Do you hate me? (*Warning: Somewhat frank discussion*)

[Vestril]

NO, here's a period for ya, coming up. <---- Thah is a period. You can't do that. You can't just go and kill someone cuz you don't want them. I guess I could go over to your house and kill you cuz I don't like you, using your logic. It's a human. How come a woman can have an abortion, yet, if she gets killed in a car accident, the guy who hit them gets charged with a double murder? WTF? That is bull. They acknowledge that it is a human than, but not when she wants to kill it. What do you think? Back-alley abortions are not like that.

 

Once again, allow me to introduce you to my friend reality.

 

Reality dictates that if a woman wants an abortion, she'll have one. If she says 'it was a miscarraige' who is going to call her a liar? Theoretically she just lost her baby, so you're not going to be an ass and push about it. All you're going to do is nod and say 'I'm sorry for your loss.'

 

Once again, it sucks, but it is the way things are, and the only thing you can do is accept it. Let me give you another example. Many christians are against contraceptive tools, like condoms, or the pill. Given your beliefs, that is understanable, but whether or not you put out the condoms, the kids will have sex. With the condoms, some of them will have unprotected sex, without the condoms, most of them will have unprotected sex. Do you see why this is bad? More STDs, probably more back alley abortions.

 

Now, I demand you to apologize for calling my beliefs stupid. I'm only trying to explain to you the official Catholic teachings. You are the one being ignorant and close-minded. "no offense, but your aguement here is stupid" Sorry man.

 

You're asking me to apologize for something that didn't happen. I never once called your beliefs stupid. I called your argument stupid. Why? Because you INSULTED ME FOR NO REASON.

 

k?

 

I have a question for you. Why is that some people are homosexuals one day and than heterosexuals the next? They choose to be like that. I'm not bashing homosexuals. Homosexuality is fine, as long as you don't act upon it. I don't have a problem with homosexuals.

 

Ermmm...I don't know anyone who switches from homosexality to heterosexuality like that...Some people known as Bisexuals like both sexes, but that is a horse of a different color. Some homosexuals feel the need to lie and say that they are heterosexuals, and that is mainly because of people who tell them that they are dirty and disgusting, like Lime-Light, or people who say that they are not allowed to make love like other human beings. You say it's wrong, fine, good for you. I say it's fine. I say it's not unnatural, since it sometimes occurs in nature (yes children, animals can be homosexual, I had a golden retriever that used to try to hump the boy dogs ).

 

Though, this is important, you must do what right for the child. raising a child in a family where he has two dad's or two mom's is not in the best interest for the child. You have to do what's best for the child. Can you honestly say that a child growing up like that is in the child's best interest?

 

How can you say it's not in the best interest of the child? Do you have any hard data that says that children raised by same sex marraiges are less likely to succeed in life? Again, single parenting and same sex parenting both occur in nature, so it isn't unnatural (and I'm arguing for single parent families, which by your logic would also be poor).

 

Yeah, like if you marry a virgin. You could just say yeah I have a huge penis. How would she know if it is or not? She would have no way of knowing.

 

You want to lie to your future wife???

 

 

Ever notice that the more times you do something, the less fun it is? You think to yourself, "boy that would be great if all day I could just do this one thing that I really enjoy over and over." It would get boring. Like, I like pizza. If I eat that everyday for the rest of my life, wouldn't you think that I would begin to start hating pizza? It's the same thing with masturbation and pre-marital sex. It doesn't enhance it. You see how that would devalue it?

 

If I go jogging every day of my life, I will not grow to hate it, I'll just continue to get better at it, and I will still derive pleasure from it, eventually a nostalgic pleasure. Since sex is a physical activity, and since people don't seem to get tired of sex, my argument would seem more likely

 

right.. like I said earlier, you can't do whatever you want with your body. You just can't. You can't go and eat and eat and eat all you want. It's called gluttony. It's a sin. You have to take care of your body. You can't just do what you want with it.

 

That's what the Bible says, but to my thinking, if someone wants to be a lard-ass, and die of a heart attack at 42, he can do whatever he wants. He's paying for it by shortening his life, and the potential enjoyment of his life, so why should he go to hell for it?

 

Look my mind can be changed, but it's unlikely that it will be you who changes it, because of how you present your arguments. I mean no offense to you, your beliefs are valid, but for me to say that they are correct? That would be hypocritical of me.

[BlackDove]

Originally posted by aNaL tHeRapisT

 

:eyeraise:

[Tyrion]

Originally posted by aNaL tHeRapisT

 

 

 

God will smite you because of that,so sleep with 1 eye open...

[Lime-Light]

Ok, first of all, I'm not trying to pis anyone off here. I just noticed that many pratices off religion are for the purpose of staying alive. I never denounced it. Its a fact that in christianity if you dont believe you go to hell, I believe it was whitedragon who told me this, so dont go downplaying the the facts becuase I noticed they're ugly.

 

And Vestril, I belive you misunderstood. I dont go around calling homosexuals freaks and spitting on them or something, i just consider the act of homosexuality gross, but just becuase a person is gay, doesnt mean I think they are worthy of riddicule or mistreatment. I dont define a person on thier views or acts, I try to classify no one and see them as simply another person.

 

And on another note, I dont sit around all day lpaying computer games and watching sports. I think watching sports is the most riddiculous waste of time ever concieved. I watch very litle tv, instead I write, draw, talk and discuss like this, and go to school. Stop making these assupmtions as you did with Vestril and presume you know how I spend my time, 1234....

[Divine Spirit]

Originally posted by Vestril

 

You're really bad at thought experiments...you know that??? (just kidding you )

 

Ok ok, allow me to qualify this a little. This hypothetical being just came into existence, a fully cognizent being, and has only a sense of right and wrong. If you say 'is murder wrong?' he'll be able to answer you, but if you ask him 'what is wrong and what is right?' he won't know, because it's not a knowledge, it's a feeling.

