Tap[RR] Posted August 17, 2001 Share Posted August 17, 2001 I doubt its gonna be class based, but perhaps a player can only use the force when the saber is in hand? It seems that way in the video, although theres one confirming this, but still just look at the video. You'll see the force meter dissappear when he selects the gun and reappear when he brings out the saber. And i just want people to be able to kill a jedi with ANY gun, not just one heavy one like the conc or rail. Thats how i want it to be balanced Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KillerBee Posted August 17, 2001 Share Posted August 17, 2001 well I wouldnt mind either set up but straight DM less, due to the fact I want jk2 to be as far away from jk as possible in the same gendre.. class system ala AVP wif different class advantages, and items just for each class tho, and not mots is different spawn weapons and thats it basically. jedi should have a sabre and the force, and pick up boosts. a nice soldier class with similar functions to the marines. and then maybe a droid class or bounty hunter class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeathBoLT Posted August 17, 2001 Share Posted August 17, 2001 I could deal with class systems or with gun use depriving you of force. either way, I hope raven plays around with it so that its balanced. I don't want to see nothing but saberists, but I would like to see Jedi in FFAs holding their own agaisnt gunners; something that you wouldn't see in Jedi Knight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luck Posted August 17, 2001 Share Posted August 17, 2001 welllll, almost have to split this thread into 2 different categories, class based, and straight dm. Cause really, in class based yer dealing with a gazillion different issues the specifics of which we can't even touch. I'd like to see a class based add on for the game, like tfc or cs for hl. but i dunno if the initial release is gonna be class based, and they haven't really hinted that it will be... so ima keep talkin as if it were just dm we're discussing, not making any assumptions, its just that the conversation is *utterly* without ground if we're contemplating classes, cause we have *no* idea what those might be. If its straight dm, what i and apparently a few others are hoping for is a sort of 'vanilla' spectrum for the guns. They're all equally deadly, and all have different uses for different situations, but no one gun dominates the field. Which means the conc as it stands, would still rule a lot of ass on the saber. So obviously, the saber or the conc have to be tweaked a lil bit. even in client server mind u. Folks are having a tough time understanding that there will be a point to using anything other than a saber it seems. But, this game is gonna have guns, so they might as well be worth shootin off right? I think a lot of that stems from attitudes in JK land right now. Obviously, a melee weapon will get chewed by a long range, boom sort of gun. Sigh, i keep thinkin of things to preface this with, bare with me, im only a lil drunk at this point... We also seem to be assuming that we're going to be playing in a no force situation. In a ff type combat, especially with the forces we've seen so far, you'd be far from helpless beatin on someone with a conc, even if they had the same powers u did. So thats fine, lets just assume that, makes it easier. So for the sake of this one single post here, lets assume we aren't using force, and are just hopin around like madmen/gals with our lil flaming stick. Now since the netcode is client/server, the saber has already been delt a huge upgrade. All u have to do is hit what u see and there's no delay. [this is assuming the melee code isn't like rune's, cause if it is, there'll be a bit of that funkyness] Now we've got blasters, which are going to be blockable, but assuming auto block isn't ridiculously easy to use, yer still going to be able to slip shots by with precision shooting. So blasters and deflectable weapons will be okeb. Next we have thermals, which look to be deflectable too, but prolly to a lesser degree and they hopefully will pack a punch. Meaning they'll be a step up, but prolly not a huge one. Saber defense still holds up, but precision tossing and thoughtful placement will rule the day. Then we move on to explosive weapons. Seeing as how they go boom and will have splash damage, these will be a step up against the saber, but if the ones with *projectiles* work like the thermals, they'll also be able to be countered. So thats 90% of the field done, game looks balanced, even if all u have is yer stinkin match stick. So lets tackle that pesky and controversial conc. 1st off, we don't know if it will be in the game, 2nd, the shot prolly won't be deflectable. I don't have any qualms about leaving it out or replacing it, but, i think its fixable and can conform to the vanilla standard we set for this hypothetical dm type game. The conc is a