Some bad feelings

[True_Avery]

Three separate incidences of bricks being thrown through Democrat windows, and other Vandalism:

http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/03/22/pols.dems.vandalized/

http://primebuzz.kcstar.com/?q=node/21799

http://www.montgomeryadvertiser.com/article/20100323/NEWS01/3230333/Pinson-man-urges-protesters-to-throw-bricks

 

Rep. Tom Perriello’s (D-Va.) brother's house was posted on Tea Party members blogs, thinking it was the Reps house. People arrived to protest, and the brother's gas line was cut. The FBI has now gotten involved to assess:

http://www.salon.com/news/politics/war_room/2010/03/24/perriello

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0310/34934.html

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2010/03/perriello_gas_line_tea_party.html

http://www.nbc29.com/Global/story.asp?S=12196736

 

There are conflicting reports on Tea Party members at a rally after the Bill passed using racial and homophobic slurs, and even one man supposedly spitting on Rep. John Lewis. The reports are conflicting, as a man was taken to the side and cuffed, but then released. Both sides, obviously, are clinging to their own story. The recipients claim it happened, and the Tea Party claim is was all staged or completely untrue. Some leaders of the Tea Party and GOP seem to believe it was isolated, some believe it never happened:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/03/21/tea-party-leader-condemns-racial-slurs-hurled-black-lawmakers/

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,589776,00.html

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/michael-steele-tea-party-idiots/

http://prescriptions.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/03/20/spitting-and-slurs-directed-at-lawmakers/

http://thinkprogress.org/2010/03/21/nunes-tea-part/

 

I could go on but I'll stay with that. It should be kept in mind that all sides are really heated right now and, at the moment, nothing should be taken on word alone but, even the fact these allegations are being thrown by both sides is... unnerving.

 

I think we all are familiar with the BS as of late. The Tea Party is being painted as racist, homophobic protesters on the verge of riot. The Democrats in congress are being painted as, well, mini Stalins with the express purpose to destroy America. Both Fox and MSNBC are enjoying their manipulation and spin of fact for their own Agenda, and those for and against are getting more riled up as this thing goes on.

 

I don't like this. I don't like that pundits are allowed to go onto television in front of possibly millions of people and tell them they will die if this does, or does not pass. A lot of blogs, protests, etc have been flagged and watched as potential violent hotspots, and this even rings back to the post I made a little while back about the Radio show host arrested for inciting violence against judges and congressmen.

 

This is nowhere close to the Vietnam protesting and riots, but I'm still getting unnerved at the split that is continuing to grow. We're only about a year and a half into a 4 year journey and things are starting to boil to uncomfortable levels. This forum especially underwent a pretty major series of changes in the last year and, I think, many members have gotten a lot more spiteful and mean than ever before.

 

Am I the only one getting uncomfortable about the political air? I'm not talking about the bill itself, legislature, or whatever but rather the attitude of the media, the people, and so on. It is an extreme and unlikely, but I really hope someone doesn't take a literal shot at someone else.

[jrrtoken]

Nothing is more American than violent anarchy!

[Ping]

The Tea baggers have lost the right to be called humans in my eyes. Crack down on them, and crack down on what ever is manipulating them into doing it - at this point, I don't care if it violates the First Amendment, but what they're doing is against the law. Once you break the law, you're a criminal, and criminals should be behind bars.

[Totenkopf]

Nothing is more American than violent anarchy!

 

Well, violence, anyway.......

 

@True--yeah, but pre-election there were a number of people on your side of the political aisle who were both spiteful and underhanded in dealing with everything. I also don't remember, when the subject came up prior to that, people not bitching about the previous administration in nasty ways. I guess you're unnerved that the "losers" in the last cycle don't just roll over and accept what we've been stuck with. Still, with almost few to no reservations, I figure if all of us were in a room together, few if any would resort to anything stronger than words vs one another. And you know how cheap those usually are. It's still a relatively free country and American politics have always been rambunctious.

