Sithmaster_821 Posted July 3, 2002 Share Posted July 3, 2002 Windu, dont flame people just because they're new. Jcb, the problem with too many civs is that many civs get left behind. Take AoK for example, no one plays anything in RM but Huns, Mongols, Goths and maybe a few Spanish and British (except simwiz, get over it Koreans are for DMers) . It would be just like the other civs werent in the game in the first place. Not to mention the fact that they would all be terribly similar, another problem that plagues AoK. SWGB did it right with different equally used but few civs to chose from. Also, for some of your ideas (like the tribute one), take in acount that gamplay>realism. Tributing isnt very common in games, and when it is done, it is usually needed right away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Windu Posted July 3, 2002 Author Share Posted July 3, 2002 JCB - yes, i am saying that if there were 40 civs i wouldn't bother with the game, since there would be almost no variation at all. As sithmaster said, a lot of civs would get left behind. I also dont see the need for a lot of the civs you are proposing, and also, can you imagine the amount of time it would take to create art for 40 different civs? They would have had to start producing it about a decade ago. This thread is for what people want to see in a future SW:GB 2 like you said, but please try to be realistic in what you're asking for. Sithmaster - i wasnt flaming anyone, i was stating my opinion on an idea. Everyone - again, (and this goes for me too) please keeps the posts relevant to the issue at hand, and try to keep everything else off this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcb231 Posted July 3, 2002 Share Posted July 3, 2002 I should give up. I really should. I should just drop the whole thing about multiple civs because I didn't come here to argue. But I feel like I have to make one last post on it before moving on, hopefully. My wishlist for the game includes 20-22 civilzations (the 40 I brought up was just an idle dream....I realize there's got to be a practical limit somewhere in terms of programming time and artwork). Your wishlist may be different, but don't tell me that someone couldn't make 22 different civs and have them all be different and all offer different play styles and lots of variation...it just shows a lack of imagination. And to once again state the rather obvious facts, no one forces you to play a civ you don't like. Every civ is going to be liked by someone, so why take that person's favorite away from them? If a civ gets left behind by the hardcore gamers who cares? They're not the only ones who play these games, you know. Some civs will be popular with hardcore folks, some will be popular with casual gamers, some with kids, etc. If someone wants to play as Gungans then dammit they'll play as Gungans, whereas a dozen other people might prefer the Republic. Are you somehow spending your personal time and effort to add civs to the game? No...unless you work for LucasArts, that is. I could see your point in not bothering with the game if they charged more for having 20ish civs, but if they didn't, if it was the same price as a standard game, why would anyone want less? As my final plea I refer to your own quote.... "Ok, ill put it a little differently, i will support the addition of ANY number of new civs (as long as the hutts are one) as long as they are SIGNIFFICANTLY DIFFERENT from the existing civs." See? You said it yourself....IF they were varied, you would support any number of civs. I'm proposing about 22 civs, all varied, and suddently that's not "ANY number".....weird. I keep refering back to the fact that I am proposing variation in the civs, but you always seem to overlook that when you post and keep saying that there would be no variation. Is that your only concern? If there were 22 varied civs you still wouldn't buy the game? I still don't get it, and I'm not going to get it, so let's all move on....I think we've both stated our case more than enough. This thread has gone nowhere pretty fast, now hasn't it? Instead of telling me what you don't want or what can't be done, why doesn't someone post what they would like to see or what they WOULD want in terms of a gameplay ideas...then we can all give some feedback (constructive, hopefully). There was a good but brief round of discussion about the engine, but very little talk of actual gameplay. Am I the only person with a wishlist for this game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DarthMaulUK Posted July 3, 2002 Share Posted July 3, 2002 Let's all be a little more civil please here people. DMUK http://www.galacticbattles.com *** new look coming soon *** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MM-86 Posted July 3, 2002 Share Posted July 3, 2002 Some more ideas from me. Confederacy. -geonosian warriors should be able to land and walk on the surface. -An upgrade for the anti-air mobile, so that it can attack ground targets, but with less effect than against a air target. -The repeater trooper should look like a normal SUPER battledroid, since they actually got repeaters in the movie already. Galactic empire. -Mech destroyer should be very bad and not being affected by mech armor upgrades.(Just watch Ep.6 when 2 logs smashed the AT-ST!). Gungans. -A expencive upgrade that allows infantry to swim. -Underwater naval yards. -Blue colour on their "boomas". -bad aircraft. Trade federation. -Battle droids should be able to undeploy into a non-attack stance, so that you can fill transports with double as much droids. -The best mech-destroyer in the game. -Special upgrade for the strike mech, "STAP engines"10% faster. I will come with more... