Everybody Loves Star Wars

[ThunderPeel2001]

31 minutes ago, BaronGrackle said:

I find this explanation ridiculous.

 

Everything is ridiculous in Star Wars, though:

 

My phone can talk English, so why can't R2D2?

 

Why did didn't they change Luke's last name if he was supposed to be in hiding from his father... Anakin Skywalker? And why hide him with relatives??

 

And why does Obi-Wan, who fought endless Sith lords not know that "Darth" is a title, and keep using it as a first name?

 

And why didn't Darth Vader sense that Leia was his daughter while he was torturing her to get the location of the rebel base out of her?

 

Amongst all that, I personally don't find Rey learning Wookieish to be so absurd. The galaxy was an absurd place a long time ago...

Edited September 11, 2022 by ThunderPeel2001

[BaronGrackle]

2 minutes ago, Jake said:

!But there is still the fact that the people creating the work and building the universe are going about it in a fundamentally different way. Though you’re right that I can continue to ignore things if I want, my counter argument to that is any new piece of Star Wars media now reminds me that I’m ignoring the other stuff.

That's how it was before, though. After Episode III, any new book etc. would try to factor in the full EU. There were contradictions, but I daresay about the sane number as we have today...

[Jake]

That was already built on two decades of slop though. Star Wars was slop mountain and that was part of the fun for me. That universe is actually not built to make sense. It’s often cited as either being a pulp adventure serial, or an epic myth, but either way those aren’t the kinds of stories built atop Tolkien-style worldbuilding pre-gaming. You just pile what happens next on top of what came before. There are no rules until you need the next one. That’s how actual storytelling works! You’re right that post prequels they tamped things down a lot, but it was still a shaggy dog. I’m fine with the fact that they decided to fully shear that shaggy dog when making ep 7, but I wish they’d let it grow out again. Instead it is constantly trying to be a beautiful show dog, which is against its nature. 

I have no way of knowing this for sure but I get the feeling George Lucas doesn’t really care about “canon” in the modern sense, where every piece of lore needs to perfectly touch. He seemed a lot more impressionistic with how he liked to work. Everything that was already made only existed as a convenience or a jumping off point for what he wanted to make next (this seems to be how Ron and Dave are thinking about Return to Monkey Island). There were Star Wars lore heads out there but they were at the fringes of the organization, having their fun cleaning up the mess, but not in a way that was primary to the IP or the vibe. The way Disney seems to be handling Star Wars, “lore” is king, “canon” is king. I think the change from the former outlook to the latter has drastically shifted how Star Wars is made, consumed, and perceived. 

 

Anyway I see we don’t agree on this and won’t really get any farther discussing it because we’re repeating our points to each other so I’m going to disengage at this point! Thanks for providing a place for me to wring out my thoughts on Star Wars  

[BaronGrackle]

21 minutes ago, Jake said:

There were Star Wars lore heads out there but they were at the fringes of the organization, having their fun cleaning up the mess, but not in a way that was primary to the IP or the vibe.

Oh, I am wounded! Wounded! 🤣

This is where I was in the early 2000s, when a lot of you (I think) were here on mojo or other forums. The worlds of Timothy Zahn and LucasArts video games. I guess not all LucasArts adventure fans were necessarily LucasArts Star Wars fans.

 

1 hour ago, ThunderPeel2001 said:

Amongst all that, I personally don't find Rey learning Wookieish to be so absurd. The galaxy was an absurd place a long time ago...

 

You misunderstand me. When I saw Rey speaking wookiee language, I just figured there were other wookiees on the planet she interacted with. Something like that seemed less absurd than studying an old iImperial flight simulator that included language tutorials. Just an opinion, but that's what I meant.

Edited September 11, 2022 by BaronGrackle

[Jake]

1 minute ago, BaronGrackle said:

Oh, I am wounded! Wounded!

You may have misread me: I meant there were some of those people within LucasFilm itself, not referring to  the fan community. Fans are welcome to be whatever they want, including huge lore heads! I welcome it all. (I read the heir to the empire trilogy and played most of the games, but didn’t get much deeper than that. Wore out my VHS copies of the movies and made a ton of lightsaber battle movies with my friends in the mid 90s though.)

[ThunderPeel2001]

21 hours ago, Jake said:

It’s often cited as either being a pulp adventure serial, or an epic myth

 

Star Wars is most often touted as "space opera" as opposed to "sci fi". Or it used to be. The distinction in my mind always seemed to be about how fast and loose it was with detail and science.

