Why I stopped playing

[Solo4114]

Not that anyone cares, but I felt like posting what it was about this game that made me stop playing and move on to other games.

 

To begin with, a large part of the problem is not specific to this game, but rather is an epidemic in multiplayer gaming. That being the drastic division of mindsets in terms of why we play in the first place. Some folks go in to compete and win. Others go in to play and put winning secondary to what they see as having fun. These two camps never have and never will agree on how games should be played. It's not even as simple a breakdown as clan players and non-clan players, either. I attribute much of the rancor in this community to this division of mindsets. One early illustration was the Saberist Code vs. the Anti-Saberist Code. On the one hand, you had a group of people who, in an attempt to immerse themselves in the game more, came up with a set of "rules" by which they'd chosen to fight. On the other hand, you had folks who thought that was just plain goofy and that the object of the game was to beat your opponent. Again, two different incompatible mindsets. So what, though? Why does this affect gameplay and why does this change how people have fun in the game? Read on...

 

The various patch debacles for this game illustrated the problems in the differing mindsets. When the game first got started, people complained about spammed moves, most notable the DFA move. There were, in fact, bugs with it. People also complained about the hit detection and the fact that sabre combat was more a case of jousting rather than actual fencing of any kind. So, Raven released 1.03. 1.03 fixed some of the problems, but created new ones. Yes, you could actually block sabres now, but fights took a long time with the sabre. Yes, you could no longer spam the DFA move, but now you had a new problem: the ass fighters. Once again, the problems in playing styles reared their ugly heads. On the one hand, you had people who viewed ass fighting as lame. They viewed the overpowering backstab move as lame, and especially disliked combinations like the pull/backstab. On the other hand you had people who didn't mind, and were happy to use these moves, since blocking had made killing an opponent a bit harder. (or as many saw it, made surviving easier)

 

Then came 1.04. Once again, this fixed problems and introduced new problems. The backstab was no longer the ultimate move. But, from what I can remember (I didn't play much with pure 1.04), now NO move was an uber-move, and blocking had only been slightly toned down. 1.04, however, came loooong after 1.03. Consequently, a lot of people had become turned off to the game and had moved on to other games.

 

Following 1.04, you also had the rise of the two Jedimoves/plus/whatever mods, which added new movements, allowed hilt usage, multiple sabres, dual-bladed sabres, etc. This breathed some life back into the game, but I wondered if it had been too little too late. Regardless, most of this stuff was still fun.

 

What really really ended up making me stop playing the game, however, was not the above issues. They contributed to my lack of interest, but the thing that finally pushed me over the edge was the utterly dull gameplay itself.

 

I'm not someone who likes deathmatch. I never have been and I never will be. I don't dislike folks who do, hell, they're entitled to play and have fun however they like. But the idea of just running around killing people mindlessly, without some underlying goal (besides scoring points) gets old to me. And that, it seemed, was what most folks liked doing. I never saw a real mod community develop that focused on different TYPES of gameplay, as opposed to different methods of swinging your sabre. There were plenty of graphical, sound, and damage mods, and plenty of ways in which sabre combat was changed, but I never felt like there was much else to do in this game besides play DM. The CTF that came with the game was boring and got old pretty quickly for me, especially because there was no differentiation between players. I'd gotten used to games like RTCW, where you had differences imposed by virtue of a class system, and I'd grown to really enjoy that. I never saw a mod like that for this game, though I always hoped I would. In the meantime, what CTF maps I did see were fairly straightforward and boring. Ultimately, it all just got passe for me. I love a good sabre fight as much as the next guy, and I love the fact that this game allows you to do that reasonably well. What I didn't love, however, was the variety of gameplay that I found. It was all just the same stuff over and over and over again. Sure, you can spruce it up by playing a new DM map or playing with new skins, models, hilts, etc. But in the end, it was all just standard DM or a weak CTF offering.

 

THAT was what got me out of this game. I'd like to get back into it, especially with the release of Ep. II on DVD rekindling my interest in sabre combat. But I wonder if, if I ended up back on a server somewhere, I wouldn't find just the same old DM/Duel/CTF stuff that I saw before.

[C'jais]

Sad to hear, mate.

 

Have you tried Promod?

[TheMadDoofer]

Yeah, ProMod made a sort of class system that made the game better. Go d/l it and try it out.

