Toa Tahu Posted February 15, 2003 Share Posted February 15, 2003 If there is a 'Jedi' game at the works,what would you want them to tweak? I'd personally prefer these: More open-ended gameplay More RPG(as in JK1) Different Force effects based on time -I mean,let's say you tap lightly the 'Push' button.Your enemy flies gently away.then,you abuse your button.You press and hold it.Suddenly,the dark jedi coming your way is swept off his feet and plunges to the depths of Nar Shadda(FAR away from the nearest platform),never to be seen again... How about you guys? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khier Posted February 15, 2003 Share Posted February 15, 2003 Hmm I agree, it would cool to have it like an RPG, with a lots of things to do and see with maybe quests and tings like that , I think I would make the saber combat pretty much the same as JO (it's the best saber combat system I've seen so far), except with a stance for the double bladed saber and one for dual sabers , as for force powers, I don't use them much anyways, so I don't care too much..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toa Tahu Posted February 16, 2003 Author Share Posted February 16, 2003 No.The best combat system I've seen so far is in Severance and Morrowind.You get to hold your weapon. Perhaps I think they should make the lightsaber combat system like this: Light:Faster but less range Medium:In-between Heavy:Slow but more range IMHO,the normal red stance is over-used.Whadaya think?Someone reply please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khier Posted February 16, 2003 Share Posted February 16, 2003 I said SABER combat system , actually I didn't like the Morrowind combat much, for swords and other melee weapons at least, it was just stab, slash, and overhead slash......... I quickly got bored of it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luc Solar Posted February 16, 2003 Share Posted February 16, 2003 Originally posted by Toa Tahu IMHO,the normal red stance is over-used.Whadaya think?Someone reply please? I mostly use yellow. But red is over-used simply because the sabers got nerfed so bad that it is the only way you can actually do real damage. That problem could be fixed with upping saber damage. I think we need manual blocking and fast deadly sabers with a large variety of moves that can be aimed at certain bodyparts (torso, head, feet) and area located damage. Wasn't Severance that medieval game where you went into "battle mode", strafing in circles whenever an enemy got close? That would not be so good in a fast paced FPS like this. You'd be in real trouble with guns and more than one opponent at a time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toa Tahu Posted February 20, 2003 Author Share Posted February 20, 2003 Some one reply please? What I think is that we should completely make the saber damage gone.They should make it all the same. The only thing is that they should make the range and timing different. Anyone agree? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luc Solar Posted February 20, 2003 Share Posted February 20, 2003 One thing they should keep in mind is that single player is one thing...MP is a whole different beast. Stuff that works in SP is doomed to fail in MP. Saber damage should depend on the sort of swing that hits. A) What sort of swing it is that connects * Strong DFA <> idle saber damage) AND B) Where it hits. * Different bodyparts should play a role as well as what the opponent is armed with. Less damage against a guy with a saber and more damage against someone with f.ex a detpack. This would be a good thing considering the balance between guns and sabers >> A saberist is dead meat unless he can get up close. It's only fair that he has the upper hand if he manages to do that. Whether we have one single stance with slow and fast swings or multiple stances with different kind of swings in each stance doesn't make much difference. However I don't like the idea of slowing down the speed of movement simply because you're using stance X. Different swings - different speed and damage. One stance or many stances, makes no difference really (except that 3 stances helps to cut down the amount of buttons you have operate at a time to execute moves..) Make single player a RPG-ish FPS with a strong, non-linear storyline. Make MP fast, functional and balanced. Make the people who, in the middle of a fight, run to the nearest supershield spawn-point and "/amsit" die a slow horrible death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zodiac Posted February 20, 2003 Share Posted February 20, 2003 A normal question for all those who want 'rpg' in future jk : Why not just go and play Knights Of The Old Republic, or SW: Galaxies?? I mean.. KOTR is going to be an RPG and galaxies an MMORPG.. so those games probably should be much better with the rpg-gameplay/style than an 'RPG-mod' that wasn't made for a true RPG game like jk2.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chewie Bakker Posted February 20, 2003 Share Posted February 20, 2003 I think a similar game to JK2 with a bit more character-development would be pretty cool. I'm thinking instead of blue/yellow/red stances you could buy points for the 7 forms of lightsaber combat (I read about them somewhere). Each form has its advantages and disadvantages, and there different stances. It's not much, but it's a start. Feel free to use this for a brainstorm, that's why I mentioned it. The Force will be with you, always. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryudom Posted February 20, 2003 Share Posted February 20, 2003 imaging switching between 7 stances... i guess it would be possible for a charecter to only have certain stances though or such Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormHammer Posted February 20, 2003 Share Posted February 20, 2003 Originally posted by Zodiac A normal question for all those who want 'rpg' in future jk : Why not just go and play Knights Of The Old Republic, or SW: Galaxies?? I mean.. KOTR is going to be an RPG and galaxies an MMORPG.. so those games probably should be much better with the rpg-gameplay/style than an 'RPG-mod' that wasn't made for a true RPG game like jk2.. Well, first of all, Jedi Knight and now Jedi Outcast both allow you to switch between 1st and 3rd person views. I tend to prefer 1st person for exploration and ranged combat, and 3rd person for melee combat. And from my POV...when I talk about RPG elements in relation to another Jedi game, I'm referring to the type of thing seen in Deus Ex or even NOLF2...where you are given more choice in how you accomplish missions, and how you want to develop your character's skills. I wouldn't want to see anything like a complex stats system, and combat based on rules to decide whether you hit your opponent. Not for a Jedi Knight game. But the choice of stealth or action, a choice of pathways, and a choice of how to tackle certain situations improves replayability, especially for SP games. The other thing I tend to hate in the current crop of shooters is that if you fail to complete a mission in a certain way, it's game over. I'd much prefer it if the game simply continued...but some other elements changed in the gameplay afterwards to reflect your failure. Don't get me wrong, I'm looking forward to Knights Of The Old Republic...but for that particular play style, and that particular story. I just think there is a lot more room for proper player character development and improved environmental and NPC interaction within an FPS framework. Straightforward shooters with a traditional line-up of weapons just seem lacking after playing games like Deus Ex and NOLF2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithiril Posted February 20, 2003 Share Posted February 20, 2003 above all, I think it should have top-of-the line modding tools and a solid support for the community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
master_thomas Posted February 20, 2003 Share Posted February 20, 2003 The other thing I tend to hate in the current crop of shooters is that if you fail to complete a mission in a certain way, it's game over. I'd much prefer it if the game simply continued...but some other elements changed in the gameplay afterwards to reflect your failure. Do you mean like in Cairn_dock1 when an alarm console is raised you are captured instantly? Then, you get killed after several hits from an interrogation droid after Jan claimed that several entire interrogation droids burned out and she hadn't been severely harmed. I hated that. You should just get wave after wave of enemies for a while and if you survive, you get a chance to finish because they have to transport, but everytime it gets raised, all doors lock and you have to find an alternate route. I have thought of this for a while and it definatally would increase replay value. I really don't think that someone like Kyle should get captured after a single alarm was raised. You should at least get a chance to escape until they give up the search for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chewie Bakker Posted February 21, 2003 Share Posted February 21, 2003 I'd also like to try playing a JK2-style game in the past (does that mean A long, long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away...?), perhaps within the same timeframe as KotOR. I figure there'd be lots of Sith to take on, and therefore more Saber-on-saber action. Either that or something in the same era as when Obi-Wan was a little more active. Obi-Wan be cool. ^_^ The Force will be with you, always. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toa Tahu Posted February 21, 2003 Author Share Posted February 21, 2003 The other thing I tend to hate in the current crop of shooters is that if you fail to complete a mission in a certain way, it's game over. I'd much prefer it if the game simply continued...but some other elements changed in the gameplay afterwards to reflect your failure. Yeah,I agree.They should make it more open ended,but,at the same time,able to complete the game if you fail a bit here and there though.replayability should be much higher. Why not just go and play Knights Of The Old Republic, or SW: Galaxies?? I mean.. KOTR is going to be an RPG and galaxies an MMORPG.. so those games probably should be much better with the rpg-gameplay/style than an 'RPG-mod' that wasn't made for a true RPG game like jk2.. I don't mean to flame you or to mean any offense,but,have you played Dark Forces 2:Jedi Knight?If you haven't,then there's a part in the game which will prompt you to choose between the light or dark side,the game ending depends on your choice.This,is the RPG-style I mean. And besides,KoToR is 3eD&D(isn't it?),and you'll have to p2p for SWG.Who'll want to play that when compared to the rpg-ness of JK1 in a fast-paced action game? NO OFFENSE TO ANYONE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hekx Posted February 21, 2003 Share Posted February 21, 2003 I hope they at least put some