 

His guidelines as to what specifically is right or wrong isn't pertinent, just to head off all of you naysayers (though thankfully most of the idiots proclaimed that they were leaving this thread...)

 

yeah i see what you mean now, ur right. a lot of people in this thread are saying things like 'doing this is wrong' and 'doing this is acceptable' when those are just opinions.

[Vestril]

And Vestril, I belive you misunderstood. I dont go around calling homosexuals freaks and spitting on them or something, i just consider the act of homosexuality gross, but just becuase a person is gay, doesnt mean I think they are worthy of riddicule or mistreatment. I dont define a person on thier views or acts, I try to classify no one and see them as simply another person.

 

Oh and I don't mean to say that you do. After re-reading I can see why you might take that the wrong way though. Let me see if I can explain via a simple example.

 

If I were a homosexual, and I was reading this, I would feel a little less comfortable telling people on here that I was a homosexual, because I would already know that some people strongly disapproved of what I did. Now I don't think that you having your feelings is wrong, nor do I think that your expressing them is wrong. I'm simply saying that it is people who have views like yours that contribute to their not wanting to be open. You're not bad for having your feelings, and you're not bad for expressing them, it's just a sad fact of life that your opinions can hurt some people.

 

Personally I think your opinions on the matter represent a mode of thought that is taking the back seat for the time being. There have been points in history where homosexuality was accepted before, and I think we are moving into one now. I also think that that period of time will end again, as it has before, if you look at history.

 

Which brings me onto a thoroughly off topic point, but one I think the people here can benefit from, because so many of you are still young enough to learn easily (like your truly ). Over the last...4000 years, people haven't changed much. Oh our trinkets, and lifespans, and religions, and languages have--but the person at the center of it hasn't changed. If I took a healthy newborn from ancient Rome and stuck him in the hands of some upper-middle class Americans, I'm pretty sure he would wind up like most of us are.

 

Our ideas and our thoughts are actually much the same, and the trends we follow are trends that have actually been followed before, if you have a keen eye and have studied history. History is the best way we have available to know more about how we will behave in the future, and it is the only way that we can truly evolve as a society.

 

When the events of history took place, they had only their wits to rely on to help them along. We have another valuable tool, we have the mistakes we made in the past, which can help us avoid making the same mistakes in the future. So future parents, world leaders, business men, lawyers, janitors, people I'll have hopefully throttled at some point --study history, at least have a general idea of how many others like you have gone before, and will go again.

[Lime-Light]

Ok thanks for the clarification.

 

And I agree with you on how people havent changed throughout history too much. I believe scociety has changed drastically, but not people.

[Vestril]

Originally posted by Lime-Light

Ok thanks for the clarification.

 

And I agree with you on how people havent changed throughout history too much. I believe scociety has changed drastically, but not people.

 

Society isn't actually as different as you might think. Some of the ideas have changed, but most of them have been around before

[123456789101112]

Originally posted by Vestril

 

Once again, allow me to introduce you to my friend reality.

 

Reality dictates that if a woman wants an abortion, she'll have one. If she says 'it was a miscarraige' who is going to call her a liar? Theoretically she just lost her baby, so you're not going to be an ass and push about it. All you're going to do is nod and say 'I'm sorry for your loss.'

 

That's true. But, it doesn't have to happen. Well, using your logic, people are bound to use drugs, why not just legalize it? People are bound to kill. You can't stop that. Why not just allow it to happen and legalize it? That's reality. It will happen sometimes, yes, but you can prevent it from happening all the time. One again, that's using your logic.

 

Once again, it sucks, but it is the way things are, and the only thing you can do is accept it. Let me give you another example. Many christians are against contraceptive tools, like condoms, or the pill. Given your beliefs, that is understanable, but whether or not you put out the condoms, the kids will have sex. With the condoms, some of them will have unprotected sex, without the condoms, most of them will have unprotected sex. Do you see why this is bad? More STDs, probably more back alley abortions.

 

So, as long as we give them that, everything will be fine. You are only promoting it. That doesn't help. Yeah, they are going to do it, but but giving them that, you are only promoting it. You should make the message clear that it's wrong. You can also prevent STD's and "back-alley" abortions by informing the kids. Which way is better, giving them teh aids that they need to do it and saying it's bad, or educating them on it?

 

You're asking me to apologize for something that didn't happen. I never once called your beliefs stupid. I called your argument stupid. Why? Because you INSULTED ME FOR NO REASON.

 

k?

 

All this shows is ignorance. I took offense to something, yet you refuse to apologize for it. Why not just say, "I"m right and you should really stop taking offense to teh things that I say."?

 

Ermmm...I don't know anyone who switches from homosexality to heterosexuality like that...Some people known as Bisexuals like both sexes, but that is a horse of a different color. Some homosexuals feel the need to lie and say that they are heterosexuals, and that is mainly because of people who tell them that they are dirty and disgusting, like Lime-Light, or people who say that they are not allowed to make love like other human beings. You say it's wrong, fine, good for you. I say it's fine. I say it's not unnatural, since it sometimes occurs in nature (yes children, animals can be homosexual, I had a golden retriever that used to try to hump the boy dogs ).

 

*sigh* Anne Hashe*(spelling) did. For a little bit she was a lesbian in love with Ellen and than after a while she likes men again. It is not natural. Look at the male and female reproductive organs. Don't they just kinda seem like they fit together? Kinda like pieces in a puzzle. Anal sex is unnatural, even for a male and female. When a male and female have natural sex, I assume that there would be little if any bleeding involved.(I'm not too sure here) Not with anal sex. You are going the wrong way there. Stuff goes out not in there buddy, therefore there is almost always bleeding involved.(again, not too sure. Never tried it myself.)

