Kick & Blue Uppercut Over powered? solution

[Jah Warrior]

As many of you guys have, I looked forward to 1.04 with great anticipation. I wrongly assumed that raven would actually listen to some of the suggestions being made in these forums.

 

Kick is WAAAY too powerful, as is the Blue Uppercut/Lunge. Ive noticed on the no force duel servers there is now a tendency for peole to just crouch at all times and go for the uppercut.

 

Some how i got 1 hit killed from a blue lunge the otherday, this shouldnt be possible.

 

All is not lost, I put the DUEL-SE mod back in my servers base folder and found that it works with 1.04 as well.

 

If you do not know what Duel SE is its a mod that allows you to tweak the amount of damage that each swing or attack does.

 

We now run our server with only 1 hp damage for a kick and only a 1 in 10 chance of a knock down from a kick. We also set the blue uppercut to do the same damage as a normal blue swing. Basicly this gives less incentive to crouch at all times and to spam kicks.

 

All our regulars, there are at least 30+ of them love this mod as it makes the games even and when you have a couple of good players the matches can last some time, which is always a pleasure to see.

 

This may not be ideal for everyone but for no force duels especially i can not recommend this mod enough. Even if only to allow Jump level 3 with out the lamer aspect. It opens the maps up a whole heap.

 

Anyways if this info can help anyone who has been thinking the same things as we have - cool.

[crazyplaya73]

I use duel_se on my servers too. Its great.

[FatalStrike]

Originally posted by Jah Warrior

As many of you guys have, I looked forward to 1.04 with great anticipation. I wrongly assumed that raven would actually listen to some of the suggestions being made in these forums.

 

Kick is WAAAY too powerful, as is the Blue Uppercut/Lunge. Ive noticed on the no force duel servers there is now a tendency for peole to just crouch at all times and go for the uppercut.

 

Some how i got 1 hit killed from a blue lunge the otherday, this shouldnt be possible.

 

All is not lost, I put the DUEL-SE mod back in my servers base folder and found that it works with 1.04 as well.

 

If you do not know what Duel SE is its a mod that allows you to tweak the amount of damage that each swing or attack does.

 

We now run our server with only 1 hp damage for a kick and only a 1 in 10 chance of a knock down from a kick. We also set the blue uppercut to do the same damage as a normal blue swing. Basicly this gives less incentive to crouch at all times and to spam kicks.

 

All our regulars, there are at least 30+ of them love this mod as it makes the games even and when you have a couple of good players the matches can last some time, which is always a pleasure to see.

 

This may not be ideal for everyone but for no force duels especially i can not recommend this mod enough. Even if only to allow Jump level 3 with out the lamer aspect. It opens the maps up a whole heap.

 

Anyways if this info can help anyone who has been thinking the same things as we have - cool.

 

Please stop trying to get patches to remove "special moves" and lower damage.

 

The game as is has less options then it should for saber battles, and judging by the changes you made (i.e. nerfed the blue lunge) I see that you would like even less.

 

Thank you for reccomending that mod but next time please do not gripe at raven for leaving us a little freedom in the game. I don't think the majority of people want the game to be reduced to everyone doing regular saber swings, which is what you in effect are trying to do.

[Arceri]

Kick is overpowered, yes. Because it is the only move that cannot be blocked (it can be avoided yes, by tap dancing like Sammy Davis Jr.). I've always felt kick should do minium damage, mb at most 5 front, 8 side. Probably should be less than that. Because some people can.. and do.. fight only throwing and kicking. Throw when you attack... kick when you rush.

 

As for lunge... there's no problem with that. And it's not possible on regular damage servers to kill someone in one hit from it. Heh and if you can't deal with someone crouching all the time trying to lunge. I feel for you. But, lunge has never been a problem against me, infact it's usually easier to kill a lunger than someone who mixes up their attacks.... not usually, it always is.

 

Change your fighting style if lunge always kills you, cuz you're not doing something right.

[RpTheHotrod]

So..to "fix" kick...you want to remove it. 1 damage and a 10% chance to knock down is worthless.

 

Also...blue lunge isnt over-pwoered. I did several tests. I tried the blue lunge on an afk...point blank range, right on. It took every time, 5 blue lunges to kill them.

 

 

It ain't overpowered....it's just you have very low health when you're hit.

[Dephier]

1 point of damage for a kick? how would you take a kick to the face with no agony at all? it should be at least 5 or 10.

