Katarn07 Posted January 20, 2003 Share Posted January 20, 2003 No, this is all wrong. Luke is just short and looked awkward in the armor. You are right about the height thing. That is exactly what she was implying... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reb Starblazer Posted January 26, 2003 Share Posted January 26, 2003 Originally posted by lukeiamyourdad ask him to say it clearly once and for all that clonetroopers and stormtroopers are the same or not. And make it totally clear! Originally said by George Lucas Starlog Magazine: Boba and Jango Fett have important roles in the "Attack of the Clones". Were they in your original backstory, or is their involvement the result of Boba's incredible popularity? GL: Boba had a connection to stormtroopers. I sort of built him out of the stormtroopers, and I knew stormstroopers were clones. Exactly what that relationship was I hadn't really established yet. I knew Boba was a clone, but I didn't know how all of that fit together. I knew that the clones were made out of a bounty hunter, and when I got to this story, I thought "Well, gee, the best bounty hunter is Boba Fett. And rather than him maybe being a clone, he could be the originator of the clones." Most of the pieces were there, but I actually put them all together in this one. AOTC DVD Commentary: GL: It wasn't until I started working on this script that I decided to make Boba the son of the Original Clone. Before he was just another clone who was for whatever reason had sort of broken loose from the stormtroopers. I didn't really go into detail at that point, even in my mind or in the backstory about any more of it other than that they were connected but early on the stormtroopers were meant to be clones. AOTC DVD Commentary: GL: Throughout as we go through the movie there's all little funny moments like Jango bumping his head because in Star Wars one of the stormtroopers bumps his head on the door as they leave the control room on the Death Star and I thought wouldn't it be funny if that's a trait that Jango has. When he puts his helmet on and everything he can't really see that well and so he's constantly bumping his head and that trait gets cloned into all the stormtroopers and that's why they keep bumping their heads. Read it and weep boys:D These are direct quotes from George Lucas during an interview with StarLog magazine, and also ones taken directly from the AOTC DVD commentary. Stormtroopers are clones, and GL always intended them to be. So once again, EU gets crapped upon by the movies. *insert evil laugh here* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keiran Halcyon Posted January 27, 2003 Share Posted January 27, 2003 Well then. One thing does not fit. The officers ARE NOT CLONES, and you have to be a soldier first. Mayve new recruits have an special training (as troopers) and they are the ones who advance ranks... but in EPII there are clone comanders and so... I thought they made clones because they are better than droids and i also thought they used real humans because they were better than clones... I believe Lucas had the main plot of the new trilogy in his mind years ago, but i think he has changed it a little while writting it. So things that he let be writen were true years ago and now they are not You know if the Troopers are clones, that is a VERY important thing, so why he would let the writters so loose with that? Well as long as the movies are not contradicted by themeselves, i'm fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter james Posted January 27, 2003 Share Posted January 27, 2003 is Kyle Katarn a clone then ?? wasnt he an imp. before he went merc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reb Starblazer Posted January 27, 2003 Share Posted January 27, 2003 Officers are often trained different than the regular "grunts", even in the armies of today. While everyone starts out as the same rank, once they complete thier Basic Military Qualifications, and also complete their Requisite courses, which often take no less than six months, and then they have another 6 months of experience, they become a ranking officer. You can also work your way up from the bottom of course, but I believe it works differently in the Imperial Navy. Officers are trained specifically, as the StormTroopers are there for cannon fodder, and there is no need for anyone else to fill that position. Just like the Imperial commandos which are seen on the Death Star. They don't all look alike. These are most likely low ranking officers, such as lieutenants and lieutenant commanders. The clones are used specifically for StormTroopers, as they are more "expendable". And yes, Kyle Katarn was once an Imperial, but he's not a clone. He was part of a Special Operations unit, and therefore most likely started out as an officer, but was selected to recieve training and become a part of that unit. Just because the StormTroopers are clones, doesn't mean the rest of the Imperial navy can't function properly after all. It just ensures that there's always a steady supply of troops for the Empire to use, and of course, targets for rebels to shoot at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 The Stormtroopers are merely for frontline use. They don't care if they die or not as long as the jobs gets done. So if they are clones they are even more expendible as there is an endless supply of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 The Stormtroopers are merely for frontline use. They don't care if they die or not as long as the jobs gets done. So if they are clones they are even more expendible as there is an endless supply of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katarn07 Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 Originally posted by peter james is Kyle Katarn a clone then ?? wasnt he an imp. before he went merc. No, he's not. And for those EU people like me, stormtroopers are both clones and recruits. They gotta be! I mean, in the movies, there are to many flaws for them to all be clones!