randomfixation Posted January 11, 2003 Share Posted January 11, 2003 This is my first post ever after much reading at the site. I was just thinking it may be possible to add a planetary bombardment type of weapon. Pay some resources to have starships shoot down over an area. Granted it cannot be too powerful, but it would be helpful while storming a base. I can't think of how to balance it with civs that wouldn't have starships to fire down at the planet. Any comments or ideas on how to balance a weapon like this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted January 11, 2003 Share Posted January 11, 2003 Choosing Generals-hum...not a bad idea. I just can't think about a special ability they would bring. An some generals would be left-overs(Han, Admiral Ozzel, General Jar Jar Binks-Try to win with his strategies!, some others). And who wouldn't choose Thrawn! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorranSec Posted January 11, 2003 Share Posted January 11, 2003 Is it just me, or does fergie's "General" idea sound a bit like EE, with the different generals helping in different areas of play? Anyway.... hm. I don't like the generals/officers/morale thing at all. Fergie, how would your 'picking generals' thing work if, as you suggested, everyone made a Thrawn? You'll probably end up with people always making the best kind of general, and then there'd be no real purpose to having the generals at all. Or you'll get civ-specific generals, and you might as well just have normal bonusese. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darthfergie Posted January 11, 2003 Share Posted January 11, 2003 well like I said customizing generals take points...you can make your general a ground emphasis man with most of his ability points and special skills going into the infantry class and mechs. You can make him a stealthy general with special stealth bonuses and speed enhancements although armor may be cut off around the bend...There's a Jedi Ally who has alot of points envested in the Jedi side of play allowing him access to masters, etc. (if you hate Jedi...you no get Jedi). And of course special skills can be implemented through a command bar. Reloading powers. Such as re-enforcements (heal), "intensify forward battery firepower" (increase firepower of friendly units in an area), "Use the force" (temporarily give Jedi a berserker like mode), "It's a trap!" (enemy armor decreases), etc...You can make a general that is for a specialty mission or one that is just balanced. In campaign you can start out with a generic or created general and add points and skills to him as the campaign goes along...RPG elements added...yeah... BTW, Civ specific generals are a good thing and luckily there will be more than one way to use a civ correctly so there will be more than one way to make the "perfect" general. If you addore stealthy tactics...go ahead...you'll take some shots in some categories...but you don't use those near as much as your specialty...if you like Jedis and think they are they only infantry for you...go ahead and cut points and skills that are linked with regular infantry and focus on Jedi if you want to. It's all about the strange combos people can come up with. Makes for a unique experiance every time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 But who the hell wouldn't pick Thrawn damn it! Which person is a big enough idiot not to choose one of the greatest commanders of all SW time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorranSec Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 Fergie- I don't think that would work. Civs should be designed to be good at certain things- ie the Gungans are good at sea, the Rebels are good at air. With these 'cut-and-paste' generals, you'll get Jedi-strong Gungans, air-strong Imperials, trooper-strong Naboo... It isn't about making it a unique experience. And your idea wouldn't do that anyway- it'd just mean a Jedi-lover could have Jedi no matter what civ he plays with. Goodbye civ bonuses and civ balance, hello tailored generals! However, I think the 'special skills' would be fun. Sounds a bit like the Heroes in WC3, except not too much like them, which means that most people should like them. So... if you want tailored heroes, just pick and choose from balanced special skills. You could still get Thrawn. In fact, building on Fergie's idea, perhaps every 'special skill' could be a line from a movie/book, and some could be Thrawn's- eg. "Watch and learn, Captain Pellaeon." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 Originally posted by CorranSec You could still get Thrawn. In fact, building on Fergie's idea, perhaps every 'special skill' could be a line from a movie/book, and some could be Thrawn's- eg. "Watch and learn, Captain Pellaeon." ? What do you mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorranSec Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 Let me explain the 'general choosing' process in more detail. In the civ choosing screen, you click a button and it takes you to the General Selection screen. You can select from some premade generals (such as Thrawn) or make your own. Each general has a picture, a name and three special skills. All skills would be balanced- well, all "Skill 1's" would be balanced, and all "Skill 2's" would be balanced, and all "Skill 3's" would be balanced. Thus, all generals are equal. These skills take the form of lines from the movies/EU. When you click on one of these in-game, the unit says it, and it has an effect. These effects could be targeted on a single unit (enemy or friendly), a group of units, an area, the general him/her/itself, or all enemy/friendly units (though I doubt something that powerful could be balanced). I'm racking my brains pretty hard to think of an example of a general. Hmm... how does this sound? General: Grand Admiral Thrawn Picture: *Thrawn pic* Skill 1: "Let him be as cautious as he likes." Temporarily cloaks a unit. Skill 2: "Watch and learn, Captain." Increases the attack of all friendly capital ships in an area. Skill 3: "When you understand a species' art, you understand that species." Reveals the LOS of an enemy Command Center (or building like that) for a period of time. It's probably a little unbalanced... but that's the work of five minutes and a hasty flipping through the Thrawn trilogy. Skill 2: "Let him be as cautious as he