[crazyplaya73]

You guys are right about Jah's settings being off. I don't understand why people want to keep taking away. But DUEL_SE is a great MOD. It increases saber strength and lets you make many customizations. And it lets you give back some power to back sweep so that it is a viable move once again.

 

On my server I have cut saber throw and kick damage in half and increased the chance of a kick knock down. And I have made all of the stances stronger, I have made blue lunge and medium finisher just a little stronger. I have also made all of the backsweeps stronger then what 104 has by default.

 

This has increased the veriety and fun factor. All the stances and all of the special moves have their place and are effective. Kick and throw are still effective too but more as a defensive counter then as a primary attack the way it should be.

 

Anyway DUEL_SE I think is about adding to the game and making the focus on saber skill not about taking away.

[ToppDog]

Originally posted by Jah Warrior

As many of you guys have, I looked forward to 1.04 with great anticipation. I wrongly assumed that raven would actually listen to some of the suggestions being made in these forums.

 

Kick is WAAAY too powerful, as is the Blue Uppercut/Lunge. Ive noticed on the no force duel servers there is now a tendency for peole to just crouch at all times and go for the uppercut.

 

Some how i got 1 hit killed from a blue lunge the otherday, this shouldnt be possible.

 

All is not lost, I put the DUEL-SE mod back in my servers base folder and found that it works with 1.04 as well.

 

If you do not know what Duel SE is its a mod that allows you to tweak the amount of damage that each swing or attack does.

 

We now run our server with only 1 hp damage for a kick and only a 1 in 10 chance of a knock down from a kick. We also set the blue uppercut to do the same damage as a normal blue swing. Basicly this gives less incentive to crouch at all times and to spam kicks.

 

All our regulars, there are at least 30+ of them love this mod as it makes the games even and when you have a couple of good players the matches can last some time, which is always a pleasure to see.

 

This may not be ideal for everyone but for no force duels especially i can not recommend this mod enough. Even if only to allow Jump level 3 with out the lamer aspect. It opens the maps up a whole heap.

 

Anyways if this info can help anyone who has been thinking the same things as we have - cool.

 

Hello? Using the same inept logic you should have also nerfed the Yellow & Red DFA's so that they also only have the damage of normal swings! Jesus man, the lunge is the special move for light stance! It's still less powerful than the special moves of the other stances, as it should be. If the lunge was a one hit kill, then you had to have been on a server where saberdamage was at a higher setting. The new patch has pretty good balance for all moves & normal swings for all stances.

 

I'm pretty sure people are leaving your server in droves once they realize you've unbalanced certain moves.

[Homosexual Ewok]

Takes about 5 kicks to kill a person last time I checked...

 

Blue lunge only lands if you walk directly straight into one since the pivot and air execution were both removed...

 

Come on guys, seriously, how hard is it to friggen "strafe left/right"?

[FatalStrike]

Ewok don't mention the power of strafe! They might nerf that too!!

[Psionic Jedi]

Originally posted by Dephier

1 point of damage for a kick? how would you take a kick to the face with no agony at all? it should be at least 5 or 10.

 

Why does an idle saber that can melt walls ((TPM Negotiation scene) do only 1pt of damage per second on someone's body? lol.

 

---

Lungers are easy to avoid, and while they are still recovering from post-lunge animation you can strike at their unprotected rearside.

 

Or you can sink to their level and approach him with blue stance, crouched. Whoever strikes first wins.

[Hiteche5]

Lungers are easy to avoid and if the server is running regular saber damage then the lunge don't hurt to much. I think it's a great move because it goes through alot of defenses.

 

Kick is also a great one. I think we should leave this one alone as well.

 

Both moves have risks especially on high saber damge servers. I love the lungers that just stay crouched trying to execute it. Over the top in medium really looks nice on a lunger. Plus when the are crouched your kick can usually get through before the lunge does.

 

BTW, DUEL_SE is it a server side mod? Can someone fill me in on this one please?

[icefox98]

THANK YOU, Fatalstrike for posting on here.

 

My thoughts exactly.

 

Jah Warrior, enough is enough. The complaining about moves being suprising and doing damage are starting to wear on my nerves. Please, stop. Everyone already complained about backstab, heavy swing, dfa, etc....

