do you think the US should get out of Israel

[Nebelwerfer_]

im pretty sure i'm not the first guy to opt this post but this question is driving me mad. I'm not a jew or a muslim but with all these problems it's causing, I need some outside oppinions to help me look at it clearly

 

Here are some reasons why the US SHOULD help out Israel

 

1)They are a democracy

2)there are lots of jewish voters in america who see it fit to help them out

3)several christians believe god will bless them if they help out israel

 

Here are some reasons why I DONT think US should help out Israel:

 

1) The israelis can be just as brutal as the muslim terrorists

2) helping the israelis will hurt our relation with several muslim nations whom we get a critical amount of our oil from.

3)ancient biblical prophecies are not a reason to start the zionist movement and take over a country

 

 

I need some oppinions please.

[CenturiOn]

id like peace

 

put peace seems impossible with muslims

USA should invade palestine and dismantel the terrorist groups

but theres loads of risks an intervention could explode into WW3

 

but if we wait,there will be more and more deaths and either israel or palestine will begin a REAL war.

well God HATES patriotism and usa is VERY patriotic (god save america)

 

ahah every man is EQUAL to God

no matter were he is from

[Revan Bakr']

I think that this question should be in the swamp. But, before it's moved, I have to say that the question is moot. There will never be peace in Israel until the Tribulation!

[Revan Bakr']

And even then after three and one half years the Antichrist will break the treaty with Israel and hell breaks loose.

[CenturiOn]

no i the antichrist will come after WW3

he seem evil

he will bring peace,unity,he will abolish money

but u willhave to pray satan to get the chip in your forehead or right arm(the number of the beast=chip)in order to be CONFORM with this new society.anyone who prays the devil and takes the chip WILL go to hell because theive followed satan.christians will be persecuted,but if u die in the name of our lord you soul will be saved

 

this is reality

 

at the end,good things will seem evil,and evil things will seem good(abortion,murder,sex,hatred)

[Revan Bakr']

my point exactly- I just didn't elaborate.

[TheWhiteRaider]

Sometime in the future the U.S. will. I had hope it wouldn't, but doesn't seem that way. Every thing will fall someday Rome lasted 1000 year before it was gone. I mean even the U.S. will fall, but it won't be as fast the way we have our Goverment.

Someday our Goverment will fail too. Oh well that's life.

 

One thing we learn from history is that we don't learn from history.

[Bluezman]

Some Admin please move this to Yoda's swamp...

But I think this is too much off topic to even stay there...

[FatalStrike]

interesting topic that will be moved shortly.

 

Anyway sounds like some people have been reading either the "Left Behind" series, or they have been scanning the Bible for the scarey parts.

 

As for peace in the Middle East -

 

The US will help Isreal for many more reasons then you listed here are two major points.

 

1- Isreal is a strategic point that US is not willing to lose

 

2- Isreal has intellegence on terrorists we need

 

Also a WW3 breaking out here is not possible since the only way the Middle East can strike the US is with terrorism. They have no military equipment capable of striking the US.

 

Thats my 2 cents

 

thanks for reading

[Nebelwerfer_]

nobody's really answering my first questions, and sorry for putting this thread in the wrong forum, only one of you guys needs to post to the admin to move it.

[aguelman]

Just to answer some of Nebelwerfer questions:

 

- Why it's ok for us to attack Afghanistan, but it's not ok for Israel to attack terrorists (then they're called BRUTAL...)

 

- If biblical prophecies or ancient history is not a good start for a nation, then most countries in the world are in deep s*** !!!

[Reb Starblazer]

The Us should pull out. Maybe not right now, but soon. As horrible as this sounds, let them fight. Let them kill each other. But before you judge what I'm saying, let me finish. They need this. There has never been a catastrophe in the Middle east like WWI and II, Vietnam, and countless others that the west has been involved in. In order for them to stop fighting, they'll need a reason to stop fighting, which they haven't been given yet. Once they start seeing what they're doing to each other, themselves and their world around them, they'll finally understand why peace is needed. I just hope they don't realize it too late... I'm not saying "Oh, go over and kill them all", or "let them all kill each other", I'm saying they need to learn the value of human life, as their society is much different than ours. Honour and revenge are as much a part of their system as laws and jails are ours. They have such drastically different concepts than we do, and while I don't want them to change them, I think they may need to "adapt" them a little.