 

 

How can you say it's not in the best interest of the child? Do you have any hard data that says that children raised by same sex marraiges are less likely to succeed in life? Again, single parenting and same sex parenting both occur in nature, so it isn't unnatural (and I'm arguing for single parent families, which by your logic would also be poor).

 

I never said that they wouldn't succeed in life. Now you are the one putting words in another person's mouth.

 

You want to lie to your future wife???

 

Haha. I guess I have a small penis. Nice one! Anyhow, how would she know if it's small or not? She has nothing to compare it too. That's the point that I was making. You seemed to have missed that.

 

If I go jogging every day of my life, I will not grow to hate it, I'll just continue to get better at it, and I will still derive pleasure from it, eventually a nostalgic pleasure. Since sex is a physical activity, and since people don't seem to get tired of sex, my argument would seem more likely

 

Ok, you've said everything that I said so far was ignorant and with poor logic. Now I get to say it. You are so very ignorant here. Why not try eating pizza for the rest of your life. You are telling me that you would not grow to hate it? Are you calling sex a sport? Something that you need to practice at? I don't seem to agree here. Oh, right... Houston 500.... Hrm.. I guess there is some competition involved. ok. I guess it is a sport. Good thing she practiced before so that she could get that good. You don't seem to think that devalues sex. Yet, using your logic, it's ok to have sex with several people to practice I guess. Tell me that such things do not devalue sex. Yet, you seem to be on their side but saying having sex with multiple people is good becuz you practice... I guess for the big Houston 500... I'm sorry cuz you seem to feel that if you play JO for every minute for the rest of your life that you would not grow tired of it.

 

 

That's what the Bible says, but to my thinking, if someone wants to be a lard-ass, and die of a heart attack at 42, he can do whatever he wants. He's paying for it by shortening his life, and the potential enjoyment of his life, so why should he go to hell for it?

 

Again, that proves your poor logic. and I can say that cuz you only said that I had poor logic about how many times? So you can do whatever you want now eh? So if I wanna get a tattoo on a visible body part that say "Vestrils mom swallows" or something like that, that would be alright? Ah, but using your logic, I can. It's my body.... Oh, ok. He's paying for it by shortening his life. I see. So why not kill yourself now? You'll make it to heaven, using your logic. Heck, that'd be great. I'm shortening my life by abusing my body and I'll get into heaven quicker than you, who does good things in life. I'll get rewarded before you do. sweeeeeeettt.

 

Look my mind can be changed, but it's unlikely that it will be you who changes it, because of how you present your arguments. I mean no offense to you, your beliefs are valid, but for me to say that they are correct? That would be hypocritical of me.

 

Read back what you just said. No offense, but you're an idiot. Your arguements are poor, and you're ignorant. Don't like my saying that? Tuff luck, cuz you told that to me like 500000 times. Yet you wonder why I take offense to that. Yet, you refuse to apologize. Fine, you can call me ignorant and say that my arguements are poor, I can say the same to you. Don't expect me to apologize.

 

First of all, Lime-light, I never made the presumption that you sit around watching tv all day. That was an analogy. I never assumed that that's really what you did.

 

Vestril,

I find it rather disturbing how you would refuse to apologize like that. I said earlier that I might be having a hard time expressing my ideas. You said that my arguement was stupid. I apologized to you even though you still seem to be making my assumption valid. Nevertheless, I apologized cuz there is reasonable doubt that I was incorrect in my assumption. Yet, you refuse to apologize. You said that my arguement was stupid. I told you eariler that I might not be doing the best job presenting my beliefs. Yet, you still are unwilling to retract your statement. I find that ignorant, and reflective of what type of a person you really are.

[Vestril]

All this shows is ignorance. I took offense to something, yet you refuse to apologize for it. Why not just say, "I"m right and you should really stop taking offense to teh things that I say."?

 

Vestril,

I find it rather disturbing how you would refuse to apologize like that. I said earlier that I might be having a hard time expressing my ideas. You said that my arguement was stupid. I apologized to you even though you still seem to be making my assumption valid. Nevertheless, I apologized cuz there is reasonable doubt that I was incorrect in my assumption. Yet, you refuse to apologize. You said that my arguement was stupid. I told you eariler that I might not be doing the best job presenting my beliefs. Yet, you still are unwilling to retract your statement. I find that ignorant, and reflective of what type of a person you really are.

 

Since I have already responded to it, I will go ahead and quote myself, and let you see what it is that I was saying. I called a very specific portion of your argument stupid, and I called it stupid for a very specific reason. Feel free to figure out what it was, any day now.

 

I don't think you realize how stupid this part of your argument is. I mean no offense here, but I never brought abortion into this argument, and you actually responded as to why I wouldn't.

 

Is the offending quote.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, I demand you to apologize for calling my beliefs stupid. I'm only trying to explain to you the official Catholic teachings. You are the one being ignorant and close-minded. "no offense, but your aguement here is stupid" Sorry man.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

You're asking me to apologize for something that didn't happen. I never once called your beliefs stupid. I called your argument stupid. Why? Because you INSULTED ME FOR NO REASON.

 

k?

 

Is your response, and my response to your response. Allow me to further explain.

 

I was calling your argument stupid because it had nothing to do with anything I had previously said. You suddenly brought abortion into the argument, for no apparent reason, and suggested that I was some sort of baby killing fanatic....that is stupid. It is stupid to bring up such a hot topic without provocation. I'm sorry that you don't see it that way, but that's how it is.