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Rive Posted January 31, 2003 Share Posted January 31, 2003 Originally posted by Katarn07: But if it transforms a guy that looks like Jango to a British guy... Jeez! Oi!!! Temuera Morrison is from New Zealand, not bloody Britain!!! Originally posted by Reb Starblazer: Officers are trained specifically, as the StormTroopers are there for cannon fodder, and there is no need for anyone else to fill that position. Yeah, but notice how when all they had was clones in the Clone War scenes in Episode II, some clones were designated Commander etc, so they are fully capable of fighting, planning and thinking independantly and creatively, as Taun We said on Kamino. They are essentially cannon fodder, yes, but there is no real reason for human conscripts as officers other than to replace fallen clones. BTW, did anyone else think that in the scene with all the clones sitting at the table and eating their food, they looked more like Captain Typho than Jango Fett ??? If they're clones, why not get Temuera Morrison to play them? Surely the meaning of the word "clone" means "identical copy derived from an original version" ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reb Starblazer Posted January 31, 2003 Share Posted January 31, 2003 Actually, I think Katarn_07 meant the Stormtroopers in the Original Trilogy, not the clones. They did sound somwhat british. Also, they chose that person to play the clones, as they said he looked what Jango would have looked like at 20, without all the scars and battle damage. However, the funnier thing to notice, is that the clone is holding a fork and a knife... with a BOWL in front of him:D AND to add to that fact, THERE'S NOTHING IN THE BOWL! Maybe food deprivation is how they coerce the clones into attacking, "Alright jim bob 421, if you go out and destroy 10 droids today, you get to eat.":p and for more serious discussion. Originally posted by Darth_Rive:When all they had was clones in the Clone War scenes in Episode II This essentially answers your question in a way. They only had clones, which is why some were trained for command, they needed some for command purposes and yoinked a few from the batch. But even these officers were only lieutenants and commanders, still low ranking officers at best. As soon as they are put into action, what's the first thing they do? They start taking orders from the Jedi. They take orders from Yoda, and later, they all split up into separate squadrons all led by Jedi. General Kenobi sound familiar? They clones are led by the Jedi in the clone war. The Clones are made to take orders, it's part of their genetic structure as Taun We said, it's their entire purpose. Sure they can be trained somewhat, and learn to command their own squads(which is what Lt's and Cmdr's do generally), but as for actual higher ranking officers I highly doubt they could fill that position. Sure they can do fine in their own little squads, but when it comes down to it the clones are meant to be ordered around by someone else, even the Lieutenants and Commanders, that's what they're made for. Also, You can send a somewhat limited clone into battle, or you could send a high potential person into battle. That person that you just sent off to die may have become the next great military leader if he had lived, but that clone is just a clone, just like every other one in your army, identical in every single way to the other billion or more Stormtroopers. So who do you send off to die? That's why I believe clones are used for cannon fodder as they're plentiful and expendable, and the actual highly trained, high potential, free thinking people are used to command the clones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tie Guy Posted January 31, 2003 Share Posted January 31, 2003 Starblazer, you're not making any sense. Clones are humans, pure and simple. They aren't inferior in any way save that they are more loyal and don't disobey, which is hardly a bad thing. They aren't any less "free thinking" than humans, they aren't programmed to complete certain tasks, they are just completely loyal. All that means is that they follow orders without question, which is exactly what you want in all army personel, officer and soldier. Just because they don't question orders doesn't mean they can't think for themselves, just that they are too loyal to voice it. If you told them to come up with a plan then they would, it most likely it would a lot better than the average guy's off the street that you trained. Really, they are superior to the average human because they are clones of Jango Fett. Now, who would you want to command your army? A trained and completely loyal above average clone, or an average guy you trained who is a normal person and not neccessarily very corageous or loyal. I'll take the clone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katarn07 Posted January 31, 2003 Share Posted January 31, 2003 Stormie actors and officers are British. That is what I meant... And if any of you have read the Pagian Tradeoff in the Insider, you'll think clones are a bit inferior... The ones in the story (Tooth, Hash, and the bunch) were different. Modified to think more independently... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reb Starblazer Posted February 1, 2003 Share Posted February 1, 2003 I'll do my best to try and word this as simply as possible this time. Clones are humans, pure and simple. No, they aren't. They are genetically modifed humans which means they aren't humans pure and simple they are different than humans because of the genetic modifications, they are made to follow orders without question at all. In order to see all the sides of something, you have to question it. What you're doing right now is questioning what I'm saying, seeing it from different angles, and giving me another opinion, something Stormtroopers are not supposed to do. If by some small chance a clone came up with a better plan than it's commander, it wouldn't say it, because it's too stu..., er loyal:D This limits what they will do or say, and also limits them. They are trained, bred and raised to follow orders, not give them(as stated earlier, even the highest ranked clones are still rather low ranked). Officers are trained to think out situations and plans, see things from all sides and tell the Stormtroopers(clones) what to do. Now equally, the clones could possibly be trained to do this as well, but officers are most definitely trained extensively and differently than then clones, and though they may have to follow orders, they are able to question them and suggest alternatives, which the Stormtroopers are not supposed to do. The Empire wants an army that will do it's bidding without a second thought, are easily expendable, and are in limitless supply. Clones fit into all of these catgories average guy's off the street that you trained. First, the fact of the matter is if you're an Imperial Officer, you're not an average guy. You are the elite of the elite. Only the best and brightest are even accepted into an officer's academy, then you're highly trained for a year at the very least(if not more) and if you're a high ranking officer, you've also got years of experience to add to it. Stormtrooper's don't often live long enough to gain any experience:D Stormtroopers are most likely trained only in weapons usage and tactics. They don't need to learn any more, they're only cannon fodder after all. Officers are highly trained in many different disciplines, because they need to be. They are the ones who order the cannon fodder and other officers around, so they need to be as highly trained as possible so that they can effectively control and manage the Imperial Navy. Also, while the Stormtroopers may be just cannon fodder, the Empire does want them to be used effectively and kept alive if possible. The Empire can of course just make replacements, but they don't WANT to if they don't HAVE to. As for the whole Jango Fett and superior line, I won't really get into that. This thread is about Clonetroopers/Stormtroopers after all, so I won't bring how much I loathe the Fett's into this. I do see where you're coming from though, and I respect your opinions, it's just that mine differs from yours. I'm trying to prove why I believe they used clones for Stormtroopers but "regular" humans for Officers, and for why I think it makes sense for the Empire to do this. Awaiting your reply Tie Guy, been a long time since I've been involved in a good, decent debate that didn't degenerate into other people responding with senseless flames . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tie Guy Posted February 1, 2003 Share Posted February 1, 2003 Wrong. Genetically modified humans are still humans, you can't possibly say that they aren't, though i did say that they were completely obiedient. Now, if you'll watch the movies then you will see that come of the clones are actually giving orders. Wait, that would them thinking tactically, would it? Yoda tells the trooper to attack the starships, the clone then takes that and formulates tactics and logistics to making it work. Is that thinking for himself? Yes. He is choosing the target, he is ordering the other troopers to move, he is ordering them to fire. He is acting on orders, and he always will, but that does NOT mean that he cannot, or does not think for himself. Officers are not meant to question orders. Think about it, if you gave your officer an order and you said, "well, this isn't a good idea so i'm not going to do it," that would be very bad. and, in the empire at least, if you told a superior you weren't going to follow his order because you had a better idea you'd probably be demoted, or killed. No, officers are supposed to take orders and formulate the best possible course of action to get the order done. They are NOT meant to question orders, but that is not the same as not thinking for themselves. Both clones and regular humans can do that. So you say that officers are the elite, but clones are the elite of the elite. They take the best possible person and clone him, making lots of the best possible persons. So how can you get any better? Sure, a very small few may be better, but overall the clones are the best you can get. So how can you possibly say that normal people are always better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reb Starblazer Posted February 1, 2003 Share Posted February 1, 2003 I think you may be going a little too literally into my post Tie Guy. I don't recall ever saying that the Stormtroopers couldn't think tactically or for themselves, but