no automapping

[Vagabond]

ed_silvergun, I disagree with your assessment of the abilities of Jedi perception.

 

For instance, I just finished watching The Phantom Menace on DVD. Recall the scene where the Jedi Council is testing young Anakin by having him name the shapes that appear on a hidden monitor. The young and untrained boy names every image correctly. If a person who is in tune with the Force can specifically identify electronic images, than locating life forces would be similar, if not easier, in difficulty.

 

Further, recall in Return of the Jedi when Luke dreads that he's endangered the mission because "Vader is on that ship".

 

Or how about in The Empire Strikes Back, when Luke, hanging from the bottom of Cloud City, calls out to Leia, and she leads Chewie to rescue Luke.

 

And then there is the scene from A New Hope, when Vader first announces that he senses the presence of his old master, and later pre-positions himself between Obi-Wan and the Falcon.

 

I could go on, but I think the point has been made. No, I disagree, ed_silvergun. The preponderance of film evidence demonstrates that a Jedi can use the Force to specify the exact location of life forces. Similarly, the movies also demonstrate how, with effort, one can cloak oneself from detection.

 

Again, I feel that the Force See technique implemented in Jedi Knight & Mysteries of the Sith was superb, and if a similar ability is to be made available in JKII, then it should work at least as well as JK/MotS. Right now I'm having a difficult time envisioning a new Force See method that will work as smooth and seemlessly as that one used in JK/MotS.

[Dirth Vedar]

well, I don't see why force see must be on the map, what if it's just like a radar, like tie fighter or other space shooter, where you have a mini radar thing on the corner of the screen that shows the relative positions of everything. It's probably not as informative as the map, but I think it'll be a nice compromise. Besides, everyone should have the map memorized right??

[digl]

Jedi can even know what people thinks sometimes

Remember Vader "escape is not his plan, I must face him...alone" He knows what OW wants to happen

 

But they cant do this always, they dont even always sense other Jedi, OW and Qui-gon are both times surprised by maul, they dont sense where he is and what he will do. Maybe some kind of cloak power could be in the game(if some sort of seeing or danger sense is in) so that you could not be detected for a short period of time

[bsbuckeye21]

I've made a mock-up of what I'm talking about in Photoshop. I would post it, but Brinkster's not working for me! Email me if you can host it for me. Thanks.

 

bradsinger@hotmail.com

[Vagabond]

Dirth, please re-read my previous post where I reiterated that the reason for the map is not because anyone is concerned about getting lost in the map.

 

digl, yes, like I said previously, there does appear to be the ability to cloak oneself from the Force, notably those using the Dark Side. I would expect a Jedi could do this as well, but it seems to be a technique employed by both Darth Sidious and Darth Maul in The Phantom Menace.

 

In any event, it is my belief that a Force See power that allows the user to specify the exact location of individuals has been established in the movies. Further, I believe that a Force See power should be in JKII, and it should work at least as well and unobtrusive as the one from Jedi Knight / Mysteries of the Sith.

[StormHammer]

I have to agree with you, Vagabond. I can't really see a more effective way of sensing where people are going to be other than Force See, whether it's in tandem with an automap (that we now know will not be in the game), or by seeing some kind of life energy through walls (a bit like infra-red, maybe).

 

I think the radar idea that has been mentioned might work as a last resort, though. I imagine it would not give the actual structure through which you are walking/running, but it could identify the location of life energy. I suppose it would work in a similar fashion to the device used in AvP, but without the beeps. Of course, such a system could never be as effective as Force See with the automap... The problem is that a visual radar should not be too intrusive on the screen when activated.

 

Again, all I can say is that if there is no Force See at all, the game mechanics are simply going to fall in line with most other FPS games on the market...which would be a step backward, IMHO. One of the major elements that set JK/MotS apart from the generic FPS was it's sheer range and type of Force abilities. Limiting those abilities would limit choice, and drastically redefine how the game must be played.

 

Of course, we are not yet aware of the full range of features the game will contain, but as more information is released, it is becoming apparent that JKII is going to be a different kind of game to it's predecessor. Whether this is a good or bad thing can only be decided by playing a demo...so it becomes ever more important for that demo to allow you access to most of the functionality of the game in order to make an informed judgement.

[bsbuckeye21]

This is what I'm thinking it should look like:

 

 

A stormie behind the back door is now apparent. An example of how this'd work when half of an enemy is in view and the other half isn't is demonstrated on the stormie on the right hand side doorway. Nifty, eh?

 

Raven, in the slight chance that you like this idea and you'd use it, you have full permission by me to use it without any compensation. (But a free copy of JK2 wouldn't be bad. )

 

(Ok, toning down ego now...)