[Guest Jolts]

yeah, promod helps, but the main point is its the basic modes of gameplay that are old outdated and boring. Doesn't matter how much promod improves basic gameplay to me, the actual gameplay modes bore me to death.

 

I love star wars, I think everyone does, but look at all the great option for other mp games now.

[Pedantic]

I myself love playing duel mode. It just seems so much more fun than FFA, etc. And it seems like a fairly unique gameplay mode compared to other games.

[Hekx]

I love Star Wars, and everytime I watch one of the movies and see the saber combat; I turn to JK2

 

I personally like CTF more than 1 v 1 duels, no idea why, I just like CTF for all games.

 

ProMod is good, even though I haven't invested the time into learning how to use the combat system

 

I'll probably be around a while on this game because it's Star Wars and there's sabers

 

Have you ever played Hydroball? That is an extra fun-type gametype? I'm still waiting for someone to create a 'kick' game, maybe even JK2: Football

 

Earlier I was playing on JediMod, and I turned on backstab spinning aswell as lunging in mid-air.. I'm thankful I only started on MP when 1.04 was out

[Solo4114]

I haven't tried ProMod yet, and I don't really know much about it. What's the deal exactly? Everyone raves and prostrates themselves in thanks at Artifex's feet (Which is funny, considering at one point he publically "retired" from the game), but I haven't actually seen the details on what the mod does. Artifex was the guy who started the anti-saberists code, and I tended to be one of the people more into the immersion experience rather than the win with whatever move experience.

 

Actually, as part of his retirement notice, Artifex pointed out that the game had degenerated into nothing but pulls and backstabs and whoever could execute it first. I had to agree with him, but given that he'd advocated exactly this path, I didn't have a whole lot of sympathy.

 

I do think that DM and the minimal CTF mode provided were insufficient to keep this game going for a really long time. Sadly, though I'd hoped differently, the game simply went the way of JK2 for me: interesting because of the star wars environment, but ultimately just a Q3 TC with force powers, and nothing terribly inventive. Honestly, I think I was spoiled by RTCW. Now that I play mostly BF1942, I think I might end up spoiled again (there you have classes, huge battles and battlefields, AND vehicles). I'll check out ProMod, though. who knows. Maybe I'll like it.

[Walwi Makno]

Check out the ProMod homepage for more info about ProMod

 

www.oculis.org/promod

 

I find this much better than basejk and it's the only thing I play now. Right now, Duel is my favorite gametype, but I wish we had some full force promod servers available.

 

As for the different game modes, I agree with you. I think we should get some modders working on some different ones. Like "King of the hill" or something (My brother and I play "King under the hill" in UT2k3 in Antalus... lotsa fun).

[zerowingzero]

I can see your point, FFA's can get tedious and there is more than just seeing who gets the most frags.

 

I suggest trying promod 3 now, or wait untill artifex adds saga support, which once he gets an idea, nothing short of hospitalization will stop him.

 

In case you don't know, saga is a goal oriented gametype that doesnt really focus on frags, much like the assult gametype of UT. I suggest checking back here from time to time if you do't find the current version of Promod to your liking.

 

EDIT: if you like duels, you may want to try this:

 

http://www.styleoversubstance.net/

 

it's not offically released, but there's a download link in the forums.

[razorace]

I don't know about that....Artifex was suppose to work with me on creating a Saga 2.0 after Promod Beta 3, but he hasn't contacted me yet.

[Solo4114]

Ok, so I reinstalled and downloaded a few new player models along with ProMod 3.0. I tried it out for about 30 min tonight against the bots, and I have to say it's VERY weird to me.

 

The good:

 

I like the fact that there is a class system. Jedi are not uber powerful, and you don't have them running around with flechette cannons (unless you spent the points for that). I like that not everyone can pick up every item, too.

 

The bad:

 

I'm having a rather tough time getting the hang of the sabre system. The defense/offense meters are interesting, but I'm not entirely sure if I like them yet. The fact that the direction you move affects this is cool, but I wonder how much time there is for strategy in the gameplay. Given that it's pretty damn fast-paced, thinking to myself "Ok, I have to run forward to attack, then back up, then duck and back up at the same time on defense" is a little strange, and I'm not sure how feasible it is. For me at least. I guess I tend to "act on instinct," as Old Ben once put it. Then again, maybe it's just the bots. They tend to just run around shooting everything in sight and swinging wildly. Not much time to think when you're playing against them. I'm probably also WOEFULLY out of practice with the sabre as it is.

