I Pledge Allegiance.

[Jem]

How can I? Simple, like this: I don't care.

 

And why do I not care? because there is nothing to care for. For me life is meaningless and we are nothing. We just come and go and will eventually cease to exist.

 

And I do like beethoven, I don't love, only like, I'm not fanatical. I like music even if it's just perculiar noise caused by vibration in air...

[edlib]

That's kind of a philosophy in it's own way, Jem.

The way you phrased that statement really reminds me of that character in the 'Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy' series (in 'Resturaunt at the End...' I believe) that believes in nothing other than what he can personally observe at the moment it's happening. Unless he's seeing it with his own eyes it doesn't exist. He doesn't even believe in things he's observed before if they aren't currently happening.

So, naturally he's the ruler of the galaxy.

He makes absolutely no assumptions of the universe. I always thought that was a refreshing way to see the world.

 

(I don't know if you ever read it or not. If not you should! On a somewhat related note: It didn't really surprise me to learn that Douglas Adams was an rather ardent atheist. Hmmm....)

[Keyan Farlander]

Originally posted by Jem

How can I? Simple, like this: I don't care.

 

And why do I not care? because there is nothing to care for. For me life is meaningless and we are nothing. We just come and go and will eventually cease to exist.

 

That's quite ... unnatural. I'm not even sure I believe you. Does this mean you fully understand how the universe came to be as it is today? If the answer is no, then you have no intellectual justification for your stance on the matter.

[superthrawn]

It seems I still cause controversy.

 

Yes, I do believe that Columbine, and other school shootings were a result of the lack of significant moral compasses in our schools. I believe that God allowed these things to happen as a wake-up call. And of course, we ignored him. I believe AIDS is God's answer to the rampant sexual promiscuity of the '60's and '70's. It seems that this has been marginally more effective, schools are actually teaching abstinence again. (Something I thank God for. If just one person can be deterred, then all the better.) You see, there are consequences of what we do. We must pay a price for what we do wrong. It's law no matter how you look at it. Hepatitis, Emphesyma, (sp?) all these are consequences for the lives we've lived.

 

Secondly, I am a Fundamentalist. And I don't appreciate being compared to the Taliban. I don't want to screen out everyone, I don't want force conversion to Christianity. That would be far too much like the Catholics of the Middle Ages. (Yes, I'll admit that Christianity has had it's problems. Catholicism is, well, wrong. In the Middle Ages it became more of a control force than a religious belief. That is why, still today, Catholics are the only major Christ-centered religion to claim that you need good works in addition to Faith to be saved. Something that flies completely in the face of what the Bible says. Don't even get me started on Purgatory.)

 

About Evolution. I do believe in Natural Selection. It's impossible not to. It happens every day. What I cannot believe is that by random chance higher beings evolved from a spontaneous explosion and random combination of materials. The odds against the Big Bang are high enough. Simple physics would tell you that all matter in the universe, combined into a small lump would have too much gravity to explode. You would naturally see it collapse further, not move out. (Although there is an interesting new physics theory that says it's possible that instead of a big explosion, all of the matter in the Universe has thought to have come from something that is most easily described as a White Hole. I.E. it expells matter instead of sucking it in. Perhaps I'll extrapolate on this idea, if you want me to. It's pretty complex. But even the physicist who thought it up concedes that, although it's chances are higher than the Big Bang, they are still low enough that for it to happen it would most likely need a higher power guiding it's actions. GASP! Could that be the Fingerprint of God!? And this physicist is an admitted Atheist.)

 

About using science to disprove science. First off, I hate the way we place "science" (or technology) upon a pedestal and worship it. We see science as some huge, all-powerful, guiding force in our lives. Yet, it is rare that we are ever actually right about what is going on. We've revised almost all our observations about the way things work so many times it's begining to look like a First Grader wrote them, there are so many eraser marks. I believe we have discovered things in science because God has shown them to us. Not because we are great, but because He is.

 

About education. I'm a genius, proven so. I couldn't care less what kind of schooling I get, I'm more advanced than most of my peers will ever be. What I am worried about though, is the fact that I won't be able to run the world to keep things in order. Stupid people who've gone through stupid Public Schools are going to have a hand in things, and this downward spiral will continue.