 

One of the reasons that the terrosist attacks were made on the U.S. is because the U.S. was "interfering"(for lack of a better word) over in the Middle East. They wanted the U.S. out of there, and that's how they approached it. And now look, it's made it worse. Every since U.S. declared war on Terrorism, Isreal has been using this as an excuse to fight off their own "Terrorists".

Peace can't come without sacrifice, and sacrifice won't come without the will to fight for peace. They'll only start to work together once they realize that they don't want to fight anymore, that it's not worth it. Right now, they don't even remember what they're fighting for. All they know is fighting, in retailiation for fighting. Until someone finally steps up and asks "Why?", they'll keep doing that. And the U.S. can't be the one to do that, they have to do that for themselves. Then, and only then, will there be peace in the Middle East.

/Rant off

 

Thank you for your time.

[Breton]

I think that Sharon and Arafat should settle this matter for themselves, like in a boxing game between them, or perhaps a football(soccer) game between the leaders of Israel and the leaders of Palestina. Or perhaps a jk2 duel. So that thousands of innocents won't be killed because of some old mens stupid debate.

[JandoFett1842]

Reasons to stay in Isriel

 

1) The Arab Terrorest are Ass Holes

2) 9-11

3) An Arab Taxi Driver hit me in Tony Halk 2

4) Democracy

5) Keep Peace

 

Reasons to get out of Isriel

 

1) In the Bible, it says that there will never be peace in the Middle East, So just let them kill each other

2) Oil

3) Hell, are there any other good resons to get out of the middle east?

[Breton]

The problem is that US support the war in the area, not the peace.Why can't they just let UN handle this matter?

[obi]

I am a bible man myself and I agree with the previous comments about the antichrist and no peace untill the tribulation.

 

However, I got the crap flamed uot of me when I said it.......

 

 

I say get the terrorists and get out. Try not to stay too long, and it'll be ok. Avoid the civilian casualties, also.

 

Well, here is something I dont understand:

 

We have holy wars all the time, yet all of the "gods" of different religions are in favor of peace, yet people kill in the name of their "god".

 

Kinda ironic, isn't it?

[Camus]

Originally posted by JM Qui-Gon Jinn

The problem is that US support the war in the area, not the peace.Why can't they just let UN handle this matter?

 

 

AS said before the US gets a critical amout of oil from that area... If the US doesnt stop someone dictator can come in near the end wipe everyone out and take over 100% controll over it and how do you say strangle the US in an economic war...

[NerfYoda]

Oh boy.

 

1) Sharon and Arafat both need to be taken out of power. Sharon has done absolutely zilch for any kind of peace to happen, as has Arafat. The problem is the folks who replace them are likely to be even more radical.

 

2) Aside from ties to the Jewish community & the oil thing the US needs to stay in the Arab world so they can go after Saddam & Iraq. Our relationships with Saudi Arabia and Israel make for possible staging points. Is this the right thing to do? Personally I dont think so. It's on Dubya's to do list though.

 

3) The US can keep ties with Israel if they push VERY hard for the creation of a UN endorsed Palestinian state. It's not the US's job to take sited. If we're going to be the world's policeman then we need to start settling these disputes a little better.

 

4) This one is my personal opinion here.. Both Israel and Palestine are acting irresponsibly. Religious destiny is hardly a basis for stable government. I think the UN should come in and forcibly create a DMZ in between the 2 sides and embargo the lot of them Iraq style. Disarm both sides. Feh. I dont know what they should do. I also at times thienk we should just pull out & let them sort it out themselves.

 

5) Screw Israel & Zionism, Screw Palestine & archaic notions of martyrship. That's my official stance. Its getting to the point where I dont really care anymore.

