How to Balance The Saber and Guns in JK2

[digl]

Welcome dirth

Your chocolate jedi medallion and gift baskets (both original and dangerously sabotaged stolen ones) will be here soon

 

I agree with you

It should be possible to play either with saber only, or with weapons, however each person likes it best

[sanpilou]

to balance gunz and force RAVEN should place options like : gun only with/without force, saber only with/without force, saber n gunz with/without force.........i think adding these options would be better than anything...

[StormHammer]

Welcome to the forums, Dirth Vedar. I hope you enjoy your stay. Here...

 

*hands over a chocolate Jedi Medallion*

 

There you go.

 

In response to your post, I do think some weapons need a bit of tweaking, but nothing too major. A bit more weapon balancing, especially for MP mode, could be good. Until we know a bit more about the game dynamics - which can only really be judged by playing a demo - we don't really know exactly how fast or far we will be able to move or react to counter certain attacks.

[Dirth Vedar]

You know, I always hated how grenades are handled in first person shooters. Why can't they assign a hot key that just throws a thermal detonator or mine without switching away from your current weapon. It sure will make grenades more versitile, instead of having to switch to it, hold the throw key for proper distance, and switch back to your old weapon. I think they should just assign G or Z or something, and just chuck a thermal detonator in a distance determined by how high you're aiming, without having to switch to it.

[matt--]

In Tribes2, they assigned the G key to grenades and the M key to mines. It works very well, you aren't defenseless when laying a minefield:)

[StormHammer]

That's a good idea, Dirth. I can't see any reason why you shouldn't be able to throw a TD with one hand, while retaining a blaster/saber in the other. This again brings up the whole issue of being able to hold two weapons at the same time. It should be possible to hold two blaster pistols, for example, and only require two hands for heavier weapon types.

 

It would be good to see this implemented out of the box...but if not, certainly as a mod.

[DeathBoLT]

the only problem is that if Jedi Outcast force powers operate anything like JK's did, you're going to be short on keys that are reasonably easy to hit.

 

it's probably better if they designed the game to free up some keys for use as force power hotkeys..

[Dirth Vedar]

Yeah, there's not enough keys on the keyboard, and certainly not enough fingers... hehe.

 

Although judging by some of the screen shots, particularly the one where it shows Kyle holding a thermal detonator, I think grenade throwing will remain the same, which is too bad, because it'll most likely mean that I'll run through the entire game will all my thermo detonators fully stocked. Except for that one occasion where there'll be this one inept guard standing at the bottom of the ledge completely ignorant of the fact that a thermo detonator will be dropped right behind him

I think it'll be nice to be able able to throw a quick grenade in a firefight with 5 or 6 storm troopers though. Heck, I think I'll give up my lightning hot key for that

[Agen]

Well there's never a shortage of keys for me... me and my cousin once sat at a computter for 3 and a half hours trying to figure out the perfect setup.... I use it for eveygame (excpet worms) but i can't give it out though. giving away stuff cos' that helps me amazingly could make other peps better and then i wouldn't be better than them. Hot Keys is the path to follow.if u have a 3rd button on ur mouse and it's been installed then that helps too.

[PreTZeL]

that is strangely intriguing....what games do you use it for? like what do you play with the most...

 

you could sell that and become rich man!

[Agen]

that is strangely intriguing....what games do you use it for? like what do you play with the most...

U could sell it and become a rich man!!!

 

Yeh i thought about that one time.... Game Glory or Rich Man.... I probably would have tried to given it to someone but my cousin prompted me to keep it for ourselves. so i did... I'll give u mosto f the genres i use it for.

 

FPS- Definately.. almost every game there is it has to be with that. I originally had the idea when i was playing doom a long time ago.

 

Stategy - Well yeh if u can use keys but if it's mouse based i usually stick to it.

 

RPG - Never without the keys for RPGs

 

Action/adventure... oh Yeh. how easy lara's journey's became after a little change.