 

And a big thanks goes out to StormHammer for hosting the image! (Brinkster tech support still hasn't gotten back. )

[wardz]

I like that! I've been lurking but I had to post

 

Thats a good idea, It'd be good for MP too, in CS its always well difficult to see who is on whos side. So If it has no glow then its a friend, but if it does then its a foe..

 

n1 buckeye, its not too obtrusive on the eye either.

 

 

wardz

[Vagabond]

Fair idea, bucky, but there is one downside to this method. The further away a life force is from your character, the less visible it will be to you. This is because the highlighting is proportional to the relative size of the life force. Imagine how big the highlight would be when illuminating a hidden target that is, say, 50 meters away. It would be scarcely a speck, and yet such a relatively close life force should be quite easy for a Jedi to detect.

 

This is another advantage to using the overhead map method, which will apparently be absent due to the limitations of the Q3 engine.

 

And as Stormy pointed out, without the reference of the map outlines, an overhead radar-type display of life forces would be far less valuable. Is that target 5 meters away or 50?

[Agen]

good idea bucky but what about u can set what range u want to see like 1-10 or 50-60 and thing but it's not very jedish but it makes it so liek u cannot concetrate on everthin at one time

[Dirth Vedar]

With the glow, it looks very nice, and I think it's a very clean way of implementing it. It's the first thing I thought about when the discussion of force seeing without automap first began. But I realize that the idea, though slick, and nice looking, probably wouldn't replace the original map way. Other than the point that things far away are small (though certainly bigger than a dot on a map), the bigger problem is that you still can't see behind you. With a radar style, although it looks ugly, you can see in 360 degrees, with this glow, you'll see everything in front of you better, but if you're being ambushed by 20 storm troopers from behind, you're still screwed, plus you can use the overhead cam to plan escape routes or whatever. So though I love the idea, I am certain there'll be die hard force see fans that'll grumble about it. Besides, how many people would invest 3 points in force see to see some storm trooper glow behind a door? Okay... I don't know how many, maybe there'll be enough people who find it useful... but still... not quite the omniscient power that it once was.

[StormHammer]

Originally posted by Vagabond

And as Stormy pointed out, without the reference of the map outlines, an overhead radar-type display of life forces would be far less valuable. Is that target 5 meters away or 50?

 

Well, the distance problem might be overcome by using concentric bands of set limits, like 5, 10, 15 metres within the radar visualisation. Life energies could be colour coded, so you can at least see the direction of friend or foe. Having said that, it is probably dubious that even a radar would make it into the game...it's not that far removed from an overhead outline map, after all. If there is no automap...why include a radar?

 

Something like buckeye suggested may be a more viable visual option, but as you pointed out, it would have very restricted use due to the size reduction of life-forms over distance.

 

In addition to that...you could be seeing so many foes, etc., that you cannot see the wood for the trees...you end up with information overload. I would suspect that any system they implemented along these lines would have to have a radius of functionality - maybe a limit of 50 metres, perhaps. However, within that 50 metre radius you could have 40-50 foes all around you, at varying distances, and it would be very hard to tell the exact distances as the colour-coded shapes merge into one another. You would get closer foes overlaying more distant foes, so it could potentially become unmanageable at best...and create horrendous framerate drops at worst.

 

As indicated before, there does not seem to be a clean-cut solution to replace the combination of automap with Force Seeing.

 

At the moment, I cannot really see any system being implemented to replace this combination, hence my concern.

 

buckeye...you're welcome

[acdcfanbill]

well, it looks similar to the aura that the alien sees...

 

this could work though, to see far away enimies, maybe the aura could start close, highlighting those enemies/objects and quickly move away to a max distance of say 50 meters... only about a 5 meter width would be highlighted at a time, it could take, i dunno, 2 sec to move in concentric outward circles to the edge of your sight, maybe the distance would depend on what lvl of force you were on. and the distance would depend on the brightness of the hue....

[digl]

I wonder what Raven guys think of all this

Is this already solved, even before they announced the non existance of the map?

Or maybe they just realized with this thread that they "must do something quickly"

KISS Army? MRJ? I know you are there, I can sense your presence

[bsbuckeye21]

Dirth Vedar, first I was gonna say something snippy like: "Why don't you just turn around?", but you're right about having a "sense" because you're a Jedi. Hmm... yet another problem. I would be satisfied if the enemies' "glow" would be apparent on your back and getting along fine without eyes in the back of my head.

 

About the distance issue: If the enemies are that far away, then they're pretty far away. I don't want to be too smug playing an FPS. That'd just bog the system down anyway if something was glowing on the otherside of the level. What are you gonna do? Get out a particular weapon for the enemy on the other side of the level, and just disregard the enemies that are firing at you right now? I would have enough to worry about just a room or two over.

