Kurgan Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 KT? With a name change? Did I miss something? Anway, I won't argue that there aren't similarities between EF and JK2 (made by the same team after all). For example the Heavy Repeater and the Scavenger Gun (EF) have similar firing modes (machine gun primary, concussive mortar secondary) and both games have a "disintegrator" gun (though it works quite differently in both games). Many of the guns in JK2 don't match up perfectly with Q3, but they do match up fairly close with a myriad of other FPS games (Half Life, Serious Sam, Aliens Vs. Predator 2, Dark Forces series, Elite Force, etc). Some of the Force Powers in their current incarnations are similar in function to some of the Runes in Quake3 (holocron FFA comes to mind) but that still doesn't rule out the unique way they play out in the game. The gameplay of EliteForce is very different than JK2, any way you look at it, as is the gameplay of Quake3. Take away the Force and Saber and it still is. Deep down, it IS a "quake 3 mod" because it uses the same engine, but that doesn't mean the gameplay is the same, anymore than any other two FPS games. JK2 is first and foremost an FPS, and that means that innovation is still shall we say, not that great. All FPS games share certain things in common. Mindless killing for one, lots of guns for another, and etc. Deathmatch is the stable of multiplayer FPS games. I've never seen a satisfactory explanation of why you are fighting. Most games don't even bother. JK called it "Jedi Training" and UT and Q3 tried to portray it as a gladiator sport. Who cares? If you want a storyline, play single player, that's what its there for. Role playing mods get made, but until then, you have to settle for playing for points and skill. Realism always takes a back seat to gameplay (in in so-called "realistic" games... usually "more realism" ends up meaning less fun and more tedium in the gaming world), so that means people move faster than normal, they do physical tasks that would be impossible for a normal person, like getting shot and living, or getting healed from plasma burns with just a few seconds of medical treatment from a magical first aid kit, ammo lying around to give you limitless firing abilities and your guns never jam or need maintenance. You come magically back to life after dying, with a new body no less, etc. What sets JK2 apart from other shooters is primarily the lightsabers and force powers, both of which are part of the series, and part of the Star Wars feel. The thing to do would be to mistake the game for a Star Wars RPG. JK got criticism for this, and MotS, and now JK2. Everybody wants it to be a Jedi Simulator or a Movie Simulator. The best we can hope for in that regard is Star Wars Galaxies and/or Knights of the Old Republic (at least in terms of EU roleplaying). The essense of drama is conflict, and thus these games are pure conflict, and in a sense, pure drama. You can make up your own reasons why you're fighting, but the point is, you're pitted against your opponent in a battle of wits and reflexes. Nobody cares why the Knights and Kings and Queens are fighting in Chess, because people have understood that its a game, and its about strategies of one person vs. another, not pretending each character is real and trying to play out their emotions and motivations. For some, it seems the ideal Star Wars (note the "Wars" in there) game is an RPG. Personally, I'm more than happy with the various "unrealistic" and "incomplete" action scenarios we get with games like X-Wing Alliance and the Jedi Knight series. Popcorn games, for a saga of popcorn movies. ; ) I would have liked to see stuff like vehicles and maybe an experience system as options for Multiplayer as well as more AI interaction, but that's not something that FPSs are known for producing in multiplayer, but rather fast action competition between players and lots of explosions and gunplay. Maybe the mod community can help us out with some of this, but I wouldn't expect miracles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 Sorry for getting off track on a rant.. ; ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenegadeOfPhunk Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 Some games are totally abstract and have no basis in reality. Their just based around gameplay (e.g. PacMan) Some games are full on simulations. In fact, it's debatable whether these games should be called games at all. (e.g. Flight Simulator) MOST games fall somewhere inbetween. i.e. they try and strike a balance between realism and gameplay. I know of NO FPS which doesn't fall into this third catagory to some extent. i.e. you can't call it a simulation, and at the same time, you can't say it has no commonality with reality. Personally, most of my favourite games have been those that try and get the balance EVEN between these two extremes. i.e. they try and get the game as realistic as nessesary WITHOUT sacrificing gameplay. And - it's ESPECIALLY important