 

Racing Yeh but the jump buttons are used as brakes.

 

God Games- Well i do if it doesn't need a mouse most do though.

 

Sports well it's a definate for Fifa and Tony Hawks.

 

3d Action/ Strategy.. No different from the Fps stuff.

 

Flgiht Sims- Yep much easier control over the pretend world that looks nothing liek real-life.

 

Space Combat - Yep I don't know where i'd be without the keys for this genre!

 

Well there's most of the genre's I can think of.. Put it liek this i use it for everything but mosue games. Like BnW.

[Wilhuf]

Two rather lengthy threads on this subject exist. Take a look for previous discussion this August on the lightsaber.

 

 

Reasons Why the Lightsaber Needs to be Made More Respectable

 

and

 

Lightsaber Needs to be Made Respectable Ep. 2

[Agen]

Yes and it is jk2.net's longest thread but this isn't exactly the same..... look... how to balance the lightsaber and guns

To how to make the lightsaber more respectable.

 

There's a difference but this thread is on how to keep it balanced rather than beefing up the lgihtsaber to be as good as guns.

Well that's how i intended when i first started it.

[madrebel]

Originally posted by [eVe]DeathBoLT

the only problem is that if Jedi Outcast force powers operate anything like JK's did, you're going to be short on keys that are reasonably easy to hit.

 

it's probably better if they designed the game to free up some keys for use as force power hotkeys..

 

unlike JK Q3 engine allows you to bind many functions to 1 key.

 

example

 

force sight = E

force run = shift/E

force absorb = ctrl/E

force pull = alt/E

 

i usually dont go past the shift and control keys....alt is a bit difficult to get to sometimes.

[Agen]

ugh... that sort of way sounds liek fish curry if u don't mind me saying!

[[SWS]Strider]

If any of you have seen or played Halo, that alot how I would like JK to be in "some" respects. For one thing, it has a button only for throwing gernades, which makes them incredibly useful. Another thig is the weapon balance on that game is great! No one weapon dominates the game. I know this sounds off topic, but I think some of these ideas would be really good.

 

Also on force powers I was thinking. If any have you have ever played RTCW there are some bound keys used for commands. So you can press V then a certain number and then anohter number and you say whatever that one is. What if you could do that with force powers? I know it sounds like it would take to long, but it reall dosen't once you get used to it.

 

 

Strider

[digl]

It could work

When you are used to that It works pretty fast

But I dont think there will be any shortage of keys

[Dirth Vedar]

mapping weapon selection to the number keys make sense in doom, because you don't need all the extra keys for stuff like force power. But in JK and the likes, wouldn't it make more sense to map all of the weapons to the Function keys, like F1 saber, F2 pistol, F3 blaster and so forth, and then map the force powers to the number key, so 1 will be force run, 2 force jump and so on, it's easier to reach, and it's not as annoying as Shift/E, Ctrl/E (no offense, I just find combo keys hard to remember). I mean, with auto switching when you run out of ammo, and mapping a key to toggle between weapons, how often will you need to change weapons that quick anyway. If I give up that 2 millisecond it takes for me to go to function key to switch from blaster to concussion rifle, I'd gain a much bigger edge in accessing all my force powers quickly at the number keys.

[Agen]

Sheesh... might be easier to remember but do u remember the earlier days of jk were people stopped in mid action to look for a certain force powers.... now eveyone (most) use hotkeys so u don't have to search.. also i find the gun thing 123.... is ok but for force powers i would be even more annoying!

