Reasons why the Lightsaber Needs to be Made Respectable

[Guest Krayt Tion]

Originally posted by Syndrix:

<STRONG>Please clarify this, Wilhuf's acquisition system only applied to heavy weapons, the sniper is just a blaster bolt still. So if someone were facing in his general direction, within the "sphere", it would be blocked automatically. Even without his acquisition principal a sniper could do quite a bit of damage to the back of targets, couldnt they?

Also, I think to many people assume seeing is going to be the same as it once was...</STRONG>

 

You quoted me on that before my edit which is why you might have been confused. That sentence there had nothing to do with hitting the back of a Jedi even though it had the typo "back" in there.

 

It's not posssible for me to think that a Jedi should block behind his back, if you read my older posts, I never supported that, nor do I now. For further clarification read below.

 

'Seeing' means seeing the incoming projectile: You can see it on your screen, peripheral or dead ahead, no difference. Seeing in this case has nothing to do with 'Force Seeing.' If someone shoots at you from behind with a rail and you turn to see it before it hits, but still don't have time to 'aquire,' you take the hit.

 

Never did I say Force Seeing had anything to do with blocking or 'aquisition time.' Only finding the shooter after he has fired on you so you can go kill him. That's the only reason I included force seeing in my last post. So please explain what that has to do with the argument. Nor at any point in time did I support a Jedi's ability by any means to block a shot that is fired at his back within most distances. So I don't understand the response there either.

 

Likewise, if someone shoots you and you see the projectile long enough (.5 sec maybe less?) you block the shot, provided it crosses your blocking zone.

 

For lasers (including sniper fire), acquisition time doesn't come into play. Nor does 'seeing' the incoming fire. You just block if the shot intersects the blocking zone. Fairly straightforward.

 

I wasn't competely confusing Sniper Fire with heavy weapons fire as you seem to think. I understand the basic underlying concepts here. My quam with the Sniper Fire actually resides in the concept of blocking everything whether you are facing within certain angle in relation to the incoming blaster fire or not. This system is all fine and dandy when you can see your attacker, but in this system players are rewarded with a block even if they have unwittingly wandered front-first into the scoped view of a sniper who (if they don't activate Force Seeing) is completely invisble to them! This could very well be explained as the computer giving you super-human abilities that a Jedi should have that you cannot simply give yourself. From a balance standpoint though does this Jedi Blocking System, which I think is good for other types of blaster fire, make them too uber against snipers? As it would stand snipers would lose half their hidden right (baring Force Seeing) to hit those who are unware or too far away to be aware, even for a Jedi.

 

I find it strange that I find myself arguing for better gunner abilities but it is all in the name of balance...

 

Don't worry about 'sidestepping' shrapnel. That just adds unnecessary complexity.

 

Yep, said this, I of course agree.

 

Conceptually, when blocking, the Jedi simply smashes the rail out the way, swatting the shrapnel aside, neutralizing the detonator.

 

Still disagree. This still comes down to how the rail should react when it hits the saber, in terms of physics but also balance. Re-expressing your stance on this in light of this aquisition system changles changes little in this regard.

 

[ August 13, 2001: Message edited by: Krayt Tion ]

[Syndrix]

Well, yes Wilhuf, that is true, I just tend to over compensate because the saber was relatively useless against an experienced gunner in JK. Also I'm thinking of JK's unbalanced play which I shouldnt do.

 

If the repeater is boosted up and its fire rate improved then I can belive some shots would get through, it just seemed too slow in JK.

 

Also I mentioned auto-blocking being toggle-able somewhere. I would most certainly want this to be an option, if you dont want to block you shouldnt have to.

 

And no, I dont want an Uber-Jedi saberist. That would be just the reverse of JK.

 

Edit: I now agree with Krayt Tion, after that clarification, about the sniper rifle. While one could argue that blocking a shot you dont know is coming, ie. a hidden sniper,is the Jedi's seeing in to the future as some say Vader did in cloud city with Han's blaster fire. From a balance of gameplay perspective, it would present too many problems. What is the point of Raven refining the sniper rifle in JK2, if it is not useful at all because you have to get a back shot (which is harder than it sounds) or it is blocked.