 

About those of you who are scared that I might rule the world. No one denies the existence of Solomon. He just about ruled the known world, and very well I might add. No one chafed under his rule, and he was a very godly man. Lets face it. There are very few people who take Hindus seriously outside of Asia Minor, Islam is simply a spinoff of Judiaism, and Bhuddism is little more than pointed Atheism. So, when you're judged, you can't say you didn't know, or that no one ever said anything.

 

My final question. To the Atheists: Why do you follow rules? Why do you have morals? What exactly do you hope for by following any sort of moral code?

[Jem]

Originally posted by edlib

That's kind of a philosophy in it's own way, Jem.

 

Yeah I know, I didn't say I'm a "no philosophy" guy, I'm just not really on to it but it eventually appears from time to time. It's a bit like when I say "Oh my god!" whereas I don't believe in god...I don't think the comparison is good but nevermind.

I will definatly check out that book, even if I don't like sci-fi reading maybe this will be an exeption.

 

posted by Keyan:

Does this mean you fully understand how the universe came to be as it is today? If the answer is no, then you have no intellectual justification for your stance on the matter.

 

No I don't, even if science has it's theories everything isn't fully explained nor precise but hey, man cannot have knowledge of everything, things will remain a mystery to all of us but maybe not forever... I remember seeing these series of documentary: "Stephan Hawk's Universe" and they were talking about the equation of the universe, that's when this guy said that maybe some things are destined to not be known by man, and it has as much chance to understand it as a pig has to understand Calculus. It's like the science of Probabilities, Einstein didn't beleive in them because he claimed that it existed due to man's lack to scientificly predict or calculate all. (reminds me of Action Man, would be cool if everything could be calculated like he does...)

The fact that I do not fully understand how the universe came to be as it is today doesn't automatically mean that I should believe in some god, it just means that I don't know and that's it. Maybe it will be eventually discovered some day, who knows? It's exactly like in the very old days when they had no idea how a rainbow came to be and immediatly put in relation to a theological event, it was once thought it was some sign from god that relief would be brought to man and of course that turned out to be complete nonsense. All of this brings us back to the first comment I made on saying that religion was created to explain things man could not himself.

 

Anyways the man idea is that I don't believe in god and that's it, I'm not trying to replace the theories created by religion by something else, I just don't believe in them, it's as simple as that.

 

 

superthrawn posted:

To the Atheists: Why do you follow rules? Why do you have morals? What exactly do you hope for by following any sort of moral code?

 

In fact we are evil underground beast that come only at night to haunt mortals and prey on their children's blood. With our lifeless eyes of sin and our shadows taller than our souls we are forever cursed by bloodlust and hunger for the living's flesh.

[edlib]

Originally posted by Jem

I will definatly check out that book, even if I don't like sci-fi reading maybe this will be an exeption.

Actually it's comedy, with a sci-fi theme. Really funny.

[Cmdr. Cracken]

Originally posted by superthrawn

My final question. To the Atheists: Why do you follow rules? Why do you have morals? What exactly do you hope for by following any sort of moral code?

 

WHAAA?! Just because we're athiests, does not mean we don't have morals to live by.... welll... at least MY athiest friends have them. I always thought no matter what you believed in, you still have to put up with your fellow man for another 60 years, so you might as well try to be nice.

 

The rule thing? now your starting to standered confusion of Athiest=Anarchist. not always true. I always support some type of rule, because, now, this is all theoretical, if human society abolished all government, the current ones, and were left to our own devices, we'd kill eachother, and then the survivors would start there own regiemes, once again placeing A government in power. Government gives some people "safety", and less to worry about.

 

Oh, and i live by morals, good ones, to maybe one day be able to say, yeah, i helped ONE human being. I did what i needed to do.

 

and that, methinks, is what life is really about.

[edlib]

Originally posted by superthrawn

It seems I still cause controversy.Yes, I do believe that Columbine, and other school shootings were a result of the lack of significant moral compasses in our schools.

I think that ultimately the whole thing comes down to whether or not you think the principal of "Seperation between Church and State" is a good thing or not. Personally, I think it is. And I think this issue has EVERYTHING to do with upholding that principal.

Do you really think the government and/or the school system should be in the business of making us all acknowledge the existence of God? Isn't that a job more suited for parents and preachers? Do you really think the underfunded, overcrowded schools and the (often proven to be corrupt) government should be in the "God business"? What happened to parents teaching morals to thier kids? Trust me... if you tell kids about the 10 Commandments at school but they aren't being taught the same thing at home, by rote but more importantly BY EXAMPLE, it's not going to mean anything to them. On the other hand; if they are being taught this at home then why would you need the public school system teaching them as well. Wouldn't time spent in school be better spent leaning the things you aren't going to be taught at home and church.