likes." Temporarily cloaks a unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sithmaster_821 Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 War Machines-We've been here before Pilots-See WarMachines Officers/Moral-Not only does this make the game overly complex and micro-intesive, using the whole moral thing has been like invading Russia in the winter for RTS makers. It is probably the most clear-cut example of Realism over Gameplay, and that is the most basic reason it fails Generals-Aside from the fact that this is such an obvious rip off of AoM, and, seeing that LA is hypothetically making their own engine that could mean lawsuits, it seems entirely forced and cumbersome to the flow of the game. In AoM, it worked because it was original, it was deeply incorporated into the fabric of the game, and it made sense Sorry if I'm ripping on people's ideas, I'm just trying to make sure that certain ideas are contained Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 Sith is right it would be strange how suddenly, a general can make a unit cloaked.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorranSec Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 Sith: I'm sorry, but I've never played AoM. I apologise if I ripped off my ideas. Honestly, that's rather confusing... I don't recall ever reading anything about AoM generals. I've never heard of them. How does it seem forced and cumbersome? I've only given three examples of how it might, just might, influence gameplay. They all seem good to me, though perhaps a little powerful. Luke's dad: Have you heard of something called "suspension of disbelief"? You have to use that a little in games like these. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 That's something else...in this case it would be like the god powers in AoM. But that made sense but this doesn't make any but not any at all. it's not like a Hutt civ...which also is something that make sense in some way... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorranSec Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 Let me explain how the three powers I suggested make sense, in the gaming kind of way. Skill 1: "Let him be as cautious as he likes." Temporarily cloaks a unit. This is Thrawn referring to Luke being cautious about C'baoth, and thinking that it's a trap. Thrawn hides the fact that it's a trap. Thus, the cloak. Skill 2: "Watch and learn, Captain." Increases the attack of all friendly capital ships in an area. This was said during a capital ship battle. Thus, increase the attack. Skill 3: "When you understand a species' art, you understand that species." Reveals the LOS of an enemy Command Center (or building like that) for a period of time. Thrawn learns important things about enemies by studying their art. I'd consider what's happening around their CC to be an important thing. Thus, reveal the LOS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 now it makes sense! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorranSec Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 Luke's dad has seen the light. I kinda see what you mean about the god powers. Damn. However, these are quite different, and do make sense in a different way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 Sadly they only make sense if you know the background story... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sithmaster_821 Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 You realize that you are using mere quotes from the book as the basis of the generals' powers. The problem is that 1. You will run out of ideas fast 2. Realism issues 3. Gameplay Infringement 4. Legal Issues AoM uses minor gods that grant 2-4 (usually 3) mythical improvements, 1-2(usually 1) mythical units and a god power. And the god powers are very similar to the ideas that you proposed, but you only get one each age for a total of four, and in your proposed idea, the total is 12. And godpowers have a profound effect on the course of the battle, which is why they have only one use and are limited to four a game. Having 12 will send gameplay tospy-turvey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 Who said that there was gonna be a total of 12? It's only three for all the ages... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorranSec Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 Sith: Of course I realise that. I'm not entirely stupid. There aren't many problems. 1. Well, I quite easily found 3 for a single character, and that's just in the first chapter of "Heir to the Empire!" 2. Gameplay>Realism and suspension of disbelief 3. Why? How? 4. The game's being made by LA. I don't think they'll have much of a problem. These don't have that much of a profound effect, thus, they can be used over and over- but requiring a kind of 'mana.' That way, it's balanced. Whoever said anything about 12 special skills? The general starts with three, and they're the same during the game. Luke's dad: Yeah, I'm kinda worried about that too. Perhaps there will be a 'background' page for each character and skill, with explanations like the ones I just posted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 They could simply ask nicely ES and maybe they won't get sued! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darthfergie Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 Originally posted by Sithmaster_821 Generals-Aside from the fact that this is such an obvious rip off of AoM, and, seeing that LA is hypothetically making their own engine that could mean lawsuits, it seems entirely forced and cumbersome to the flow of the game. In AoM, it worked because it was original, it was deeply incorporated into the fabric of the game, and it made sense It also rips off WCIII and it also rips off Generals and it also rips off alot of crap...I mean it's like saying it's wrong to have real time in strategy games because somebody else used it first. You can pull elements out of other games without lawsuit as long as you change the name or something to that effect. And like I said...AoM isnt the only game using commanders like that...sorry to burst you're bubble. And going deeper into general's skills, if you choose a preset general they are set...when in campaign you build your character up and customize him slowly. When making your own for skirmish use, you have a preset amount of Points