 

[ August 13, 2001: Message edited by: Syndrix ]

[Wilhuf]

From a balance viewpoint, arguing against blockable heavy weapons (based on 'physics,' or not) is, intenational or not, an attempt at weakening the lightsaber.

 

Saber blocking against sniper rounds in the original Mysteries of the Sith was midly effective. A fairly good portion of sniper rounds got through, many did not. And the blocking could be done, even if you didn't see the enemy straight ahead. That worked pretty well.

 

Concept is simple : Jedi uses force enhanced reflex to defend against unseen enemies. Like Luke using his 'danger sense' to detect unseen enemies in the Tim Zahn novels.

 

Ok guys, so any other suggestions for actual improvements?

 

[ August 13, 2001: Message edited by: Wilhuf ]

[Guest Krayt Tion]

The proposed saber blocking system that we've been evolving and discussing, especially with your blast blocking/heavy weapons block aquiring system in mind, has already differentiated itself enough from any old JK blocking system that to it isn't very accurate to purely transfer the qualities of one aspect of blocking (like sniping in what I think you mean is MotS) creates mismatches with the rest of the system. Kind of like introducing a bug patch that in term produces more problems.

 

I hope by putting emphasis on actual improvements that you are not implying that the dicussion we've had today has not been helpful. Debating the validity of a proposed idea is in itself an improvement. Working to refine that idea, incorporate it into other ideas or simply 'cross it off the list' is an excellent way to go about things, imo.

 

I've said my share enough today already, I'll probably be able to post some more later to improve the saber, perhaps later tonight.

[Guest Krayt Tion]

Nice editing, ug. I'm getting tired of having to change my argument as someone edits their post while I am typing, just as it is annoying for people to have me unknowingly edit my message after they have replied. The constant cycle of editing shall never cease. Maybe it is time to start editing my messages in Word.

 

Forgot to respond to this

 

Concept is simple : Jedi uses force enhanced reflex to defend against unseen enemies. Like Luke using his 'danger sense' to detect unseen enemies in the Tim Zahn novels.

 

Yes, explaination to why this would happen is very doable and easy to present, Syndrix outlined one, I outlined one... there is little point in outlining another here that works just a well. It is the practical concept that is important here, that balance word again. Something that makes sure the snipers are actually somewhat useful.

[Wilhuf]

Well, I am more interested in how to make game better. But if folks like to focus on why the ideas won't work, that is fine. A normal part of discussion.

 

In addition to physics, plausability/believability, balance, the mechanics of improvement, etc. we really have to ask foremost 'is this fun?'

 

How much fun would it be if the saber were more powerful (in the ways we have outlined)? Would it be more fun if heavy weapons could be blocked? Or would it be more fun to play if not? Those are some of the most important questions in this particular subdebate.

[Boba Jim]

HOLY SHNIKIES!! Hemispheres of protection, Acquisitions of projectiles, Lightsaber Physics, Enhanced reflexes??!!

 

You guys REALLLLLY need to get out more. God I hope Raven stopped reading this thread a looooong time ago and completes a game that plays really well while breaking several of your rules of physics or continuity so it's still fun to play. No offense intended, but Geeessh!

[Wilhuf]

I think we have stumbled upon a new Force power. Introducing Force Edit™.

 

Hmm what we should do is wait to reply until at least a good 10 minutes or so after the post we are responding to is first made. Hopefully that will give the other guy enough time to fist make his corrections. Then we can minimize misquotes and omissions/comissions. In theory.

[wardz]

I think Wilhulf has hit the nail on the head. I am not interested in the the laws of physics as far as a game of Jedi Knight is concerned, as long as the basic prinicples are in place...

 

If you want to talk about it hypothetically then thats fine, but don't let it ruin an otherwise potentially great game...

 

(thats 10 mins, that should cover it!)

 

wardz

[Wilhuf]

No offense gonk, but 'God I hope Raven stopped reading this thread a looooong time ago' isn't really gonna make the lightsaber any better now is it?

 

Maybe so. They shouldn't waste their time on much of this debate. But, they should test some of the ideas!