[Ushgarak]

Hmm. The way I see it, there should only be two things that Raven are taking into account when it comes to weapon design in JKII. That is:

 

1. Capturing the feel of the films

 

and

 

2. Making a playable game

 

And I feel these two rules yield the following major points:

 

1. (Capturing the feel of the films)

 

- Many major characters in the films choose to use pistols. A rifle seems to be a grunt's weapon. So there should be plenty of reasons to still want to use a pistol after you have larger weapons. In fact, there is no evidence in the films that rifles fire faster than pistols- just look how fast Panaka's pistol fires when blowing out the window in Phantom Menace, and rilfes are almost always fired single-shot style- but this is also a gameplay issue (see below)

 

- The prequel films make it very obvious that fully trained Jedi with sabres are totally superior to anything else. Several things have to be borne in mind here:

a. The Jedi seem to be able to block shots coming at ALL angles, not just in front of them

b. No Jedi ever seems to think it is worth using a different weapon (I always thought it would be a good idea in multi-player that the more powerful a Jedi you take, the less weapons other than the lightsabre he is allowed to use). In any case, it is clear that the lightsabre is a weapon to be feared perhaps more than any other.

c. Jedi do NOT run around pulling the weapons out of the hands of every enemy they meet. No matter how 'logical' this may seem, this isn't what they do, hence Pull was greatly overpowered in the original

d. The Jedi were feared even by a people with a 'battle-hardened' army, consisting of tanks, heavy weaponry, the works. So simply having bigger guns is no way to defeat Jedi.

 

- In the new film, Jango Fett is capable of fighting Jedi. However, Jango is the absolute BEST of the bounty hunters, the king of kings, elite of the elite. This makes him powerful enough to be able to fight Jedi, in general.

 

Now, in multiplayer, it is reasonable to be want to take a bounty hunter as 'good' as Jango Fett (skill of the player not withstanding). However, it would then also be reasonable for a player to want to be a Jedi as good as Mace Windu or Yoda in multi-player, which is a whole power level above Fett, greatest of the Bounty Hunters.

I would say that if anyone has a problem with the seemingly invincible Jedi being defeated by people wuth guns, then they should remember that Deathmatch and so on is a forced, 'unreal' situation, so you CAN say that the people using guns are all as good as Jango and the Jedi aren't quite the absolute best the Order can produce.

 

In this way, multi-player can consist of both guns and sabres and still keep the 'feel' of the films. Stretching things to make it play well is no real problem at all.

 

In single player, of course, Kyle should be munching his way through loads of people with only overhwelming numbers or bosses being an issue for him.

 

But again, this is a gameplay issue.

 

(BTW, it should be noted that Jango also uses pistols. Two of them. At once. Firing VERY fast. Oh yes...)

 

2. (Making a playable game)

 

-While in the films the sabre is made out to be best, it would be a very one-sided game if it was the only weapon that anyone used. This is where gameplay takes precedence over the feel of the films.

But that said, I still think the sabre was underpowerd in JKI. It really should be an ultimate weapon- but one of several. True, a skilled player with a sabre was exceedingly dangerous, but a skilled player with just about ANY weapon was that dangeorus, and you didn't have to play long to find out that the range, speed, and area effect of the Concussion Rifle made it far better than the sabre, in general. The zero range of the sabre really was not compensated by the damage it did. I really think the sabre should be a one-slash-kill weapon- and it would still be balanced. It should also slash faster- Kyle's slashes in JKI are almost lesiurely.

 

- If rifles don't fire faster than pistols, they would be useless. So making them faster firing is a necessary concession.

 

-If Jedi could always block 360 degrees ALL shots coming at them, they would be no fun at all to fight. But if you can always shoot them in the back, they are too easy. This is diffcult to balance... though in the new film, Jango works on the idea that if he fires ENOUGH shots, the Jedi can't block them all. Didn't the game 'The Phantom Menace', for all its faults, have a system in which a Jedi could only spend so much time blocking shots before he was hit? Perhaps that would work well here.

 

- And as for the heavy weapons... well, it was really NOT on that things like the concussion rifle could easily knock out Jedi- hordes of them from a distance. It made trying to play a Jedi no fun at all. So something has to be done about that; though I am not sure what.