If the Government is to get into the business of enforcing religious beliefs, then which ones? Putting aside all the American citizens who don't believe in a Judeo-Christian belief system for the moment, there are hundreds of different flavors of Christianity and several types of Judaism in this country; which is the one to get officially adopted and taught? Who gets to choose? What happens to those who disagree or choose to practice some other way? You cannot make Americans agree on a single political party, how will anybody ever get them to agree on a single definition for Christian teachings in the classroom?

Which version of creationism is to be the official American teaching as opposed to evolution? I've heard several different takes on it (from 7 literal 24-hour days 6000 years ago to a non-literal 7 discreet events that took place at an indeterminate time in the distant past with man being created much later.) What if the version chosen as the offical one to be taught doesn't jive with your personal beliefs? What then?

This is why the Government HAS to stay out of these matters and let each American choose for themselves what is the proper way, including those who choose not to believe anything religious at all. By letting "under God" stay in the country's official oath of alliegence, and making it a requirement to say it when pledging, the Government is setting itself up for the position of determining matters of faith for it's citizens.

I believe that God allowed these things to happen as a wake-up call. And of course, we ignored him. I believe AIDS is God's answer to the rampant sexual promiscuity of the '60's and '70's. It seems that this has been marginally more effective, schools are actually teaching abstinence again. (Something I thank God for. If just one person can be deterred, then all the better.) You see, there are consequences of what we do. We must pay a price for what we do wrong. It's law no matter how you look at it. Hepatitis, Emphesyma, (sp?) all these are consequences for the lives we've lived.

Secondly, I am a Fundamentalist. And I don't appreciate being compared to the Taliban.

I didn't mean to compare you specifically to the Taliban, but if the government is to be involved with enforcing a belief system for it's citizens that's ultimately where things will end up.

I don't want to screen out everyone, I don't want force conversion to Christianity. That would be far too much like the Catholics of the Middle Ages. (Yes, I'll admit that Christianity has had it's problems. Catholicism is, well, wrong. In the Middle Ages it became more of a control force than a religious belief. That is why, still today, Catholics are the only major Christ-centered religion to claim that you need good works in addition to Faith to be saved. Something that flies completely in the face of what the Bible says. Don't even get me started on Purgatory.)

I'm gonna let Keyan field these ones.

 

About Evolution. I do believe in Natural Selection. It's impossible not to. It happens every day. What I cannot believe is that by random chance higher beings evolved from a spontaneous explosion and random combination of materials. The odds against the Big Bang are high enough. Simple physics would tell you that all matter in the universe, combined into a small lump would have too much gravity to explode. You would naturally see it collapse further, not move out. (Although there is an interesting new physics theory that says it's possible that instead of a big explosion, all of the matter in the Universe has thought to have come from something that is most easily described as a White Hole. I.E. it expells matter instead of sucking it in. Perhaps I'll extrapolate on this idea, if you want me to. It's pretty complex. But even the physicist who thought it up concedes that, although it's chances are higher than the Big Bang, they are still low enough that for it to happen it would most likely need a higher power guiding it's actions. GASP! Could that be the Fingerprint of God!? And this physicist is an admitted Atheist.)

About using science to disprove science. First off, I hate the way we place "science" (or technology) upon a pedestal and worship it. We see science as some huge, all-powerful, guiding force in our lives. Yet, it is rare that we are ever actually right about what is going on. We've revised almost all our observations about the way things work so many times it's begining to look like a First Grader wrote them, there are so many eraser marks. I believe we have discovered things in science because God has shown them to us. Not because we are great, but because He is.

I think athiesm within the scientific method is desirable, if not totally nessisary. Otherwise you run the chance of skewing the results of any experimental data you may gather. A lot of really, REALLY BAD 'science' has been published by people trying to justify something found in the Bible with hard experimental data.

Science doesn't claim to have all the answers yet. In fact, I think most good scientists would admit to not knowing more than we currently do. Theories get disproved by experiment, and new discoveries sometimes overrule past ones, but the current pictures we have about the way the universe behaves at the macro and micro scales are far more accurate than anything mankind has ever had in the past.