 

I also think that the point system for gunners is a little unfair. Jedi seem to get to spend much less by way of points to get comparably high level abilities. Gunners have to spend quite a bit, not to mention spread their points out, if they want to be effective on the battlefield. I'm sure I'm not gonna change anyone's mind on that, it's just my own opinion.

 

Overall:

 

I'm still undecided. I like the idea of reducing the randomness of the game, and I like the notion that you have to build your skills up both in real life and with the point system. I'm not sure if the game is really designed to be played that way, though. That's the problem. Maybe I just suck at it, or maybe I'm really out of practice, but it just seems like it's a little too fast-paced to give you much time to strategize in-game. I mean, it's not like we've all been taught katas or forms for the game.

 

Plus, when you get down to it, Artifex's mod only takes you so far. It tweaks the combat system, not the underlying game modes themselves. It does add classes, but there's really no sense of purpose in the game still, and that's what ultimately makes me lose interest in this game. At the end of the day, it still comes down to fragging, and the game just doesn't seem like it was ever designed for CTF well. Sabres and CTF just never mixed for me. Cool in theory, lousy in execution (sabres and CTF, that is). When I'm finally on vacation at the end of this coming week, I'll give this mod a few days of consistent play to see if I enjoy it. If not, JK2 goes off the hard drive for good, I'm afraid, unless I see that this saga thing happens. THAT sounds pretty cool to me. Actually having goals and a purpose in your gameplay (instead of just "Hey! He moved! KILL HIM!!!") is what I tend to find really appealing. Without that, though, this is just another deathmatch shootemup with Star Wars aspects. And as much of a Star Wars fan as I may be, even Star Wars isn't enough to make me enjoy mindless fragging.

 

I think what I'm looking for in a star wars game has yet to be made. I want the action of X-Wing Alliance and Jedi Outcast with the depth of an RPG, and I want to be able to do all this with hordes of people online. I'm looking ultimately for an MMORPG that has the ability to let you fight the way you do in Quake style games. And it's just not gonna happen with today's techonlogy. That or I want an RTCW/JK2 mod combining the best of both worlds: class-focuse, objective-oriented gameplay with a star wars flavor. Or better yet, the graphics and fluidity of JK2, the scope and variety of BF1942, and the streamlined play of RTCW. Again, it's just a pipe dream, I'm afraid. Maybe I'm getting too old for this stuff...

[Marker0077]

Well reading all of that took me awhile :-).

 

Anyways, it's good to get some feedback from you, especially considering that I am now getting into coding for the same very reason your not playing JK2 any more. I have done tons of code-like work in the past so, so far coding doesn't seem like it's going to be that tough to learn. I have tons of ideas for JK2, some of which have been used by other modding teams.

 

RPG needs to stay in single player I'm afraid though; Just because most people won't want to join a game to save up & buy something they can go anywhere else (or with any other game mode) & get for free, I just don't see it happening realistically. This is actually kinda funny because I just had this conversation not to long ago on the JK2Files.com forums.

 

Anyways, I am working on a mod of my own. I am hoping to add a couple of different gametypes, 1 of which being a multiple duel mode (like regular duel except multiple duels at the same time & in a tourny style), also something like ProMod, except with an objective mode (each class has their own objectives). So far the classes are Jedi, Sith, Bounty Hunter, & if I can get some modelers, Yuuzhan Vong (they're probably the biggest threat to the new Order of the Jedi as well as the New Republic). They use a staffs & they don't have the cells that allow force users (like Jedi/Sith) to manipulate them.

I'd like to also get some single player stuff in there also, but there's no single player source released so I don't know if that's going to happen. This whole thing is still in rough draft & I have some personaly problems that will more than likely need my immediate attention so all that may come of this is a bunch of cool ideas on a forums thread, but I have some well known JK2 coders willing to assist me in any way they can. I also used to be a team fortress player (the original, I don't play TFC - anyone who played the original team fortress will tell you TFC is NOT TEAM FORTRESS) so I am going to try & put in more classes than that. Hopefully something will come of this.

[razorace]

I suggest you join into one of the main mod camps if you're actually interested in getting something done. There's probably about 6 major Mods at this moment (in no particular order):

 

1. Promod

2. ForceMod

3. OmniMod/Jediplus

4. NJO Mod

5. AOTC TC

6. Masters of the Force

 

From your description, I'd recommend NJO. They're trying for roughly the same thing you want to do.