more that they're not encouraged to think for themselves. The were genectically modified to be completely obedient for a reason after all. The Empire doesn't want a few billion Stormtroopers who are constantly sent into dangerous and life threatening situations to have free will, as they might turn against the empire itself. Their's is not to question why, their's is but to do and die. That is their purpose, the Stormtroopers are cannon fodder. An army of faceless enemies who look identical, you shoot one, and 2 more take it's place. The point here is the same point I've been making all along, Stormtroopers are created for a specific purpose, with specific training, and are made to be completely obedient. They are the cannon fodder, they are the peons, they are grunts. They are meant to be sent into battle and die, so that you don't have to. And as such, you make them so that they don't have the freedom of choice to decide whether or not they will. By giving the clones the ability to question(think about) orders, you're giving them that freedom of choice, which is why the clones training, free thinking, and quite possibly intelligence, are limited by the Empire. Officers are meant to follow orders, but they can also question them and think of better ways. I agree that if you told your C.O. "well, this isn't a good idea so i'm not going to do it" sure he'd court martial you or shoot you on the spot. But if you told your C.O. "Sir, I've got an another idea, would you care to listen to it?" he, like most officers, would probably listen. And if he didn't agree with your idea and wanted to stick with his original plan, then you'd go along with it and follow his original orders, even though you had once questioned them. When I say question, I mean "consider" or "think about", not "disobey". The thing with the Stormtroopers is that they are so loyal and obedient that they wouldn't even consider anything else, they would immediately follow the exact orders word for word without a second thought. Loyalty is good. Blind loyalty is not. Officers most likely receive drastically different training than Stormtroopers, and this combined with their free will, differences, and experiences are in my mind what would make them superior to StormTroopers for command positions. Every clone is exactly alike, it is raised the same way, it is trained the same way, it has the same strengths and weaknesses as every other one, and as such makes the Stormtroopers very homogenous. Officers however, are humans who come from hundreds of different worlds and backgrounds with different experiences which make them all very unique. That's the key. Whereas the Clones are all identical in every single way and are in that way limited to a certain type of thinking, a certain type of tactics, certain aptitudes and faults, the officers are all different. Do you think a random clone that is identical in every single way to the others could somehow become as smart as Tarkin, or Piett, or that really smart blue guy(Thrawn I think?) all of a sudden? I personally don't. Officers are meant to be the thinkers of the Empire, the Stormtroopers are meant to be the ones who blindly follow orders. Having officers blindly follow orders without so much as a second thought or another possibility would be ludicrus. Even in the army of today officers are encouraged to think of all possibilities but they still have to follow orders once they're given, and commanding officers are encouraged to listen, consider all options, and decide what's best. It's the differences between people that make us strong after all, having everyone exactly the same would not only be very boring, but also very unprogressive. These are the reasons why I believe they decided to use clones for Stormtroopers, but not to use them for Officers. That is what I've been saying, not who is outright better, or outright superior, but rather who is more suited for what. And for your last thing, no, I didn't actually say officers are the elite, but clones are the elite of the elite. I actually said that Officers are the Elite of the Elite, not the clones. The Officers are the best and brightest the galaxy has to offer, while the Stormtroopers are clones of Jango Fett for god's sake! The clones are best suited for what they do, and as Jango said "they'll do their job well", which is to be cannon fodder(which might I add, IN MY OPINION is all any of the Fett's are good for:D), but I don't think they're the best suited for a command position. Now I re-iterate your question to you; Who would you want to use as cannon fodder? An army of completly loyal and unquestioning clones who are identical in every way, are no better or worse than any other clone, and willing to die for you at any time, or an army of loyal but sometimes questioning people who are all different, all have different strengths and weaknesses, all have the potential to be someone great, all offer varying ideas, and are all willing to die for you but would rather not? I'll take the clones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tie Guy Posted February 1, 2003 Share Posted February 1, 2003 Alright, first of all, clones are NOT identical in every single way as you say they are. Sure, they have the same genetic structure and therefore same physical appearence and attriubutes, but that is a very far cry from being identical. Upbringing, or in this case training, are what determine the abilities. Sure, the soldiers are trained to fight and therefore most of them have the same abilities, but the Officers of the