22 hours ago, BaronGrackle said:

You misunderstand me. When I saw Rey speaking wookiee language, I just figured there were other wookiees on the planet she interacted with. Something like that seemed less absurd than studying an old iImperial flight simulator that included language tutorials. Just an opinion, but that's what I meant.

 

Gotcha. I guess on the scale of things it seems like a small detail, but I understand you were using it to illustrate your point of things being introduced into the canon.

[Aro-tron]

On 9/12/2022 at 12:26 AM, ThunderPeel2001 said:

After I learned they'd written stories for every character we see in the Moss Eisley cantina -- even the ones only seen for a few frames -- I knew the EU wasn't for me. I want to be able to imagine that stuff, not have someone fill it in for me.

I get this point, but I read that book as a kid and it was more like a weird creative writing challenge than at attempt at building out a cohesive lore. The stories were written by a bunch of different authors, and they each took their stories in wildly different directions in terms of tone and genre, and it didn't tie into anything else. It's not a classic by any means, but

I can recall more details from the stories than I do from many of the main EU novels. I found it disconcertingly avant garde, and it didn't seem like anyone was monitoring the brand very closely.

 

The wobbly continuity of Star Wars in the 90s had a charm to it that I don't associate with the brand any more. I had a book called 'The Essential Guide to Characters', which re-read a lot because it had a bunch of characters that came from outside the EU I was familiar with. There was stuff like the Ewoks cartoon series, the Marvel comic books, and a middle-grade chapter book series where the Emperor had a long-lost kid called ...  Triclops. Just piles of stuff from a whole range of licencees who obviously never talked to each other. This book purported to reconcile all of it, but really just drew attention to the depth of imagination required in order to piece together how ramshackle and incongruent it all was. Here's the cover:

Like, I love that Vader and Leia are just kind of buried in the background behind random aliens, and that C-3PO is from a comic book adaptation of the Droids cartoon series. Who's that lady in the front? I couldn't tell you, and I spent many afternoons sprawled on the floor reading this book. This was a thick black and white paperback with lots of drawings of the characters, and I think it had some things in common with a role-playing source book. To me, it made it feel like Star Wars was a weird world where anyone could add a character or a time period and mess around however they wanted to.

[BaronGrackle]

Since Tales from the Mos Eisley Cantina has been mentioned twice now, you guys get my fansong. It used to be on the Star Wars Miniatures forums and a Warcraft lore forum, before they got shut down.
 

Tales from the Cantina Band

 

It's a long, long walk from Valerian's place
And Jabba's is further away
We're playing the cover for Chalmun's right now
'Cause we've got no real choice but to stay

A Force sensitive spacer and a wookiee talk shop
Though neither of them owns a ship
And two women who call themselves sisters drink usuals
While trying to look nondescript

La, la-la, di-di-da
La-la, di-di-da da-dum

Play us a song, you're the cantina band
Play us a song today
Well, it's dark and it's hot and your kloo horn is blaring
And we wouldn't want it any other way

Now a hammerhead shares one last drink with a talz,
Whose eyes guard a drunk chadra-fan
And a thin figure smokes on his pipe by himself
He's deadlier than just a mere man

Then a guy at the bar whose face carries some scars
And a walrus man start up a fight,
But it comes to an end when the thug loses his limb
To an elegant, brilliant blue light

(music stops, lightsaber hum)
(lightsaber off, music restarts)

Oh, la, la-la, di-di-da
La-la, di-di-da da-dum

Now a wolfman and lamproid are falling in love
While a farmer is mapping out peace
And a gotal Imperial is torn 'tween his female
And a payday who's finally in reach

And one jawa is trading for courage
While the ranat makes off like a thief
No, the troopers can't get a straight answer in here,
But one doesn't like what he sees

Play us a song, you're the cantina band

Play us a song today
Well, it's dark and it's hot and your kloo horn is blaring
And we wouldn't want it any other way

The devaronian smiles as his finger keeps time,
And it looks like he's having a blast
And he worked really hard to get us all here
'Cause it sure beats lamenting the past

Then an ambitious hunter leads a smuggler aside,
But in minutes he's dead as a nail
And the barman invests in putting hatred to rest
When he discovers an incredible smell

Oh, la, la-la, di-di-da
La-la, di-di-da da-dum

Play it again, fiery Figrin D'an!
Play us a song, alright
'Cause out of all the scum and villainy here
About half will turn Rebel tonight

 

(I had another one with the Battle of the Grassy Plains for the Battle of New Orleans, but I forgot most of it.)