 

Razor Ace

 

BTW, that's interesting Episode III script you posted. It's almost certainly a fake (the Owen/Anakin relationship wasn't around til recently). But, other than that, it's sounds very accurate for something that Lucas would have done for a rough outline of Episode III.

[ArtifeX]

Originally posted by razorace

I don't know about that....Artifex was suppose to work with me on creating a Saga 2.0 after Promod Beta 3, but he hasn't contacted me yet.

 

Yes, sorry about that. I've been working hard on 3.1, which will fix some of the things that really bug me (bugs included) about version 3.0. I've got to get that out the door first, and I may include Saga 1.0 support with it so that I can familiarize myself with that section of the code before beginning any Saga 2.0 stuff.

[razorace]

no sweat, Artifex, I'm really busy finishing up Release 1 of MotF for a pre-Xmas release.

[Hekx]

I just downloaded and played the beta of Style of Substance, and I was quite disapointed..

 

I thought I'd left the silly 'jump on their head and knock them down' back in SP, after Desann repeaditly spammed the move. That's just a move waiting to be exploited, I can see it now: Bunny hopping runners who spam saber throw and head-jumping.

 

Changing kick to one jump seems like a good idea, but after learning and using double tap; it's made it pointless to change it.

 

The spinning DFA which has replaced the glorious DFA should be assigned to a new combination of keys not replacing the original DFA. I also dislike the idea of having the yellow stance being able to do a DFA; which rarely seems to happen unless *sigh* you have to have an opponent infront-of you.

 

I don't know what happened to all the force powers for light and dark; this is Star Wars not some Dragon Ball Z turn out.

 

I must admit I do like the Force Foresight; is't useful to slow down duels to help pin-point an area to strike or see when the opponents gaurd is down. I personally would like to see this added in with the other force powers; it should've been apart of the basejk2.

 

The force 'Safe Fall' does seem unique; and on lots os occassions I've fallen to far and lost HP, which can be a pain in the butt. I also liked the idea of being able to hit jump on the way down to trigger the force power.

 

It didn't seem like being able to sidekick of walls like in JediMod was possible. Either was there emotes or the TCK saber mod. I don't really mind if they're added; but they seem to add more fun to the dying JK2 game

 

The blue 'Flip Stab' move looks like a druken failed butterfly.(I've seen this animation used before to replace the butterfly; and all I can say is I don't like the animation at all)

 

I was unable to get 'Ledge Hanging' working... but alas, it seems like a very unique feature to add to JK2. I didn't try out the winning poses either; now I wish I had..

The 'call saber' by simply walking over it didn't work, so I guess that's still the same. Lose your saber = You're dead.

 

I wondered what happened to Saber Defense. Jedi need saber defense to deflect blaster shots. I remember the idea of manual blocking being mentioned, so maybe that can be implimented into the modification to make things more realistic.

 

The side roll animation I didn't like. I'd like to see maybe double tapping sideways to do a butterfly; while holding the direction causes you to roll; like the basejk2 version.

 

Also it seems the modification has been stuffed full of models / hilts and maps... Lovely.

Next thing you'll know SoS will become multi-version like the ever popular 'JediPlus'.

 

I would like to see more spinny-type moves for the yellow stance (like Obi-wan in EPII) and maybe give each of the stances a special each; but not overwriting the original specials animations or controls.

 

Overall Style over Substance has the potential to make JK2 a new game again.

 

----------------

[/rant][/review]

 

I just had to post my opinion about this modification due to some of the changes that have been made which I either disliked or liked. Kudos to the creators

[razorace]

I didn't realize that this was a SoS review thread.

 

anyway, there's some good reasons why all the slow down effects aren't in multiplayer.

 

1. The engine isn't design to do that sort of thing. It can cause serious lag, bugs, etc.

 

2. The SoS MP gameplay isn't currently set up for anything other than one-on-one fighting. With more than 2 players, you've got a huge number of gameplay issues to mess with. There's a reason why it hasn't been done yet.

[Hekx]

Originally posted by razorace

I didn't realize that this was a SoS review thread.

It'll have to be a full moon when I start a new thread, I've only ever posted about 3

 

I hope that the SoS beta version is tweaked more because I doubt I'd invest time in learning the combat system if it stays like it is

It's seems like no-one has any opinions against the current state of SoS on the site's forums.