if it's some kind of franchise. And even MORE important if it's a movie franchise. My opinion on the standard JKII gameplay is that it's WAY over-balanced away from the realism-end of the scale. i.e. there is NO way in hell I can even try and pretend I'm playing out some scene from the movie while I'm playing MP JKII. I think if a game is based on movies, I think this should at least be an objective of the gameplay... You can make the game more true to the movies without sacrificing gameplay... (which by the way is what I'm trying to do in my mod...) I understand the points of view of people who say 'It does the job - it's an enjoyable game to play'. But surely you can see why some of us are being left a little bit cold and expecting a little bit more...? And let's agree on one thing. The dev team didn't deliberatly leave out things like proper film-like objectives because they wanted to concentrate on the 'gameplay'! They stuck with the formulaic game-tpyes because it was the option which could produce the MP game with the smallest man-power in the quickest time!! That's not meant to be a dig at them. I'm a professional software devleloper myself. (Not games, but...). So I understand the reasoning. But let's just not fool ourselves as to why the MP game is the way it is... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txa1265 Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk Some games are totally abstract and have no basis in reality. ... MOST games fall somewhere inbetween. i.e. they try and strike a balance between realism and gameplay. I know of NO FPS which doesn't fall into this third catagory ... One thing with shooters - there is a variety of reality based games, where if you get hit you either die or are wounded in a real way - no healthkits, bacta tanks or other power-ups. I certainly don't want THAT for JK! My opinion on the standard JKII gameplay is that it's WAY over-balanced away from the realism-end of the scale. i.e. there is NO way in hell I can even try and pretend I'm playing out some scene from the movie whil I'm playing MP JKII. I think if a game is based on movies, I think this should at least be an objective of the gameplay... ... I understand the points of view of people who say 'It does the job - it's an enjoyable game to play'. But surely you can see why some of us are being left a little bit cold and expecting a little bit more...? You appear to be mixing MP and SP, or perhaps only referring to MP. I say this because I find the SP element very 'movie-like'. To me, the only way a MP game could be like the movies is to develop an entirely new type of team oriented, objective based game. Not at all easy. I remember seeing stuff about different game-types in the November PC Gamer (2001) preview. The more standard ones got implemented, the hard stuff didn't. And let's agree on one thing. The dev team didn't deliberatly leave out things like proper film-like objectives because they wanted to concentrate on the 'gameplay'! They stuck with the formulaic game-tpyes because it was the option which could produce the MP game with the smallest man-power in the quickest time!! That's not meant to be a dig at them. I'm a professional software devleloper myself. (Not games, but...). So I understand the reasoning. But let's just not fool ourselves as to why the MP game is the way it is... I have to believe that the Single Player game was #1 priority for Raven / LEC. As well it should be. JKII as a SP game is a classic (if not groundbreaking) FPS. As for how this ties to the future, I think LEC needs to evaluate a couple of things - how important are SP and MP relative to one another (their view, not ours)? They made a ton of money on the game - it is still at full retail in many places while other FPS from last year are heavily discounted. But MP has its own draw - long term value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenegadeOfPhunk Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 I agree with everything you've said txa1265. I think we may enjoy different things in games though... And yes - I was talking specifically about MP. I agree, SP was closer to the feel of the movies than MP is. And yes, I'm sure it makes sense for the SP game to take priority over the MP game in some ways (heance the relative man-time applied to MP. As I say, I can understand it...) However, none of these points affect my view about the MP game... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk My opinion on the standard JKII gameplay is that it's WAY over-balanced away from the realism-end of the scale. i.e. there is NO way in hell I can even try and pretend I'm playing out some scene from the movie while I'm playing MP JKII. I think if a game is based on movies, I think this should at least be an objective of the gameplay... I agree that MP really isn't the way to get Star Wars immersion out of this game. SP is. But I think that it would be very difficult to get that immersion from MP, regardless of how you alter the gameplay. I mean, MP has all the elements: lightsabers, force powers, familiar locations, familiar skins and models. At least the duel game type should be pretty close to the movies. So why isn't it? To me, it is because you have to rely on other people to help create that immersion. The fact is that many (the majority?) of people playing are teenager l33t d00ds who just want to rack up frags. This will always be the case in MP FPSs. These players will destroy the SW feel that others seek. I mean, as soon as I am dueling against someone using the Lando or Mon Mothma skin, the feel is gone. No amount of gameplay restrictions will change this. As soon as someone says, "stop laming, you lightning whore" any resemblance to the movies is gone. This is why I have reservations about Star Wars Galaxies. Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk You can make the game more true to the movies without sacrificing gameplay... (which by the way is what I'm trying to do in my mod...) But this is true. While I don't think that you can ultimately capture the full SW feel in MP, there are more things you could do to bring it closer. Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk And let's agree on one thing. The dev team didn't deliberatly leave out things like proper film-like objectives because they wanted to concentrate on the 'gameplay'! They stuck with the formulaic game-tpyes because it was the option which could produce the MP game with the smallest man-power in the quickest time!! Also being a software designer, I agree that using the tried and true gametypes is easier than developing new ones. I don't believe that this is the only reason that they went with those gametypes. Another reason is that many people love these gametypes, and this the way they want MP to be. They are tried and true types because so many people have wanted to play them. Really, I think that including these types is a no-brainer from a sales standpoint. Maybe they could have added different types, but perhaps they felt they could provide the best MP by including the gametypes they did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spider AL Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 Precisely Prime, MP never lends itself easily to character immersion, not even in RPGs. I remember back in the day I was on the Discworld MUD, and decided I'd use the same semi-archaic, semi-english middle-class speech and mannerisms as the characters from that series, in order to RPG properly. Five thousand kiddies immediately said: "D00d!!11 WH Y r U talkinG lik THAT??? TALK PROPERLT MOROORN!!!1" Sigh. And that was a TEXT RPG. I shudder to think what SWG will be like for the poor souls who attempt to RPG in that RPG. But an MP FPS is no place to look for any sort of RPG experience, that's simply the truth of the matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenegadeOfPhunk Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 Prime, Can't argue with that. The immersion factor does depend to an extent on the other players. If it's just the chat stuff, I can ignore that. That's not such a problem - for me anyway. And of course, I'm not suggesting you try and force people to act out Star Wars roles. That would just be staging an online play!! I guess I would be happy if I was able to jump into the game and - assuming I was amongst the right group of like-minded players - suddenly be able to look back at the last 5 mins of play and go ' Wow - that felt just like that scene in the movie...' I wouldn't expect every game I played to be like that -of course that's totally unrealistic. It might happen only 50% of the time - or even only 25% of the time - who knows. The main point is that it should be possible. (Of course, it goes without saying that when I'm not feeling totally immersed, it's still a great game that I want to play anyway...) I haven't played JKII MP once and been able to do that. In fact, I haven't gotten close... Again, some people may look at what I've just written and go 'so what?! What's so good about that?'. All I can say is that's what makes a GREAT game for me... About the reason for having the basic gametypes, there is evidence in the MP code that the dev team were working on an objective-oriented gametype to create more movie-like action - the SAGA gametype. From the looks of it, they actually went quite far with it. But, it hasn't made it into the game. Why? Well, while of course it's possible that they suddenly reaslised that it would be so unpopular with JKII players that they couldn't spend one more man-minute developing it, I think it's far more likely that they just ran out of time before the release date, because they didn't have enough people working on the MP game. I could be wrong. I don't know that, but it's gotta be the most likely reason by a long way... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenegadeOfPhunk Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 Spider AL, You may be surprised to hear that I'm in the same boat as you as far as SWG is concerned... I want to play a game where I want to be immersed in the Star Wars films... That doesn't mean I want to sew baskets, learn to dance and braid my hair! I want to shoot stormtroopers, slash dark Jedi's and fly around on a Jetpack like Boba Fett! I just want it to feel as real as possible without good gameplay being forgotten... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk If it's just the chat stuff, I can ignore that. That's not such a problem - for me anyway. As can I. This stuff doesn't really bother me. I was just saying that it certainly doesn't help the SW feel Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk I guess I would be happy if I was able to jump into the game and - assuming I was amongst the right group of like-minded players - suddenly be able to look back at the last 5 mins of play and go ' Wow - that felt just like that scene in the movie...' I wish this was the way it was too. Unfortunately, it didn't work out this way. But luckily, I have an SP game to play that does help to supply that SW immersion when I want it. Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk Well, while of course it's possible that they suddenly realised that it would be so unpopular with JKII players that they couldn't spend one more man-minute developing it, I think it's far more likely that they just ran out of time before the release date, because they didn't have enough people working on the MP game. I could be wrong. I don't know that, but it's gotta be the most likely reason by a long way... I'm sure this was really the case. Being in the software business, you will know that this is how decisions are often made. What I ment to say was that the reason why the old gametypes were left in was because they are still popular. Once they got the gameplay going on those, they probably ran out of time/money to develop unique gametypes. I didn't mean to imply that time and money had nothing to do with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenegadeOfPhunk Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 *damn* I misread didn't as doesn't!! Prime, if you saw my last post - disregard it. I misread you...! I totally agree. I think it's just a bit of a shame - because MP has possibilities that can't be realised in SP... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rumor Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 ::waves at darth fett:: sup. check your email foo!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted March 21, 2003 Share Posted March 21, 2003 Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk *damn* I misread didn't as doesn't!! Prime, if you saw my last post - disregard it. I misread you...! I totally agree. I think it's just a bit of a shame - because MP has possibilities that can't be realised in SP... No problemo! And I certainly agree with your last point... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted March 21, 2003 Share Posted March 21, 2003 It's true, unless you're talking about saber duels, the only possible way to make JK2 "jibe" with the "reality" of the Star Wars movies would be to either have full coop play (multiple human players completing the single player campaign together) or else rewrite it into a full fledged RPG (so you end up with Star Wars Galaxies or Knights of the Old Republic). The primary goal of a FPS game is not to be a simulation, as you say, but rather to pack lots of action/thrills and shooting into a nice neat package. A few FPS games try to stretch that formula a little, but in the end, they all are fairly shallow and "dumbed down" compared to an RPG in terms of realism, simulation, immersion, character building, etc. But if it isn't an RPG or a simulator, what other type of game is there? Is the only proper way to make a Star Wars game to make a sim/roleplayer? JK2 never set out to be a Jedi Simulator, so it shouldn't be criticized when it fails to be one... that's what I'm saying. It does the job it sets out to do (though I admit the SP campaign could be better in spots) and its fun and it "feels" like Star Wars. I don't see why JK2 has to meet this super high standard of Star Wars realism that isn't held up to any other Star Wars game that's been made. Heck, the X-Wing series is regarded as some of the best SW gaming period, yet its full of gross inaccuracies and slights to details, canon and continuity. I don't see what else was expected of JK2, other than as one person said, only include weapons that were featured in the movies and have them only function as they did in the movies (which might have screwed over game balance in MP anyway). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenegadeOfPhunk Posted March 21, 2003 Share Posted March 21, 2003 I would say the X-wing series is a really good case study of this topic... It had good gameplay, fun to play - and you could tell the the developers had sat there and said 'Right - how can we really get the player to feel like their really flying an X-wing / Tie fighter - as if they were part of the movie'. ...that's the SP game. ..well, most of the time anyway. I think Tie Fighter got a bit much sometimes with the uber-ships they had in it... I can see where you coming from about the MP game though. They never did work out how two online players should go about dog-fighting each-other. Most of the time, you ended coming straight at each-other, and then literally flying round in circles, somehow trying to get behind the other one. An image of a dog trying to bite it's own tail is coming to my mind!! lol But that was a fundemental flaw of the gameplay concept. That had nothing to do with the fact that the X-wing games tried to be immersive. In short, X-wing MP had the opposite problem that - at least in my view - JKII MP has. Great immersion, but flawed (online) gameplay... What I'm asking for in an MP game is both in equal amounts! You seem to be saying this just isn't possible.. I would REALLY disupte that. It's a bit difficult - sure. You have to spend a lot of time thinking things through and designing your game really well. But it's certainly not impossible... Full on co-op of the SP game or RPG are NOT the only possibilities - not at all! And like I said earlier - I think Raven and LucasArts were perfectly capable of it - they just didn't make it a priority - for whatever reason... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solo4114 Posted March 21, 2003 Share Posted March 21, 2003 I'm not asking for a Star Wars sim. I doubt we'll even get that with SWG, especially with regards to sabre combat. There's really just no way to simulate sword fighting in a video game, given that, as opposed to guns where you point and "click", with a sword, you have to slash all over, can change grips, attack angles, etc. It's just too damn complex to ever even simulate. That said, you can make sabre fighting and the rest of the game truer to the films, while at the same time, retaining the feel of the films. The X-Wing games for the most part held true to the films and the feel of the films. I played them in MP doing the Co-op campaign in Balance of Power for XvT, and that was a blast. You had a storyline, a campaign, a real sense of purpose in fighting. Even if you were just dogfighting (which gets its name from how dogs will circle each other when fighting), it still felt pretty realistic and true to the films, even though things were changed. JO just didn't really have that feel for me in any respect. The guns, the force powers, the sabres, etc. Granted, a BIG part of this is the jackasses that play online games, but that's just a truism of the gaming industry now, and we all have to accept that. Regardless, I still think that you can make games that are balanced, fun, AND true to the source material. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hekx Posted March 21, 2003 Share Posted March 21, 2003 It's not perfect, and it's not terrible. It's slightly above average. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenegadeOfPhunk Posted March 21, 2003 Share Posted March 21, 2003 Solo4114, I totally agree. Well, I still stand by my opinion that X-wing games - online - weren't the best. I think it was just one of those concepts that is very difficult to work online. Yes, dogfighting involves circling each-other, but REAL dogfighting has gravity, air dynamics etc. You've also got the ground nearby to watch out for! The space dogfighting in X-wing had none of those. So you literally were just circling around in empty space! It's different in SP, because the bot enemies didn't act like real players... But I TOTALLY get what your saying about the good immersion stuff they had in the MP game. That stuff was very cool. It's just a shame that the concept at it's basic level didn't work for me - MP wise... But JKII is a totally different story. I see no reason why you can't take the cool team-play and 'movie-realism' concepts, and apply them to the basic JKII game. In fact, that's pretty much exactly what I'm trying to do in my mod... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted March 22, 2003 Share Posted March 22, 2003 That's the beauty of editing... don't like something, you can change it, or if something is missing you can add it in. Now if only they'd release the SP SDK... oh well. Incidentally, I like the DF series even more because it incorporates both the movie material AND the Expanded Universe into it. MotS was heavier on the EU material, while JK slapped on a heavy dose of the "movie touch" (with the eye candy mostly). The complaints I've heard about the Xwing series aren't that they're not great games (they are) just that stuff doesn't jibe with canon (though later brain bugs creep into the Rogue Squadron tales, etc) like the size of certain Imperial ships, and the overall power of X-wings (X-wings can basically kill anything it seems). I haven't played that much of the XWing series, but my argument (from the DF series) is that its really incredibly hard to do what you propose, to get it "right." Hundreds