 

@Ping--

[mimartin]

This is my problem with this country at the moment; we label an entire group by what a few individuals do. To heck with punishing the guilty party let’s hang them all.

 

It doesn’t help that large parts of this country (both sides) believe everything their particular talking head states without any semblance of intelligent rational thought. Liberals are all socialist making them evil and their only goal is to bring down this nation. Conservatives are greedy racist that only want to take your money. When in truth both sides are doing what they think is right for this country, they just have very different ideas of how to do it. Like most things in this country’s history the real truth on what needs to be done is somewhere in the middle where most American already are. Too bad those in charge and the fridge extremist get the press coverage and the radio and television shows.

[Web Rider]

I've said this a few times, but I'm tired of arguing with people like this.

 

Kill them all.

[Ping]

I've said this a few times, but I'm tired of arguing with people like this.

 

Kill them all.

 

QFT. It's people like these who hinder society.

[Jae Onasi]

Those who are committing crimes should be brought to justice. I don't care what party it is. Harassing members of Congress or their family members at their homes is just plain wrong. There are far more constructive ways to interact with your Congressmen/women and Senators, like phone calls, emails, visiting their offices. These people are not perfect, we know that. Anyone who's heard me speak about Pelosi knows what I think of her. Some of her idiot comments are a great source of amusement for me. However, I would NEVER dream of doing something like going to her house, cutting her gas line, or any act of violence. In fact, if I ever got to meet her, I'd shake her hand and express my gratitude for the hard work she did on the health care bill. Then I might make a comment on what I think of some of the other policies she's working on.

 

The fact is, no matter how much we disagree with the Congress, the people who are there have to do a lot of crap. It's not all society parties with Washington insiders and junketts to Tahiti. It's a stressful, fishbowl life where your every movement, word, outfit, and eyebrow lift is analyzed to the nth degree, even if you never meant anything by it. I do not envy anyone in that position.

 

As familiarity in our culture has increased and respect for the office has decreased, it's become more and more acceptable to even consider harming these people. I find this distressing. I don't agree with everything these people do or say. I'm appalled at some of the dirty politics that goes on, on both sides of the aisle. However, I'm appalled even more that people would consider harming or killing these people and their families.

 

Edit: The irony of 'kill them all' for their violence is not lost on me. Unfortunately.

[True_Avery]

@Ping, Web Rider, PastramiX

Wha? Did you all not even read my post?

 

Thank you Jae and Mimartin for at least trying.

 

Yeah, but pre-election there were a number of people on your side of the political aisle who were both spiteful and underhanded in dealing with everything.

Thanks for issuing me a side? Did not realize I was on one or ever stated I was apart of any party.

 

I'd also ask you to reread my post because I pointed out that "both" "sides" are at fault here. The current news right now is those (which are suspect), but if it makes you feel better I'd be more than willing to mention the rocks being thrown at Bush's limo. It just isn't entirely relevant right now.

 

I also don't remember, when the subject came up prior to that, people not bitching about the previous administration in nasty ways.

"Both Fox and MSNBC are enjoying their manipulation and spin of fact for their own Agenda, and those for and against are getting more riled up as this thing goes on."

 

I am unnerved by the further splitting of the people in general.

 

I guess you're unnerved that the "losers" in the last cycle don't just roll over and accept what we've been stuck with.

Please don't put words in my mouth. I did not say that, insinuate it, or hint at it. If you re-read my actual post, then you'll see my point was that allegations like that are why I'm unnerved.

[Web Rider]

@Ping, Web Rider, PastramiX

Wha? Did you all not even read my post?

 

Yes, and I've tried reasoning with people like this, I've tried giving them more information, I've tried telling them things that are contrary to their viewpoint but based in facts instead of hysteria. The end result I've had has been them turning on me claiming I'm trying to destroy their morals or their faith or whatever.

