Arizona SB 1070. The "Illegal Immigrant law"

[Tommycat]

I wonder if he might think differently if someone broke into his house. Would he kick them out, and or have them arrested? or would he just relabel that person family. *sigh* It seems that his border policy is not change, but more of the same empty rhetoric. Not that I'm surprised. It's just ridiculous that they are using taxpayer money to go after people enforcing the laws...

[Q]

Ridiculous, yes, but hardly surprising. They didn't earn the money, so why should they care if they're wasting it?

[mimartin]

It's just ridiculous that they are using taxpayer money to go after people enforcing the laws...

It is ridiculous, imagine how secure our border could be if after 9/11 we would have decided to actually protect our borders (both of them, after all some of the Terrorist on 9/11 crossed from Canada, not Mexico) and went after those that mastermind of the attack instead of going into Iraq. Neither party has any interest in doing anything about illegal aliens. Had they something would have already been done. Now one side has decided to use this as an election issue with a pretty good idea that a naïve America will fall for its rhetoric. However, once the election is over the issue will go the same way as the Contract with American did. Nice rhetoric, no substance. Lucky for them the American public has a short attention span and a penance for buying into the snake oil being sold to them.

[Q]

^...by both parties.

[mimartin]

^...by both parties.

 

That is why I said both, however, I do think that the Republicans are better at selling the snake oil. I've even bought into it more than once. Still can't believe I fell for compassionate conservative.

[Q]

Yup, "compassionate conservative" is right up there with "hope and change".

[Totenkopf]

Well, look at the bright side, mimartin. If the Republicans (who don't have enough votes in Congress to stop the dems from pretty much what they want to do right now) get sufficient traction on this issue and do nothing if they have the #s to actually accomplish anything, they'll have signed their own warrant for the forseeable future as well. Seems to me that this administration and its H2O carriers in the media are trying to use the crisis in the gulf and along the borders to foist poor policy choices on America. Anytime someone tells you that "of course border security is important, but...", you can be sure that everything preceding but is merely bs. Remember, the pulse of America was anti-Obamacare (still is), but it largely passed. If pelosi and co. wanted to force "immigration reform" down America's throat, they still have the #s (there may only be 59 dems in the senate, but you can always count on a few reps there to betray their party). Obama is wrong when he says he mathematically needs reps (except for anything other than political cover). They've already proven that several times in the past few months alone.

 

Problem w/the border issue is that both parties hope to cull future voters from the herds of illegals (dems have a definite advantage there) and both have benefactors that profit directly from cheap labor. It's not a case of one party wants votes, the other "slaves". We need to wake up before they (dems/reps) ultimately give away the store.

[mimartin]

Yea, you hit the nail on the head, the polls on health care reform are exactly the type of thing I’m talking about. Look at the poll numbers before and after the snake oil salesmen started lying about death panels and such. Add nothing of substance to the debate, no alternatives, just frighten the American people with half truths and outright lies. Sounds like what I want from my government.

 

Neither party cares about the future votes of these illegals, they do nothing because the ones that contribute the money, also hire these illegals at a cheaper rate than they can American citizens.

[Totenkopf]

Actually, that's not entirely true. Money is necessary to run a campaign, but they still have to get the vote out. If you don't think either party is looking to swell their voter rolls w/all those illegals-come-citizens via amnesty, you're fooling yourself. On top of which are the calculations about how to keep the current hispanic voting block (or as much as they can muster) in their respective camps.

 

As to the whole death panel thing, that was not beyond the pale(in ). The one thing that's going to make health care (as well as medicare and SS) costs continue to swell is that older people are living longer and require expensive care. One way for the govt to control that is to deny them (like insurance companies.....but the govt decision will be unappealable) treatment that's deemed too expensive, but which may be the only thing that keeps them from dying or experiencing negative quality of life. As to lies revolving around healthcare, the supporters of Obamacare have told a bunch of their own. Many revolving around costs and ability to keep your current insurance/doctors. The other thing is that the opponents of Obamacare did offer alternatives, but were drowned out/ignored by the media and the dishonest mantra that the reps et al offered nothing. But this is all material for a different thread.

[Tommycat]

It is ridiculous, imagine how secure our border could be if after 9/11 we would have decided to actually protect our borders (both of them, after all some of the Terrorist on 9/11 crossed from Canada, not Mexico) and went after those that mastermind of the attack instead of going into Iraq. Neither party has any interest in doing anything about illegal aliens. Had they something would have already been done. Now one side has decided to use this as an election issue with a pretty good idea that a naïve America will fall for its rhetoric. However, once the election is over the issue will go the same way as the Contract with American did. Nice rhetoric, no substance. Lucky for them the American public has a short attention span and a penance for buying into the snake oil being sold to them.