group have much different training, and therefore are completely different from the normal clonetrooper. Second, maybe you aren't understanding me about this elite thing. Ok, officers are elite people, sure, the elite of the elite, alright. But they will never be as good as clones because clones are the absolute pinnacle. Why? Because if they weren't then they wouldn't be made into a template. Therefore, on average, a clone will be far superior to any regular human. Note, i'm not neccessarily talking about the clones of Jango Fett, just clone officers in general. Clones CAN think creatively, which means they can invent tactics, formulate strategies, and think for themselves. The only thing they don't do is disobey or question authority. What in the world is wrong with that? Nothing. Maybe you don't know about the army, but you simply do not question authority unless asked your opinion. If you do, even if its a suggestion, the chain of command falls apart and the army can't function to the fullest. Its the same way with clones. Just because they don't question authority doesn't mean they can't or they don't think for themselves, because they do. But you're right about the free thinking thing being limited by the Empire. Of course, because, like i said, if you give people the ability to question orders, then the entire chain of command falls apart. that goes for officers as well as soldiers. Really, clones would be exactly like the very best of the officers, only they would be completely loyal. They would never defect to the Alliance or go AWOL. Now tell how that can possibly be worse than if they could? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thrackan Solo Posted February 1, 2003 Share Posted February 1, 2003 Ahhh but clones dont think about morals and etiquette they do what there masters tell them to without question, they also never retreat from overwhelming odds. :trooper: :trooper: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reb Starblazer Posted February 1, 2003 Share Posted February 1, 2003 Upbringing, or in this case training, are what determine the abilities That is exactly my point Tie Guy. If every single Stormtrooper has the same attributes, was brought up in the exact same way, with the exact same training, the exact same experiences, the exact same everything, would this not make them exactly alike? If not, they would be still incredibly similar though. The way people think and the things they think about are mostly not determined by genetics, but by their experiences and what they've learned. I never said that clones couldn't be used as officers, just that they obviously aren't. They could be yes, but in order for them to be effective officers, they would all have to have different experiences and thought patterns. At the moment, Stormtroopers are all taught the exact same thing, every stormtrooper knows exactly the same as every other one. In the 10 years or so they've been alive, they have only known training, the exact same training as every other clone, they only know what they've been taught/shown, nothing more. It's the same as everyone else, we only know what we are taught/shown, it's just that the Stormtroopers have been taught very little, and only about certain things. So even if they decided to use clones as officers, they couldn't teach them all the EXACT same things. They'd be just like the Stormtroopers, a billion or so people who only know what they've been taught. Whereas "regular" people are all diverse, all know different things, and all think differently about different things. Sure clones can think creatively, never said they couldn't. It's just that they can ONLY think about what they know, the same as everyone else. Now if you've got 1 billion people who only know the same things, no matter how creatively they can think, they can only think about what they know. This severly limits them compared to a billion people, all with different knowledge, who can think about a diverse range of topics. Clones could be used as officers, but they would have to be trained and treated vastly different than they are. As for loyalty, the clones are 100% loyal. Aboslute loyatly means that they will do EXACTLY what you say, without giving it a second thought. And without giving it a second thought, they won't come up with a better idea no? If you told them to come up with a plan, sure, they could. But as stated earlier, seeing as clones are all trained exactly the same, and all know the same things about the same topics, the ideas they come up with would all be limited. Creative thinking is obviously creative, but it in itself is still limited to what you know. "Regular" people know different things as they were all trained differently and all had different experiences throughout their life that makes them diverse, unlike the Stormtroopers. Now one way to make the clones more creative is to give them a greater amount of knowledge, and to make them all diverse. This however, defeats the purpose of the Empire having a clone army that are all identical and all disposable. Making the clones more creative makes them more valuable, and they won't be sacrificed quite as easily. Which is why they keep the clones, for lack of a better word, dumb. This way they can just send them off to die without a second thought. Also, instead of spending the money to raise a clone officer for 10 years, train it immensely and differently from all the others, they could just take a regular, but still very bright individual who is already VERY smart, VERY creative, and VERY