 

We created the bulleted list™ so people who don't care about details or debate don't have to slog through it. Just read the list and enjoy:

 

Suggested Improvements:

• Faster Lightsaber Attack Rate
  
• Location Based Lightsaber Damage (and damage which could affect target movement)
  
• Increased Lightsaber Damage
  
• Ability to block heavy weapons fire with Lightsaber(at cost of Force Block and/or Force Push, requires a suitable 'acqusition time' during which the incoming projectile must be visible)
  
• Toggled Automatic Lightsaber Blocking
  
• Effective ranged lightsaber attack (faster, steerable Force lightsaber throw)
  
• More lightsaber attack moves/combinations
  
• Better lightsaber animations
  
• Toned Down Speed and Jump (in decreased magnitude and duration and/or increased Force cost)
  
• Force Pull to drag opponent within lightsaber killing range
  
• Customizable gameplay settings (e.g., gravity, overall speed)
  

 

[ August 13, 2001: Message edited by: Wilhuf ]

[DeathBoLT]

hehe nearly a page and a half of posts in 18 hours. it is a bit of a pain to read through but I hope raven does b/c some good stuff is covered here..

 

Kurgran:

On a somewhat releated not, I once read somebody claiming that they could (in JK or MotS, maybe both) use Force Destruction to detonate incoming Rail charges.

 

Yes, anything with splash damage can detonate a rail det. It has to be close enough to the explosion-like on a wall- though to catch any of the splash damage so its not a real noticable thing. Thats why it hurts even more when your trying to leave a few sticky rails to shake off a pursuer and someone fires a conc close enough to you so that you catch not only their shot but damage from your own prematurely detonated rail

[KillerBee]

"Faster Lightsaber Attack Rate"

 

good.. it was a bit too slow

 

"Location Based Lightsaber Damage (and damage which could affect target movement)"

 

definitly, and hits on arms/weapons should stop the guy firing..

 

"Increased Lightsaber Damage"

 

yes, tho tbh the sabre damage was realistic in jk no shields = death.. the shielding stopped the blow..

 

"Ability to block heavy weapons fire with Lightsaber(at cost of Force Block and/or Force Push, requires a suitable 'acqusition time' during which the incoming projectile must be visible)"

 

I think player reaction times should be good enough. in jk you could see items coming in on the map with seeing on from behind..

the sabre should in no way come into it tho, it should be the force only, you simply need to turn to face it and either get a throw lock on a player, and divert it to that player, or to use push to stop/ detonate it in flight (assuming push to be ala TPM the game)

 

"Toggled Automatic Lightsaber Blocking"

 

imho no. always on..

 

"Effective ranged lightsaber attack (faster, steerable Force lightsaber throw)"

 

steerable sabre throw is done according to a preview

and pulling the target towards you will help in attack remember..

 

"More lightsaber attack moves/combinations"

 

yes..

 

"Better lightsaber animations"

 

erm, yeah like they wont be doing that..

 

"Toned Down Speed and Jump (in decreased magnitude and duration and/or increased Force cost)"

 

depends, If they are going for a jedi using weapons thing then no, make it similar to JK1

if they want nf classes in with jedi, then yes, speed mainly should be remodeled for short sharp bursts..

 

"Force Pull to drag opponent within lightsaber killing range"

 

why is that even listed?

 

"Customizable gameplay settings (e.g., gravity, overall speed)"

 

q3 engine = this will happen. also most probably you will be able to disable items/weapons you dislike, and prolly force powers..

[Wilhuf]

Bee you first say 'pulling the target towards you will help in attack remember..'

 

And then you don't understand why "Force Pull to drag opponent within lightsaber killing range" is even listed?

 

Strange.

[Guest Krayt Tion]

Well if I were to make comments on the way people are approaching this discussion:

 

Balance, the pursuit of balance is very much the pursuit of fun. Every one wants to have their general play style well represented, to have one so much more powerful then the other that even the most skillful player cannot compensate is not fun. Anyone care to disagree or state that they actually enjoy getting slaughtered because of grievous imbalances? Playing the underdog is one thing, playin the Gimp is entirely another.