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcb231 Posted July 4, 2002 Share Posted July 4, 2002 YES! Now we're talking..... I agree about the landed troopers....I wonder if these could be a seperate, cheaper troop or just an option in the existing ones? Definately upgrade the anti-air mobile for confeds....in sort of the reverese of how the AT AT was upgraded for CC. In the movie the halifire droids can shoot an AT-TE...they should be able to do so in the game. After all, that's why the At-Ats got the upgrade...people complained it wasn't like the movie. Repeater Troops as Super Battle Droids....I've actually thought that the Super battle droids should be seperate from the regular battle droids, and that the confeds should be able to build both like in the movie. It would be cool if the repeaters were seperate from the regular troops and were supers. I agree with your underwater naval yards for gungans....super cool. I actually think that many civs should have submarines. Mon Cal AND Gungans should be able to swim....I think from the outset rather than an upgrade, though. Definetly the TF extra droids in the transport thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Windu Posted July 4, 2002 Author Share Posted July 4, 2002 JCB - i've finished with that discussion, as it goes against my own rules, but i would just like to say that none of my comment were meant to offend you (or anyone else) in any way, and if you were offended by them, i appolagise in advance. Back to the topic at hand- I would like to see some terrain changes in the form of- 1. 'rolling hills' instead of the 'stepped hills' we have at the moment, make the terrain 'flow' better and look more natural 2. 'rough seas' or something similar, impassible water terrain I would also like to see changes so that, for example, the TF's troops are naturally cheaper, quicker to produce, but less hitpoints and attack than most other civs (Republic possibly quicker) Also, deny some civs units and buildings such as denying the Gungans and Wookie's jedi (like the Macedonians in AoE), deny the rebels the assault mech, deny the empire/tf/confed the advanced combat aircraft upgrades etc to reflect their strengths/weaknesses in the movies better Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcb231 Posted July 4, 2002 Share Posted July 4, 2002 Yes....I'd like to overall terrain improvements. Perhaps as part of a general graphic overhaul. The rough seas idea is interesting....I suppose if there were submursible units they could dive under it? I wonder if rough seas could change somewhat randomly over the course of the game, like weather. I agree with no Gungan Jedi. They could have some sort of shaman mystics that could perform some of, but not all, of the jedi functions....ie they would not have lightsabers or cloaking or anything but would be able to convert units and heal troops or something. Wookies could have something similar, as could any other new civs that might not seem right to have jedi. The only trouble with denying certain civs items is the balance. I suppose, though, that as long as every civ GAINED something, they could trade off for it by being denied something else. I agree, as I've stated before, that the TF should be able to pump out the troops easily (as should the Confed, and any possible Geonosion civ) the troops would be a little weaker, but they'd have numbers on their side. Once again, think of the zerglings if you're a starcraft fan. The Republic should also have good troop cloning facilities, but not quite at the speed of the droid factories. Clones are shown to be a slow process in the movie. Perhaps some sort of additional Kaminoan upgrades could improve the speed......And while we're at it, why not add a few Kaminoan units? They could act as medics or otherwise enhance the performance of clones around them. Maybe the flying mount seen in the movies could make an appearance. Also, how about a troop academy building to research advanced troop enhancements and train officers (if, like me, you'd like to see offricer units).... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kryllith Posted July 4, 2002 Share Posted July 4, 2002 Originally posted by MM-86 Some more ideas from me. Confederacy. -geonosian warriors should be able to land and walk on the surface. -An upgrade for the anti-air mobile, so that it can attack ground targets, but with less effect than against a air target. -The repeater trooper should look like a normal SUPER battledroid, since they actually got repeaters in the movie already. I can see them landing, but I don't really see a point behind it other than to make them more vulnerable since ground attacks would be able to affect them (then again, maybe when they've landed, then AA units couldn't hit them). A decent speed boost for the AA artillery might be good too Galactic empire. -Mech destroyer should be very bad and not being affected by mech armor upgrades.(Just watch Ep.6 when 2 logs smashed the AT-ST!). Laugh! No Those were very big logs and they hit the AT-ST just right (like how one might squeeze a soda can). It probably would have had the same affect on an AT-PT or AT-AT (the head at least) if it had hit them the same way too. Gungans. -A expencive upgrade that allows infantry to swim. -Underwater naval yards. -Blue colour on their "boomas". -bad aircraft. Actually their aircraft are bad (though their ability to heal counteracts it). I would like to see the aircraft of others, like the TF and Confed, improved a little. I suppose if you want to Gungan aircraft worse though, you could remove the highest fighter/bomber upgrades. Btw, I like the idea of swimming infantry, especially if they could dive like the gungan frigates do. Trade federation. -Battle droids should be able to undeploy into a non-attack stance, so that you can fill transports with double as much droids. -The best mech-destroyer in the game. -Special upgrade for the strike mech, "STAP engines"10% faster. Yeah, maybe special upgrade for the TF Assaults that allows them to carry double droids. I'd have DDs fill up two slots in such a case though (20 troopers or 10 DD or a combination of them). Kryllith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy_dog no.3 Posted July 4, 2002 Share Posted July 4, 2002 Confids