To the rest of the nation, immigration is a partisan thing. In AZ it is about REAL safety concerns. Somehow once it leaves where the real problem is it becomes mixed in with politics even though it isn't so much political here in the state. Sure those outside the state pick up on it along party lines.

 

And I want to know who the heck Obama was talking to. The head of the border patrol union in Tucson certainly doesn't think that having police officers as a force multiplier is a bad idea. the 287(g) program was set up specifically to allow this. Of course the interesting thing is that the law suit filed was something like 24 pages... THE LAW SUIT FILING HAS MORE PAGES IN IT THAN THE LAW???

 

Of course, at least NOW they have read it...

[mimartin]

To the rest of the nation, immigration is a partisan thing. In AZ it is about REAL safety concerns.

Yes, Arizona is in it on little bubble and other border state such as Texas, New Mexico and California don't have that same concern.

[DarthJacen]

Okay, for the record, I completely agree with SB-1070. I live in Phoenix, AZ and see the problem every day. Arizona is on the front line in the Drug War and the cartels love our state because of the flat fenceless land border that can be easily crossed on their way to the nearest border towns and cities. Former News Talk 92.3 KTAR talk show host Darrell Ankarlo actually walked across the border from Mexico with everybody listening. http://www.onenewsnow.com/Security/Default.aspx?id=152490

[Totenkopf]

The biggest BS thing about the whole debate is the intentional muddying of the issue by trying to conflate immigrant w/illegal immigrant in a desperate and unseemly attempt to label anyone against illegals as racist and mindlessly nativist. Anytime I see a defender of "comprehensive immigration reform" (which they never clearly define) in print or on air, they always try to take this tack. Whether it's aholes like Pete Stark of CA calling Minutemen murders and behaving in a condescending, high-handed manner at a public forum or someone from La Raza trying to downplay the border security issue on emotional terms of how (illegal) immigrants only want a better life and merely do things Americans won't (a lie), proponents of illegal immigration "comprehensive amnesty" all peddle the same divisive crap. Americans have to be racist to oppose their agenda. Judging from much of America's support for measures like 1070, most of us seem to see through that ruse.

[mimartin]

Americans have to be racist to oppose their agenda. Judging from much of America's support for measures like 1070, most of us seem to see through that ruse.

I support border security, but I have yet to see a plan by either party or any state that really address the idea of border security. The ruse here is to make people feel safer, but in reality until we close our borders (both borders) off to track who is coming and going from our county then all we are doing is putting a band-aid on a severed leg. Asking someone once they are in this country for proof of citizenship based on an Police Officers “feeling” is all fine and dandy if that person that came here for a better life, but it most likely will only get the officer dead if it someone with more criminal pursuits in mind.

 

As far as I’m concern if someone came here illegally then they are criminals and should be deported. Most likely they will miss work Monday, but should be back at work on time by Tuesday.

[Totenkopf]

I support border security, but I have yet to see a plan by either party or any state that really address the idea of border security. The ruse here is to make people feel safer, but in reality until we close our borders (both borders) off to track who is coming and going from our county then all we are doing is putting a band-aid on a severed leg. Asking someone once they are in this country for proof of citizenship based on an Police Officers “feeling” is all fine and dandy if that person that came here for a better life, but it most likely will only get the officer dead if it someone with more criminal pursuits in mind.

 

As far as I’m concern if someone came here illegally then they are criminals and should be deported. Most likely they will miss work Monday, but should be back at work on time by Tuesday.

 

I agree that criminals, legally here or otherwise, are always a threat to law enforcement. Doesn't mean they shouldn't be pursued. As to your last two comments, I agree. As things are now, that probably happens anyway.

[mimartin]

I agree that criminals, legally here or otherwise, are always a threat to law enforcement.

I was speaking along the lines or the drug cartel and the terrorist. I would much rather keep someone with military style weapons or a possible dirty bomb from getting in to this country than have law enforcement officers try to stop them within a major urban area.

 

If you believe FoxNews, then sometimes the drug cartel and the terrorist are the same people.

 

If you a problem with FoxNews, then try the Houston Chronicle here, warning it is about as fair and balanced as FoxNews. Just like most Texas papers.

[DarthJacen]

The drug cartels have their own problems, right now, thankfully, due to Mexico's own war against them.

[Totenkopf]

I was speaking along the lines or the drug cartel and the terrorist. I would much rather keep someone with military style weapons or a possible dirty bomb from getting in to this country than have law enforcement officers try to stop them within a major urban area.