 

Physics, the more accurate and true to the SW universe the more potentially immersive SW experience, weigh that against fun,if after this you still want to do it, include it. I don't see the harm in exploring it for the benfits it can bring. E.g. It would be fun to force push and throw a slow-moving heavy weapons projectile out of my path and possibley into something else... but I would also have the benefit of knowing that this would really have a good chance of happening in the SW universe! Thank you physics for that added believablity.

 

Be careful though that you don't try to explain everything in terms of fun. I think the a heavy moving projectile should blow up when it is blocked by the saber- explosions are cool, that would be fun! Believe it or not gritty long-winded arguments do have their advantages to this.

 

Sorry no specific improvements at this time but hopefully this post will be helpful in other ways.

[Mafia_Jabba]

this thread is long

[bsbuckeye21]

and so...

[GonkH8er]

i think 7 pages is the longest thread so far.....

[Luck]

they said u could 'deflect' thermals, presumably with the saber. if u can deflect thermals u should be able to deflect projectiles. say if there were 'rails' like in jk, u should be able to give em a good whack and thus prevent them from splodin.

 

however, it seems to me we're all thinkin bout the concussion rifle and how much that ruined use of the saber.

 

easy to fix, just don't include it in the game or scale it back so its not so powerful. or make it like the bfg. either way a gun whose bullet is intangible is gonna be the gun that can rule ass on the lightsaber. so make either make all the bullets tangible or make that gun the uber weapon that ruins the game fer a few minutes like the bfg or the supershield.

 

pretty sure whatchu all want is *tangible* bullets and thats the end of that.

 

 

Lucky

[Guest Krayt Tion]

The conc is perhaps the epitome of gun superiority over sabers in JK, I agree.

 

It almost seems like the designers of JK2 wanted to heavily continue in the tradition of Dark Forces enough so that when they needed a heavy weapon to use in multiplayer they just figured 'why not just use the conc.'

 

It seemed the JK team wanted to add a heavy weapon of their own (who wouldn't want to make one up) so with rail the JK gun scene became a little top-heavy. Having two heavy weapons in one weapons line up is certainly not unheard of (just look at Quake 3, that vanilla balance has held true for a while). It was the conc that really threw the balance off especially when combined with the rail against saberists.

 

Although the conc was modified somewhat for JK, there was obviously no saber or multiplayer in Dark Forces for them to check the balance to. I guess they figured the saber would be powerful enough against guns like the conc because of the force powers you could use with the saber. One thing- the gunners had force too. Oops.

 

Without even modifying the Saber one thing that would help it would be a mode (one of many) that allows gunners with no force to face Jedi full of force. It isn't very fun for me in a roleplaying gameplay sense to face some force jumping dolt with a conc while I'm trying to play a Jedi. That will take care of some problems right there.

 

I'm glad you pointed that out, Lucky. We can explore saber concepts till we are blue in the face but sabers are not the only thing to modify if you want a respectable saber. We can look to the guns themselves.

 

Perhaps Raven has seen the wisdom in not throwing the conc back into the mix. As of now it will not be returning to JK2. As much as I love Dark Forces, I think this is for the better.

 

Vagabond pointed out many guns we could use in the Uber Heavy Weapon Slot that are already established in the Star Wars Universe. We could talk about how one of those might work in JK2, or someone here can think of how they want their completely original Uber Heavy JK2 weapon to work, keeping in mind how it will work against the saber. Any ideas?

[Wilhuf]

Here are some of the known 'canon' heavy weapons (thanks very much to Vagabond for compiling the Weapons Database) which I think are promising:

 

BlasTech DLT-19 Heavy Blaster Rifle. Powerful Imperial issue assault rifle. Shorter range than the Valken-38 Carbine, but certainly looks as cool. Ranged hitscan weapon. Lay down the hurt.

 

BlasTech DLT-20A Pulse Cannon. Fires plasma. Could be a good ranged splash weapon.

 

BlasTech E-Web Repeating Blaster. Deployable Point Defense. Not sure this would fit in, as it is deployed, very hampered mobility. The damage it could dish out would have to be devastating to compensate for the risks inherent in a stationary weapon. Could be very fun to play with though. Outlaws was able to pull off a similar weapon (the deployable gatling gun).

