This is Sad (All Please Read)

[Twins of Doom]

THERE IS MORE THAN ONE ****ING TYPE OF SCRIPT YOU IDIOTS!!!!

some are cheating, some are not!

 

if your gunna call me a moron, don't expect me NOT to react.

 

ALL i'm trying to say is that scripts are NOT STRATEGY, they are SCRIPTING, and when we're talking about them being cheap obviously you haven't been reading what i've been saying, i'll say it again

 

THERE IS MORE THAN ONE ****ING TYPE OF SCRIPT

[Jevesus]

Of course there are more than one type of script, thats my point in its entirety.

 

But, you just a few posts ago agreed to intoxictd's post in which he completely states scripting to be a phenomenon of evil.

There is no talk of "some scripts", there is complete and utter generalization of all scripts that "scripts moves" (such as my take-a-bow script).

This is how you contradict yourself over and over, and over again.

[knyte]

Jevesus I find it amusing that you use the term "evil" extremely often and youre the one with a sith lord for a picture....

 

Lets look at this from a different angle... Im sure most of you have heard of small mod for Half-Life called Counter-Strike? Well, in almost ALL PRO/league games of CS scripts are against the rules in any form. You are not allowed to have any equipment buying scripts, movements scripts or basically anything resembling multiple commands set to one key.

 

Does anyone know WHY scripts are not allowed in tournament games? It has something to do with those crazy people that make the tournament rules saying that it gives players who use them an unfair advantage. Those crazy ass rule-makers, when will they learn.

 

Also, Jevesus, you use a big vocabulary trying to add weight to a thin arguement, its not working.

 

Twins you are my god.

[Blank1234]

"Well, in almost ALL PRO/league games of CS scripts are against the rules in any form."

 

Just like to point out, that not all pro-game/leagues follow that same code of rules. AFAIK, igl allows scripts in all of the games it hosts (jk2 included). TFC league games are almost notorious for their rocket/gernade jump scripts. Quake3 included.

 

You show me one league that doesn't allow scripts, I'll ramble off 10 leagues/tournies that do.

 

The simple fact is, everyone has access to scripts. It's not an unfair advantage if you decide not to utilize it. If you want to talk about unfair advantages, how about the kid who's playing on a geforce 1, with a modem on a crappy ISP connection because he can't afford a geforce4 with a dsl connection. He doesn't have the money to upgrade, so he's at a disadvantage vrs the cable/dsl user. Atleast that aspect of the game is out of his control. Anyone can script.

 

In my mind, complaining about scripts is the equivilant to complaining about being pushed/pulled into a pit. You have access to these moves (to do it before your opponent does, or have the points in the skill to help counter the movement effect) but instead of utilizing them (or their counters) you complain about them.

 

Oh well. It's pretty clear no side is going to convince the other about the rights and wrongs of scripting. In all likely hood, scripting will remain on this board. Maybe someone could write a script to bypass posts that have the words "script" found in them

 

Blank

[knyte]

That hardware comparison of yours is like me saying its not fair that I cant run my Toyota Camry in a Formula 1 road race.

[JaraDaj]

knyte, would you call that fair? I wouldn't mind if you tried it....but don't think you will get sponsers.

 

 

I spend my energy trying to teach people to have an open mind... Ignoring ignorance is just as bad as being ignorant... how else will we banish racism? This is a small form of it.... like the media says that hackers are bad... i've never met a "bad" hacker.... i've met idiot kids who think they are hackers, but they aren't. They generalize with the word hacker becuase it's "cool". I bet most of you people don't even know what a hacker is. You got your definition from the media. They are wrong. Hell hackers made the internet. Hackers made the analog modem.

 

This is the same, you think scripts mean cheats.... Or atleast the majority of you do. Amazing that most of you speak english and still don't know the meaning of some of the words you use.

[zenroth]

Out of all of this I think leelink pointed out the only really usefull information in all of the posts. The script he described is pretty basic, to script or last I did scripting it would be, and is very open to abuse. That script would be a definte unfair advantage against another player.

 

Now does this mean scripts should be considered cheating? Well no it doesnt. It just really means someone should restrict the ability to change yawspeed and mouse sensitivity and a few other variables via scripting. Everything else I think is pretty much ok.

 

And scripts arent perfect they dont adapt well to lag, and other interferance.

[Blank1234]

"Out of all of this I think leelink pointed out the only really usefull information in all of the posts. The script he described is pretty basic, to script or last I did scripting it would be, and is very open to abuse. That script would be a definte unfair advantage against another player. "

 

lol. By chance you grip a guy who has absorb (or just gets lucky with a push/pull). You're stuck spinning around like a mental patient for the next 3+ seconds while the guy calmly walks up to you, pulls you to your feet, and backstabs. Nice script.