different from every other officer, and put it through an academy for 2 years instead of 10. Having every clone trained identically means that only one training program has to be divised and instituted, instead of many, which saves time, manpower, and money. The major point I'm getting at here, is that while Clones/Stormtroopers CAN think creatively, they are still somewhat limited by their experiences and knowledge, which limits how creatively they think. Regular people have vastly different knowledge, vastly different experiences, and vastly different aptitudes, unlike clones, who are all good at physical abilities, but perhaps lack skill in math, or physics(just examples). But different people all have different aptitudes, some may be good at math, while others may be very stratigically minded. These strengths in people make up for the faults in people, where clones who are identically trained all have the same strengths and weaknesses, so there is no balance. DIVERSITY is what makes people strong and effective, not being drilled with the exact same training as everyone else. I'm looking beyond the loyalty matter here, as absolute loyalty is only useful if your troops are too stupid to do anything but shoot and die, which is exactly what the stormtroopers are used for. I'm looking at the actual intelligence value of using people who are exactly alike as officers, officers that are supposed to be able to think up many different plans and situations but can't do so because they have very limited knowledge, limited because of the identical training and lives they all have. This problem is solved by using "real" people who all have a varying degree of knowledge about a diverse range of topics. Clones COULD be trained like this, but it's just so much simpler for the Empire to use regular people as Officers, and "dumb" clones as cannon fodder. I think we're trying to make two different cases here. It seems you're trying to prove clones are superior in every way, I'm only trying to rationalize not who's superior, but why they decided to not make the entire army clones, as they obviously could have, and why they thought that using "real" humans as officers would be better than using clones as officers. What it all comes down to is diversity of ideas, experiences, and tactics. Sure, if they could find a way to have all the clones really, really extensively trained, all incredibly different, and with their loyalty lowered somewhat so they'll have an open mind about things instead of blindly and instantly following orders, they certainly could serve as officers, if they were treated like "normal" people. But the Empire would rather just keep them limited, keep them identical, and keep them expendable. That's the way I see it anyway. I know this debate will never change your opinion, and let it be known that I don't want to change it and have no intention of doing so, as this debate is in fact a good example of how different people think differently. If we both thought the exact same way, then we'd be like how the Stormtroopers are, unthinking and "loyal". I'm simply stating my ideas, and you're stating yours, and that gives us both a better understanding, a respect for each other's ideas if you will. So what do you say we just agree to disagree about this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vegietto Posted February 1, 2003 Share Posted February 1, 2003 clonetroopers are different from the stormies the clones ares clones and the stormtrooper arer real men in armor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tie Guy Posted February 1, 2003 Share Posted February 1, 2003 Starblazer, you aren't listening, and you aren't understanding what i'm saying, and its getting really annoying because we are just going in circles. End of debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naphtali Posted February 2, 2003 Share Posted February 2, 2003 One theory could be that the Kaminos no longer have the source Jango so the empire may need more in the future but those clones stormtroopers end up having a lot of defects and more imbalance thinking traits. Voices don't matter im sure that from different travels to different planets their have been changes with those that survived. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jed Posted February 2, 2003 Share Posted February 2, 2003 Good point Reb.... Clones would be a hell of a lot better. *wants some clones of his own...* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Rive Posted February 2, 2003 Share Posted February 2, 2003 OK guys, sorry this post was so long out of the loop - forgot I'd posted on this board... Just read through all your posts, and here's what I thought as I went through. Orginally posted by Reb Starblazer: "Actually, I think Katarn_07 meant the Stormtroopers in the Original Trilogy, not the clones. They did sound somwhat british." No they don't! "These aren't the droids we're looking for" couldn't have sounded any more american if it tried! Nor could "Hey, did you hear something?" or "Blast him!" or "Stop rebel scum!" or "open the blast doors! Open the blast doors!"