 

Kelvarek Consolidated Arms MM9 Rocket System. The Rocket launcher. Probably more appropriate to Jedi Outcast than the anti-vehicle PLX-2M Missile Launcher.

 

Other promising medium weapons:

 

Golan Arms FCI Flechette Launcher (probably redundant to the Imperial Repeater)

 

Pacnorval Defense System, Limited SG-82 Sonic Rifle. May function like a shotgun, possibly redundant to the bowcaster.

 

Tenloss DXR-6 Disruptor Rifle. Hard-hitting assassination rifle. (May be redundant to Raven's promised 'sniper rifle.')

 

Relby-V10 Micro Grenade Launcher. Fire grenades at your foes. Sounds cool, but I still think that a grenade launcher should be attached to the Imperial Repeater.

 

Still doesn't answer how these weapons will balance out, but it's a starting point, beyond the old Jedi Knight standbys of Rail and Concussion.

 

[ August 14, 2001: Message edited by: Wilhuf ]

[acdcfanbill]

ok, this is a little nit-picky, but i dont think that this is true...

Golan Arms FCI Flechette Launcher (probably redundant to the Imperial Repeater)

 

because dont flechette launchers launch projectiles, while the imp repeater used powercells, so i figgured that the repeater would have some sort of energy projectile...

[Syndrix]

Yes the Repeater is an energy-based gun, and yes its projectiles are energy. This was better illustrated in DF than in JK.

 

From Vagabonds column:

Golan Arms FCI Flechette Launcher

A flechette launcher shoots a special projectile toward a target. When the projectile is only a few meters from the target, the projectile explodes, releasing hundreds of razor-sharp flechettes, shredding objects unfortunate enough to be in the blast area. Projectiles come in anti-personnel and anti-vehicular flavors. This could be a very fun weapon to use as well, although I'm not sure that it feels like a Star Wars weapon.

 

Perhaps Wilhuf meant there was already a gun filling up the spot of multiple rapid fire. Also I dont know how they would work the whole exploding into hundreds of razors, sounds too damaging. And it doesnt really feel like it should be in JK2.

 

 

Wilhuf you mentioned this weapon:

BlasTech DLT-20A Pulse Cannon

Its Type: Blaster / Plasma

 

Vagabond wrote:

If any true Star Wars weapon screamed, "I am the real concussion rifle", this is it..... And you know if IG-88 used it, it's got to be bad. I'd love to see this gun make its way into JKII.

 

Perhaps one way to balance the larger guns would be to replace the concussion rifle with this gun in JK2. Its a weapon that sounds large enough to dish out some serious damage. Perhaps balance could be achieved through it, it would be able to be blocked by a saber as it is a Blaster/Plasma but you are not able to totally block it and a fraction of the normal damage gets through. It could be a splash weapon, as its plasma, so gunners can try for splash damage which would do more. But if a Jedi could get to it he could partially block it, some of the damage still getting through, this way its balanced for saberist and gunner.

Just an idea.

 

[ August 14, 2001: Message edited by: Syndrix ]

[Wilhuf]

Yes I'm thinking the flechette gun would be redundant to the repeater, acdcfanbill. Basically both act as a submachinegun type weapon. But it is true the gameplay would be different if using splash damaging explosive flechettes compared to non-explosive repeater rounds.

 

I'd rather see a hitscan nonsplash submachinegun type weapon (with a grenade launcher attached) Hopefully the saber can block repeater rounds (up to a point. A certain proportion of rounds should hit the target, just like any weapon against the Saber).

 

I agree, Syndrix, with Vagabond's original comment that the pulse cannon could be the Concussion Rifle replacement. The plasma rounds would issue splash damage.

 

Perhaps the plasma rounds could be blocked and defelected by Saber, or blocked (but not deflected) with partial damage going to the Saberist, as you've suggested. Splash of course wouldn't be blocked at all.

 

Although I really like the DLT-19 Heavy Blaster Rifle's looks. Looks like it could do real damage (looks sorta like the WW-II German MG-42, probably based on it. Hmm a machinegun converted to a rifle?).

 

The DLT-19 could be a high powered hitscan energy-based weapon that fires very powerful blaster rounds. Slow-moderate rate of fire, but medium to high damage. Saber blockable.

