and some DH insight:

 

We have to make sure companions work and we have to make sure people that don't want to have companions have a fun experience. What we have to do is provide options for you as a player to make sure you can customize your play style the way you want. It is really simple. We talked about it a lot today, but we feel each one of these classes has things they are inherently strong at and the companion should provide a different variation on that game play style

 

...

 

During the interview we realized that BioWare plans on using companion characters to solve the looking for tank/healer problem seen in other MMOs. This should come as good news to anyone who has had a gaming night ruined because of a missing class. This will also allow soloers and small teams to retain a level of autonomy if they wish to play by themselves.

 

I guess my question would then be if we have the option to take control of the companion and let the main character use AI. For example, if you wanted to tank with your companion and let your main character run around behind and attack from range, would you be able to? I think the answer is yes - we saw that type of style in K1 and K2 - so it seems a natural step to allow it here as well.

[True_Avery]

From day one Trooper looked like a mage fused with Paladin sort of class and this doesn't seem to change that theory much. TBH did not think this class was going to be the tank, especially as a ranged/specialty class.

[RogueJedi86]

Paladins can tank though. With all that heavy armor, you seriously would think the guys in flimsy robes would be able to absorb more damage than them? They're the only ones who can use such heavy armor. Seems to me that they should at least be able to off-tank on trash or something.

[JediAthos]

Paladins can tank though. With all that heavy armor, you seriously would think the guys in flimsy robes would be able to absorb more damage than them? They're the only ones who can use such heavy armor. Seems to me that they should at least be able to off-tank on trash or something.

 

If you're looking at it in that regard you would then have to give the Trooper a weapon to be able to fight hand to hand with. (i.e. a vibroblade or something similar)

 

I would essentially compare the Trooper to class to the Storm Troopers and Clone Troopers. You don't really seem them pulling out a melee weapon. It's strictly blaster/sidearm.

[RogueJedi86]

Why would Troopers need a melee weapon? You don't need a melee weapon to tank. You could be a ranged tank. Think outside the box here. This is Star Wars, most foes attack at range with a gun. You could have threat-causing abilities and take all the hits from a foe at range. Think like tanking a turret or a guard droid. Tanks don't have to melee. Now why do you think you HAVE to give a Trooper a melee weapon to tank?

[darthfergie]

Indeed. I see troopers as ranged tanks.

 

It's more of a modern warfare in this instance. It's not WoW. The majority of combatants no longer carry swords and shields. They carry guns. Thus you have to think in a gun oriented way.

 

Throw down covering fire or explosives to get people to pay attention to you. Sure they may be at a disadvantage when something like a jedi comes plowing in at super speed, but even then they should be able to lay down enough firepower to make the jedi think twice about moving forward and not being in full deflect mode.

 

If we end up with the only tanking class in the game being a Melee Jedi class I just won't understand it because it just simply doesn't make sense in today's style of warfare.

 

It's almost like how in early SWG when the main form of transportation was critters and how Creature Handlers were everywhere pitting rancor against rancor. Stop thinking in the traditional RPG mindset and set your sights on the Star Wars universe.

[True_Avery]

If we are tossing aside normal ideas of RPG, then why not toss aside lingo like Tank?

 

I don't even know how that would work, primarily because every class in this game seems to be fit to take care of itself.

 

http://www.swtor.com/info/holonet/classes

 

Literally the only class I can't see basically being Hero awesome is smuggler. The trooper is an elite, advanced fight, then you got spies, and the Jedi (who we know can take care of themselves), and the Bounty Hunter who base their careers on taking care of themselves. You look at WoW, Guild Wars, and so on and you have some pretty clear cut lines between support, tank, cannon, and so on. I don't even really know where to start giving out labels on these 8. I can easily see a party eating through regular people, but bosses are going to be odd. Who and what will bosses be? Sith?

 

If Sith are the case, then the Jedi are now your tanks. If we have to fight a ship, perhaps the ranged. Giant Robot? Probably a mix. If I had to guess, I'd say that who Tanks and who doesn't is really going to depend on who and what you are fighting, as since the only confirmed level bosses are Sith then it makes sense that the Jedi would be the ones in there fighting. As for things like ships, turrents, and so on then sure the overwhelmingly ranged class list would definitely be useful.

 

If we end up with the only tanking class in the game being a Melee Jedi class I just won't understand it because it just simply doesn't make sense in today's style of warfare.