 

I hope your sense is extra-strong, digl.

[StormHammer]

Hmmm...maybe I didn't explain my point clearly enough.

 

Let's say you see the glow of an enemy 5 metres away behind a door. You open the door...and find a whole column of 20 Stormtroopers, one behind the other. You would not have been able to see them all, because the Stormy at the front of the column blocked all the others from view. So instead of facing 1 enemy, you are facing 20.

 

Now, with an automap, and Force See, you would be able to see all 20 of those Stormies in a line, and have time to prepare yourself.

 

See the difference? In other words, you are getting a false reading, and so the feature becomes worthless.

[digl]

dont worry bsbuckeye21, the force is strong with me

 

I think you should somehow detect enemies far away, to avoid snipers.Of course snipers should have the ability to "force cloak" also. Here the mana that the powers use and the time they last should balance things out

[Nemios]

I would be satisfied if there are arrows-like object around the screen flashing more quickly when enemies are near you. Remember X-Wing Alliance, the little yellow arrow pointing to the target? Maybe the more you are experienced in that power the more arrows could appear. There should be a limit to the arrows you can see and those should point to the most near enemies. Walls or enemies behind you aren't problems in this way. Obviously this isn't as efficient as automap+see but we already know automap isn't present so complain is useless. Plus I don't like the idea of a radar (even if in MotS because of really dark levels I constantly used automap+see).

[Lord_FinnSon]

Well, I like the glow thing, because it's much more in the right way, but perhaps it should be applied only to enemies, who are behind the wall in the nearest room. And I'm just talking about "smaller" enemies like stormtroopers; fully trained Dark/Light Jedis and Sith Lords should never be seen in advance, because they can hide their presence, if needed to. Luke(in the movies) wasn't exactly fully trained in the way Old Republic's Jedi were, so he couldn't even hide his feelings from Vader or Emperor; Obi-Wan revealed his presence intentionally to Vader in ANH, because he knew he should confront him again and in TPM Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon didn't exactly expect to ram into Maul.

[nykel007]

Bucky, that's exactly how I envisioned Force Seeing to be like. I hope that it is implemented somehow. Also there cold be a small 3d map in the upper corner like RougeSqud. for us to see far off enemies.

[ed_silvergun]

Vagabond, you make a number of very good points, and whilst I don't agree with all your specific examples from the films, I think, on reflection, you're probably right about the automap/seeing combination being the best in-game implementation of the Jedi's extra-sensory powers that we're likely to get.

 

I have to say, I find it hard to believe that Q3 tech prohibits the implementation of an automap feature. Does anyone have any more specific info on why this is?

[digl]

Its probably possible to implement that feature in the Q3 engine somehow, but either they came up with a different kind of seeing, or they were just too lazy to put it in (that would be a really big mistake, that they would notice reading this thread)

[StephenG]

Originally posted by nykel007

Bucky, that's exactly how I envisioned Force Seeing to be like. I hope that it is implemented somehow. Also there cold be a small 3d map in the upper corner like RougeSqud. for us to see far off enemies.

 

thats a good idea bsbuckeye21 & nykel007. there should be a small map like RougeSqud that should only near bad guys, friendies etc. i like this idea more than the automap thing.

[Vagabond]

StephenG, and some of the others who seem indifferent to the apparent absence of the automap / Force See combination from JKII - I ask you to not take this the wrong way, but have any of you actually played Jedi Knight / MotS multiplay with Force See as implemented in those games? My reason for asking is because some of your comments lead me to believe that perhaps you have never truly realized the power and uniqueness that their combination brought to the gaming world.

 

True, there are some veteran JK players that appear to be content with the loss of this power, and they are entitled to their educated opinions. However, if one has not experienced something, how can one offer an informed opinion on that subject?

 

If you have extensively used Force See in Jedi Knight / MotS multiplay, then please accept my apologies for my false perception.

[StephenG]

force seeing was one of the most overlooked powers in JK. ok so most of as here did u it (for the record i did you it with the automap feature) but then again alot of JK players didn't. i reckon that using force seeing with the automap gave to much away for me...it didn't feel right to me. Kyle isn't a full Jedi and i dont think he should beable to sence badguys that are soo far away from him. that why i said the Rogue Squ radar thing was a great idea, fits Kyle like my boots fits my feet. with this feature you see baddies within a certin raduis and as his skill grows the raduis increases in size.

 

Originally posted by ed_silvergun

I have to say, I find it hard to believe that Q3 tech prohibits the implementation of an automap feature. Does anyone have any more specific info on why this is?

 

no, automap thing can be put into Q3 engine, it just takes time. it Valve software can put HLTV in the old half-life enigne (half-life engine = modified quake1 with some quake 2 code) then Raven can do it with the Q3 engine