 

Now I can see why you might think that I was insulting your beliefs on the matter, and let me assure you--I wasn't. Your beliefs are as valid as anyone elses, and I apologize for the misunderstanding. Please calm down. I think I can assume that you are the person who sent me the rather rude email, since it follows much of what you have said here, and let me say this: if it was you, in the future, please at least admit who you are, that was kind of childish. If it really wasn't you, I apologize for the assumption.

 

Now, onto other arguments...

 

That's true. But, it doesn't have to happen. Well, using your logic, people are bound to use drugs, why not just legalize it? People are bound to kill. You can't stop that. Why not just allow it to happen and legalize it? That's reality. It will happen sometimes, yes, but you can prevent it from happening all the time. One again, that's using your logic.

 

No..it's not using my logic. My logic has been trademarked, and if I were in a sour disposition I would be calling my lawyers right now

 

Hey!! Calm down!! That was a joke , you need to take it easy here. That entire post was very angry, and it's my fault for being a little sharp with you earlier, so I apologise for that--let's not continue this trend though. Let's debate this in a calm and rational manner, like adults. I'll do my best, though I must admit that I can get a little off course now and again.

 

In any case, that was not using my logic, because you're describing an extreme. If there was no law against killing, we would not be a planet full of serial killers. It is a scant few people who are murderers, who are capable of killing adult human beings, killing a man is not an easy thing to do.

 

However the people who have abortions are not a scant few, they are actually a large chunk of women, because all it takes is fear and a coat hanger. If you want to throw a 13 year old girl in jail for giving herself an abortion, you go ahead and try, but if she was my daughter I would die before letting that happen. These are normal human beings put into the worst of circumstances, and you can't take a callous stance towards them, they can be any race, and any religion, and honestly any depth of religion. It's easy to say to me 'its a human life' it's not so easy to explain to a young girl who made a mistake that the tiny collection of cells residing in her body is worth completely ruining her life. Calling her a murderer is a crime which is, IMO, worse than the one she commited, because it is a fully objective and rational act, as opposed to mistake that compounds a mistake made out of fear.

 

So, as long as we give them that, everything will be fine. You are only promoting it. That doesn't help. Yeah, they are going to do it, but but giving them that, you are only promoting it. You should make the message clear that it's wrong. You can also prevent STD's and "back-alley" abortions by informing the kids. Which way is better, giving them teh aids that they need to do it and saying it's bad, or educating them on it?

 

Education is nothing compared to horomones. Nothing at all. You can teach a kid all you want that getting a girl knocked up, or having sex is wrong, but the truth is that when the horomones are raging and the legs are *ahem* spread, all that education won't make a difference. Hopefully though, if you've taught him enough, he'll put a condom on though, so he doesn't get some terrible disease, or so she doesn't.

 

It's a somewhat naive standpoint that education can prevent this, and here is why: I was raised a Catholic, I went to Catholic school, I am willing to bet that I have been more thoroughly educated in the Bible than you have, yet I still don't have a problem with pre-marital sex. I am well educated on the subject, but I don't care about that stuff. If there weren't condoms, I would still go out and have sex, except that it would be much more dangerous.

 

I am not the only person like me. Condoms are good.

 

*sigh* Anne Hashe*(spelling) did. For a little bit she was a lesbian in love with Ellen and than after a while she likes men again. It is not natural. Look at the male and female reproductive organs. Don't they just kinda seem like they fit together? Kinda like pieces in a puzzle. Anal sex is unnatural, even for a male and female. When a male and female have natural sex, I assume that there would be little if any bleeding involved.(I'm not too sure here) Not with anal sex. You are going the wrong way there. Stuff goes out not in there buddy, therefore there is almost always bleeding involved.(again, not too sure. Never tried it myself.)

 

Anne Heche is a bisexual. She was straight, but open, and one day she met a woman that she fell in love with, it's very romantic. When that didn't work out, she didn't suddenly hate men, and want only women, it was just one woman.

 

When women have sex for the first time, they might bleed, if their hymen (I think that's the spelling) hasn't already been broken in some other way (which is very possible, it's a delicate membrane).

 

I have no idea as to the bleeding from anal sex, I wouldn't have thought there would be any, but I haven't tried it either. I don't find your logic too convincing though...I mean it's a hole, and fingers sometimes go in for medical reasons (checking up on the 'ol prostate) or even objects or liquids (enema's). So it isn't like if something goes...*ahem* up in there, it's the end of the world.

 

I never said that they wouldn't succeed in life. Now you are the one putting words in another person's mouth.

 

Ermm...ok...well you did say this:

 

Though, this is important, you must do what right for the child. raising a child in a family where he has two dad's or two mom's is not in the best interest for the child. You have to do what's best for the child. Can you honestly say that a child growing up like that is in the child's best interest?

 

Best interest, right? Well, it seems to me that if something isn't in the best interest of a child, he won't succed in life. What did you mean by that statement: 'is it in the childs best interest', if you didn't mean that being raised in a same-sex marraige would hurt their chances in life?

 

If they succed in life, then it seems to me that the same-sex marraige didn't hurt them at all...and I mean succed in the sense that they become productive, happy human beings.

 

Haha. I guess I have a small penis. Nice one! Anyhow, how would she know if it's small or not? She has nothing to compare it too. That's the point that I was making. You seemed to have missed that.

 

Ummmm...no, you misunderstood. You said that you could 'tell her it was huge' and she wouldn't know if it was small. If you tell her it's huge, and it isn't, that is what is known as a 'lie.' I don't know if you have a small penis--I don't care if you have a small penis. The point is that that is a really...superficial reason. If your wife loves you, then she won't care whether you have a large or small penis; if you're worried about that, then marrying a virgin isn't going to solve the larger issue of your feelings of inadequacy. I'm not saying that you do have feelings of inadequacy, there is an 'if' in there

 

Ok, you've said everything that I said so far was ignorant and with poor logic.