They are clothed out wizards with physics defying laser swords that can crush your brain with their mind and cut your bullets out of the air before you know you'd even shoot them. By all means, they shouldn't exist nor work

 

Ranged vs ranged tanking I can see the Trooper/Bounty Hunter being your tank. The idea of using your trooper to tank Sith, however, doesn't seem like the most valid when there is a lightsaber combat system built into the game for that exact purpose.

 

Here, just let me turn this over in your head for a moment:

 

The Trooper shares the space of the Bounty Hunter. While it would make some sense for the Trooper to be down there laying down fire, it doesn't so much for the Bounty Hunter. The Bounty Hunter, more than any class in this game, seem to be built as a ranged DPS. They are assassins by trade, not known for up front melee fighting, and so on. To have a Trooper tanking seems right, but switch it over to the Sith and the Bounty Hunter seems like a rather bad choice.

 

Since most of this game looks like it will be ranged I wouldn't worry too much, but when a Sith master drops in you're probably going to be wishing you had a Jedi to keep from being mauled.

[RogueJedi86]

Why even have bosses that are always random huge guys? Why can't a boss fight just be an enemy army you have to fight? Battles aren't as easy as Boss Fight in SW. Battle of Geonosis, Battle of Kashyyyk, Battle of Hoth, Battle of Endor, no single end-boss for those battles.

 

That's why I sometimes like to hope that TOR won't use tanks or heals, just crowd control that temporarily take out half the enemy's side while you kill the others. So far it seems that every class has some form of CC/Mezzing(groin shot, kneecap shot, Sleep Darts, Force Wave, etc.). If every class can CC, then making CC the key thing for running dungeons would mean no one would be forced into a role unless they wanted to. A situation where the only people CCing are those who happen to be better at it than everyone else. It'd be a bit of a focus on skill, but it wouldn't exclude anyone else.

 

I'm only entertaining the thought of Tanks for the sake of this discussion, and the off-chance that BioWare will fall back on using the Trinity that EVERYONE else uses in their MMOs.

[JediAthos]

Why would Troopers need a melee weapon? You don't need a melee weapon to tank. You could be a ranged tank. Think outside the box here. This is Star Wars, most foes attack at range with a gun. You could have threat-causing abilities and take all the hits from a foe at range. Think like tanking a turret or a guard droid. Tanks don't have to melee. Now why do you think you HAVE to give a Trooper a melee weapon to tank?

 

I was trying to make the connection in the comparison you were making to paladins. That and I was thinking, as has been mentioned, of encounters with Sith present that would be in your face unless of course you have a Jedi to draw them off.

 

I am in no way saying that a trooper could not be a tank...as I said I like to believe that diversity in classes is possible provided the skills and abilities are provided by Bioware.

 

Truthfully, the more I think about it, the more I realize the discussion has little purpose beyond speculation until we know more about the full set of abilities that Bioware is planning for each class.

 

*edit* having just reviewed the holonet videos on the trooper it does seem like their abilities are focused on damage...but I suppose we'll have to wait and see.

[RogueJedi86]

I've thought of them as Paladins before, just ranged paladins. I believe one of the earliest dev talks about Trooper mentioned that they have the ability to buff their squadmates too, to help their Trooper squad in battle. All the tanking stuff has just been wistful thinking on my part. I'd hate to be the guy in the heaviest armor in the game, only to find out the only person who can take a lot of hits is actually the guy wearing threadbare cloth robes. Just seems counterintuitive and skewed towards Jedi supremacy. We already know Jedi can DPS and heal, do we really need them to be the tanks too? If they can do all 3, why would anyone roll anything else? At least we know Troopers can't heal and Smugglers can't tank, so those 2 aren't at risk of taking all the roles. I like the idea of Trooper fitting a role of tank+dps+a few buffs.

[darthfergie]

Bounty Hunter I have no problem being a tank to be honest.

BHs like Mandos go toe to toe with Jedi using their extra gadgets to even the fight. Books are full of highly skilled assassins/BHs going toe to toe with Jedi and holding their own in about 1 out of 10 fights. heh.

 

BHs also have flamethrower which can keep melee at range as well as a jetpack to do so too.

 

The trooper was the only one that I was semi doubting toe to toe capabilities. But even then they could have weapons to drive back melee.

 

Dunno. It'd be hard mechanics to implement I'm sure. But all that armor is for what exactly if not to be a hulking monster on the battlefield?

 

Yeah...putting crazy melee into the equation has made things a little out of whack. I guess I just need to get used to the fact there are craptons of Jedi.