 

If you read some of my more tounge in cheek thread/messages, you will see I predicted someone starting to post kick and lunge are overpowered moves. (Well, I didn't call kick, but I called lunge.) And, like I said, stop it. People like YOU ruin this game. Just because you don't have too much skill when playing online, and can't find a way to evade/counter these moves, you come onto this forum and complain instead of practicing. Here is some advice to EVERYONE who complains about special moves, and such.

 

THEY AREN'T GOD LIKE MOVES. YOU CAN DO THEM, TOO. THEY ARE EASILY COUNTERABLE/EVADABLE. GO PLAY JEDI KNIGHT II AND PRACTICE INSTEAD OF BITCHING ABOUT IT HERE.

 

Sorry for the caps, but that point needs to go across.

 

-Rosco

 

P.S. Like I said before, this game doesn't need to be turned into an NES game. What exactly would you like, and think would be a perfect game, Jah? Light swing, a blue lightsaber, and A rebel trooper model? I know you are a bitcher, but stop it before Raven turns JK II into Pong.

[Hiteche5]

Well Icefox there is no need to flame. FatalStrike does not have to yell to get his point across. Refer back to the slipper slope thread. Instead of telling people just to practice you might find it helpful to give some suggestions on how to counter the move right here.

 

This way when people know the counters they won't asked for it to be removed and nobody spams one move and we all have a better experience from it.

 

This "teaching" also puts everybody on the same page and when we ask Raven for stuff people will want more moves instead of taking moves out.

[icefox98]

So easy to dismiss something as "flame."

 

Frankly, I'm just tired and fed up with what Jah posted. I've seen too much of it.

 

I think the nature of Jah's post is a lot worse than my "flame."

 

Oh, and if you need someone to "teach" you how to evade kick and lunge, you don't deserve knowing I guess.

 

I'm sure everyone can figure out themselves quite easily with a little thought how to counter those moves.

 

Okay, I'll be a nice guy. I'll tell you how to counter Lunge. Here goes.....Now get your number 2 pencils sharpened, and notebooks out.

 

Strafe.

 

-Rosco

[Hiteche5]

So easy to dismiss something as "flame."

 

I never dismissed your post. If you read my post above you see that I agree with you.

 

Frankly, I'm just tired and fed up with what Jah posted. I've seen too much of it.

 

And some people may also feel your posts about the game being nerfed too much is just as annoying. You may also come off as a "whiner if you just yell about other people. So try to find a happy medium. Sometimes diplomacy is more disarming then arguement.

 

Okay, I'll be a nice guy. I'll tell you how to counter Lunge. Here goes.....Now get your number 2 pencils sharpened, and notebooks out.

 

Strafe is not the only answer. You can strafe all day and that does not stop the guy from lunging. Give more of an option to counterattack and that may make a difference. I suggested a move that counter attacks the lunge and puts the guy on the defensive if not killing him outright. Telling people to get out of the way does not promote gameplay instead you are sending a message that the move is "uber" and you just have to get out of the way so then people naturally want to petion to have it removed. Catch my flow?

 

I am in no way attacking you just suggesting that the time spent on the forum could be better used to help enhance gameplay rather than this point and counter point stuff.

[Caster]

5 kicks sounds about right. Last time I checked, each kick does out 20 physical damge, no shield damage.

 

So on a regular person with 100 health, it'll take 20 successful kicks to kill him/her.

 

I like how sometimes the kick does no damage though, I'm not sure how that words, I think it has to do with saber stance and whether or not a person is in the middle of an action.

 

I haven't found blue lunge to be much of a problem, it does roughly between 70 and 90 damage when it hits successfully, and since I'm quite a shield monger.

 

Whenever I see some one just crouching with light stance. I just launch a DFA in their direction. They're measly lunge is a mere scratch compared to the light saber splitting apart their skull.

[Solo4114]

Jah,

 

I have to disagree with the problems with kick and lunge. I have yet to play on a server since upgrading to 1.04 (I'm stuck on a 56K), but I've never had a lot of trouble with kickers or lungers. Now, while I did not think it well balanced to have the backstab be a lethal blow, and while I can see why kick could be a problem (potentially) I think that servers should try using a tweaking mod to lower kick damage to, say 8 points, rather than the full 15, and leave the knockdown rate about the same. The lunge, on the other hand, is pretty well balanced all things considered. It is non-pivoting, and therefore leaves the opponent vulnerable if he misses. It also doesn't deal out one-hit-kill damage, unless you're playing on a server with damagescale set around 5 or more, where ALL hits are one hit-kills. Regardless, I can see how it'd be annoying to deal with people who spam any move that has a higher chance of breaking through defenses (like these two moves).