Some scientists are religious, (Einstien was) but the best ones claim to put all that aside when viewing results.

About education. I'm a genius, proven so. I couldn't care less what kind of schooling I get, I'm more advanced than most of my peers will ever be. What I am worried about though, is the fact that I won't be able to run the world to keep things in order. Stupid people who've gone through stupid Public Schools are going to have a hand in things, and this downward spiral will continue. About those of you who are scared that I might rule the world.

I'm not afraid of that at all.

Lets face it. There are very few people who take Hindus seriously outside of Asia Minor, Islam is simply a spinoff of Judiaism, and Bhuddism is little more than pointed Atheism. So, when you're judged, you can't say you didn't know, or that no one ever said anything.

You just described more that 2/3rds of the worlds population in that one sentence! I wouldn't be so dismissive with numbers like that.

Christians are often known in other parts of the world as being amazingly intolerant of any other views, and now I'm beginning to see why. Some of these religions that are not viewed "seriously" are far, far older than Judiaism, let alone Christianity. BILLIONS of people have taken them seriously, and I have no reason to think that will change in coming centuries. You may not believe them, but I don't think you should dismiss them that easily.

 

Another thing to remember: Other religions think they have the sole grasp on "THE TRUTH" too. You would be viewed as the hopelessly misinformed one in need of saving.

 

I really wish Zoomie was around for this.

 

If you don't like the way a fundementally extremist regime like the Taliban operated, then it's crucially important that you don't find yourself guilty of practicing some of the same techniques, or even being possesed of a similar mindset. You can't force other Americans to see things the same way as you. If they disagree with your points of view, then they have every right to. Our rights as American citizens to choose our own path through life, religiously (or not!) or politically, is what sets this country so far apart from much of the rest of the world. It's also why many of these other nations dislike us so much. If you try to take that away by forcing a standarized set of beliefs on Americans who don't wish it, then it would be no different than those other places.

I don't want that, and I'm sure niether do you.

 

My final question. To the Atheists: Why do you follow rules? Why do you have morals? What exactly do you hope for by following any sort of moral code?

Already been answered, but ultimately civilization equals morality. For humans to interact there has to be an agreed upon moral code. But it doesn't have to come from a diety. The Greeks and the Romans, who's examples we have followed in building modern civilization were muti-pantheonic pagan societies, but there was always an established moral code in dealing with other citizens. It should be no different with athiests. To live in our society they will be expected to follow the same moral code that all the others, including religious people, have agreed upon. It's called democracy, and it doesn't need to be spiritually based to work.

We can all live peacefully side by side despite all of our differences. Isn't that what our country stands for?

[Jem]

And another thing, believing in god and in a religion doesn't necessarily mean that you have morals, look at the Taliban...

 

by edlib:

I'm gonna let Keyan field these ones.

 

That's why I didn't bother replying him, this is gonna be good.

 

by edlib, again:

Actually it's comedy, with a sci-fi theme. Really funny.

 

I love a good laugh, comedy rules, so I will check it out once I'm in Canada.

[Zargon]

Originally posted by superthrawn

About education. I'm a genius, proven so. I couldn't care less what kind of schooling I get, I'm more advanced than most of my peers will ever be. What I am worried about though, is the fact that I won't be able to run the world to keep things in order. Stupid people who've gone through stupid Public Schools are going to have a hand in things, and this downward spiral will continue.

 

Um...proven how, IQ doesn't equate genious, I know some very high IQ'd people who are total wetbags when it cfomes to critical thinking. And besides, that sounds like bragging, which is pride, isn't that a sin?

 

About those of you who are scared that I might rule the world. No one denies the existence of Solomon. He just about ruled the known world, and very well I might add. No one chafed under his rule, and he was a very godly man.

 

How did his kingdom fall again? His father was a very godly man and a great king, and didn't he have a man killed so he could nail his wife?

 

Lets face it. There are very few people who take Hindus seriously outside of Asia Minor, Islam is simply a spinoff of Judiaism, and Bhuddism is little more than pointed Atheism.

 

Bull****, major bull****

 

So, when you're judged, you can't say you didn't know, or that no one ever said anything.

 

And next post superthrawn declares a christian jihad on us....

[Tierce]

 

Jeez...talk about arrogance

 

Catholics are the only major Christ-centered religion to claim that you need good works in addition to Faith to be saved. Something that flies completely in the face of what the Bible says.