effort into testing and researching more of an RP element. As for the Red stance, the forward strike is redicously powerful. It would be nice to see newer learners start with lower skill, while longer more advanced players get more points due to their force mastery. I'd like to see the 'Seven Lightsaber Forms' implemented in-game for SP. If you follow a certain path, you get limitations and bonuses. If they don't make MP my role-play based; they can at least do it for SP. Oh yeah, and a co-op gametype like UT's Assault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zodiac Posted February 21, 2003 Share Posted February 21, 2003 to toa tahu : I now understand your pov about rpg and JK2! I was a bit off and thinking of the more complex true-rpg games (like.. ultima or whatever lol).. and i thought people wanted JK2 to 'turn into' a true-rpg game, so I was wondering why'd people want that when true rpg SW games already exist/are in development... and i was just wondering what would be different if jk2 and other SW games would all be true rpgs. But it's more clear now ... I'm concluding that people are only asking for some rpg-elements in the game, and not asking for a total 100% jk2 rpg-game. I personally think rpg-elements in the game would be nice, but they shouldn't become too complex (with too cpmplex stats and all, like stormhammer said). And yes of course i've played JK!!! . I've been in a JK clan for years (see my sig lol). what a silly question. Good game isn't it. I used to play it non stop for over 4 years, but stopped playing it in early 2002. I sometimes still log onto zone tho, to grab a quick game with one of my clanmates. And my clan's going to play Galaxies lol. It's p2p yeah, but we're all pretty rich (i think...). Galaxies is probably going to be great.. with so many people too interact with.. but I don't want to have too high hopes, because I had them for JK2 as well.. and well.. u know.. the higher ur hopes, the more you can get dissapointed. (off topic question..Does Lucasarts have anymore multiplayer Star Wars games scheduled to be released in the near future, or are KOTOR and Galaxies the only 2? ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormHammer Posted February 21, 2003 Share Posted February 21, 2003 Originally posted by master_thomas Do you mean like in Cairn_dock1 when an alarm console is raised you are captured instantly? Then, you get killed after several hits from an interrogation droid after Jan claimed that several entire interrogation droids burned out and she hadn't been severely harmed. I hated that. Yes, those were a couple of instances. But it goes further than that in JO...If you fall down into some water that isn't too far under you (like on the run-up to the mining world), you just die. I mean in Jedi Knight, I fell a lot further than that, and lived...and had a way to get back up to where I started again either by pathways or elevators. I also believe that if you shoot that Imperial you are supposed to hold prisoner to open the door for you to free the prisoners, the game ends. While that bit was cool...I would have preferred some leeway, and an alternative route, in case I shot him (or he died at the teeth of those gnashers). Then if you don't save enough of the prisoners, it's game over. I hated that. It would have been far better to walk around afterwards and just see how many of them you couldn't save...which makes you try harder the next time you play. I think that's what it boils down to, really. Instead of having the developer telling me I have to do it this way or feel bad when it's game over, I want to be self-motivated, and think I could have done better, so I'll try harder next time. My choice...not theirs. You should just get wave after wave of enemies for a while and if you survive, you get a chance to finish because they have to transport, but everytime it gets raised, all doors lock and you have to find an alternate route. I have thought of this for a while and it definatally would increase replay value. I really don't think that someone like Kyle should get captured after a single alarm was raised. You should at least get a chance to escape until they give up the search for you. Yep, totally agree. Again, NOLF2 is a good example of how to do stealth. Even if you get spotted, and the alarm is raised...you still get the opportunity to play cat-and-mouse with the guards, and can usually either find a decent place to hide until the alarm dies down...or you can fight off nearby pursuers and then hide. I loved those moments, actually...because a couple of the times through the Siberia main base camp in NOLF2, one of the guards spotted my tracks in the snow...and followed them to where I was hiding, or they'd see a light go out and come to investigate! Basically, to have a proper stealth element, you need the level designer to provide you with hiding places. Indeed, a lot of the points raised encompass the level design. You can't get back up from a fall unless the level is designed that way. You can't use sneak tactics, unless you have places to hide. You can't choose an alternative route, unless it's put there in the first place. The other thing I disliked about JO was the fact that you could look at distant parts of the level, and see no enemies or NPCs. Yet as soon as you walked past a trigger point, they magically appeared - and sometimes with no possible physical means of getting there. I thought the whole idea of LOD was so you could have characters with minimal polygons at