 

Did I now. Please quote that for me, I can't seem to find the place where I said that.

 

Why not try eating pizza for the rest of your life. You are telling me that you would not grow to hate it? Are you calling sex a sport? Something that you need to practice at? I don't seem to agree here. Oh, right... Houston 500.... Hrm.. I guess there is some competition involved. ok. I guess it is a sport. Good thing she practiced before so that she could get that good. You don't seem to think that devalues sex. Yet, using your logic, it's ok to have sex with several people to practice I guess. Tell me that such things do not devalue sex. Yet, you seem to be on their side but saying having sex with multiple people is good becuz you practice... I guess for the big Houston 500... I'm sorry cuz you seem to feel that if you play JO for every minute for the rest of your life that you would not grow tired of it.

 

Why would I play JO every minute for the rest of my life? What does that have to do with masturbating, or having pre-marital sex?

 

Just because I have sex with people that I'm not married to, doesn't mean that I'm constantly having sex...it's not like they line up and come in one after another. It's also not like I spend every minute of every day with my hands down my pants.

 

You have taken my argument to an extreme, so let me do the same to yours.

 

-It would seem to me that since sex is such a wonderful, sacred act, you should only ever do it once. That would preserve the sacredness of the act and make it all the more special. That's what you really want, right?-

 

See how silly that sounds? See how it has nothing to do with your argument? In the same way, suggesting that my argument would lead to my having sex every second of every day is silly, and has nothing to do with my argument.

 

Now I put the - marks before and after it, to show that I don't really believe that, I don't really think you believe that, it's just an example of why taking things to their logical limit isn't very sensible

 

Read back what you just said. No offense, but you're an idiot. Your arguements are poor, and you're ignorant. Don't like my saying that? Tuff luck, cuz you told that to me like 500000 times. Yet you wonder why I take offense to that. Yet, you refuse to apologize. Fine, you can call me ignorant and say that my arguements are poor, I can say the same to you. Don't expect me to apologize.

 

That's blatant, and baseless flaming, and it really has no place here. Allow me to give you a definition, to help you understand what I mean sometimes:

 

ignorant: Unaware or uninformed

 

It isn't an insult, it's a state of being. I am ignorant about certain subjects, I am very aware of that. You are ignorant of certain subjects, and sometimes it comes across on here. My ignorance can come across as well.

 

Let me give you one more definition, so that perhaps you'll understand aomething else:

 

idiot: A foolish or stupid person

 

I am neither foolish, nor stupid. Say what you will about me, but the term idiot does not apply to me. I know that much

[Lime-Light]

Yeah...I hold the firm belief that this argment is over. It has mutated into a viscious circle of Vestril offending 123, 123 snapping back, and Vestril making a rebuttal. Plus me and these useless observations.

 

We have all expressed our opinions on religions, abortions, premaritatal sex, and each other fully. Unless someone disagrees, I think we need to put this beast to rest.

[Vestril]

Originally posted by Lime-Light

Yeah...I hold the firm belief that this argment is over. It has mutated into a viscious circle of Vestril offending 123, 123 snapping back, and Vestril making a rebuttal. Plus me and these useless observations.

 

We have all expressed our opinions on religions, abortions, premaritatal sex, and each other fully. Unless someone disagrees, I think we need to put this beast to rest.

 

That's the fun of these things . I'm just holding out for someone new to come in and say something interesting...

[Lime-Light]

something interesting.\

 

EDIT: once you get 1000 and get a custom rank, can you change it?

[Vestril]

Originally posted by Lime-Light

something interesting.\

 

EDIT: once you get 1000 and get a custom rank, can you change it?

 

Yup, you can change it as you want to. I like to use a system, mainly because...hrmmm...I'm a geek.

[123456789101112]

Vestril,

I read your reply up to a certain point about the e-mail. I sent you no e-mail. Look in this thread: http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=65585 . If it was sent by anyone other than user1337@hotmail.com, than it wasn't me. Sorry if this debate has gone to far in which it would lead to that point. Anyhow, I'll read the rest of the replies and the rest of your reply. I just wanted to get that straight.

[Qui-GONE Jinn]

Why end the discussion! I though it was a great read - many good points! Vestril, you da man..

[Vestril]

Originally posted by 123456789101112

Vestril,

I read your reply up to a certain point about the e-mail. I sent you no e-mail. Look in this thread: http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=65585 . If it was sent by anyone other than user1337@hotmail.com, than it wasn't me. Sorry if this debate has gone to far in which it would lead to that point. Anyhow, I'll read the rest of the replies and the rest of your reply. I just wanted to get that straight.

 

Ok, sorry for the assumption. I'm pretty sure whoever it was was angry about this thread though, since it's really the only place where I've done anything I would consider particularly note-worthy...

[Lime-Light]

Originally posted by Qui-GONE Jinn

Why end the discussion! I though it was a great read - many good points! Vestril, you da man..

 

add something then!

[-[MotU]-Lyger|=-]

Ya know, i really dont care if you believe in god or not. i dont even know why you put this thread. its kinda funny to hate someone cause of what the believe in.

[123456789101112]

Look, I don't hate any one cuz of their beliefs. My friend is an atheist. I really don't care what you belief, though I would hope that for your sake you believe in God. Anyhow, this is merely a debate. I'm sorry if I made my last posts seem angered. They weren't. It's nice to see that, when being questioned about your beliefs, that you are able to defend them. Anyhow, let's continue.

 

You say this: "It's easy to say to me 'its a human life' it's not so easy to explain to a young girl who made a mistake that the tiny collection of cells residing in her body is worth completely ruining her life."