... I cold go on for ages here, but I won't. Watch them again, you'll see the error of your ways... Orginally posted by Reb Starblazer: "As soon as they are put into action, what's the first thing they do? They start taking orders from the Jedi." That's because the clones form the "grand Army of the Republic" as Supreme Chancellor Palpatine put it, and the Jedi are effectively the FBI of the Republic, so they're essentially second-in-command to the Supreme Chancellor. Originally posted by Katarn07: "Stormie actors and officers are British. That is what I meant..." Imperial officers, yes. Stormies, naaa heeeeeeells no! Originally posted by Reb Starblazer: "If by some small chance a clone came up with a better plan than it's commander, it wouldn't say it, because it's too stu..., er loyal This limits what they will do or say, and also limits them." Not so. If you listen to what Taun We said, they're all able to think creatively, which means that they could come up with plans and would most probably all come up with the same plan to be fair, seeing as they're clones.... And if not, they would definitely voice it to the commanding officer. Besides which, chances are, the Commanders and Lieutenants would be able to come up with plans themselves, because, as you yourself said, the select few would be taken aside and given extra traning to be able to lead a batallion or whatever, so this means that they would be taught battle tactics, otherwise there'd be no point sending them in to get massacred other than to deplete the enemies' weapon charge cells... Don't get me wrong, I do see your point that the Empire would want soldiers that wouldn't come back unless the job was done, but at the same time if they all get killed within the first three minutes in the open, there'd be no point sending them in the first place. They'd just give the seperatists/rebellion more hope that they were a pushover to defeat. Originally posted by Reb Starblazer: "Stormtroopers are most likely trained only in weapons usage..." Have you even watched the OT? LOL! They couldn't don a space suit, stand on the wing of the Shuttle Tyderium in space with a Blaster Rifle and hit the Death Star! Originally posted by Reb Starblazer: "By giving the clones the ability to question(think about) orders, you're giving them that freedom of choice, which is why the clones training, free thinking, and quite possibly intelligence, are limited by the Empire." It's not so much that they're thinking about the moral issues of their orders or the danger involved in what they've been ordered to do, or anything like that, more that they are assessing the risks involed to the team and mission , and are then thinking about how to work around them. Originally posted by Tie Guy: "...but you simply do not question authority unless asked your opinion. If you do, even if its a suggestion, the chain of command falls apart and the army can't function to the fullest." This is a really good point, not something that I'd thought about. Originally posted by Reb Starblazer: "Now if you've got 1 billion people who only know the same things, no matter how creatively they can think, they can only think about what they know. This severly limits them compared to a billion people, all with different knowledge, who can think about a diverse range of topics." Yes, this is true, but it's also what makes them a far more effective unit in a battle. If they all think the same way, then they all know the plans and tactics. Whereas an army of a billion individuals would be able to come up with many more creative plans in a battle based on their own personal experiences, a billion clones would immediately know what all the rest of their group was doing and would result in far more effective and eficient manoeuvres on the battlefield. Thinking about it now, the creative thinking side of things for the CloneTroopers really only comes into play fully in instances like for example, when the Federation Starship crash-landed and created the huge dust-storm. It is at this point, when the clones are effectively cut off from their commanders that they use their ability to think creatively and continue to advance as their orders have dictated. Orignally posted by Reb Starblazer: "DIVERSITY is what makes people strong and effective, not being drilled with the exact same training as everyone else." People, yes, but not an army. As I said before, each solider in an army must be able to know and understand what the soldier next to him is trying to achieve and how he's thinking, and by having a wide range of people with all their various ways of thinking, it dumbs down tehir ability to act as a single unit. Originally posted by Naphtali: "One theory could be that the Kaminos no longer have the source Jango...." They didn't need Jango around any more, since they had already taken the sample of his DNA and were replicating it to produce the clone army. Anyway, folks, this is turning out to be a really interesting discussion here. Oi loiks 'at, oi does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reb Starblazer Posted February 3, 2003 Share Posted February 3, 2003 Originally posted by Darth_Rive Have you even watched the OT? LOL! They couldn't don a space suit, stand on the wing of the Shuttle Tyderium in space with a Blaster Rifle and hit the Death Star! Ah yes, but that's because in the OT, they're shooting at the good guys, which means they have to have crappy aim. Did you happen to notice how quickly those Stormtroopers took out those non-important Rebels while boarding the Tantive IV at the beginning of A New Hope? This is their real ability, as long as they aren't shooting at anyone important of course:D Originally posted by Darth_Rive Yes, this is true, but it's also what makes them a far more effective unit in a battle. If they all think the same way, then they all know the plans and tactics. Whereas an army of a billion individuals would be able to come up with many more creative plans in a battle based