 

 

Blank

[Jevesus]

Originally posted by knyte

Jevesus I find it amusing that you use the term "evil" extremely often and youre the one with a sith lord for a picture....

 

Lets look at this from a different angle... Im sure most of you have heard of small mod for Half-Life called Counter-Strike? Well, in almost ALL PRO/league games of CS scripts are against the rules in any form. You are not allowed to have any equipment buying scripts, movements scripts or basically anything resembling multiple commands set to one key.

 

Does anyone know WHY scripts are not allowed in tournament games? It has something to do with those crazy people that make the tournament rules saying that it gives players who use them an unfair advantage. Those crazy ass rule-makers, when will they learn.

 

Also, Jevesus, you use a big vocabulary trying to add weight to a thin arguement, its not working.

 

Twins you are my god.

 

side note: i use my vocabulary because it is my vocabulary. i love languages, especially the english one. if mine is bigger than yours, dont give me crap for it.

 

now, for my real answer.

 

scripts, even for buying ammo, in CS tournaments are NOT prohibited because they are "unfair", but rather because that if "surtain" scripts were allowed, and "surtain" others were not then the holder of the event would have to go through each and every players script setup which is a tonne of work. as if this would not be enough, a lot of the time there would be scripts that are borderline "fair" and borderline "unfair" which extends the work even further as a judgement has to be made.

 

scripts in, for instance, CPL, are prohibited because one assumes that skilled players will be able to play the game "as is" AND because the CPL does not need the massive amount of extra work.

the allow/dont allow scripts debate was a big focus in the CS community when CPL had CS become a CPL event, thus therefore i know the reasons for the prohibition of them. anyone else remember this aswell?

[JaraDaj]

yea, i remember that... they didn't even like custom sprites (crosshairs). At tournaments we would have to install the game, fresh. Every match we would have to install a fresh copy of the game. It sucked. Then there were those who used controllers that let you bind keys, and those were said to be unfair. I have a nostromo, and a boomslang. Both of which i can bind basically anything to. My mouse let's me adjust the sensitivity on the fly, so instead of buying another mouse, i said screw it and left the scene. CK3 Forever.... i hear they are coming back.

[C'jais]

Originally posted by Jevesus

scripts, even for buying ammo, in CS tournaments are NOT prohibited because they are "unfair", but rather because that if "surtain" scripts were allowed, and "surtain" others were not then the holder of the event would have to go through each and every players script setup which is a tonne of work. as if this would not be enough, a lot of the time there would be scripts that are borderline "fair" and borderline "unfair" which extends the work even further as a judgement has to be made.

 

scripts in, for instance, CPL, are prohibited because one assumes that skilled players will be able to play the game "as is" AND because the CPL does not need the massive amount of extra work.

the allow/dont allow scripts debate was a big focus in the CS community when CPL had CS become a CPL event, thus therefore i know the reasons for the prohibition of them. anyone else remember this aswell?

 

As far as I know, you just said yourself that some scripts are unfair...

 

Of course scripts themselves aren't bad/evil/sh!T or whatever, but some scripts give an "unfair advantage" to those using it over those not using it. Of course, you could argue that every one has access to them, but I'd say it's such a hidden part of this game that most new players doesn't even know of their existence and never get to. Nowhere is the manual are they mentioned as far as I know. Most players are playing this game "as is" and expect to face the same from other players.

When a player arrives on the scene with a "lunge-script", he can do a lunge without spending the extra splitseconds like his opponent and takes off some of his workload on his fingers.

 

This debate boils down to accepting that every can use scripts if they want and that, since everyone has access to them, it's equally fair. I think the current playerbase doesn't know the "how to" and "why" of scripts, but some people may disagree and I respect that. I'll say that scripts aren't an "official" part of the game so to speak, and that it shouldn't be taken for granted as such. Just my opinion though.

 

LOL, I can just imagine a worse community than this: The CS-Community! Chock full of 13 year olds blowing prepubescent steam off at every one and their best friends dog....

[Jevesus]

Originally posted by cjais

 

As far as I know, you just said yourself that some scripts are unfair...

 

i absolutely did, i dont promote using scripts that exploit weaknesses in the game design. but i would never ever claim that "scripters" in general are lazy/dumb/morons/whatever. they are not.