[Solo4114]

Ok, so I've taken a little time to play more of ProMod. It's cool in a lot of ways, but I just don't see it really pulling me back into JK2. All I've really been doing is playing against the bots to get the hang of the mod itself, and it's starting to make more sense to me. That said, it doesn't really change any of the game modes. And the maps are all still just same ol' same ol'.

 

I think in terms of class based play, I'd prefer less of an open-ended format, and more of a limited format. IE: Bounty hunters get the jetpack, a blaster rifle, the bowcaster, and the flechette cannon; Troopers get a blaster rifle, the missile launcher, and the heavy repeater, but move slower than everyone else; Smugglers get a grappling hook, a blaster pistol, thermal detonators, a sniper rifle, and laser mines; etc., etc. You get the idea. I just like clear-cut classes. It just seems wrong to me to have jedi who can grab bacta tanks, laser rifles, and still whip out the ol' lightsabre. I think maybe a straight guns vs. sabre, either/or kind of relationship would be best, with sabres being able to slice through shields. THAT's something that should not be an issue. As it stands, you HAVE to spend points on gadgets level one or else you're at a SERIOUS disadvantage. I don't mind shields protecting against guns (gunners need some kind of anti gun protection), but a sabre should cut through that crap like a hot knife through butter.

 

Adding classes like this and then larger, more interesting CTF maps might make the game more fun, but I doubt that's gonna happen really.

 

As for the bugs in Promod, one thing I've noticed is that it seems the randomness is still there to a degree. I've done some swings and seen my sabre go right through an enemy's neck and not have it deal any damage (no sparks, no scream of pain, nothin'). Don't know if that's one of the bugs you meant, Art, or if you're thinking of other stuff.

 

Anyway, I think that this game died for me with the failure of 1.03. I'd had such high hopes for it, and in a large part, they were met, but then you had the ass fighters and the backstab whores and it all just went to hell. Raven never really figured out that having ultra powerful moves in the game means that they need to be balanced by having major negative effects (IE: what the current red style DFA does -- major damage if you hit, but MAJOR hole in defense if you miss). And in the end, the game just seems like running around frantically trying to slash the hell out of everything you see (or everyone on the other team that you see if you're playing team-based). It just lacks the purpose that I'm looking for I guess.

 

I mean, let's face it. Jedi don't just walk out somewhere and say, "Hey, Qui-Gon, you wanna go beat the crap out of some random stormtroopers today?" All of the movies had combat focusing around a purpose or a goal of some sort, usually a fairly lofty one. Playing games like BF1942 and RTCW, your i ndividual game goals aren't terribly lofty, but it's set against the backdrop of a major and important conflict. I don't get that sense from JK2's multiplayer at all and maybe that's what I'm missing. It's just grab your sabre, maybe a missile launcher or something, and go frag some 1337 H4X0R d00d on the net. Rah rah. >yawn<

[ryudom]

i usually fight duels, sometimes ffa, but i don't see the goal as killing people. i would have stoped playing the game soon after it came out had that been the case. rather, i have goals differant when i play. i see not kills, but skills. (hehe). ignore that lol. anyway, i play to get better, and thats really fun for me.

 

saga gametypes should be out soon, theres one out for anchorhead which seems REALLY cool, if only people would play. even then, i wouldn't play to much, because like i said, i play so i can improve.

[razorace]

eeerrr....Saga is already in the basejk2 game. The problem is getting people to make maps for it.

[Solo4114]

What exactly IS this "saga" game type? Do you play over a series of maps that have a theme or something? Do you play co-op against the computer? What?

[Walwi Makno]

Isn't Saga like a team based game where each team has different objectives?

[ArtifeX]

The Saga gametype is an objective based gametype where the maps contain certain goals for each team to accomplish. Red team might have to make it to a control room somewhere and turn off a tractor beam by pushing a button, whereas the Blue team would have to defend that same button. This is an extremely simple example, as maps can have multiple objectives and can even force teams to do the objectives in a certain order.

 

Saga support is on the way for Promod. I've got to wrap up the rest of the bugs/balance issues from 3.0, and then I'll be releasing 3.1. After that's out there and running smoothly, I'll be working specifically on Saga support and getting some new Saga maps made. I've yet to try out the Anchorhead map myself, but will be certain to include it in a Promod Media Pack when the support for it is there.

[razorace]

Currently the Saga code is very basic and has several bugs. Artifex, me, and whoever else, are going to try to fix and upgrade the system to something more useable.