 

(James 2:24 NRSV) You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

 

(James 2:17 NRSV) So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.

 

(James 2:20 NRSV) Do you want to be shown, you senseless person, that faith apart from works is barren?

 

(James 2:14 NRSV) What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but do not have works? Can faith save you?

 

 

 

Zargon I think you mean David..Solomon's father

 

And as for Solomon..."The Bible gives us the reasons for the king's downfall. He loved many strange women and he allowed them to continue their own forms of worship, defiling the Holy City with their foreign rituals and gods. And the aging Solomon not only tolerated this paganism but also indulged in it himself."

http://www.intournet.co.il/holyland/vol4-1-1.html

 

Very Holy indeed

[Keyan Farlander]

Originally posted by superthrawn

Catholicism is, well, wrong.

 

If you deny the bride of Christ, you deny Christ. The Catholic Church is indisputably the only church to retain all the teachings of the apostles and the original Christians. You need only cast an eye over the letters they wrote to one another to see that. That said, there are other churches that retain valid orders and consequently valid sacraments. However, no Fundamentalists are to be found among them. There is no particularly Fundamentalist doctrine to be found in early Christianity, and that is a fact. Anything that did resemble it was quickly and correctly identified as heresy.

 

That is why, still today, Catholics are the only major Christ-centered religion to claim that you need good works in addition to Faith to be saved.

 

No, Catholics are the only major Christ-centered religion to claim that you need good works in addition to faith to be saved because that is what Christ taught, that is what the apostles taught, and that is what the other Church Fathers taught. This is the authentic and propper teaching regarding salvation, and it has been present in the Church from its earliest days.

 

Something that flies completely in the face of what the Bible says.

 

No, it doesn't. Here's where you need to show your stuff, super-genius. I challenge you to find anywhere in the Bible that teaches this. And pulling verses out of context and perverting their meaning to support your argument doesn't count. Can you do it? Because I can identify several places where the exact opposite is taught.

 

Don't even get me started on Purgatory.

 

No, I think you've embarrassed yourself enough for one day.

 

THANK YOU, DRIVE THROUGH.

[Keyan Farlander]

Originally posted by Jem

No I don't, even if science has it's theories everything isn't fully explained nor precise but hey, man cannot have knowledge of everything, things will remain a mystery to all of us but maybe not forever... I remember seeing these series of documentary: "Stephan Hawk's Universe" and they were talking about the equation of the universe, that's when this guy said that maybe some things are destined to not be known by man, and it has as much chance to understand it as a pig has to understand Calculus. It's like the science of Probabilities, Einstein didn't beleive in them because he claimed that it existed due to man's lack to scientificly predict or calculate all. (reminds me of Action Man, would be cool if everything could be calculated like he does...)

The fact that I do not fully understand how the universe came to be as it is today doesn't automatically mean that I should believe in some god, it just means that I don't know and that's it. Maybe it will be eventually discovered some day, who knows? It's exactly like in the very old days when they had no idea how a rainbow came to be and immediatly put in relation to a theological event, it was once thought it was some sign from god that relief would be brought to man and of course that turned out to be complete nonsense. All of this brings us back to the first comment I made on saying that religion was created to explain things man could not himself.

 

Anyways the man idea is that I don't believe in god and that's it, I'm not trying to replace the theories created by religion by something else, I just don't believe in them, it's as simple as that.

 

You see? You freely admit that you don't know. Unless you have complete and total knowledge of the universe, you can never be certain that there is no God. And if you DID, then YOU would be God (that's a bit philosophical and little vague, but I think you get the idea).

 

Proving something DOESN'T exist is quite hard - especially something like this. And that's why it is impossible to hold to formal, dogmatic atheism. You "believe" in something you cannot possibly justify. On the other hand, I CAN justify my belief in God, because I have personally observed his effect on the world, and so have others, even to a far greater extent than I (the non-Christian witnesses at Fatima, for example). Not to mention the numerous proofs of God's existence that you must have studied in philosophy class...

 

At any rate, I sense you are more of a philosophically lazy agnostic than a true atheist. It seems to be more a lack of interest for you. I suspect this will change as you grow older.

[Keyan Farlander]

One more thing.

 

Originally posted by superthrawn

So, when you're judged, you can't say you didn't know, or that no one ever said anything.