a distance, and higher polygons up close? So why is it not possible to see people moving around over longer distances? Or is it more to do with X amount of AI impacting performance? If you have to have characters suddenly appear that were not there before...then why not simply have them walk through a door into view, or up a flight of steps, or come out of a long tunnel, or even get dropped off by a passing vehicle? These are more natural ways of repopulating an area. The other thing that springs to mind when talking about Jedi and stealth elements is feeling the presence of an enemy through the force. How do you portray this? Well...it's actually ridiculously simple in gameplay terms (which is not to say, realistic terms)...by having a compass or radar in the corner of the screen that shows the proximity of enemies or even NPCs. This is another element of NOLF2 that works well. You can tag enemies in that game, and they show up on your compass as red dots, and you can tell when they are getting near, and when they are moving away. Is it realistic? Probably not...but it works in terms of sheer gameplay, and allows you to time your movements. I think such a system would work well in terms of a Jedi, and add more to the much-needed stealth elements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
master_thomas Posted February 22, 2003 Share Posted February 22, 2003 The point you made about the warden at artus is another thing I thought that should have been different. That is wonderful especially for some people that I know of that will shoot at any enemy that moves. (I like to wait and listen to possible stupid conversations by the stormtroopers like one in cairn_dock1 where one says something like "Yes sir, thermal scan identifies nothing. Yes sir, I'm sorry sir. (Off comm) Big lousy officer. Why don't you try to see out of this damn helmet while I sit in my comfy office and tell you how dumb and incompetent you are!":p) Someone who is closer to some of the depictions of Kyle would instinctively kill him (One hit head shot with the e11 will kill.) and lose the first several times or constantly shoot his legs trying to get the mine monsters like I have done. It is very hard not to do that with e11 secondary fire) Why not just ask him the clearance code or if it is too complicated, or only the warden can do it, (like a hand print identification scan)at least remove the minemonsters. Three teams can be annoying when you are trying to protect a guy that won't flee after damage like most would. He stands still with is hands up while being eaten alive . There would probably be another way to open the hangar anyway. If damaged, it could be stuck open or closed for a long time. This would make either security or maneuvering unrealistically difficult. The imperials there are stupid, but not that stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hekx Posted February 22, 2003 Share Posted February 22, 2003 It would be nice to have 'civilians' in SP like on the ns_streets map, and if you shoot any of them, you get a 'negative' allignment which effects your overall path and general force allignment. I like the idea, but I could be drifting off into an RP game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormHammer Posted February 22, 2003 Share Posted February 22, 2003 Originally posted by Hèkx Nòxú It would be nice to have 'civilians' in SP like on the ns_streets map, and if you shoot any of them, you get a 'negative' allignment which effects your overall path and general force allignment. I like the idea, but I could be drifting off into an RP game. But that's exactly how it worked in Jedi Knight: Dark Forces II. If you shot too many civvies, your alignment slider went over to the Dark Side...and then you had the whole branching story thing going on. Jedi Knight did have more of an RP element than JO, and it worked well...which is why it should see a return in any further sequels... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hekx Posted February 22, 2003 Share Posted February 22, 2003 Ah, cool. I haven't played JK, the graphics seem to scare me off. But the gameplay sounds very good. Maybe JK2 was a test to see if the JK1 or JK2 sold better meaning they plan to make the JKIII more like the best seller. I seriously hope the questionaire they released was meant towards the overall approach made on JO2, because it seems most* people want more role-playing elements. * - Don't quote me on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wisperer Posted February 22, 2003 Share Posted February 22, 2003 I would like to see the option to have more then one player (example:small home lan) be able to play the campaigns, with each additional person the number of and skill of the mobs going up. I got bored with JKII after defeating it twice. after downloading some player made campaigns i have started playing it again. Zodiac I just reread the KOTOR sight. where did you see that more then one can play? I would love it if it was a multiple player game, as long as there were campaigns to be done as i do not really like just being able to duel or team fight others. For the sneaking area, i have found a alternate route but I was jusing a cheat at the time. i need to play it again with out any cheats to see if it is playable before posting it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toa Tahu Posted February 23, 2003 Author Share Posted February 23, 2003 To zodiac: It's good you see what I mean and not think that I meant you some offense.The RP-ing I meant is the type in JK1.That was good,I like it,and I would like it implemented if there was another Jedi Knight game. One more thing:if you killed a Stormie without it attacking you,your alignment should drift to the Dark side,however,when attacking someone who attacked you doesn't change your alignment.Sounds like Morrowind,doesn't it?