 

Yeah, I figured you meant something more than your garden variety thug w/ a chip on his shoulder (though they can be every bit as dangerous to the cop making the stop). Frankly, though, I'd hope that the govt would have enough intelligence assests in place to keep from getting caught off guard by something like that. I think the states would be happy to play junior partner if the feds actually took the job of border security seriously.

 

As to the Zetas, they are terrorists as well as a drug cartel. Fortunately, given their level of training by the US (and probably others), their terror is mostly domestic in scope and intent.

[Tommycat]

Yes, Arizona is in it on little bubble and other border state such as Texas, New Mexico and California don't have that same concern.

For someone who doesn't like when people put words in his mouth, you sure put some in mine. Of course to other border states illegal immigration is a problem, they just haven't done anything as bold as 1070 yet. Hence why I said AZ.

But lets tackle these one at a time.

 

I grew up in Texas, and yes they have an immigration problem. However the border between Texas and Mexico, while very long, has a natural barrier. You can't just drive a van across anywhere along the border. You have "choke points" through which vehicle traffic MUST be funneled.

 

New Mexico: The area where they can cross is fairly narrow. And of course the portion of the Rio Grande that extends past the tip of Texas again helps funnel traffic.

 

California: They of all places should understand. But they've taken the partisan route. Because Obama derides it, they automatically dislike it. But then maybe it's because they have the largest contingent of border patrol. and a large canal right near the border. Or maybe it's because their illegal population is so high that they actually influence politics there.

 

I am by no means saying that other states don't have an immigration problem. Just that ours specifically needed to do something. Of course now that we have, other states are looking at doing the same. Mostly along party lines though.

[mimartin]

For someone who doesn't like when people put words in his mouth, you sure put some in mine.

Nope, I only commented on what you wrote.

 

To the rest of the nation, immigration is a partisan thing. In AZ it is about REAL safety concerns.

I only saw AZ in there, so I figured Texas, New Mexico and California were lumped into with the "rest of the nation." Silly me.

 

 

The border between Mexico and the United States is 1,951 miles, 1254 miles of that is Mexico-Texas border. Yes, the border is protected by the natural barrier of the Rio Grande; however it is by no means anymore of a deterrent to keep people out of the United State than a desert. I wouldn’t say Texas’ problems with illegal aliens are greater than other border states, but it isn’t any less of a problem either.

 

Of course, right now the Rio Grande is a pretty good deterrent with all the rain we have had in Texas. However, hopefully we don’t have all this tropical weather year round.

[Jae Onasi]

The solution, if AZ wants to pursue this law, is to apply it to everyone who gets stopped. If everyone has to prove citizenship, then there are no grounds for discrimination. Illegal immigration is by no means limited to just Mexicans.

[Totenkopf]

The solution, if AZ wants to pursue this law, is to apply it to everyone who gets stopped. If everyone has to prove citizenship, then there are no grounds for discrimination. Illegal immigration is by no means limited to just Mexicans.

 

That certainly really shouldn't be a problem in the case of traffic offenses, where ID checking is standard OP. Even got stopped on my own property once in my teens, and we didn't live along the border either. When I respectfully told the officer that he could check with my parents as to my ID, he called me a smartass. Problem with the objections to the AZ law is that while AZ cops need to jump through a bunch of legal hoops to establish ID in a questionable situation, the feds can actually do what BO disingenuously suggested w/re to the ice cream shop. If someone from ICE or some other fed agency wishes "to see your papers", he or she has much wider latitude to legally make that judgement call.

[DarthJacen]

ICE can't do it alone, that's why they need the help of local law enforcement to really put a dent in this, once the illegal is in custody he can be extradited to ICE, so they can do the rest.

[Tommycat]

@mimartin: The rest of the nation has made this more of a partisan thing. AZ the support for increasing border protection crosses party lines.

 

The desert isn't much of a deterrent when you're in a vehicle. I suppose the Rio Grande could just be crossed with boats, but what about the illegal drug trade. But I'm not going to say which has it worse, because Texas has that whole big Gulf of Mexico that can also be used. AZ has the second largest border with Mexico, and no significant barrier. Heck they even installed water stations for illegals so they wouldn't die out there.

 

@DarthJacen: Yup that's why officials within Border Patrol and ICE had pushed for 287g(I think that's the one, I could be wrong) which allowed for local officers to help enforce immigration. Sheriff Joe sent his men to the course(4 week course from ICE) so they would know how to handle it. Oh that's right... It has already been established that local law enforcement CAN enforce border security. That's been on the books since 96. OOPS! Guess the fed forgot about that.

[mimartin]

Where I hunt, you can drive across the Rio Grande in a Jeep or a 4 wheel drive. Don't know about the entire 1254 miles, but the parts I've seen are no deeper waist high to a few inches.