 

Originally posted by cjais

Of course scripts themselves aren't bad/evil/sh!T or whatever, but some scripts give an "unfair advantage" to those using it over those not using it. Of course, you could argue that every one has access to them, but I'd say it's such a hidden part of this game that most new players doesn't even know of their existence and never get to. Nowhere is the manual are they mentioned as far as I know. Most players are playing this game "as is" and expect to face the same from other players.

When a player arrives on the scene with a "lunge-script", he can do a lunge without spending the extra splitseconds like his opponent and takes off some of his workload on his fingers.

 

"New players"? Would those be the players that have never played any other game based on an engine that in whole or in part derive from a Quake engine? That rules out any player that is acquainted with Quake, Quake2, Half-Life (and CounterStrike), Quake3, RTCW or MoHAA, just to name a few. In fact, if you have previously played any of the most popular online games you are already initiated to the concept of scripting.

 

Regardless, even if you somehow managed to avoid these games, or the concept of scripting, it is still not an "unfair" advantage per se. Others lack of knowledge cannot be blamed on the players with it. Still, if I ruled the world game designers would not leave games open to any exploits, including script-based exploits.

 

Originally posted by cjais

This debate boils down to accepting that every can use scripts if they want and that, since everyone has access to them, it's equally fair. I think the current playerbase doesn't know the "how to" and "why" of scripts, but some people may disagree and I respect that. I'll say that scripts aren't an "official" part of the game so to speak, and that it shouldn't be taken for granted as such. Just my opinion though.

 

Scripts are most definately an "official" part of the game, most definately. Please, if you can, try to refute that.

And before you go there: a scripting manual is not included with every single copy of the game because that would be an economic insanity.

 

Originally posted by cjais

LOL, I can just imagine a worse community than this: The CS-Community! Chock full of 13 year olds blowing prepubescent steam off at every one and their best friends dog....

 

Well I have to agree that the CS community is the internet at it's worst.

[C'jais]

Originally posted by Jevesus

"New players"? Would those be the players that have never played any other game based on an engine that in whole or in part derive from a Quake engine? That rules out any player that is acquainted with Quake, Quake2, Half-Life (and CounterStrike), Quake3, RTCW or MoHAA, just to name a few. In fact, if you have previously played any of the most popular online games you are already initiated to the concept of scripting.

Regardless, even if you somehow managed to avoid these games, or the concept of scripting, it is still not an "unfair" advantage per se. Others lack of knowledge cannot be blamed on the players with it. Still, if I ruled the world game designers would not leave games open to any exploits, including script-based exploits.

Scripts are most definately an "official" part of the game, most definately. Please, if you can, try to refute that.

And before you go there: a scripting manual is not included with every single copy of the game because that would be an economic insanity.

 

 

Now, I have played nearly all of the above games, and never knew that you could such things with scripts. I haven't got any spiffy numbers, but most (=nearly all) of multiplayer gamers haven't got a clue about what scripts do, don't just think about the hardcore players here - newbs are abound.

 

And it isn't an "official" part of those games, if you ask your standard, average gamer, he *might* know what a script can do, but he sure as hell won't be able to make one - besides a taunt or txt-bind mayhaps.

 

Most people here go to great lengths to explain that nearly no one knows a script really *is*, and what it really can do - and what it can't do. That ultimately reveals that most people in this forum clearly doesn't know sh*t about scripts.

 

So what you're saying is that: some scripts can be unfairly exploited, but scripting in itself isn't bad. It appears we are in absolute agreement.

 

BTW, I probably won't be posting in this thread anymore because this topic is getting extremely silly right now. It feels, yet again, like beating a dead horse.

[Alexandrus]

Heck, if can't do a move/combo on your own why not script it ? Or maybe you want to stop your adversary for a bit, script a skin change and while his computer loads(1second or so) finish him. Or maybe you can't use force and saber move very fast, script that too, what's wrong with that ?

If you guys see what's wrong than you definitely are not a cheap lamer, otherwise........

 

And yeah yeah yeah, scripts are part of the game blah blah, very usefull blah blah. If you actually think that game developers intended for ppl to script than you really ARE a lamer. Just so happnes that I have a friend working for a company that creates games, and trust me, nobody wants more fairplay than those guys that create the games.

[Jevesus]

Originally posted by cjais

 

 

Now, I have played nearly all of the above games, and never knew that you could such things with scripts. I haven't got any spiffy numbers, but most (=nearly all) of multiplayer gamers haven't got a clue about what scripts do, don't just think about the hardcore players here - newbs are abound.

 

And it isn't an "official" part of those games, if you ask your standard, average gamer, he *might* know what a script can do, but he sure as hell won't be able to make one - besides a taunt or txt-bind mayhaps.

