Dagobahn Eagle Posted February 10, 2003 Author Share Posted February 10, 2003 a) USA is backing Israel. Israel has taken up Palestine's land. Palestine is Muslim country As one of the people who hates the Israeli govt. for occupying Israel and massacring Palestinians, I can't disagree with them (except I don't kill Americans for it ). Far from all muslims in the Middle East are militant. Say what you want, but most muslims hate what Bin Laden did. Pssst.. that's what he said ---------- If Iraq is captured, let Sweden or Britain or Germany or Russia or someone else install a new government, not the United States. The US government is good, yes, but is it the best for third-world countries that barely have gained independence? Shouldn't a govt. in such a country be a bit stronger, although democratic? Oh, and will the people of Iraq be able to vote for what kind of democracy they are going to have (as in Republic, Right-Wing Democracy, Social Democracy, Constitutional Monarchy...) Don't think so. Liberated countries, when liberated by the USA, have to sign a ton of American-decided rules, regulations, and contracts. Also, I'm not sure if the US Democracy is such a good system anymore. Case of point: 9/11. Two memorial statues were attempted built: One in a fire station and one.. somewhere else, can't remember where. Both were censored as 'politically incorrect' and 'against American ideas'. Imagine the outrage in the USA if Russia censored a statue in remembrance of the assault on the Moscow theatre.. or Germany, in remembrance of the people who died in the Holocaust. God, you'd have cried nazis and communism all over the place, wouldn't you? But head down to a bookstore, and you'll find the writings of Marx and Hitler ('My Struggle'/'Mein Kampf') for sale there just like any other book. "Sure, they're controversial, but we're a democracy"! Yay.. Sure, legalize the writings of this guy who killed 6 000 000+ people without thinking about the millions of Eurasians and Jews in the USA. But for gods sake, no Free Artistry when creating memorial statues! Someone's feelings might be hurt . Then, just to add it, when Eurasia complains about the war in the USA, Rumsfield divides the countries into "old" and "new" Eurasia... "Sure, we should invade. Eurasia is in favour of the war! ...Except from those people in the old Eurasia, but they aren't worth listening to anyway." There's democracy for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Odin Posted February 10, 2003 Share Posted February 10, 2003 I wasn't going to post in this thread because I don't really see a need to repeat myself over and over again. Reason why Some Muslims hate the US: 1. We support Israel 2. Our way of life (ie fair treatment of women ect.) 3. The fact that we are not all Muslims 4. Their leaders have made us appear as devils incarnate 5. If they kill infidels they automatically go to heave, we are convinetly labled as infidels. The list can go on and on. Now onto the thing that made me post: The "US shouldn't police the world" My god, if the US didn't police the world you would be complaining that we should. If we didn't police the world then you can beat that Enthic Cleansing (aka Genecide) would continue in Bosnia and Kosovo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagobahn Eagle Posted February 10, 2003 Author Share Posted February 10, 2003 My god, if the US didn't police the world you would be complaining that we should. If we didn't police the world then you can beat that Enthic Cleansing (aka Genecide) would continue in Bosnia and Kosovo. Ditto. Case of point: China, which we did nothing to prevent from falling to the Red Army. Seems that no matter what the US Army does, it's wrong, as the "lack of policing" in China is also the reason for hatred against the USA.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tie Guy Posted February 10, 2003 Share Posted February 10, 2003 Originally posted by JM Qui-Gon Jinn No, they hate you because you helped Israel into stealing their land, plus the other reasons Crazy_dog mentioned. They feel the excact way against you. Ack, both sides think that the other side is brainwashed...who to trust? Who are brainwashed and who are not? I'm afraid no one can answer that question. But right now, you are a direct threat to Iraq, right? Does this mean that Saddam should attack you? Far from all muslims in the Middle East are militant. Say what you want, but most muslims hate what Bin Laden did. Well, first of all, i'm talking Muslim governments here, because, sadly, the regular Muslims have incredibly little to do with government or policy. Many Muslim governments train, harbor, or fund terrorism, and they hate Israel and the United States for the reasons Admiral and I stated. We are a direct threat to Iraq, yes, but only because of his actions against us. If we go to war i certainly think he has every right to attack back in a military fashion. I wish he wouldn't, but that's the way war works. Maybe you are, but i'm certainly not brainwashed. I can for myeslf