 

Actually, yes he can. There are going to people who simply will not believe in God, either because they have no explicit knowledge of him, or because circumstances in their lives have made it impossible for them to do so (being strictly raised in another [or no] religion, for example). Are these people doomed? If you think so, I think you underestimate the infinite mercy and wisdom of our God. Remember, if a person does wrong without fully understanding it is wrong, his culpability is greatly reduced or reduced to zero. We're not expected to know everything, mearly to live the best lives we can given whatever our situations in life are and seek God in whatever ways we are able. I have no doubt we will see many non-Christians in heaven, who, through no fault of their own, did not believe in God on earth (or believed wrong things about him).

[MadPilot]

We've revised almost all our observations about the way things work so many times it's begining to look like a First Grader wrote them, there are so many eraser marks.

 

Would you prefer that we didn't correct ourselves? That's how we learn. If we didn't dismiss theories that have been proven wrong, science would be useless. Just because religion refuses to change its theories, it doesn't mean that science should.

 

What I am worried about though, is the fact that I won't be able to run the world to keep things in order. Stupid people who've gone through stupid Public Schools are going to have a hand in things, and this downward spiral will continue.

 

What you fail to realise is that some of these "stupid" people simply do not wish to learn. You can't expect everyone to be intelligent. Even if you could run the world, it doesn't mean that people would meet your ever so high standards.

 

My final question. To the Atheists: Why do you follow rules? Why do you have morals? What exactly do you hope for by following any sort of moral code?

 

Why do religious people follow the rules? Why do religious people have morals? Is it because God told you to? No. Everyone, religious or not, has morals so that everyone can try to live a happy life. Conflicts happen because different people have different morals and want to preserve their way of life over others. This pledge of allegiance is part of your way of life and you want to defend it. Maybe it is a bit excessive to ban it from schools altogether, but one of those "stupid" people has made a decision, using their morals, that some people don't agree with. Too bad, it happens. Live with it.

[Rebel Loyaltist]

Man I have so much **** to say to superthrawn I can't wait till I post it. I'll probably do it friday or saturday

[Zargon]

Originally posted by Assassin

 

Jeez...talk about arrogance

Me? Prick or ******* I could understand, but I don;t recall being arrogant.....

 

I don;t get how those accurate counterpoints are arrogance, I was a bit harsh with answers to his stupid bull**** about those eastern religions being jokes then daming us all to hell like the guy that killed daniel pearl, got sentenced to death, who then tells everyone it was unjust and that allah will kill us all and then called for a jihad......(note:I've had some rum, the grammar starts to die away, so sue me)

 

Zargon I think you mean David..Solomon's father

 

That's what I said......

 

 

And as for Solomon..."The Bible gives us the reasons for the king's downfall. He loved many strange women and he allowed them to continue their own forms of worship, defiling the Holy City with their foreign rituals and gods. And the aging Solomon not only tolerated this paganism but also indulged in it himself."

\

 

exactly my point........

[edlib]

I think Assassin was referring to Superthrawn with that.

The "I'm with Stupid" smiley usually signifies agreement with the previous poster.

He then went on to take apart several of Supe's arguments, so I don't think it was intended for you.

 

But I could be mistaken...

[Tierce]

edlib is right...thanx for clearing that up by the way...and damn zarg relax...i apologize for not directing my post more clearly

[edlib]

No prob.

After all, we have to present a unified front, don't we?

 

Darn,.. this thread is just starting to get interesting and now I have to go to California for 2 weeks for work, with no guarantee of internet access.

I'll check in if I get a chance, but I didn't last time so I don't expect I will this time around.

 

Anyway, keep it real, boys.

C'ya when I gets back.

[Jem]

Originally posted by Keyan Farlander

You see? You freely admit that you don't know. Unless you have complete and total knowledge of the universe, you can never be certain that there is no God. And if you DID, then YOU would be God (that's a bit philosophical and little vague, but I think you get the idea).

 

Proving something DOESN'T exist is quite hard - especially something like this. And that's why it is impossible to hold to formal, dogmatic atheism. You "believe" in something you cannot possibly justify. On the other hand, I CAN justify my belief in God, because I have personally observed his effect on the world, and so have others, even to a far greater extent than I (the non-Christian witnesses at Fatima, for example). Not to mention the numerous proofs of God's existence that you must have studied in philosophy class...