 

Though her life may be better after she has an abortion, what about the child's. It may be ruined her life, but the child's will be completely ruined. The child has no say. Honestly, abortions will happen no matter what sometimes, even though they are wrong. However, if you can help prevent one, that is great. She made a mistake, should she not pay the consequences? Maybe it is a little harsh, but still. You gotta think that she choose to do something, knowing what could happen, and now wants to back out of it. Yes, people make mistakes. She got caught up in the moment. Looking at it a different way though, that's why some murders take place. You see Minority Report? This won't give anything away. The first guy was going to kill her wife cuz she was having an affair. It would have been a crime of passion. How would you like to see your wife in bed with another guy. I would be upset too. He got caught up in the moment too. Say he killed them. Should he be accountable for what he did?

 

You say this: " I was raised a Catholic, I went to Catholic school, I am willing to bet that I have been more thoroughly educated in the Bible than you have, yet I still don't have a problem with pre-marital sex."

 

Whoa. whoa. Not to brag, but I am on summer break right now. When I go back to school, I will be a senior in High School. I go to one of the finest schools in the state. No joking. They can take their Theology classes pretty seriously there. I definatly learned a lot. I feel that I am thoroughly educated too. They present the material to me, and I choose to accept it. I sincerely don't see how you could have gone to a Catholic school and have not been taught these things that I am presenting to you. I will have a hard time swallowing that one.

 

You say: "Education is nothing compared to horomones."

 

I really can say that your statement can be true some of the times. Though, education does mean something when it comes to those situations. You can't think that it has no affect, do you? You can't rule that out entirely. I would think that it does have some affect. Plus, you seem to think that condoms are the cure-all. They are not. Sure, they may be the most affective against transmitting STD's and getting pregnant, but that's not always true. People who were condoms have goten the other person pregnant. Same with STD's. You're not always 100% sure. You have to be open and willing to have children. You're not even supposed to use condoms, yet if you are going to do it, use it. You shouldn't do it though. What you are saying is that yes do it and wear a condom. I am saying no don't do it, but if you do anyways and ignore my advice, at least use a condom.

 

You say: "When women have sex for the first time, they might bleed, if their hymen (I think that's the spelling) hasn't already been broken in some other way (which is very possible, it's a delicate membrane).

 

I have no idea as to the bleeding from anal sex, I wouldn't have thought there would be any, but I haven't tried it either. I don't find your logic too convincing though...I mean it's a hole, and fingers sometimes go in for medical reasons (checking up on the 'ol prostate) or even objects or liquids (enema's). So it isn't like if something goes...*ahem* up in there, it's the end of the world."

 

That's true about the hymen, but that can also occur from tampon usage so that doesn't count. Yes, you do bleed from anal sex, trust me.(though, I have no experience there.) That's why it is the number 1 method of transfering AIDS. Cuz you got two things: the seamen and the blood. Both carry AIDS. That's why it is so easy to get AIDS through anal sex. I'm surprised they didn't teach you that...

 

 

you say: "If they succed in life, then it seems to me that the same-sex marraige didn't hurt them at all...and I mean succed in the sense that they become productive, happy human beings.

"

 

They may succeed in life. It will not be in teh child's best interest though. It's normal to have a mom and a dad right? He may grow up to think that it's ok to be in a relationship with another man. It's wrong. A guy and a guy can not produce a child. It's not right or fair to give the child the impression that that's ok. First of all, homosexuals are fine. They are just not able to act upon their homosexuality. They can't have children together. Sex is love communicating and has openess to having a child. You can't have a child with two men. If you can't have a child, than how are you expressing your love? A child is the product of two people's love. It is unfortunate if a couple can not have a child.

 

You say: "Ummmm...no, you misunderstood."

 

Ummmmm.... no, you misunderstood. I was merely saying that she would have nothing to compare it too. It was supposed to go no further than that. I was just making a simple statement. She wouldn't know if it's big or not cuz she has nothing to compare it to. Simple as that. That statement goes no further than that.

 

You say: "Why would I play JO every minute for the rest of my life? What does that have to do with masturbating, or having pre-marital sex?"

 

Fine, masturbate or have sex every minute of your life and tell me that you would not grow tired of that. The simple fact is that you would. It's a analogy. I know that you wouldn't really do that but imagine if you were to do that. I know for a fact that it would get boring after a while. It may be sweet for like the first little while, but you will eventually tire of it.

 

You say: "It would seem to me that since sex is such a wonderful, sacred act, you should only ever do it once. That would preserve the sacredness of the act and make it all the more special. That's what you really want, right?"

 

Once you get married, have all the sex you want. You just have to be open to having children. If you have sex before you are married, there is no love and no commintment.

 

You say that masturbation is fine. Why not masturbate in front of other people? If it's ok and since a lot of other people do it, why not? I wouldn't do somwthing that I know is wrong in front of my parents. What, why wouldn't you do it in front of your parents? Is it just a personal thing between you and your hand? Seriously. Everything that I think is fine and dandy I would do in front of my parents. Seems logical right? I can't think of one thing that I wouldn't do in front of my parents that isn't bad.

 

One last thing. You seem to think that so many things here are ok. Abortions are ok some of the time, masturbation is alright, pre-marital sex is fine, acting upon your homosexuality is fine too. What do you think is bad?

[Vestril]

Though her life may be better after she has an abortion, what about the child's. It may be ruined her life, but the child's will be completely ruined. The child has no say. Honestly, abortions will happen no matter what sometimes, even though they are wrong. However, if you can help prevent one, that is great. She made a mistake, should she not pay the consequences? Maybe it is a little harsh, but still. You gotta think that she choose to do something, knowing what could happen, and now wants to back out of it. Yes, people make mistakes. She got caught up in the moment. Looking at it a different way though, that's why some murders take place. You see Minority Report? This won't give anything away. The first guy was going to kill her wife cuz she was having an affair. It would have been a crime of passion. How would you like to see your wife in bed with another guy. I would be upset too. He got caught up in the moment too. Say he killed them. Should he be accountable for what he did?