 

Most people here go to great lengths to explain that nearly no one knows a script really *is*, and what it really can do - and what it can't do. That ultimately reveals that most people in this forum clearly doesn't know sh*t about scripts.

 

So what you're saying is that: some scripts can be unfairly exploited, but scripting in itself isn't bad. It appears we are in absolute agreement.

 

BTW, I probably won't be posting in this thread anymore because this topic is getting extremely silly right now. It feels, yet again, like beating a dead horse.

 

Well, what can I say, I'm partly amazed that you managed to seclude yourself from any talk of scripts while playing the aforementioned games. Doesn't matter really though.

 

And here we got a serious misconception: you seem to think that a feature is only "official" if the "general gamer" know what it is.

Well throw that thought out right now, to compare "official" and "inofficial" features: scripts are "official": all _well informed_ players know of it, and all server admins know of it too. You have to partly initiate yourself with the concept of scripting if you bind a button to taunt, a lot of players taunt. The Ghoul2 mode is however not "official" as it was never revealed to exist at all by the developers until confronted with a specific question about it.

[Jevesus]

Originally posted by Alexandrus

And yeah yeah yeah, scripts are part of the game blah blah, very usefull blah blah. If you actually think that game developers intended for ppl to script than you really ARE a lamer. Just so happnes that I have a friend working for a company that creates games, and trust me, nobody wants more fairplay than those guys that create the games.

 

Please, elaborate on how having an opinion defines a person as a lamer. If the developers of the game wouldn't want scripts to be in the game there wouldn't be scripts in the game, doh.

Somehow you interchange the words "fair play" and "no scripts" by trying to prove one by saying the other.

The problem here is that the developers of this game are poor designers, and, poor testers. If they had tried for even a very short while to make exploit scripts for this game they would have succeeded in doing so immediately and would have known that if they had just set the yawspeed variable as a server-side on then almost all exploits would be rendered useless.

 

Thus, the problem is not that there is a fundamental script support, but that the makers of this game neglected to even _try_ to make a script exploit for it to test its rigorousness.

[karismatik]

Originally posted by Nim_Cross

It's not really a script but it's a debug file that assigned a key of your choise to do this. It's rather frightning to be kissing in first person view...

 

Hehe Yah, but at least you don't catch diseases this way... (How do u do it?!?)

 

Jus on the subject of scripting everyone will have their own opinion on it... but if Twins doesn't have a problem with people who script moves, then why complain??? after all, it IS a public forum, and ppl can ask whatever they consider strategy, whether it involves scripting or not...

[Twins of Doom]

Originally posted by karismatik

 

Hehe Yah, but at least you don't catch diseases this way... (How do u do it?!?)

 

Jus on the subject of scripting everyone will have their own opinion on it... but if Twins doesn't have a problem with people who script moves, then why complain??? after all, it IS a public forum, and ppl can ask whatever they consider strategy, whether it involves scripting or not...

 

ok, i do have a bit of a problem with some of the scripts out there (like the blender and those that give an advantage).....but my problem and the reason i made this thread (maybe you just read the end and not the start) is that it's the multiplayer STRATEGY center.....i think a new area should be made for scripters to keep all this scripting **** outta here.......i don't have a problem with scripts for taunts, kissing, etc.........but the other stuff is a pain in the ass because a person can do a complicated move (or series of moves) with the press of one key and do it FASTER without HUMAN ERROR

[Jevesus]

Originally posted by Twins of Doom

 

ok, i do have a bit of a problem with some of the scripts out there (like the blender and those that give an advantage).....but my problem and the reason i made this thread (maybe you just read the end and not the start) is that it's the multiplayer STRATEGY center.....i think a new area should be made for scripters to keep all this scripting **** outta here.......i don't have a problem with scripts for taunts, kissing, etc.........but the other stuff is a pain in the ass because a person can do a complicated move (or series of moves) with the press of one key and do it FASTER without HUMAN ERROR

 

*applause*

 

personally i dont see how scripts, and use of them, is tangential to strategy.

[Twins of Doom]

that's EXACTLY what i've been trying to say, i'm glad we agree

[Jevesus]

Originally posted by Twins of Doom

that's EXACTLY what i've been trying to say, i'm glad we agree

 

hehem, i said:

"personally i dont see how scripts, and use of them, is tangential to strategy"

 

which means:

"personally i dont see how scripts, and use of them, is irrelevant to strategy"

 

notice the use of the word "dont". i think that discussions regarding scripts needn't be entirely irrelevant/tangential in a strategy forum.