 

In conclusion... the sabre DOES have to be made more powerful, but not AS powerful as it is in the films.

 

Well, that's what I think...

[digl]

Welcom Ushgarak

 

very good post

 

I agree with your points

About the slow slashes in JK, maybe we could blame Luke and Vader in the movies, because Luke was never really trained and Vader was in bad shape

But now the saber should work as seen in Ep1, but of course with some limitations for gameplay as you say

[CaptainRAVE]

From what we saw of the early E3 footage the lightsaber battles look very quick and intense. Alot quicker than they were in JK.

[Agen]

I just looked again and the lgihtsaber battles look on par with the obi-wan vs maul.... cool

[Ushgarak]

Well, that's good. But while I know that Raven plan to improve the sabre- especially in its look- I do rather feel that things will be more the same as they were in JKI than different.

 

And that will still be a lot of fun, of course, but it might not be QUITE what it could have been.

 

Anyway, I am sure there have already been a dozen threads on sabre combat, so I won;'t get into that...

[StormHammer]

Welcome to the forums, Ushgarak. Hope you enjoy your stay. Here... *hands over chocolate Jedi Medallion*. There you go.

 

Originally posted by Ushgarak

Many major characters in the films choose to use pistols. A rifle seems to be a grunt's weapon. So there should be plenty of reasons to still want to use a pistol after you have larger weapons.

 

That's a good point, although I think the pistol should have a limited range, and less punch per blast than a rifle. I like the idea of being able to use duel pistols, in a similar way to UT. If you get in close enough, you can drill your enemy pretty fast with two pistols, especially if aiming for the head.

 

As for single-shot rifles...I don't see the need. If anything, something like the ST Rifle should have 3 fire modes - single shot, which delivers the biggest punch, a semi-auto triple-shot, say, that delivers less of a punch, but is very accurate, and a full-burst mode which reduces accuracy, allowing the spray effect, but which can be very effective at close range. Of course, your ammo should run out pretty quickly, leaving you open to attack.

 

No Jedi ever seems to think it is worth using a different weapon (I always thought it would be a good idea in multi-player that the more powerful a Jedi you take, the less weapons other than the lightsabre he is allowed to use). In any case, it is clear that the lightsabre is a weapon to be feared perhaps more than any other.

 

Yeah, I agree that as you increase in rank you should rely on the saber and Force more than other weapons. The lightsaber could become a bit more powerful, but as I understand it this time it will always react to the environment...and supposedly will be able to cut through things including opponents/NPCs even when idle. So if you brush past someone with your saber ignited and it makes contact, it should cause damage. I'm not sure about one-slash-kills, though. Maybe this should be the case for headshots, or even torso slices...but lopping off an arm or leg should not lead to instant death. In fact, if you lop off an arm, I'd like to see something similar to RUNE where it grows back if you get to some Health packs, or something. It might not be realistic, but it would be fun.

 

Jedi do NOT run around pulling the weapons out of the hands of every enemy they meet. No matter how 'logical' this may seem, this isn't what they do, hence Pull was greatly overpowered in the original

 

I think that was more an issue of trying to make the movies more exciting. I mean, it wouldn't have made for very good battle scenes if the Jedi kept pulling guns out of people's (or droids) hands. Of course it would be more logical for a Jedi to disarm an opponent rather than kill them, and so I think the level of Pull was fine in the previous outing, and should remain the same.

 

In single player, of course, Kyle should be munching his way through loads of people with only overhwelming numbers or bosses being an issue for him.

 

Maybe...but I think that should be left in the player's hands. I wouldn't want to see a lot of auto-moves and defences for the sake of Kyle reacting more like a fully-fledged Jedi. Give the player some cues if necessary, but I'd prefer if they leave the control of how to react in a situation with the player. So the risks of dying should not be minimised in any way...from any quarter. Skilled players obviously should not take as much damage, while dealing out more, so I agree from that perspective.