long range weapon in both df/jk, however, almost all the weapons were long range. This could be changed if need be, and it would knock the conc down a notch. The conc is all mighty in JK/DF, but thats cause the guns were taken straight out of sp and not well balanced fer multi in the slightest. at least not in open spaces and with the netcode. Lots of things could change here, but in all seriousness, and im none too serious, the conc could easily be trimmed down in terms of damage, easy fix again. Again, we've gone thru blocking air, that seems preposterous. mebe with the force, but this is nf....sooo, no blockage of the bolt. This will most certainly give the conc a certain advantage over other guns. But we have 2 variables already to dink with in order to *balance* the game. Now in working within what we know of the conc, its a concusive explosion that bounces u around, we'd like to keep that bit in order to preserve the idea of the conc. Also the conc is great for jumps, but its difficult to use for them. This was one aspect of JK that was lil frustrating for a lot of gunners; conc jumping was a great trick, but none too valuable in game of ji oasis. too much damage, too difficult to do. Another thing i drunkenly left off last paragraph was that what was so utterly unique and intriguing about CONC JUMPING is that its a horizontal jump. In most other games, weapon jumping is vertical. In JK u could use the rail to go up, and the conc to go sideways. great fun. So I say that the splash and the kick needs to be preserved to preserve this fundamental, but difficult to achieve aspect of the concussion rifle. That elims 2 variables for balancing that a few folks had mentioned earlier. I venture to say that they've never enjoyed jumping from the top of the health ramp to the bridge to the conc room to the bridge and back to the health room in one fell swoop with one fell vest. [yes snicker, i apologize fro messupeditudeness] So what we're left with is a) range, and b) damage. Both of which could be easily tweaked into vanilla/cafe mocha range without screwing the conc up too much. And basically this process applies to all guns. When u figure u want a minimum effectiveness of *any* weapon vrs another of about 2-5 in terms of success; attackee vrs defense or vice versa [3-5 would get a lil slow, but thats the developers perogative and ill live with it], u get a 'vanilla' range that will let u do some damage and have a lil fun with any one of the 10 or so weapons they toss our way. Anyhow, thats my piece of pie on the balancing/effectiveness of saber issue. I think that preserving the fundamentals of the weapons yer putting in the game when balancing, as opposed to looking for quick fixes like being able to block *everything* is very important to the games success. [sucess, success, they both look screwy to me..] And if they do decide to leave the conc out this round, by god they had better put somthing in that lets u do a horizontal jump. I think ill go start a thread tomorow on weapon jumping just so they don't miss that. I'll beg for a response from raven so i know they caught it too, im shamelss =P gah too lazy to hit backspace... Lucky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlowbieOne Posted August 17, 2001 Share Posted August 17, 2001 http://www.lucasarts.com/e3/seven/images/screen6s.gif[/img When I first looked at this pic, I thought Kyle was pulling a gun. When I zoomed in, I couldn't believe he was pulling the Jedi saber. PULL SABERS? Could that mean use could possibly use double sabers? By the way, anyone know why the image didn't show up here? [ August 17, 2001: Message edited by: SlowbieOne ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GonkH8er Posted August 17, 2001 Share Posted August 17, 2001 you forgot the ] on the end of the /img tag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syndrix Posted August 17, 2001 Share Posted August 17, 2001 There is no reason to assume that Kyle is pulling the saber. It is just as likely that the dark Jedi is catching it. Actually now that I look at the picture in full resolution its more likely. If you look the saber is directly above his palm, as if he is going to catch it, looks like its on a vertical path, where as if it was being pulled it would be going horizontal, straight towards Kyle. [ August 17, 2001: Message edited by: Syndrix ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlowbieOne Posted August 17, 2001 Share Posted August 17, 2001 Ya, I still say Kyle is pulling the saber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syndrix Posted August 17, 2001 Share Posted August 17, 2001 I forgot to mention, I like the idea of a Saberist only having access to force powers, that way the guns can be powerful enough but the saberist has somewhat of a counter within blocking and the force. Also there would only be guns/saberist division of the community, and not FF/NF, I would prefer it if the JK2 community was not