about the decisions of this country. I've disagreed with a large portion of them, especially during the Clinton Administration. I'm not brainwashed, i can cearly see the issues at hand and made a decision that, in this case, supports my government. Middle Eastern Muslims don't have that choice, they don't have any reall perspective of America byond what their government tells them, and the government tells them America is bad. That is brainwashing. And Eagle if US democracy doesn't work anymore, then what will? Socialism? It would soon deteriorate into dictatorial Communism. European Democracy? What's the real difference, they are fundamentally the same. And don't blame me for the actions of those who took down the momuments, because that frustrates me as much as it does you. I absolutely hate the words "politically (in)correct", they are the biggest crock ever. It might be a little awkward in some situations like the one you mentioned due to radical "free rights" people, but that doesn't mean the system doesn't work, because it does. Its worked for the past two hundred years and it still works today. I agree with ya'll on the whole policing thing, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breton Posted February 10, 2003 Share Posted February 10, 2003 Originally posted by Tie Guy Maybe you are, but i'm certainly not brainwashed. I can for myeslf about the decisions of this country. I've disagreed with a large portion of them, especially during the Clinton Administration. I'm not brainwashed, i can cearly see the issues at hand and made a decision that, in this case, supports my government Well, those who are brainwashed mostly refuses to think so themselves. Not saying that you are brainwashed, just saying that that's what they all say. We are a direct threat to Iraq, yes, but only because of his actions against us. But he is only a direct threat against you because of your actions against him... It'll get too stupid if the conflict would consist of both parts yelling "He started it!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tie Guy Posted February 10, 2003 Share Posted February 10, 2003 Originally posted by JM Qui-Gon Jinn Well, those who are brainwashed mostly refuses to think so themselves. Not saying that you are brainwashed, just saying that that's what they all say. Oh, and i suppose you know because you hang out with a lot of brainwashed poeple all the time, right? It'll get too stupid if the conflict would consist of both parts yelling "He started it!" You're right, but it doesn't matter. I think he started it, but either way, we're ending it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted February 10, 2003 Share Posted February 10, 2003 I will give you a nice example of a muslim country who hates the US for different reasons then what you guys have mentionned. IRAN In the sixties or fifties, the US controlled the oil in Iran and toook all the profit. A Iranian president said that the oil belonged to the people of Iran and a part of the profits should go to them. But the US refused and Iran kicked them out. Now the people of Iran hate the US for trying to control what was theirs. Tie Guy- You are NOT ending anything. You can kill Bin Laden or Saddam, there will be another guy taking their places. Religions and Israel- Well that's true. But tell me why some muslim women hate the US? Capitalism- Boy! Capitalism is not better then communism. it turned out to be both bad. Communism became a dictatorial. Capitalism is currently at this moment right now (when I'm posting and when you're reading) using little kids in third world countries to make products that here costs 80+$ and they get paid 0.10$ a day. Another reason for them to hate you... Your big multinational corporations are doing crushing smaller companies and are taking advantage of people's misery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zygomaticus Posted February 11, 2003 Share Posted February 11, 2003 Tie Guy- You are NOT ending anything. You can kill Bin Laden or Saddam, there will be another guy taking their places. Tie Guy most definitely won't. The United States Government/Army/Navy/Airforce/Marines will. And yes, assassination will lead to the take over of a possibly worse man, that's why Bush is pushing for war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Odin Posted February 11, 2003 Share Posted February 11, 2003 Um, your wrong about Iran... Once again from one of my favorite sources (aka the History channel): In 1954, Iran allowed an international consortium of British, American, French, and Dutch oil companies to operate its oil facilities, with profits shared equally between Iran and the consortium -------------------- In Mar., 1973, short of the end of the 25-year 1954 agreement with the international oil-producing consortium, the shah established the NIOC's full control over all aspects of Iran's oil industry, and the consortium agreed (May, 1973) to act merely in an advisory capacity in return for favorable long-term oil supply contracts. In the aftermath of the Arab-Israeli War of Oct., 1973, Iran, reluctant to use oil as a political weapon, did not participate in the oil embargo against the United States, Europe, Japan, and Israel Full Article: http://www.historychannel.com/cgi-bin/frameit.cgi?p=http%3A//www.historychannel.com/perl/print_book.pl%3FID%3D93579 Muslim women hate the US/Western Countries for the same reason Muslim men do. If you want I will debate the virtues of Capitalism over communish (not in this thread). The main thing is the companies pay them so little because they are willing to work for so little. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tie Guy Posted February 11, 2003 Share Posted February 11, 2003 Originally posted by lukeiamyourdad Tie Guy- You are NOT ending anything. You can kill Bin Laden or Saddam, there will be another guy taking their places. Alright, so the solution would be to kill all militant Muslims then, is that what you want? We obviously can't, aren't, and don't want to do that, but striking at the leaders and supply chains does deal critical blows to the organizations. And why would mulsim women be any different than muslim men in hating the US? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagobahn Eagle Posted February 11, 2003 Author Share Posted February 11, 2003 OT: What annoys me is that about always, universally, women are given a higher right to live then men and it's for some reason a lot more tragic if 20 women die than if 20 men die (x people were kileld, including women and children..") Hello? What the people saying stuff like that probably means is "x people were killed, including civilians/innocents". Are all men soldiers and all women civilians? Do some people actually go, "They bombed Kabul. That's sad.. Women died?! I thought just men died!! This is horrible!!!" Also the obvious "if a guy sees a naked girl, the guy is a peeper. If a girl sees a naked guy, the guy is a pervert for 'making a woman see him naked'..." Girls are discriminated, but guys certainly do not go unchecked.. ----- Back on topic: Alright, so the solution would be to kill all militant Muslims then, is that what you want? We obviously can't and don't want to do that, but striking at the leaders and supply chains does deal critical blows to the organizations. Exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted February 11, 2003 Share Posted February 11, 2003 I brought up the muslim women here because they are the one without rights and are still against the US. I was talking about the US never be capabled of stoping terrorism or even hate against them. Here in Canada there is a lot of people against the US' attack on Irak but we don't have enemies... What about the european countries against this war? they've known terrorism for a hell of a lot longer time then the US and they are against this war. Violence always brings up even more violence. Oh by the way, here there is a lot of people who don't want to give their creations(copyrights for movie ideas and stuff) to any US industry for the simple reason that they want to totally possess the thing. They don't want to give it just because they know that their creation will be altered and at the end, it won't be what they created anymore but something else, something different. I just wanted to post this, it doesn't have anything to do with the war. But it is a reason of hate against the US over here and also all those companies that take advantage of little kids in third world countries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagobahn Eagle Posted February 13, 2003 Author Share Posted February 13, 2003 People waited during the Cuban missile crisis. Why can't we wait during this crisis? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darthfergie Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 Originally posted by JM Qui-Gon Jinn Well, those who are brainwashed mostly refuses to think so themselves. Not saying that you are brainwashed, just saying that that's what they all say. Brainwashed. The definition of brainwashing JUST KIND OF implies that...just kind of. But he is only a direct threat against you because of your actions against him... It'll get too stupid if the conflict would consist of both parts yelling "He started it!" Oh bull. He's a direct threat to the whole friggin world! 1. He has a HUGE oil supply. If he wanted to kick the world economy in that arse he can just embargo (of course his oil refinaries would shrivel up and die...but anyway) 2. This guy has a past history of illegal actions. THAT is why sanctions were put on the country. The US did not place them there. The UN did. The UN represents the intrests of MANY MANY more countries than just the US. He isn't just insulting the US by violating these sanctions, he is insulting the world at large. 3. In case you HADN'T figured it out by now...Weapons of Mass Distruction ARE in direct violation to the sanctions put on them by the UN. In fact they are HUGE violations that call for immediate action. (BTW, A reason we don't go after N Korea is that I don't think they HAVE sanctions on them. It is not illegal for them to produce them to the best of my knowledge.