 

scripts are bundled moves, and discussing which bundled moves are good and bad, how they are countered and so forth can very well fit in a strategy forum.

syntax questions and stuff however, doesnt fit in here.

[NomadWR]

WOOF, well at least that's over (hehehe)

[JaraDaj]

well, consolidating the scripts into one area would be great. But untill then, i just made a thread that will hopefully keep others from making one. No one will have to look for scripts or ask by making another thread. That's a small step, untill another forum is made.

 

I'm surprised it's going so well. Only a few flames, thanks to those who by flaming, bumped the post. You all rock... not as much as Dark_Zone. He's a pimp

[Alexandrus]

Originally posted by Jevesus

 

Please, elaborate on how having an opinion defines a person as a lamer. If the developers of the game wouldn't want scripts to be in the game there wouldn't be scripts in the game, doh.

Somehow you interchange the words "fair play" and "no scripts" by trying to prove one by saying the other.

The problem here is that the developers of this game are poor designers, and, poor testers. If they had tried for even a very short while to make exploit scripts for this game they would have succeeded in doing so immediately and would have known that if they had just set the yawspeed variable as a server-side on then almost all exploits would be rendered useless.

 

Thus, the problem is not that there is a fundamental script support, but that the makers of this game neglected to even _try_ to make a script exploit for it to test its rigorousness.

 

If you knew more about the creation of games you wouldn't talk like that. First, in order to make a game you need money, which you usualy take form the publisher. The publisher gives you a deadline in which to finish the game. If you don't finish the game within the deadline, then you're pretty much dead because you owe a lot of money, more that you got, since you didn't deliver. So in you have to vut on some testing/ tweaking which will be done in a patch later on if possible. Othrwise we wouldn't see any patches but games would take 3-5 years to complete(Max Payne heheheheheh). Now if you use an already done engine like JK2 does with the Q3 engine, then you have to take the good along with the bad, in this case the scripts. The scripts may not be so cheap in Q3 since that is a fast game anyway and doesn't require much thinking, but rather quick reflexes.

But for JK2, scripts are damaging the gameplay because this game is more about planning an attack and carrying it out, and a script can ruins a good player's attack.

 

And having an opinion doesn't make anything, not a lamer or a cool guy, it takes more than one opinion for that. But let's face it, if you script a combo it pretty much means you can't do it the normal way and that you're not such a good player afterall. Any fool can bind an entire combination of moves to a single key/button and pretend to be Jedi Master Yoda, he might even convince himself of that.

[Alexandrus]

Originally posted by JaraDaj

Scripting is cheating as much as you bind your mouse1 button to attack. It's just more complicated. If you really think scripting is a form of cheating you are spending WAY too much time thinking bout it. The commands are in the game, everyone's game, the same instal that we all used on the day we bought it. It's in the game engine, with NO modifications, NO "hack" files. No 3rd party programs are used. Nothing but thought/trial and error.

 

Hehehe, so is /god, a game command afterall.

 

Originally posted by JaraDaj

By your rational, if i kill with little work, i'm cheating. if i can go into a game and kill with little to no resistance i'm a lame, cheating, noob. I think not. Some people have to work harder to be good, others don't. WHO are You to say which is which? WHo are YOU to say how I play the game I bought with MY money? Who are YOU to dictate what I do with the game I bought.

[/b]

 

Nobody says that if you kill in one move or any other wasy way you're cheating, but if you bind a whole combo to one key, a combo that would otherwise take you long time to do if you can do it at all, now that is disturbing to say the least. If this is your way, then find others like you and play with them, don't ruin the game for other ppl that also bought the game and want to play it their way.

 

Originally posted by JaraDaj

You remind me of the kids i went to school with who got pissed cuase i didn't study for the test and still got an A. Spend you energy on more important issues.

[/b]

 

Are you sure you didn't cheat on those tests ?

 

Originally posted by JaraDaj

On a final note, Twins says;

 

please enlighten me but if soembody has a script to do a really big combo with the press of ONE single key and no skill how does this encourage them to use other moves?

 

Doesn't show skill in the way your narrow mind thinks it should. It shows he's genus in scripting. If i can do a script combo that kills in one press of a button i would be the man. I'd work for game companies, and would prob be in the ladders. Scripts aren't banned in ladder games if i remember correctly. What's that say bout them???

 

[/b]

 

Blah, now you're saying that if I have knowledge about the game's engine and all I know about that game is how to script that alone makes me a good player ? So it doesn't take any skill at all, does it ?

Who's narrow mided now, you or Twins of Doom ?