of games come out that don't meet expectations or fall flat for whatever reason. These days games (and innovation) are expensive risks, which is perhaps why we've only seen "incremental" improvements in the "depth" and "atmosphere" of these games (technological advancements alone don't guarentee good games). I guess what we're saying in all this is that JK2 succeeds as a game, but doesn't quite live up to the higher standard set by "Star Wars fans" am I right (even though I consider myself one, just saying)? Then again, as SW fans, we've been treated (unfortunately) to a lot of mediocre or just flat out bad games in the past few years (a slew of them between XWA and JK2). For me the relief was that JK2 is shaping up to be everything that Obi-Wan strived to be but ultimately wasn't (except that "Protect the Queen" mode.. now that would be something to see... give our editors time!). Trek fans have even more to complain about though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenegadeOfPhunk Posted March 22, 2003 Share Posted March 22, 2003 Yeah Kurgan - I take your point. 'Either do, or do not'! The MP team decide that they either go full on for a good, immersive experience (risky), or they go for a more QIII with force powers and sabers approach (not so risky). I can understand that. I would debate how difficult it really is to make an immersive game that is perfectly playable too though... Harder yes. Really hard...? I'm not so sure... P.S. I've no doubt your a real SW fan, just as I am. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solo4114 Posted March 22, 2003 Share Posted March 22, 2003 Kurgan, Yeah, I agree that there were aspects of the X-Wing games that were not true to canon, but a lot of that was due to the restrictions of the engines and hardware abilities at the time. IE: star destroyers were pretty small, when compared to their movie counterparts, but that was largely due to the fact that, until 3D hardware technology had progressed, drawing anything too large would choke your computer to death. Hell, I can remember flying the Death Star trench run in the original X-wing and having to turn down the detail pretty seriously, because too many polygons were killing my framerate. With DF, you probably couldn't do fully faithful things like include a sabre (though I ended up making a patch for that, replacing fist graphics with a sabre -- again, not a perfect match, due to the limitations of the engine at the time -- it was actually a pretty popular patch. Got around 15K downloads on AOL alone!), but that was acceptable at that point. JK1 was closer to the feel of the films, but again, lacked the immersive qualities due to the almost entirely DM focused gameplay out there. Though, at that point, CTF games were really just starting to take off. With JK2, though, given the innovation we'd seen in other games, like RTCW, I had hoped for better MP gaming. As far as the SP went, I felt that was pretty true to the films, although there were certainly flaws there too. I could overlook the flaws, though, because the overall environment and immersion factor was pretty high in SP. With MP, though, due to the game modes that they chose to include and support (IE: FFA was supported FAR more heavily than CTF, just based on # of maps alone), you really lost that immersion factor. Even simple support of CTF with better designed bases would've helped (though, on its own, this wouldn't have done it). Essentially, what I'm saying is that I'm willing to sacrifice faithfulness to the canon if the deviation still maintains a good "feel" to it and is fun to play. Unfortunately, JK2 didn't quite do that for me in terms of MP. Renegade's points bring up interesting questions and concerns. The existence of the SAGA mode, even in a rudimentary form, indicates that we COULD have had some real innovation and immersion, but due to time and/or budget constraints, this mode wasn't developed. Instead, the devs went for what was tried and true, guaranteed to have a built-in fanbase, but ultimately, the same old stuff you see in ANY FPS (with the heavy focus on DM mode). Even the variations like Jedi Master or Holocron were simply tweaks to the existing DM style. I know a ton of people love this style of play, but I think there's a large group of folks out there who are now looking for something more. To me, it's much more exciting to play as part of a team where you're working towards a goal of some sort, even if that goal is just capturing a flag and returning it to your base. Running around shooting anything that moves, well, if I want that, I'll play SP. What this suggests to me, though, is that LucasArts' timetable and requirements for the game were such that it likely dictated to some degree whether Raven would devote time to newer modes of gameplay. After all, we have to get those games out by X date in order to get a good quarterly report. It seems that, in many ways, the requirements of running a business impact on just how good your game is. That same