 

Well of course I admit I don't know, I would be lying if I didn't and this also goes for everyone, at the time being

 

And yes I do get the philosophical idea and here's another one for you: you claim that because I am certain there is no god I am to be a god but knowing that I do not believe in the concept of god can I really be one? This is like truly believing in something I do not which is contradiction itself.

You say "you can never be certain there is no god" but "you can never be certain there is a god" can also be said...

 

Believing in god or not does not depend on certitude but on faith, you don't need proof to justify any of these beliefs. Asking for a proof in god's inexistance is as absurde as asking proof for his existance. These are things that cannot not truly be prooved. You're faith and belief on what you think is more important than proof. It's a bit like "the chicken and the egg" problem, which one came first...if you know what I mean.

 

It's what I've been saying: I just don't believe in god and that's it.

 

 

Originally posted by Keyan Farlander

At any rate, I sense you are more of a philosophically lazy agnostic than a true atheist.

 

Lazy is my middle name, baby!

 

 

Originally posted by Keyan Farlander

It seems to be more a lack of interest for you. I suspect this will change as you grow older.

 

OK Doctor Keyan... So how much do I owe you for this session?

 

 

Rebel Loyalist posted

Man I have so much **** to say to superthrawn

 

Don't we all?

[Commander 598]

The egg came first!!!

[Keyan Farlander]

Originally posted by Jem

And yes I do get the philosophical idea and here's another one for you: you claim that because I am certain there is no god I am to be a god but knowing that I do not believe in the concept of god can I really be one? This is like truly believing in something I do not which is contradiction itself.

 

I don't think you quite followed that. What I was saying was that if you knew everything (the only way to know for certain there is no God), then you would BE God, because you know everything.

 

You say "you can never be certain there is no god" but "you can never be certain there is a god" can also be said...

 

No, actually it can't. You can know God exists for certain using nothing but your own intellect. See the writings of St. Thomas Aquinas for more information (who you should have read about in philosophy class!). Even if you reject that, you can still know God exists from observing his effect on the world. The great miracles of the world are only the most visible example of this. I mentioned Fatima already, and the great Eucheristic miracles are some other excellent examples. When a host bleeds, and you do not believe, nothing can reach you.

 

Believing in god or not does not depend on certitude but on faith, you don't need proof to justify any of these beliefs. Asking for a proof in god's inexistance is as absurde as asking proof for his existance. These are things that cannot not truly be prooved. You're faith and belief on what you think is more important than proof. It's a bit like "the chicken and the egg" problem, which one came first...if you know what I mean.

 

No, that's wrong. Anyone who believes in God from "faith" is a fool - every bit as foolish as one who does not believe in him for the same reason. You must believe in God because it is the only intellectually honest position on the matter. You must know it in your mind, not just your heart. Faith comes later. Faith is a gift from God. Faith helps us overcome the doubts we have that come from the fact that we are only human and even faced with the certainty of God's existence, do not fully trust him. "Lord, I believe; help thou my unbelief."

 

It's what I've been saying: I just don't believe in god and that's it.

 

And like I have been saying - there is no way to justify that belief. It seems completely arbitrary on your part, anyway. If you are confident enough in that totally unsupportable belief to go on with your life never giving it a second thought, then I question your sanity. Of course, this IS XWA.net net, and as you well know, your sanity must be checked at the door...

 

Lazy is my middle name, baby!

 

You sound like a few other of our members around here...

 

OK Doctor Keyan... So how much do I owe you for this session?

 

When you get my bill, you really ARE going to need a doctor

[Zargon]

Originally posted by Assassin

edlib is right...thanx for clearing that up by the way...and damn zarg relax...i apologize for not directing my post more clearly

 

 

ooooooh, i wasn't trying to be harsh or pissy, apparantly I am coming off more and more confrontational...sorry assasin, I was really just asking for you to clairfy

[MadPilot]

Originally posted by Keyan Farlander

 

And like I have been saying - there is no way to justify that belief. It seems completely arbitrary on your part, anyway. If you are confident enough in that totally unsupportable belief to go on with your life never giving it a second thought, then I question your sanity.

 

What do you mean by totally unsupportable? If many people share the same view, the belief is supported. Or do you mean actual evidence of the existence / non-existence of God? In which case there is no evidence. Nothing but opinion and belief.

 

How do you justify your beliefs? You mention miracles and writings, but what is it that actually makes you believe in the existence of God. It's one of those things I've never been able to work out.