 

I didn't say it wasn't wrong. I just said that it would be callous to call her a murderer, and it would be callous to treat her like a murderer, she was a frightened child, and most of us would have done the same exact thing. That is the difference between general murder and abortion. If I saw a man having sex with my wife, I might think about killing him, but I probably wouldn't. However, if I was a 15 year old girl who was pregnant because of a stupid mistake, I might have an abortion, that would be terrifying. I would be a hypocrite if I cast that stone, if you take my meaning.

 

Whoa. whoa. Not to brag, but I am on summer break right now. When I go back to school, I will be a senior in High School. I go to one of the finest schools in the state. No joking. They can take their Theology classes pretty seriously there. I definatly learned a lot. I feel that I am thoroughly educated too. They present the material to me, and I choose to accept it. I sincerely don't see how you could have gone to a Catholic school and have not been taught these things that I am presenting to you. I will have a hard time swallowing that one.

 

I have heard all of the stuff you're presenting to me. You have not yet put forth an idea I have never heard before. I could actually argue against myself pretty well

 

I am saying no don't do it, but if you do anyways and ignore my advice, at least use a condom.

 

Oh, cool that's all I was hoping for. Many christians are against any sort of contraceptives being out there at all, banning them and whatnot (or at least many that I've talked to) and that would just be silly, I mean kids would still be having sex. Anyway, glad we're on the same page.

 

Just to clairfy, my personal belief on the subject came from hard experience, I learned that feels better to kiss someone you love than have sex with someone you don't care about. I don't worry about the marraige issue, but I don't see a point in being with someone you don't have strong feelings with.

 

That's true about the hymen, but that can also occur from tampon usage so that doesn't count. Yes, you do bleed from anal sex, trust me.(though, I have no experience there.) That's why it is the number 1 method of transfering AIDS. Cuz you got two things: the seamen and the blood. Both carry AIDS. That's why it is so easy to get AIDS through anal sex. I'm surprised they didn't teach you that...

 

They probably did back in health class...5 years ago lol, but I don't think I was paying too much attention because I didn't really plan on having anal sex lol. Anyway, blood != unnatural...IMO, anyway.

 

They may succeed in life. It will not be in teh child's best interest though. It's normal to have a mom and a dad right? He may grow up to think that it's ok to be in a relationship with another man. It's wrong. A guy and a guy can not produce a child. It's not right or fair to give the child the impression that that's ok. First of all, homosexuals are fine. They are just not able to act upon their homosexuality. They can't have children together. Sex is love communicating and has openess to having a child. You can't have a child with two men. If you can't have a child, than how are you expressing your love? A child is the product of two people's love. It is unfortunate if a couple can not have a child.

 

Why is it unfortunate? The world is overpopulated. There are a LOT of children in orphanages. Couples who take on a child (be they same sex or different sexes) are admirable.

 

Welllllll, the idea that homosexuality is wrong is a theory, not a fact. It is your belief, not everyones. Also, being raised in a homosexual family does not turn a person into a homosexual. It is a state of being.

 

People who are homosexuals do not have a choice. This is really obvious, right? I mean, people have been beaten up, murdered, ostracized, all because they're homosexuals. If they could choose to be attracted to women, I'm sure many of them would. I have a friend who is bisexual who fights it extremely hard, she tells herself that she's a horrible person, that she should only like boys, but she still likes girls.

 

Also, you seem to have this idea that the only way a couple can express their love is by having a child...and that makes me wonder. For example, I know that I should never have a child, I would be a terrible father, I would raise a son poorly. My son would be a confused and terrible person, and I should not throw that at the world. Does that mean that I can never marry? There are many people like me, people who shouldn't have children, and I don't think that we should be left out of the loving proccess.

 

What about people who are impotent? If they can't have children does that mean that they won't ever be able to experience true love?

 

If that is the case then god, as you see it, is a very cruel person

 

Ummmmm.... no, you misunderstood. I was merely saying that she would have nothing to compare it too. It was supposed to go no further than that. I was just making a simple statement. She wouldn't know if it's big or not cuz she has nothing to compare it to. Simple as that. That statement goes no further than that.

 

I was referring to the fact that you seemed to think I was insulting you about your penis size...which I wasn't

 

You say: "Why would I play JO every minute for the rest of my life? What does that have to do with masturbating, or having pre-marital sex?"

 

Fine, masturbate or have sex every minute of your life and tell me that you would not grow tired of that. The simple fact is that you would. It's a analogy. I know that you wouldn't really do that but imagine if you were to do that. I know for a fact that it would get boring after a while. It may be sweet for like the first little while, but you will eventually tire of it.

 

I already answered this concern, the argument you are using here is wrong, and I already explained why, I'll quote myself here:

 

You have taken my argument to an extreme, so let me do the same to yours.

 

-It would seem to me that since sex is such a wonderful, sacred act, you should only ever do it once. That would preserve the sacredness of the act and make it all the more special. That's what you really want, right?-

 

See how silly that sounds? See how it has nothing to do with your argument? In the same way, suggesting that my argument would lead to my having sex every second of every day is silly, and has nothing to do with my argument.

 

Now I put the - marks before and after it, to show that I don't really believe that, I don't really think you believe that, it's just an example of why taking things to their logical limit isn't very sensible

 

Ok? Do you see why saying 'masturbating every second of your life would suck' is a poor argument? If you say it's a good argument, then I will start using the 'only have sex once in your life argument' which I already think is stupid...