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breton Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 Originally posted by darthfergie 1. He has a HUGE oil supply. If he wanted to kick the world economy in that arse he can just embargo (of course his oil refinaries would shrivel up and die...but anyway) So you should attack anyone who produces a lot of oil? Why shouldn't he have just as much right to embargo as anyone else? 2. This guy has a past history of illegal actions. THAT is why sanctions were put on the country. The US did not place them there. The UN did. The UN represents the intrests of MANY MANY more countries than just the US. He isn't just insulting the US by violating these sanctions, he is insulting the world at large. But the US did put a lot of pressure on UN to get those sanctions (wich BTW has caused the death of hundreds of thousands of innocent children (if not more)). Would all the sanctions be placed there if US hadn't pressured for them? Doubtfully. 3. In case you HADN'T figured it out by now...Weapons of Mass Distruction ARE in direct violation to the sanctions put on them by the UN. In fact they are HUGE violations that call for immediate action. You have yet to give real evidence for them having WoMDs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JediMasterEd Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 Geez, one argument ends and another starts. Ok, the US has been putting pressure on the UN because Bush thinks it's right to do it because of the one question. "What if?". What if Sadam had Weapons of Mass Destruction? He'd use it on Kuwait right now, where there is a ton of US Troops there. What if he doesn't? Well, there are people already there, might as well take SOME oil... Resolution 1441 from the UN was enacted to make Sadam disarm, but there was no proof he did disarm. If he had disarmed, we wouldn't be in this verbal battle (for right now). The pictures that was shown from Collin (sp?) Powell was good enough to change some minds, but not all. France, Russia and China are against it, ok, maybe we should wait and see what happens, send in more UN inspectors. The United States is only doing this because: 1.) There is some proof that Sadam has been harboring terrorists and 2.) He has been a thorn in our side for years, claiming that he has disarmed. North Korea has no right to be embroiled in this. What they are doing is, I can't even word it cause it's so rediculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zygomaticus Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 Originally posted by Dagobahn Eagle People waited during the Cuban missile crisis. Why can't we wait during this crisis? Maybe because Sadaam is potentially more dangerous and more "crazy" than Castro (?) at the time. (? It was Castro leading Cuba then, right?) Why shouldn't he have just as much right to embargo as anyone else? Because this Embargo could kill MANY people in third world countries and completely cripple industries in other countries. Only a sadistic power hungry fool would do that, and the world could do without them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecks_Gecar Posted March 3, 2003 Share Posted March 3, 2003 These arguements are getting old Iraq probaly does have illgeal weapons. But hey who doesn't? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SE_Vader_536 Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 Originally posted by Ecks_Gecar These arguements are getting old Iraq probaly does have illgeal weapons. But hey who doesn't? Yeah i mean israel has nukes illegally but no one worries about them shooting one off... i mean they haven't done anything illegal recently... They only put up an illegal wall, not to mention the countless other minor infractions it committed to make palestinian's hate the occupation so much... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tie Guy Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 Why are you brining this up here? I mean, you do realize you just replied to something written 359 days ago, don't you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 Indeed. The discussion has been over for almost a year now...This is ridiculous... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherack Nhar Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 I'm really tired of this debate... especially now, someone who used to post here recently lost a friend in Iraq :-/ I'm not gonna say who, because he probably wouldn't want me to... but still, I don't like this topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darthfergie Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 They have a point...this discussion uses old and outdated information at the very least...I'm gonna lock it up. Start a new thread if you want to gripe about Isreal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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