Edited September 13, 2022 by BaronGrackle

[ThunderPeel2001]

11 hours ago, Aro-tron said:

I get this point, but I read that book as a kid and it was more like a weird creative writing challenge than at attempt at building out a cohesive lore. The stories were written by a bunch of different authors, and they each took their stories in wildly different directions in terms of tone and genre, and it didn't tie into anything else. It's not a classic by any means, but

I can recall more details from the stories than I do from many of the main EU novels. I found it disconcertingly avant garde, and it didn't seem like anyone was monitoring the brand very closely.

 

The wobbly continuity of Star Wars in the 90s had a charm to it that I don't associate with the brand any more. I had a book called 'The Essential Guide to Characters', which re-read a lot because it had a bunch of characters that came from outside the EU I was familiar with. There was stuff like the Ewoks cartoon series, the Marvel comic books, and a middle-grade chapter book series where the Emperor had a long-lost kid called ...  Triclops. Just piles of stuff from a whole range of licencees who obviously never talked to each other. This book purported to reconcile all of it, but really just drew attention to the depth of imagination required in order to piece together how ramshackle and incongruent it all was. Here's the cover:

Like, I love that Vader and Leia are just kind of buried in the background behind random aliens, and that C-3PO is from a comic book adaptation of the Droids cartoon series. Who's that lady in the front? I couldn't tell you, and I spent many afternoons sprawled on the floor reading this book. This was a thick black and white paperback with lots of drawings of the characters, and I think it had some things in common with a role-playing source book. To me, it made it feel like Star Wars was a weird world where anyone could add a character or a time period and mess around however they wanted to.

 

I have that book somewhere! It's excellent proof (if any were needed) of how little planning George Lucas actually had for the series. It's all completely contradicted by the prequels, too.

[Laserschwert]

All the novels aside, this was probably my absolute favorite SW book ever:

 

This was years before the prequels, so it didn't give shit about canon (plus it just re-purposed McQuarrie's unused concept art for its own stories), but to 12-year-old me THIS was the much-needed glance into the corners of the SW universe not seen in the films. And it wasn't about action or great adventures, it was written in the form of travel diaries by "explorers", describing the lives of regular people in the SW universe, something I'm an absolute sucker for. Also, it had that amazing 70s sci-fi style that McQ's art just oozed with. (Plus, my copy got signed by David Prowse - not that it has anything to do with Vader).

Edited September 13, 2022 by Laserschwert

[ThunderPeel2001]

Oooh. Love Ralph McQuarrie's art!

[BaronGrackle]

13 hours ago, Aro-tron said:

Like, I love that Vader and Leia are just kind of buried in the background behind random aliens, and that C-3PO is from a comic book adaptation of the Droids cartoon series. Who's that lady in the front? I couldn't tell you, and I spent many afternoons sprawled on the floor reading this book. This was a thick black and white paperback with lots of drawings of the characters, and I think it had some things in common with a role-playing source book. To me, it made it feel like Star Wars was a weird world where anyone could add a character or a time period and mess around however they wanted to.

The internet tells me this book was November 1995. That matches the impression I remember of this time period, sort of doing its best to incorporate as much as possible. I love the fact that they included all of this in canon, and that they referenced or modified/repaired some of these zanier characters and events in later works.

 

To George Lucas, maybe Star Wars was always about Luke and Anakin. But to Star Wars media in the 90s and 00s, those main characters were "just kind of buried in the background" of an immense universe.

 

EDIT: Maybe that's why I wasn't compelled by Sequel narratives that made themes of Skywalkers not being too important. It felt like those themes were answering a Star Wars that existed in George Lucas's head, as opposed to the Star Wars that had actually existed in reality for decades now.

Rogue One and The Mandalorian hit those same pleasant feels, for me. I have some optimism for Andor.

Edited September 13, 2022 by BaronGrackle

[ThunderPeel2001]

14 minutes ago, BaronGrackle said:

To George Lucas, maybe Star Wars was always about Luke and Anakin. But to Star Wars media in the 90s and 00s, those main characters were "just kind of buried in the background" of an immense universe.

 

It may have evolved that way, but to begin with Star Wars was just a little space adventure. A stand-alone one, at that. Lucas always maintained that he had a big story planned out and decided to start in the middle, but none of that holds under scrutiny. He simply hit the motherlode and needed to take advantage of it.

 

(Not that I begrudge him that, but it's a bit annoying because a generation of people have grown up thinking that's how the creative process works: It's all perfectly planned from the start.)

 

Edited September 13, 2022 by ThunderPeel2001

[KestrelPi]

The problem with canon is that it creates a rod for the back of people working on something, the more of it that there is. It doesn't surprise me that Disney decided to ignore the extended universe, because why would impose lore on a universe that is there to please only a small minority of nerds when you're trying to make TV shows for a wide audience?