makin' battle driods? CRAP!!!! That would take away the Trade Fed's uniqueness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcb231 Posted July 4, 2002 Share Posted July 4, 2002 It wouldn't discount their uniqueness...they'ds still have unique mechs, destroyer droids, and all other units. They would also have unique heavy and repeating troopers since those would be super battle droids for confeds. Basically only two units (recruit and trooper) would overlap, and the confeds would be slightly different anyway (ten years worth of tech later, ya know)....maybe a "standardized parts" tech could be researched that would then allow TF troops to ride in confed allies' transports or something. Could be cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MM-86 Posted July 4, 2002 Share Posted July 4, 2002 2 logs wouldn't even scratch a AAT, even if they smashed in from both sides like in Ep.6. All civs. -assault mechs should be able to drive/walk through forest. -the mechs could be a little bit bigger, atleast Wookies, a Wookie infantry unit is almost bigger than a mech destroyer. Royal Naboo. -Why have their royal crusaders shield? no shield please. instead they could be cheaper. I have more to come...but i don't have time right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcb231 Posted July 4, 2002 Share Posted July 4, 2002 Personally, I don't care for the idea of mechs being able to move through forest.....maybe scouts, but mechs seem to big to make it between the trees. I think, though, that Wookie Infantry, and Ewoks Infantry if they were a civ, should be able to move trough the trees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simwiz2 Posted July 5, 2002 Share Posted July 5, 2002 Half the things now being suggested would be nearly impossible to balance. All civs mechs go through forests? No way! The empire would be unstoppable, and civs that lack good mechs will have mechs hitting their troops from range in the forest and they won't be able to get to the mechs!! Wookiees and Ewok troops go through forest? That would make them unstoppable on forest maps, for example, and useless on flats maps. Having gungan infantry swim might work, but it would only help to make the gungans more of a water-map only civ, while the goal should be to make all civs equally useful on as many map types as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcb231 Posted July 5, 2002 Share Posted July 5, 2002 I think that giving certain civs bonuses on certain types of terrain would not effect the balance. Every civ would have some sort of special ability, so they'd be even in that regard. Also, I think that only scouts (possibly for all civs) and only wookie/ewok workers and infantry (no mounties) should be able to move through the woods....but not fire until they hit a clearing, as the lasers would just hit the trees anyway, or they'd be in an invincible spot and that WOULD effect the balance. Imagine though, ways to balance this even farther....Mon Cal/Gungans workers and infantry could swim, Sullustan workers/infantry could burrow into the ground, Bespin workers could fly, etc......maybe not those specifics but you get the idea. And I don't see why this would make them useless on plains maps....they wouldn't have a disadvantage there, they'd just lose the ability to take advantage of the forests. Also, they wouldn't be stronger just because there were trees, they'd still have to build up a decent army to move through that forest. And troops alone don't make a strong force. It would just provide some cool bonuses here and there. I also don't see why swimming Gungans would make them water map only....they'd be the same civ as before, just with some water perks. You could play them on a desert map if you wanted to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kryllith Posted July 5, 2002 Share Posted July 5, 2002 Originally posted by MM-86 2 logs wouldn't even scratch a AAT, even if they smashed in from both sides like in Ep.6. All civs. -assault mechs should be able to drive/walk through forest. I have more to come...but i don't have time right now. I'd say it depends on the size of the logs . And again, I'm only talking about the head, not the body. I don't know about driving through forests, but I do think they should be given a ground attack ability like artillery, cannons, and bombers. If they're dishing out enough power to accidently blow up trees when they shoot something then they should just be given the option to shoot directly at the forests... Kryllith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xirion Posted July 5, 2002 Share Posted July 5, 2002 Windu your Idea is good Damn its been edited l;ets just say i dont agree withyour attitude to others *edited by DMUK* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simwiz2 Posted July 6, 2002 Share Posted July 6, 2002 Originally posted by jcb231 And I don't see why this would make them useless on plains maps....they wouldn't have a disadvantage there, they'd just lose the ability to take advantage of the forests. Also, they wouldn't be stronger just because there were trees, they'd still have to build up a decent army to move through that forest. And troops alone don't make a strong force. It would just provide some cool bonuses here and there. I also don't see why swimming Gungans would make them water map only....they'd be the same civ as before, just with some water perks. You could play them on a desert map if you wanted to. Because... to balance this out they either have to take something away from the civ, or give something to all the other civs. Either way the civ loses ground on maps where its specialty is not useful. You would end up with "ultimate water map civ", an "ultimate forest civ", an "ultimate asteroids/space civ", etc. And the burrowing underground? That means that they could insert an entire force anywhere, unbeknownst to you, in your town, pop up, slaughter all workers, and when your army comes they just go underground again. That would be