on their own personal experiences, a billion clones would immediately know what all the rest of their group was doing and would result in far more effective and eficient manoeuvres on the battlefield. I believe we're both touching on this point in the same way Rive, at least somewhat. As you said, it makes them more effective on the battlefield. I have no doubts that the clones are very good at what they do, which is being an elite military unit. Because they are all trained the exact same way with the same knowledge, they make very good soldiers, but this also detracts from them making very good officers, if you see my distinction. Diversity of ideas between officers would yield a wide range of combat strategies and tactics, thus making these officers more effective than a group of identically trained clones that don't think very diversely. Now of course, as I've said numerous times before, if they trained clones differently, gave them all different experiences and backgrounds than each other, they'd make fine officers. But it's just easier for the Empire to take people who already have varying knowledge and ideas, and use the clones as a totally loyal and expendable army for frontline use. See what I mean? Originally posted by Darth_Rive Thinking about it now, the creative thinking side of things for the CloneTroopers really only comes into play fully in instances like for example, when the Federation Starship crash-landed and created the huge dust-storm. It is at this point, when the clones are effectively cut off from their commanders that they use their ability to think creatively and continue to advance as their orders have dictated. Yep, and if the clones had thought twice about it and not followed their orders to the letter, they would have realized that causing that large a ship to drop from that height would inevitably cause a HUGE dust storm:D Instead, they just went ahead with it and look what happened. Ok, maybe this point is a bit too literal, but once again, you get the idea. Originally posted by Darth_Rive People, yes, but not an army. As I said before, each solider in an army must be able to know and understand what the soldier next to him is trying to achieve and how he's thinking, and by having a wide range of people with all their various ways of thinking, it dumbs down tehir ability to act as a single unit. It sure does, which is exactly why the Empire trains their frontline troops like they do, so they all think of the same tactics and ideas, and are used effectively as an army. But Officers don't really need to act as a true purely single unit like the troops do, they are supposed to be cohesive obviously, but not to the extent that a group of identical clones would be, or would need to be. The Officers are the ones who pass the commands down to the Stormtroopers, and as such should be able to come up with a wide variety of tactics and strategies for the Stormtroopers to use. Once again, diversity of ideas and knowledge. I do somewhat agree with Tie Guy's statement about the chain of command, because yes, the chain of command is only as strong as it's weakest link. But disobeying orders and coming up with a suggestion and passing it along to your superior officer are two entirely different things. Hell, that's how people become officers, they stand out amongst the others, show that they have potential to lead and plan, that they are more than just the average grunt. Some of the people who became known as the greatest military minds are the ones who spoke up and said "Uh, sir... I've got an idea that might work better. Would you care to hear it?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Rive Posted February 3, 2003 Share Posted February 3, 2003 Originally posted by Reb Starblazer: Did you happen to notice how quickly those Stormtroopers took out those non-important Rebels while boarding the Tantive IV at the beginning of A New Hope? I think you're missing the crucial point here - they were having a shootout IN A CORRIDOR. There was nowhere else for their shots to go! Originally posted by Reb Starblazer: Yep, and if the clones had thought twice about it and not followed their orders to the letter, they would have realized that causing that large a ship to drop from that height would inevitably cause a HUGE dust storm[/i] Yeah, you'd think a bloody Jedi Master would have been able to foresee that too, wouldn't you... Originally posted by Reb Starblazer: Hell, that's how people become officers, they stand out amongst the others, show that they have potential to lead and plan, that they are more than just the average grunt. Which kinda raises the point, did any clones ever get promoted to a higher rank, and if so, how? Surely if they all think the same things in the same way, there's no way any of them can show the drive or ability to lead a command. It must have meant that none of the clones (that managed to survive long enough) had any promotion prospects at all. Don't you think that seeing as they were lones of Jango after all, they might want some kind of thanks or reward at some point? I mean, ok, so we know that they were modified in some ways, and I assume that jango's more defining characteristics were removed, there's no telling i they managed to remove all of it. They might just get a niggling feeling in the back of their minds every so often that something was missing, something was wrong... We'll never know unless it's clarified in Ep III. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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