[aguelman]

I agree with you Reb Starblazer, but only in parts...

 

You talk about WWI, WWII and Vietnam, but people are at war at the Middle East for like 3.000 years, so you can't talk about discovering what peace is all about...at least the KNOW why they are fighting for !!!

 

And you can't even start talking about the "violent Israeli people" when ALL the wars in the region were started by the ARABS !!!

[Breton]

Exept from the Iraq part (I think attacking Iraq is something that should not be done), I agree with NerfYoda, both part have responsebility that it has come to war in this region. That is why US should not take part in this case.

 

UN understands it, Terje Røed Larsen understands it, even the pope understands it, but Bush obviously don't.

[Camus]

Originally posted by JM Qui-Gon Jinn

Exept from the Iraq part (I think attacking Iraq is something that should not be done), I agree with NerfYoda, both part have responsebility that it has come to war in this region. That is why US should not take part in this case.

 

UN understands it, Terje Røed Larsen understands it, even the pope understands it, but Bush obviously don't.

 

 

 

Im sorry but Bush and the US is protecting our intrest... Right now there are a lot of US familys in the middle east working with global oil compenies...

[Breton]

Protecting our interest?

 

He is killing innocents, and you bother about oil?

[Reb Starblazer]

Yes, that's part of the problem too. The U.S.(and pretty much everywhere else in the western world) depends on the middle east for oil, and because of that, they have an interest in the middle east. This is one of the reasons why the U.S. is very reluctant to pull out, because they are afraid of what might happen.

 

Yea, I agree with what you guys are saying about the religious issues(well, I do think you're going a bit far with it NerfYoda, but that's your own opinion and you're entitled to it. I mean #5) I don't know about all the bible prophecies but I do not believe that goverment should be based on religion. Religious beliefs have been the cause of many problems over the years, many a war and lots of deaths. And yea Obi, it is strange. Also, I recommend "Dogma" to anyone here. It's a great movie, and there's some very interesting religious ideas thrown into the mix there.

 

I think that a relationship with the middle east should be kept, but I don't think that the U.S. should be as large a player in that area as they are now. Being out of the middle of it, but still being part of it, is a possibility. I'm kinda with Nerfyoda on the whole "split them up or let them sort it out" as I've said in my post earlier, but obivously we just can't let them nuke each other.

 

As for anyone wondering why I feel so passionately about this, it's because I've been there. I lived the first half of my life in Lebanon, born in Beirut. My father decided to move to gve us a better life, away from the constant wars. I remember what it was like to see rubble of buildings everywhere, I remember what it was like to see people swearing revenge for the death of a loved one. And that's the problem. Until someone finally decides to put an end to it, to put aside the past and move on to the future, there will never be peace.

 

EDIT: To aguelman, yes I know how long they've been fighting, and that's part of the problem. They've been fighting so long they don't even know why they're fighting anymore. They just continue to fight, that's what I was saying in my first post. They're raised to hate the other one, to fight the other side, and that has to stop. The thing with the world wars and the like is because it was such a castrophic loss of life. Almost as many people died in those what, 10 years of war, as have died in the 3000 years of fighting in the middle east(while that's probably not exactly right, you at least get what I mean right). That's why we realized it. If it wasn't for the 60's and people standing up against war, we'd probably still be that way. That's what needs to happen in the East, regular people need to stand against the war, instead of raising their children to be a part in it, and have to stop longing for revenge. Revenge will only beget more revenge, and the circle will never end. That's why I'm saying someone has to finally stand up and ask "Why?"

[Breton]

The Palestinian kids learns to hate the Israels, the Israelian kids learns to hate the Palestinians. Much of the problem lies there.

[Arkum]

We shouldn't do anything with Israel, let them fight their stupid battle, they've been doing it for 50 yrs. and they haven't realized that it's not working. We have been trying for years to reach peace agreements with both sides, but do they listen? no. We just let them be and they will destroy each other, too bad.