 

 

Once you get married, have all the sex you want. You just have to be open to having children. If you have sex before you are married, there is no love and no commintment.

 

It wasn't an actual argument. I went to great pains to show that it wasn't an actual argument. Why are you responding to it? The point was that that is what you did to me. I said that masturbating was OK, so you said 'well you wouldn't like it if you masturbated every second of your life,' which had nothing to do with my argument. So to show you how silly that was, I did it to your argument:----You say that you should only have sex after marraige because it makes it more special, well it would make it ultra-special to only do it once, but you wouldn't like that, therefore you're wrong that only having sex after marraige is wrong.--- The stuff in --- and in bold is the fake argument, the one that shows you why taking things to the logical limit is wrong. Do you understand?

 

You say that masturbation is fine. Why not masturbate in front of other people? If it's ok and since a lot of other people do it, why not? I wouldn't do somwthing that I know is wrong in front of my parents. What, why wouldn't you do it in front of your parents? Is it just a personal thing between you and your hand? Seriously. Everything that I think is fine and dandy I would do in front of my parents. Seems logical right? I can't think of one thing that I wouldn't do in front of my parents that isn't bad.

 

Do you shower in front of your parents? Do you go to the bathroom in front of your parents? Is showering or going to the bathroom bad? If you were married, would you have sex with your wife in front of your parents? Is having sex with your parents bad? No...it didn't seem logical, sorry .

 

One last thing. You seem to think that so many things here are ok. Abortions are ok some of the time, masturbation is alright, pre-marital sex is fine, acting upon your homosexuality is fine too. What do you think is bad?

 

No...abortions are never ok, but the truth is that we can't stop women from commiting them, and we can't arrest them for it without being hypocritical and bad, so leave it to god to judge.

 

Doing something that you yourself consider to be wrong, is wrong. If I believe that murder is wrong, and I murder someone, then I have done wrong. Beyond that it's just a matter of social adjustment. People who murder and steal without guilt don't fit into society, so we try to adjust them.

[Wacky_Baccy]

I'm not quite ready to discuss the abortion issue yet, but I'll add my piece about the rest.

 

By 123

Plus, you seem to think that condoms are the cure-all. They are not.

 

He hardly said that...

 

By Vestril

With the condoms, some of them [kids] will have unprotected sex, without the condoms, most of them will have unprotected sex.

 

He said that it makes a big difference, not that it was a cure-all.

 

By 123

People who were condoms have goten the other person pregnant.

 

But almost never if it's in-date and used properly.

 

It's normal to have a mom and a dad right?

 

Yes, I can't disagree there, but surely it would be in a child's best interests to have two loving parents (regardless of their gender/sexuality) rather than one (i.e. single parents), so I can't see how a child with two fathers or two mothers would have less of a chance at a normal, happy and successful life than a child with only one parent, or two heterosexual parents, for that matter.

 

He may grow up to think that it's ok to be in a relationship with another man. It's wrong.

 

You say that as if it were a fact; it's not. It's your opinion.

 

A guy and a guy can not produce a child.

 

Biologically, that's obviously true, but it in no way means that they couldn't care for and raise a child as well as or even better than a heterosexual couple, which is what you seem to be implying.

 

It's not right or fair to give the child the impression that that's ok.

 

Why? Because you personally don't believe it's okay?

 

I don't consider it right or fair to give a child the impression that it's not okay - if the child is homosexual, and he's told that this is a bad thing, then he is going to hate himself for seemingly being 'socially unnacceptable' through no fault of his own; it could scar him for life.

 

First of all, homosexuals are fine. They are just not able to act upon their homosexuality.

 

Do you mean you'd "rather they didn't"? Because I can assure you that they can and they do act on it.

 

They can't have children together. Sex is love communicating and has openess to having a child. You can't have a child with two men.

 

Is an "openness to having a child" always a part of sex between a man and a woman? No. It's not. Sex is not just about children; it's about showing love and trust, it's a way of bringing two people closer together, it's about pleasure.

 

If you can't have a child, than how are you expressing your love?

 

So you're also saying that if a heterosexual couple are unable to have children for whatever reason, then they aren't able to express their love for one another through sex?

 

...And regardless of that, I you said that sex itself was 'love communicating', so you're rather contradicting yourself there...

 

A child is the product of two people's love.

 

That's not always true, but I do see your point.

 

It is unfortunate if a couple can not have a child.

Yes, it certainly is, but there are other options (adoption, fostering, etc.), so not all is lost.

 

 

@Vestril: How was that for my first proper 'debate post'?

 

 

--Edit-- (I only just saw Vestril's post)

 

Damn. I knew I shouldn't have gone to make that sandwich

 

Oh well, my opinions/points can still be shared...

[Vestril]

Good job wacky, that was your first? I thought you made your points better than I made mine. Anyway, don't feel bad that you and I posted around the same time--the more the merrier

[Guest King Andrei]

Originally posted by Lime-Light

do you hate me if I dont believe in god?

 

I don't hate anyone because he/she has different beliefs. What kind of thread is this anyway?

[Kurgan]

I would love to jump into this discussion, unfortunatley I've had a few almost identical to it (though it went into somewhat different directions) awhile back. Was interesting to say the least. ; )

 

Anyhow, one bit I'd add to this is that (regardless of how you feel about homosexuality and its rightness/wrongness/naturalness) I think you could argue that a heterosexual couple could have an advantage over a same-sex couple raising a child because it would give the child role models to live with for both males and females.

 

I think most child psychologists would agree that children get their earliest models of how men and women are supposed to behave from their parents. Obviously, not everyone is lucky enough to have two good parents of each gender like this, but I think you see where I'm coming from.

 

Keep the discussion going, as long as it can be done in a civilized manner (as many seem inclined to do) I say go for it... ; )