 

These are the people that start terrorist groups, it's a little heckling here and there, then it's an assault, maybe a murder, and then a bombing, and then armed militant groups. You want to eliminate these problems NOW before they get worse.

[Totenkopf]

This forum especially underwent a pretty major series of changes in the last year and, I think, many members have gotten a lot more spiteful and mean than ever before.

 

Both Fox and MSNBC are enjoying their manipulation and spin of fact for their own Agenda, and those for and against are getting more riled up as this thing goes on.

 

This is mainly what caught my eye and the reason for responding in the manner that I did. And though I may see you as being in "that camp" (most of your views often trend left), you're not alone in that and were not singled out as being a trouble maker, merely that a lot of the nastiness came from people on that side. I did read your OP and never stated you belonged to a particular political party. For all I know, you're a republican or socialist or even a democrat. Perhaps something else (don't know if you actually even vote). Prior to the election there was a fair amount of nastiness in LF on political and social or philosophical issues, though much of it was in the Senate, as KC is a fairly recent addition. I would only add that your above statement about manipulation would have made more sense if you'd indicted the other networks and big newspapers (lest you figure no one's really paying attention to them anymore and that they're now irrelevant). Question is, what exactly do you expect people to do when the govt no longer listens to them? Ashame the people in DC are as concerned as you are.

 

 

 

These are the people that start terrorist groups, it's a little heckling here and there, then it's an assault, maybe a murder, and then a bombing, and then armed militant groups. You want to eliminate these problems NOW before they get worse.

 

Yeah, like the SDS and the Black Panthers, ELF, ALF, etc.... Funny how most of that kind of political violence in the US has tended to come from the left over the last 50 or so years.

[mimartin]

Yeah, like the SDS and the Black Panthers, ELF, ALF, etc.... Funny how most of that kind of political violence in the US has tended to come from the left over the last 50 or so years.

Which one of these groups murder doctors or bomb medical clinics? Both sides’ nuts have blood on their hands.

 

Plus leave ALF out of the discussion, I happen to like him.

 

last 50 or so years.

[greggomonkey]

Being that I live in Canada I can't see what the problem people have is. We have universal health care that's similar to yours and there isn't any anger about it up here, fact is that Complaining is idiotic, nay protesting is idiotic. The only thing you can achieve would be getting arrested.

[Web Rider]

Yeah, like the SDS and the Black Panthers, ELF, ALF, etc.... Funny how most of that kind of political violence in the US has tended to come from the left over the last 50 or so years.

 

Wouldn't happen to be because in the last 50 years we were living in a morally-restrictive, racist, wantonly destructive society? Of ya know, random oppression of minorities by white majorities(does not include irish, poles, slavs, ect.), which included assault, murder, and vandalism. Couldn't be because we could barely define worker rights, much less give any rights to people of the wrong color.

 

Yeah, violence caused by, lets say it together: Conservative-Right institutionalized violence.

 

So who were you saying started it?

 

Being that I live in Canada I can't see what the problem people have is. We have universal health care that's similar to yours and there isn't any anger about it up here, fact is that Complaining is idiotic, nay protesting is idiotic. The only thing you can achieve would be getting arrested.

No you don't.

 

This is a common misconception about this healthcare bill. Though this bill contains some important healthcare reform, it MANDATES the buying of private healthcare. It does not provide a government-run, publicly-funded so called "public option". Which is what Canada and a great deal of Europe has.

[Ping]

@Ping, Web Rider, PastramiX

Wha? Did you all not even read my post?

 

I did, actually, but I'm with Web Rider. People aren't going to be reasonable, so they decide to do drastic things to get what they want. They started it with volence, they should be punished through violence.

[Totenkopf]

Play Nice! ~ mimartin

 

I guess every violent group has its enablers, huh WR..... You're whining that you're somehow worried that all those "right-wingers" and the violence they're supposedly up to and conveniently ignore that that most of the "anarchic" violence has come from the left. Gee, amazing that more women haven't openly rebelled under all their "chafing".