 

I'm not making fun of the small minority of nerds, by the way. I've BEEN that nerd for different things and different time, but I just think that it's possible for a universe to get so big that adhering to its canon becomes a practical canon.

 

I know why canon happens, people like to look at a fictional universe and understand 'this is what actually happened' but maybe a healthier approach is to treat them like mythologies. Collections of stories, some of which are consistent with each other, some not, some that completely contradict, and there doesn't have to be a right answer, or you can just choose what feels most 'right' for you.

 

I think that's where we'll have to get to with Monkey Island, after all.

[BaronGrackle]

2 minutes ago, ThunderPeel2001 said:

 

It may have evolved that way, but to begin with Star Wars was just a little space adventure. A stand-alone one, at that. Lucas always maintained that he had a big story planned out and decided to start in the middle, but none of that holds under scrutiny. He simply hit the motherlode and needed to take advantage of it. (Not that I begrudge him that, but it's a bit annoying because a generation of people have grown up thinking that's how the creative process works: It's all perfectly planned from the start.)

The greatest compliments I can give George Lucas for Star Wars are:

1) Starting the universe, and

2) Allowing the EU to exist

 

What can I say? I grew up and contributed to the era when disdain for Lucas was at an all-time high. We didn't much care what his vision for the universe was. If couldn't even get Han and Greedo right... etc. etc.

[ThunderPeel2001]

Just now, KestrelPi said:

The problem with canon is that it creates a rod for the back of people working on something, the more of it that there is. It doesn't surprise me that Disney decided to ignore the extended universe, because why would impose lore on a universe that is there to please only a small minority of nerds when you're trying to make TV shows for a wide audience?

 

I would cynically say that they weren't thinking of the audience when they scrapped the EU. They just wanted a fresh slate in order to bring new fans on. They doubled down by saying everything (from a certain date) is now 100% canon. 

[Laserschwert]

2 minutes ago, KestrelPi said:

I think that's where we'll have to get to with Monkey Island, after all.

That's what I liked about the concept of ToMI, because it was in fact just a collection of different "Tales" from the MI universe (at least it could have worked that way). And that's exactly why I'd love for ToMI to continue, because it could just go on to tell independent adventures in that world.

Edited September 13, 2022 by Laserschwert

[ThunderPeel2001]

1 minute ago, BaronGrackle said:

What can I say? I grew up and contributed to the era when disdain for Lucas was at an all-time high. We didn't much care what his vision for the universe was. If couldn't even get Han and Greedo right... etc. etc.

 

Wow, interesting. I grew up in an era where respect for Lucas was all time high. I forget that some people didn't see that era.

[KestrelPi]

Just now, ThunderPeel2001 said:

 

I would cynically say that they weren't thinking of the audience when they scrapped the EU. They just wanted a fresh slate in order to bring new fans on.

Exactly. They were thinking of the audience.

[Laserschwert]

Just now, ThunderPeel2001 said:

 

Wow, interesting. I grew up in an era where respect for Lucas was all time high. I forget that some people didn't see that era.

The 90s were a time when, to me, it felt like George was basically hands-off SW. He created a sandbox for other people to play in, and that's what the EU did.

[ThunderPeel2001]

Just now, Laserschwert said:

The 90s were a time when, to me, it felt like George was basically hands-off SW. He created a sandbox for other people to play in, and that's what the EU did.

 

But in 97 he made the Special Editions and began work on the long-awaited prequels. In the 90s is when Star Wars "came back" for me. And of course, lest we forget, the EU was never "canon" it was only a certain canon... there was about five different canons to choose from back then. 

[KestrelPi]

3 minutes ago, ThunderPeel2001 said:

 

Wow, interesting. I grew up in an era where respect for Lucas was all time high. I forget that some people didn't see that era.

 

Mm, I can't recall anyone questioning whether Lucas should be involved in the prequels when they were first announced. It was understood implicitly to be the right decision, even if he'd already started to show some of his worse tendencies with his tinkering with the Special Editions.

 

He still had so much currency that people trusted that he knew what he was doing with the prequels without question. Episode I killed a lot of that - a little unfairly I think. I don't think it's a great film by any means, but I find it more watchable than the other two, mainly because I don't need to watch Hayden Christensen mumble his way through those godawful lines he was given.

[BaronGrackle]

12 minutes ago, KestrelPi said:

The problem with canon is that it creates a rod for the back of people working on something, the more of it that there is. It doesn't surprise me that Disney decided to ignore the extended universe, because why would impose lore on a universe that is there to please only a small minority of nerds when you're trying to make TV shows for a wide audience?