 

I'll offer my own suggestions as to how to beat those tactics.

 

Anti-kick tactics:

 

1.) If you see a guy rushing at you, push his ass to the ground. If he jumps (a lot of people had trouble mastering the new kick style, so you may see a guy jump towards you before trying the second half) at you, either take a sabre swing at him, or jump yourself, then push.

 

2.) Roll, fatass, roll!! (variation of "Fly, fatass, fly!!" -- ten bonus points to the first person who correctly identifies the reference) Remember, you can roll to the SIDE as well. Just hit and hold strafe, then duck. Alternatively, roll AT the guy. Don't know if they can still do a kick over you, but a lot of people may end up accidentally jumping over you. At that point, either do a backstab, or just turn around and slash him. Or turn and push him. Whatever you like.

 

3.) Kick his ass, Seabass! Seriously, kick the guy back if he's charging you.

 

4.) If you're using darkside powers, try hitting him with some damaging force powers (grip, lightning). I haven't tried this, but a grip may immobilize him.

 

5.) Remember, even if you are kicked to the ground, YOU CAN NOW PUSH FROM THE GROUND. This gives you a split second to get back up.

 

6.) Also, remember that what buttons you press affect HOW you get back up. If you hit attack, you can do that flipping move where you kind of corkscrew in the air and extend your sabre below you. You can also get up and deliver a quick kick to your opponent, or flip backwards, etc. Once kicked to the ground, you are NOT as vulnerable as you used to be.

 

7.) Doesn't protection negate kick damage?

 

Anti-Lunge tactics (or: How to turn Lungers into Lunch)

 

1.) Again, ROLL. You can easily evade this move. ESPECIALLY if you see guys crouching and waiting. If you see someone trying to immitate a hobbit, just roll diagonally past him and wail on him.

 

2.) Flip over the guy and backstab or turn and attack.

 

3.) Maybe try the yellow finisher.

 

4.) Maybe try the red DFA.

 

5.) If you're darkside, use standoff attacks (grip and lightning, again).

 

6.) Wait for him to come close to you and keep rolling away. Out-wait the guy. Remember, psychology is how you win the battle. If the other guy wants to sit on his ass all day, or creep towards you and try to stay crouched the whole time, just keep backing up and letting him come to you. This may bore you, but eventually, he'll let his guard down or get tired of waiting and attack you. You can also lower your sabre, taunt the guy, turn on the AFK icon (while waiting for him to make a move), etc. Psych him out, get inside his head and figure out what his strategy is. I guarantee you, that anyone who uses one single move over and over and over is looking for a quick and easy kill. Consequently, their psychology is NOT adapted well to waiting (otherwise, they'd be getting in there and using regular sabre attacks). If you can out-wait them, they will get tired, bored, etc. and make a mistake. That's when you kill them.

 

 

 

Ok, this last bit is just a bit of general martial arts strategy that you may be able to apply to this game (or may not. I haven't tried it). Consider the following.

 

1.) Lightsabre combat, which is heavily based off of kendo, is primarily about controlling the center line. The shape of the weapon itself essentially dictates this style. This has been translated to the computer realm by meaning that almost all of your attacks are going to come from and be delivered from a straight line, preferably head-on.

 

2.) As a result of the above, chances are, when an opponent is facing towards you, that is the direction the attack will come from. THis is, of course, blatantly obvious to anyone who watches about, oh, three seconds worth of play, even if they're just a button masher. Where you're looking is where the attack will be aimed.

 

3.) Keeping that in mind, if you present the enemy with a straight line of attack from himself to you, you let him keep using the style of fighting that he's cmofortable with.

 

4.) Thus, to disorient, confuse, and confound the enemy, DO NOT MOVE IN A STRAIGHT LINE. Constantly roll from side to side, run in circles around him, jump, flip, etc. Whatever you can do, do not present an easy target. Learn the art of the strafing roll, or learn to angle yourself and roll past the enemy. I once dueled with a guy who kept yelling at me that I was running away from him, when I kept rolling TOWARDS him, but on a slight angle, such that I was ending up to the side and rear of him.

 

5.) When you've positioned yourself where your enemy is NOT aiming, attack him. Or use your force powers on him. Keep in mind that the red stance strafing swings are both powerful, harder to block, and have a long reach. If you roll past a guy, turn, and execute a strafing red attack, he will be a-hurtin'.