business mentality also limits the amount of support you'll give to a game, once you've sold your predesignated # of copies. I dunno. It's rather disheartening in a lot of ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted March 22, 2003 Share Posted March 22, 2003 This seems to be a problem with the FPS genre in general, and not just JK2. Is that a fair assumption? The same old game modes, weapons, scenarios, and styles keep repeating in all the games, etc because they sell and because they're tried and true and familiar. JK2's strength, as I've said over and over again, is the sabers and force. While this was fresh and new in JK1, it's old hat for many of us now. But the other stuff really isn't surprising, considering just about every FPS game has the same "problem." Just look at recent FPS games compared to their predecessors, it's more like a spectrum of development. Precious little actually changes, beyond eye candy tech improvements and better AI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solo4114 Posted March 22, 2003 Share Posted March 22, 2003 Originally posted by Kurgan This seems to be a problem with the FPS genre in general, and not just JK2. Is that a fair assumption? The same old game modes, weapons, scenarios, and styles keep repeating in all the games, etc because they sell and because they're tried and true and familiar. JK2's strength, as I've said over and over again, is the sabers and force. While this was fresh and new in JK1, it's old hat for many of us now. But the other stuff really isn't surprising, considering just about every FPS game has the same "problem." Just look at recent FPS games compared to their predecessors, it's more like a spectrum of development. Precious little actually changes, beyond eye candy tech improvements and better AI. Exactly, Kurgan. And that's the problem in a nutshell. You have very little innovation across the board in FPS games in general. BF1942 and RTCW are about the most innovative games I've seen lately, but even they have problems. When your game is fundamentally no different from the other games out there, and rests on its license to distinguish it (that license being implemented by force and sabres), then you'd better make DAMN sure that the licensed material evokes the underlying material to which it is supposed to refer. With JK2, the entire game, out of the box, was old hat for the most part, with only graphical changes and new implementations for force powers and sabre control. But, even these aspects were flawed, and where some improved, others became even more problematic over time with the patches. Thus, considering the lack of innovation in the underlying gameplay, what was going to distinguish JK2 from the slew of other FPS games as well as its predecessor, was its ability to suck you into the gaming world and help create the feel that you're playing in that universe. When the design of the game failed in that respect (for me at least), the game lost all lustre for me. It became, in effect, just another ho-hum FPS deathmatch game. It didn't suck me in in terms of the environment, it didn't present me with any novel ways to play, and it boiled down to running around endlessly killing people with guns that were basically rehashes of UT and Q3 guns (even if they are named after Star Wars weapons and look somewhat like what you see in the Essential Guides). As far as the force and sabre combat went, the various design changes that were implemented fixed some stuff and horribly broke others. Ultimately, I was playing a game that never really FELT like Star Wars as far as these aspects of gameplay went. If I wanted UT, I'd play UT. If I wanted Q3, I'd play that. I wanted Star Wars, and what I got just didn't feel like it. And since I don't really like deathmatch, and CTF was only marginally supported, this game was bound to fail eventually, at least in terms of MP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted March 23, 2003 Share Posted March 23, 2003 Just look at some of the reviews of Unreal2.. now I haven't played the game myself yet, but it doesn't sound like anything special. Other than graphics anyway... I imagine Doom3 will be a splash based on hype and the name alone, probably won't be that innovative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solo4114 Posted March 23, 2003 Share Posted March 23, 2003 Yep. Same as Q4 will probably be. Most of the games that come out from ID are, in and of themselves, absolute crap. It's the underlying engines and their customizability that makes them succeed. Q3 had the same problem for me. Flashy graphics, boring gameplay, weak CTF mode. You can download all the models and such that you want, but if the game itself still just boils down to DM, I'll pass. Plus, Q3 always felt like it moved at the speed of a 5 year old hopped up on sugar cereal after having watched 7 straight hours of Saturday morning cartoons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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