to invest. Skills take many points and are for specialized things, ability is where you invest the points into your general stats (Infantry, Mech, Jedi, Air, Offense, defense, etc) and you add a pic from a preset collection to be the custom general's avatar. *You will not be able to move the general around in game because he would naturally be killed within seconds if he/she got near anybody decent, so general animations are not needed* (My view on it...probably wouldn't matter either way you go tho). And as for thrawn...I wouldn't think he'd be in the game, since as much as he was called for...Gaber declined to put him in both sets of GB...but you can always make him through cutomizing options and by d/loading a pick of thrawn and adding it to the collection used in game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 Okay, looks like I've been away too long... Corran, I agree pilots work best with Air, but I made them for all War Machines because it would make more sense gameplay-wise. Rather than making Air a "special" War Machine, all War Machines work the same. Fergie, I don't think you would find yourself forgetting pilots. It would just be a natural thing to build. Like now, you wouldn't "forget" to build some sort of AA units. Also, you could have research that improves your pilots survival. It also makes it necessary to back-up your War Machines with Troopers, so downed Pilots can be protected. And when I said Trade Fed had more droids than Confed, I meant in the interests of gameplay. The only non-droids in Trade Fed at the moment are Bounty Hunter and a few pilotted vehicles like the cargo hovercraft. In the Confederacy you have Workers, Bounty Hunter, Fighters, Geonosian Warriors, etc that are all not droids. As for the selecting an Officer, I LOVE that idea. I wasn't sure about the morale side of things, but I really wanted Officers in the game. This way I get my officers but no messy morale. It would be a great way to even have variations within the same civs. However, you have to make sure you don't go against the themes of the armies (eg strong Gungan Air). As an aside, I recently discovered that the Confederacy's Air is WORSE than the Gungan's Air. What is up with that? Geonosian Fighters might not be the most accurate around, but they definitely don't deserve +5% cost and +5% build time. And they DO deserve a lot more upgrades than they get. Not to make them strong in Air, but at least better than Gungans. Anyway, lets play with some ideas as to how these Officers could work. Would they be represented by a unit in the field? If so, what happens if they die? I'd say yes to a unit, and you lose their bonuses should they die. And I think choosing them would be similar to choosing a civilisation or whatever they call them in Empire Earth. You'd need to chose a leader once you rech TL2. They'd have straightforward bonuses rather than skills that you use. Meditate on this I will, and think of some cool bonuses for Officers in the movies. I still like my pilots, but I'd be willing to let them go in the game if we could come up with some way they could be represented like the Officers. If Officers are used like this, it ruins my rule of three anyway so Pilots suddenly become a bit out of place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smellincoffee Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 AU_Andy_Ewok- I think you're thinking of Praetorians.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darthfergie Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 Originally posted by Admiral Vostok Anyway, lets play with some ideas as to how these Officers could work. Would they be represented by a unit in the field? If so, what happens if they die? I'd say yes to a unit, and you lose their bonuses should they die. And I think choosing them would be similar to choosing a civilisation or whatever they call them in Empire Earth. You'd need to chose a leader once you rech TL2. They'd have straightforward bonuses rather than skills that you use. Meditate on this I will, and think of some cool bonuses for Officers in the movies. No representation on the field...that means extra unique animations and makes them tougher to use...you would always have to assign your leader into a CTL slot to acess him/her and they would then have a range to special skills and they would be required to go to the front and be killed by one stray laser bolt...mission over...No, I think the leader should be you...your avatar in the game as you are looking at the progress of the battle you issue orders at a safe distance. and CorranSec...It was my idea all along to have the skills as quotes from the movies...although I couldn't think of one for sending in re-enforcements at the time and I didn't voice it as a specific in my post because it is just a tiny minor detail...but a nice one... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sithmaster_821 Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 So let me get this straight: 1. You only chose it once (I was under the assumption that it was chosen every age like in AoM:o ) 2. They act as minor civs 3. You can use them more than once 4. They are civ specific 5. They have powers based on something that the character said off hand I dont know about you guys, but I see serious problems. The whole you can use them more than once thing is gonna kill it. If they are expensive and take forever to recharge, no one will use them. And if they are cheap, thats all that people will use.Even if they are moderately expensive, people wont use them unitl late game, when resourses are no longer the problem. And if you make them too weak and forget the price tag, they will just be a waste of time and RAM. Also, since they are based on bits of sentences that characters said, not only will they be obscure, its not being based even loosely on something that should be moderately important: balance. Sure you try to balance them afterwards, but that ends up being time wasting and not especially effective. And I dobt even know why we are discussing an idea that is such an obvious ripoff tht it would be a step back for LA, there will be MS lawyers knocking on LA's door the second that it is announced AU_Andy_Ewok- I think you're thinking of Praetorians.. That was the game Praetorians. Its the one I couldnt spell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.