divided by force as JK way... but if it happens again oh well. The reason being no force division would be saberists would be too weak without the force, thus Raven wouldnt include NF mode at all. No division of force. And if they could balance guns against saber and force, no division at all, perfection! (perhaps) I dont know if this sounds right though, a Saberist shouldnt have to constantly rely on the force when facing a gunner. Anyway my point was if Raven was thinking of doing this they hadnt included it in the E3 demo. Sure the force meter disappears to make way for the gun ammo, but with blaster in hand he still manages to force push a couple of Stormtroopers off the edge into a void. [ August 17, 2001: Message edited by: Syndrix ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wardz Posted August 17, 2001 Share Posted August 17, 2001 If you look in one of the previews it says it got HIT out, damn i cant remember which one, try the one JAMES said.. Dont quote me on that though i think it may have been hit.. wardz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syndrix Posted August 17, 2001 Share Posted August 17, 2001 Your not refering to the fact that if you throw your saber at another saberist he knocks it out of the air, are you Wardz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wardz Posted August 17, 2001 Share Posted August 17, 2001 oh yeh, that might be it. cheers But that could be the case here.. wardz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tap[RR] Posted August 17, 2001 Share Posted August 17, 2001 In many of the previews they have stated that the saber can be hit outta your hands, and someone mentioned in the e3 video that the dark jedi's saber get knocked out and he/she has to run forward, retrieve it and then ignites it. ( hard to see, but its the only explaination on why the dark jedi needs to reignite his/her saber ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syndrix Posted August 17, 2001 Share Posted August 17, 2001 I have seen the E3 video where the dark jedi's saber get knocked out and its hand. Then it has to run forward, retrieve it and ignites it. But that doesnt mean thats whats happening in the screen shot. Kyle isnt attacking, and also the Dark Jedi's head is facing his hand, as if its coming back and he's watching to catch it, not getting knocked away or pulled up. If you watch the E3 footage, Kyle is up close and personal when he knocks it out, but in the screen shot he is far back. At the speed he knocks it away at, the saber in the screen shot wouldnt be so close to the Dark Jedi's hand if it had been knocked out and then Kyle ran back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilhuf Posted August 17, 2001 Author Share Posted August 17, 2001 I think the dark jedi is just flipping the unignited saber handle in his hand. One preview mentioned that Kyle will do this on occasion. Probably just a cosmetic animation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainRAVE Posted August 18, 2001 Share Posted August 18, 2001 Yea, just to enhance gameplay just that little extra ...nice touch though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KillerBee Posted August 18, 2001 Share Posted August 18, 2001 the problem with vanilla dm, is that a close range weapons use is limited.. if you are spotted out of range then due to the fact that people move at near enough the same rate, a gunner running backwards will never come in range of the weapon. to my mind the class system is the only way to get jedi and non jedi to work together, and to have the sabre as people want it, as a powerful weapon. a melee weapons just not got the usefulness. in ff jk its rarely used, and sabre kills are usually counted as freaky. (well cept the odd grip slash.. but then thats usually pointless, a good rail wif grip brings lighties down much better, as long as you get him rapidly) its a desperation thing, or ffas where pull is used all the time. but the force was the main weapon in jk. class base is the only way of stopping jk2 forming a segregated community to the extent of jk.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlowbieOne Posted August 18, 2001 Share Posted August 18, 2001 After seeing it again, I think your right. The lightsaber is coming back to him after he threw it. But still, I wonder if you can pick up the opponents lightsaber if you knock it out of the air. Or will it be "Off Limits"? Both ways would be fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luck Posted August 18, 2001 Share Posted August 18, 2001 balance range with damage and it solves yer problem. The trick is to make it so that every gun/weapon u pick up has an equal chance of trashing on every other weapon, reguardless of whether there is force or not involved. I was too messed up to get that out last night, but essentially, if u balance the guns with vanilla in mind, any balanced variables u add to the game afterwards aren't going to unbalance