But it's beautiful when they link it, and link it well. The Star Wars Holiday Special is a longtime joke for us all, but how brave were the later sources that came later with depictions of Chewbacca's same family members, and also Life Day itself?

 

It was exciting to read a new detailed article about something in Star Wars and to find an oblique reference to a pint-sized lagomorph (definitely Max), because Max was an Easter egg character in Jedi Knight.

 

I understand the argument that canon is "a rod for the back of people working", but does this mean when EMI came out you had no misgivings about Herman Toothrot being H.T. Marley? Even if we accept works when they ignore continuity, there is a pleasant note that gets hit when continuity is remembered and connected with.

 

I absolutely LOVE that, for RMI, Ron and Dave are at least attemptingcto make connections with the other games in the franchise... even if it won't hit 100%. With Marvel, I appreciate it when they mirror beats from the comic stories, even when they don't match exactly... and I appreciate it far less when Korg goes from having a mom and her boyfriend to having two dads in an all-male species - leaving my family and me to headcanon resolutions ourselves.

Edited September 13, 2022 by BaronGrackle

[ThunderPeel2001]

5 minutes ago, KestrelPi said:

Mm, I can't recall anyone questioning whether Lucas should be involved in the prequels when they were first announced. It was understood implicitly to be the right decision, even if he'd already started to show some of his worse tendencies with his tinkering with the Special Editions.

 

Yep, aside from the weird snafu of Greedo shooting first, everyone was still very much pro-Lucas. The Phantom Menace became the biggest joke in the world after it was released. Everyone wanted to love it so much, but everyone was so disappointed...

 

I think people were still hopeful that he'd course correct for Attack of the Clones (although the title, when it was announced, didn't inspire confidence).

 

Really The Force Awakens was the film that all of us wanted in 1999 (at least in tone and direction -- less green screen, etc.). But for those who grew up with the prequels... maybe they wanted more of those?

 

Edited September 13, 2022 by ThunderPeel2001

[KestrelPi]

15 minutes ago, BaronGrackle said:

But it's beautiful when they link it, and link it well. The Star Wars Holiday Soecial is a longtime joke for us all, but how brave were the later sources that came later with depictions of Chewbacca's same family members?

 

It was exciting read a new detailed article about something in Star Wars and to find an oblique reference to a pint-sized lagomorph (definitely Max), because Max was an Easter egg character in Jedi Knight.

 

I understand the argument that canon is "a rod for the back of people working", but does this mean when EMI came out you had no misgivings about Herman Toothrot being H.T. Marley? Even if we accept works when they ignore continuity, there is a pleasant note that gets hit when continuity is remembered and connected with.

 

I absolutely LOVE that, for RMI, Ron and Dave are at least attemptingcto nake connections with the other games in the franchise... even if it won't hit 100%. With Marvel, I appreciate it when they mirror beats from the comic stories, even when they don't match exactly... and I appreciate it far less when Korg goes from having a mom and her boyfriend to having two dads in an all-male species - leaving my family and I to headcanon resolutions ourselves.

 

It's only beautiful for the very small minority of people who care, though. I think as people who are nerds about various things we have to accept that we care a lot more about certain stuff than most other people and sometimes it makes sense for various reasons to make decisions that aren't going to please or be 'beautiful' to us. Not everything has to be for our benefit.

 

Like I say, this is all a mythology anyway, it's even presented a bit like an epic myth - why not accept that like all ancient myths, there are different tellings and different versions of the story, and you can choose which ones you like. Why this need for certainty? (Don't get me wrong, I think I understand the appeal of canon, it's just that I also understand why it is that sometimes creators and writers have a bit of a funny relationship with canon)

 

on your MI bits... The misgivings I had about HT Marley were less about inconsistency with previously established plot (perhaps it bugged me slightly, but not majorly) and more that it didn't seem to serve any good story purpose except to be a surprise twist. It was just a silly plot point put there to be a surprise and nothing else, while also replacing a character, Herman Toothrot, who I think was perfectly enjoyable on his own merits with a different character.

 

Another point is that I am also glad that Ron and Dave say they are not ignoring the games that came after where possible, but I think that's more to do with I feel like this is a much better compromise than Ron's previous position that he'd just make his own 3a and ignore the rest. To me, even with the best possible interpretation that he wanted to just make a MI3 without baggage, that always felt a bit like it would be difficult to do without seeming disrespectful of other's efforts.

 

 

Edited September 13, 2022 by KestrelPi