[Guest Krayt Tion]

From Vagabonds column:

Golan Arms FCI Flechette Launcher

A flechette launcher shoots a special projectile toward a target. When the projectile is only a few meters from the target, the projectile explodes, releasing hundreds of razor-sharp flechettes, shredding objects unfortunate enough to be in the blast area. Projectiles come in anti-personnel and anti-vehicular flavors. This could be a very fun weapon to use as well, although I'm not sure that it feels like a Star Wars weapon.

 

Wow. All of those projectiles are just not directly blockable by the saber alone. That would be a great anti-jedi weapon but we don't want gun dominance all over again. I would only include it if flechettes were very weak in nature, putting in the damage of, say, hundreds of swarming bees.

 

I also like the idea of putting in that plasma cannon, the BlasTech DLT-20A Pulse Cannon. Syndrix your reasoning looks pretty sound to me. The saber could block and deflect the plasma blast but a fraction of the damage would still get through, from kind of a mini-splash from the intial impact of the plasma burst against the saber as it is deflected.

 

I would also add that additional splash damage that you mentioned from shooting near the Jedi could have a very minimal radius, nothing near what the conc was capable of. Something between the splash of the Plasma Gun and BFG in Quake 3 could be a nice compromise in this regard.

 

The gunners would now be able to do low damage against a Jedi while he is blocking and low-moderate splash damage near the Jedi. All this instead of uber unblockable damage to the body of Jedi and high splash damage near the Jedi from the conc in JK2. Way more balanced imo.

 

I only see one problem to this. While the gameplay from this gun does appear pretty solid... Since the BlasTech DLT-20A Pulse Cannon is said to produce blaster/plasma fire this could be a reason for the plasma-ish shots to actually reflect off the saber (some sort of blaster/plasma hybrid fire). Normal plasma usually just splash-nails someone, the burst would lose its integrety and be non deflectable as it hit the saber. Perhaps this described hybrid fire of the gun (or does it just have two seperate ammo types it can fire?) could be an excuse to have it fire kind of a more powerful splash version of the secondary JK bowcaster fire, which is partially magnetically sealed to bounce around.

 

...So from the more important in this case 'gameplay side' I think the BlasTech DLT-20A Pulse Cannon is great.

 

The other matter for me is the believablity/makes sense factor which could still use some work...

 

A nice explosive projectile gun would be a nice compliment gameplay-wise to the BlasTech DLT-20A Pulse Cannon. I would make it something with more of an arc or slowness in its fire, either slower or a lot less straighter or limited in range then the rail.

 

Adding a grenade-type launcher to the reapter seems plausible to me. Only reason I would be wary of this is because the ability to fire repeater fire and grenades within milliseconds of each other might make this gun too powerful... The mp5 w/ grenade launcher was the weapon to have in half-life deathmatch, it was too uber. The Jedi shall be a bit more protected then your average gunner though.

 

Still, I might prefer a seperate gun that can only fire explosive type projectiles with the properties I mentioned earlier that would make it weaker then the rail.

[Guest Kurgan]

Actually it was quite funny to watch somebody try to shoot my saber with a repeater.. as I would block all of those fast flying shots.

 

And as long as you lined them up properly, three Stormtroopers shooting at me with their blaster rifles in SP was just as easily blocked.

 

Are you guys thinking maybe of the limited blocking ability of something like Jedi Power Battles?

 

Of course I could turn the tables on a saberist who thought they were going to block my repeater shots by using secondary fire on him. He wouldn't be able to block the SPREAD of three shots, and so I'd wear him down and he'd die, even if one of the shots was consistently directed back at me.

 

Also I got lots of kills on saberists with my ST rifle simply by crouching and firing at a key moment. CROTCH SHOT! as they like to say in UT.. ; )

 

Here's an idea I don't think has been mentioned.. have a heavy weapon that can be blocked by saber but will Not deflect (ie: it just fizzles out on the blade) and not as in an explosive, but like the plasma gun.

 

Say the saber just absorbs the energy from the shot and gives off sparks.

 

Kurgan

 

[ August 14, 2001: Message edited by: Kurgan ]