 

 

This is a common misconception about this healthcare bill. Though this bill contains some important healthcare reform, it MANDATES the buying of private healthcare. It does not provide a government-run, publicly-funded so called "public option". Which is what Canada and a great deal of Europe has.

 

Pretty selective interpretation there. This is only the beginning. Many of the progressives have openly admitted that what they are moving toward with this bill is in fact public option. If, as you infer elsewhere, govt never gets smaller, that is exactly where this law is headed. Unless it gets largely repealed in the near future, that's what we'll end up with. This is just, as Barney Frank has said, the camel's nose in the tent. And it does a lot more than just mandate people carry private hc insurance. Also a gross misrepresentation of what the bill is.

 

@mimartin--yeah, Alf was kinda funny. ALF not as much fun... Frankly, if conservatives were as scary as the boogeyman some of you guys are trying to paint up, the last 40-50 years would look much different. If the "right" were as bad as people like WR are implying there'd have been a lot of "right-wing violence" over the last 50 or so years of left-wing deconstruction of this country. Besides, it only takes a small number of committed radicals to cause a LOT of violence or to incite it. Don't really see too many "right-wingers" right now advocating civil war or large scale civil disturbances but rather gearing up for voting many of those in office that voted for this bill out of a job. Given how close the vote turned out to be, I'm merely wondering how much louder and abrasive the public grinding and gnashing of teeth by libs would have been had it gone the other way. Given the two elections they lost in '00 and '04, I'm going to guess it wouldn't have been pretty.

 

Still, I guess what makes part of this country great is that we can still disagree somewhat vehemently w/o often burning sections of cities down in fits of pique over perceived wrongs. As I said, while I don't agree w/a lot of what you appear to support, neither am I looking to collect your scalp.

-------------------------------------------------

...People aren't going to be reasonable, so they decide to do drastic things to get what they want. They started it with volence, they should be punished through violence.

 

Ah, so much for "the rule of law" (" I don't care if it violates the First Amendment,"). Eager to trample on people's rights to get your way are you? I guess that makes you so much better than the "evil" conservatives you deride so frequently lately. But, as long as you're in a headlong rush to ignore "due process", I guess you'll have no problem w/just using violence to punish all those terrorists at Gitmo or even the violent perps that populate US jails. I mean, afterall, they started it with their own violence, eh....

 

@TA--I guess you opened a big 'ole can of worms here, huh?

[mimartin]

Frankly, if conservatives were as scary as the boogeyman some of you guys are trying to paint up, the last 40-50 years would look much different. [/Quote]Which guys are portraying them as a boogeyman? Since this was part was address to me, I will assume you mean me. Where did I say Conservatives were scary as the bogeyman? Where have I even implied it?

Which one of these groups murder doctors or bomb medical clinics? Both sides’ nuts have blood on their hands. [/Quote] This is what I stated. Yes, some liberals in the 60s & 70s did use violence to further their cause for equal rights and against the war, but even more dealt with the same issues in a nonviolent way. Just as some in the 80s, 90s, and 00s from the far right have used violence to further their cause against abortion, but many more have tackled the same issue in a nonviolent way. That does not make either group violent, that does make some of their extremes violent, but go on blame us all for what a few nuts do if you want.

[True_Avery]

@TA--I guess you opened a big 'ole can of worms here, huh?

Its OK, its an excellent look at human sociology and I feel vindicated on my original point.

 

Thanks everyone.

[Totenkopf]

I didn't "accuse" you specifically of anything in that regard. Nor did I paint everyone on either side as raging nihilists looking to destroy their own societies. If you'd like, I can redact "you" from "you guys", as that seems to be the hangup here. Still, far as I recall, which "group" was bombing the abortion clinics or even calling for it? Those tended to be isolated wackos whose "handiwork" was condemned by "pro-life" groups. I agree that it's usually a small corp of dedicated people (jihadists, revolutionaries, etc...) that often cause large headaches for everyone else. Unfortunately, the groups I listed weren't just an isolated individual or two but a group....regardless of how fringe... that was openly calling for violence (and have yet to renounce it) in the service of their goals. What we have now are media types and people in general trying to portray a group of concerned citizens as ALL violent (actual or borderline) malcontents b/c they oppose the goals of this current administration and Congress.