it. So add as many force powers as u want, the *weapons* will still be balanced in relationship to eachother. Are u saying that the saber should be made the most powerful weapon in the game kb? Meaning that u spawn with the most powerful weapon in the game? there'd be no point in including guns. It should either be less powerful because u spawn with it, or equally powerful. If u make one gun dominate, it'll do just that, and yer initial complaint will return and step on yer saberin toes. A class based system deserves its own thread. Conversation would get too convoluted as its already starting to. Lucky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeathBoLT Posted August 18, 2001 Share Posted August 18, 2001 it depends if the saber is knocked from your hand easily; if you lose your saber after losing 30 health it would suck to have the bastard pull your saber thats lying on the ground into a pitfall thus leaving you unarmed. if saber loss only occurs when u hit them in the arm or randomly katarn trips and drops his saber, then you ought to be able to yank their saber off into a pitfall. lucky, i think discussing how classes will affect the lightsaber/gun balance(which is what this thread was meant to cover) is perfectly fine here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luck Posted August 18, 2001 Share Posted August 18, 2001 first have to decide what the classes are, what limitations and advantages they'll have. Thats a pretty big job fer us on a thread thats not dealing with classes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WD_ToRMeNt Posted August 18, 2001 Share Posted August 18, 2001 Heh this post is entirely to long. Half of it is people quoting other people lol. Anyway, there is no reason why a person holding a gun shouldn't be able to use force. If you watch the E3 demo, the guy force pushes 2 STs off a ledge while holding a ST Rifle. Seriously, why do you think Raven has decided to include a "sabers only" option? Use it if you love sabs, but don't whine if you get blasted on a server that allows heavy guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KillerBee Posted August 18, 2001 Share Posted August 18, 2001 Lucky I am not saying the sabre should be the most powerful.. I am saying in vanilla dm a melee weapons really going to be limited in use. unless they make the levels incredibly tight, which would to my mind ruin the SW flavour.. If the dm was ala jk, with forces guns and sabres used, the best medium combat weapon would end up tops. jk would be too fast for a good railing match, and close range match ups would be limited to random swinging.. You also get the divided community syndrome wif nf sabsters bitching at ff gunners, and ff gunners bitching at nf gunners etc etc. and everyone getting called a newbie If you could only use the force with the abre out, It would work but to my mind would suck to hell, its just plain broke total bs.. A nice class based system could be great tho. melee weapons with a speed advantage works. cause you dont get the limitations of the gunner simply running away at the same rate laughing at the sabrest and blowing him away. the force would make up for the basic flaws of the sabre. but as soon as you get faster classes using guns you ruin the sabres ability.. its similar to avp, marines could kill a alien quick with long ranged guns, but the alien got a speed advantage and melee weapons. the balance wasnt perfect (mainly due to the st00pid predators disk) but it was workable.. Even if you make the sabre instant kill with a decent range, it wont let you beat anyone with decent wits, and some splash weapon. unless you close up all the levels which would lead to a loss of the sw feel. ohh and I agree, a thread just on class based ideas would be good. [ August 18, 2001: Message edited by: KillerBee ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syndrix Posted August 18, 2001 Share Posted August 18, 2001 Posted by Torment Seriously, why do you think Raven has decided to include a "sabers only" option? Use it if you love sabs, but don't whine if you get blasted on a server that allows heavy guns. Well, I'd like to think that it is because Raven have added more to the saber and if you want to become skilled with it before taking on a gunner you could fight with other saberists only. This may not be true but it is plausable Why exactly do you want to play JK2 anyway torment, with you unbending views you may as well play JK so you can be l33+. Critisism is one thing but you sound like you just want a JK clone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KillerBee Posted August 18, 2001 Share Posted August 18, 2001 <shudder> dont talk of straight jk clones.. if jk2 ends up a clone of jk I will be **very** upset.. as it would to mind be totally unable to compete with the original jk. with all its bugs and gimmicks.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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