 

Just a few thoughts. Post your own ideas and suggestions! The more tactics and strategies are out there, the easier it is to defeat lame tactics like move-spamming.

[crazyplaya73]

Lets try not to flame. I know that people are frustrated but its up to the people running the servers to "save" the game. I'm sure that Jah has good intentions by what he is doing but the real problem is that the changes are too radical. If a player comes into the server and doesn't know what you have done it is not fair to that player. So he may use kick as a major part of his arsinal and if he doesn't know about what you've changed then he doesn't have the chance to adjust his strategy accordingly.

 

Why did you lower it so much just so that we can understand. I think that a good compromise would be to cut the damage in half that kick does but to increase the percentage of knockdown's. Players should know how up to get up quick or to push away. If not then they diserve tio die.

 

This way it puts the focus on using kick as a defensive counter. Like if someone tries to backstab or light lunge you kick them down and chop then in half with a heavy swing. I like the possiblity of knock downs. It makes it more challenging.

[crazyplaya73]

Yea yellow dfa is the best couter for blue lunge. Its instant death. They'll be more carefull about when they use lunge after that if they have half a brain. Blue lunge is only deadly if you just stand there still thoughout the entire animation.

[icefox98]

Hiteche....

 

That strafe comment, it was sarcasm. But, the sad thing is, all I need is strafe to evade lunges =(. My friend was spamming lunge in duel (I asked him to) and lo and behold strafe saved me everytime. Go on, let people think I'm complaining about complainers, I think that was the point you were trying to get across? Hm, and I thought maybe that the reciever(s) of my advice could fill in the blanks AFTER THEY STRAFE OUT OF THE WAY. You know, like swing your saber?

 

I still don't understand how you missed the red flags going up showing the obvious sarcasm...the number 2 pencils and notebook? Maybe you missed that. Or perhaps the one word answer....Well, maybe re-read your quotes of me, there you will find the answers.

 

On sheer numbers alone my posts about patches nerfing everything are mind-boggling, you got me there. A grand total of 2.

 

And yes, people complaining about overpowered moves, force powers, etc are very small in number indeed. I'd say theres only about Ten billion give or take a couple hundred million about that subject.

 

Catch MY flow?

[Hiteche5]

On sheer numbers alone my posts about patches nerfing everything are mind-boggling, you got me there. A grand total of 2.

 

Did I say that you were always complaining? I even stated at the bottom of the post that I was not trying to attack you.

 

I also understand sarcasm but I also addressed that just telling people to get out of the way and thinking of a counterattack may also be a helpful suggestion.

 

On sheer numbers alone my posts about patches nerfing everything are mind-boggling, you got me there. A grand total of 2.

 

Did I say anything about your number of posts on the subject?

 

And yes, people complaining about overpowered moves, force powers, etc are very small in number indeed. I'd say theres only about Ten billion give or take a couple hundred million about that subject.

 

Where did this comment come from? You must assume that I made some allusion to the fact that not alot of people are complaining. On the contrary, many people are complaining about it. So what are you trying to tell me here?

 

Again I am not trying to start anything with you. I just think there are other ways to approach a subject. You must think I'm trying to get you or something. As I have said many times before I agree with you.

 

Sigh. Ignorance is bliss

 

I certainly hope that was not aimed at me. Because that was an attack not called for. That is flaming.

[FatalStrike]

Ice fox that strafe comment was classic! hahahahaha!

 

I think if people actually practiced moving left right more often most of these "super-moves" would not have to be nerfed.

 

I don't think Icefox is trying to flame everyone but he is getting frustrated with this idea of nerfing everything. At least Icefox has not quit the game all together like many other have.

 

Thanks Hiteche5 for trying to keep these things civil. I appreciate when people like you post their comments.

 

By the way guys it sounds like this Solo4114 guy knows his $h!t! Nice post man.

 

(I am getting too nice, must.....have....alcohol)

[TheMadZealot]

Back in the old days we used to kill people that tried to kick us, I guess this is no longer an option with nerfed sabres lol

[Darth Kaan]

I use medium and strong stance, so taking away the lunge from light just makes it that much easier to kill a blue stance user. However, if you take the lunge away, why would anyone even play that stance now?

 

I also don't understand why so many people are complaining about kicks...