nearly impossible to balance. Think what 40 uncatchable repeaters could do to a town, just hitting and running over and over again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcb231 Posted July 6, 2002 Share Posted July 6, 2002 Ever played Starcraft? Many Zerg forces can burrow into the ground to hide.....perhaps I was misleading in my post. I didn't mean they'd be able to travel underground, just burrow straight down and hide. Although they should be able to tunnel under walls, maybe. But I think every civ should have at least one unit that can go over or under walls. And yes, every civ WOULD get some sort of a bonus or penalty to balance the game. Perhaps Gungan swimming ability (seeing as how it only effects workers and foot soldiers) would not be that big of an advantage. Strong Imperial Mechs or strong Rebel Air or fast TF manufacturing times could off-set this, especially if the gungans had to wait until they were onshore to attack, and swam slowly....making them very vulnerable while actually in the water. By the way (and don't take this as an insult, I really want to know)....are you in support of ANY changes to the game for a sequel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simwiz2 Posted July 7, 2002 Share Posted July 7, 2002 Yes, I think changes are good, but I am just trying to consider how they would affect game balance. IMO giving certain civs benefits that apply to certain maps would cause civs to be very map-specific. If they were small bonuses it could work however. The burrowing underground just to hide and not to move is good, and since it is not really specific to any map it could be balanced across many map types. I may be opposed to some ideas because I am worried first about game balance. The reason why CC is my 2nd favorite game while AoC now collects dust on my shelf, despite the fact that they are almost duplicates of each other, is game balance. AoC has very poor balance, certain civs useless on all but one type of map (which some of the bonuses mentioned might cause unless carefully balanced), Paladins the all-around uber-unit, fast, high hp, high pierce armor, high attack, high regular armor, etc. Battlegrounds has had, since the beginning, almost perfect balance. In AoC there are 3 civs played by all the experts, and the other 12 or so are n00b civs. I just want to avoid that happening to GB2. If Gungans are the ultimate civ for any map with water in it, Wookies the only civ for densly forested maps, etc, it is poor balance. It would be nice to include noticable similarities to the movie as far as the civs' preference of habitat, but only those that are not map-specific AND can be balanced. The troops burrowing just to hide is a good example. Not necessarily would it be all or no civs having these bonuses. Some could (the balanceable ones), while others get military bonueses to make up for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Windu Posted July 7, 2002 Author Share Posted July 7, 2002 Well with the swimming Gungan troop's idea you could make them a second Gungan Unique Unit and keep the troops the way they are, and so keep gameplay reasonably balanced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kryllith Posted July 7, 2002 Share Posted July 7, 2002 Or limit their swimming in one way or another. For example, they might not be able to attack while swimming, or might only be able to swim in relatively shallow water (deeper than what troopers can currently walk in but say, not out in the middle of an ocean... wouldn't be a problem for rivers but certain island maps might be a problem.) Or they just might move slower in water. Of course, there is always the hazard that they'll fall prey to the various water monsters. Kryllith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcb231 Posted July 7, 2002 Share Posted July 7, 2002 What if all civs could researcxh map-specific abilities, but some civs started with them? Like a "Forest Ranger" upgrade for Imperial troops or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Windu Posted July 7, 2002 Author Share Posted July 7, 2002 Just thought of some more things- -give the option of transferreing your forces to someone else, like in the 'Star Trek: Armada' series -instead of killing units and destroyering units you dont need anymore, make them 'decommision' or disassemble of something like that, so that your workers take it down and you can get back some of the cost of the unit/building, look at the C&C, ST:Armada etc series Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcb231 Posted July 8, 2002 Share Posted July 8, 2002 Good ideas, both......but, I'd like to see salvage ability as a special research option or skill. This would combine the ability to recoup your investements on old units with the ability to steal materials from destroyed enemies. While we're talking on this....I think that a possible Hutt civ should not have the ability to auto upgrade units....this would give their forces the "motley" appearnace of Jabba's troops, and would force a player playing as the Hutts to manage troops much more closely. They could make up for it by having incredible trade and economic options and bonuses like cheaper units or highly effective bounty hunter upgrades...perhaps in spaceport trading they could have a researchable option or starting skill called "Skimming off the Top" or some such which would let them get a little extra Nova. Maybe they could also send stealth cargo ships to steal from enemy spaceports, essentially allowing them to trade with everyone, whether the other player wants to or not. Perhaps they could also research a spice mining option to get extra resources. I've said the transfer to another player thing before...I think someting like this would also help in online games where one player leaves and his forces just sit there pointlessly. ---------------------------- But now, we dance..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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