[Ping]

Eager to trample on people's rights to get your way are you?

 

If they started it, they deserved to be punished. I'm going for the "eye for an eye" policy.

[Liverandbacon]

Well Avery, it seems that the majority of the posts in this thread back up your worry. People jumping to gut reactions of "kill 'em all" or my personal favorite:

The Tea baggers have lost the right to be called humans in my eyes. ... I don't care if it violates the First Amendment...

I hate to reprove Godwin's law, but seriously...

 

As is evidenced by a number of these posts, a large portion of both the left and right have become kneejerk radicals. People listen to one side's spin, and believe it wholeheartedly, while denouncing the other side's supporters for listening to that side's spin. Left-wingers are clearly all Communist Terrorist-hugging Destroyers of America, and Right-wingers are all Gun-slinging Redneck Fascist Homophobic Evangelist Crusaders.

 

This isn't necessarily the people's fault though, considering all ideals of journalistic integrity went out the window decades ago, and all that's really available is spin. Though it's hard to see why some people can't realize that advocating breaking some of our most important laws (the Constitution) in order to crack down on people breaking small laws (petty vandalism) seems incredibly dumb. If this seems harsh, it's because I hate when either side advocates violating the Constitution. I promised to protect it against enemies both foreign and domestic, and I REALLY meant it.

 

At this point, I'm sick of politics, politicians, and pundits in general. I think that the US's two party system (sadly that is what it has become), by its very nature encourages extremism, and is a large part of the problem. Unfortunately, the system is so set in stone at this point that it would take major upheaval to change it, upheaval which could do far more harm than good.

 

Edit: Sorry about that. Feelings got the better of me. Self censorship shall be a bit stricter in the future.

[Totenkopf]

If they started it, they deserved to be punished. I'm going for the "eye for an eye" policy.

 

That would certainly make for a more robust and sensible foreign policy approach than what we've currently got. Still, guess it's a good thing the legal system can't be so heavy handed. So.....should we fire a shot at the guy's house who fired on Rep Cantor's office?

[Samuel Dravis]

So.....should we fire a shot at the guy's house who fired on Rep Cantor's office?

I heard about that recently also. I am not sure I understand a person who would fire a gun when legal options were still available, and certainly not like that. Not that I understand any terrorists...

 

I agree with Avery insofar as I see no reason to become as emotionally invested as some people have in these developments. Frankly, we aren't at the point where people are being disenfranchised and violence is necessary. Those who do "take up arms" (and not just guns, mind) are betraying the very principles they usually profess to be protecting.

[Totenkopf]

Not much too really understand about terrorists. They have an agenda, generally speaking, and don't blanch at the use of violence to get their way. Now, understanding their attraction, and depth of commitment, to a particular cause is something else entirely.

 

I would agree that firing on people or threatening their lives is extremely premature and ill-considered at this juncture. Even though either side feels it has "just cause" to feel strongly, there is still the court system which will have to deal w/many issues related to this before we truly know for certain what the end result will look like. And then there are still the upcoming elections as well, both in Nov and 2012. I'm hoping (perhaps forlornly) it gets overturned and that they have to go back to the drawing board and come up with something much more practical and transparently decided.

[Ping]

That would certainly make for a more robust and sensible foreign policy approach than what we've currently got. Still, guess it's a good thing the legal system can't be so heavy handed. So.....should we fire a shot at the guy's house who fired on Rep Cantor's office?

 

Actually, yes. He/She committed the crime, therefore, justice should be served through any means neccessary.