(btw,Hekx Noku,you aren't drifting to a RP game,it's JK you're talking about,and JK is a FPS,remember?) You want to play Galaxies?I think KoTOR is a good example of Galaxies,only that you don't have to p2p or MP. Personally,I would like the next 'Jedi' game to be more open ended,like how you guys describe NOLF2.That would be nice.Imagine having a different way to solve a certain part of the game,then having different ending cutscenes depending on how you played. Come to think of it,there weren't much of NPC's in JO,isn't it,if compared to JK.Remember the starting JK levels?You had the other bar-members,and then some others?That is nice. There WERE a few bugs in JO,or at least,some place where I can't get through without godmode.Remember the part in artus_detention?The air vent?Persoanlly,I could go on playing for hours over just to pass that place,but,because my time's limited,I was impatient to use Godmode.Seriously,I can't really proceed if I didn't use godmode. Talking about the storyline,what would you guys thing it would be?I'd want a story twist,like some of the badguys you fought but didn't die turn to the light side,as said by this guy in j-o.com? http://www.jedi-outcast.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8873 I'd like that,but what would you guys think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormHammer Posted February 23, 2003 Share Posted February 23, 2003 Originally posted by Toa Tahu Talking about the storyline,what would you guys thing it would be?I'd want a story twist,like some of the badguys you fought but didn't die turn to the light side,as said by this guy in j-o.com? http://www.jedi-outcast.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8873 I'd like that,but what would you guys think? If you're talking about storyline...then I think there is a great deal of room for improvement. Something that the developers of Deus Ex: Invisible War and Far Cry have been talking about recently is emergent behaviour. Basically, they are talking about setting the scene using an underlying plot...but allowing the player to take greater control over how the story is told by introducing much better AI, so your enemies (and even NPCs) will start making their own decisions. Basically, it is a move away from heavy scripting, so an enemy will not simply duck for cover in the same place every time...but may dive to the ground, duck behind a tree, jump into a jeep to escape, get down on their knees and beg for mercy...all at random. This obviously affects the gameplay...and the way the gamer is telling their own story. So basically, you have two levels of story-telling...the underlying plot, which the developer puts in place to keep the game flowing, and the way the gamer decides to achieve certain objectives. The other thing I would like to see is far less dependence on cut scenes. Other games have managed to tell interesting stories with minimal cut-scenes (Half-Life, Unreal, Deus Ex), by incorporating the story-telling into the gameplay. In Half-Life you remain in-character while key events unfold around you...even having a blackout and coming to consciousness to see you are being carried by marines. And the NPCs give you bits of important information as you go along. In Unreal, you can read the personal logs of the ship's dead crew and the Nali, as well as read messages on the walls - and these give you clues in how to proceed. Deus Ex, of course, took it to the next level, by allowing you to question NPCs, watch newsfeeds, read newspapers, read books, hack into computer terminals to read emails, and then allowed you to make informed choices about who you really wanted to work for, which affected how the game ended. I would love to see the next game in this series incorporate these kinds of elements. Cut scenes where only dialogue is involved, particularly those which feature your character, could work just as well (or even better) by allowing you to remain in-character. Scripted sequences for key events can build atmosphere and affect how you proceed, and intelligent AI that basically lives in it's environment and makes it's own decisions regardless of whether you are viewing them, can randomise encounters and make you think twice about how to tackle the next section. Being able to hack systems to read information, talk to NPCs to obtain clues (while still having freedom of movement), steal a data card and read it's contents, and listen in to conversations that actually feed you clues (as well as the humerous chat such as that between the Stormtroopers in JO), are all ways in which the story-telling becomes part of the environment, and becomes more immersive as the player has to uncover it themselves. As for the underlying plot...it might be good to see a bit of conspiracy going on, where some characters who are supposd to be on your side are up to no good, and you have to find out who you can trust and who you can't...and then have some betrayals later on, where a supposed ally suddenly tries to kill you. Expanding on the number of key characters you interact with during the course of the game is also important, I think - and I mean characters that you will meet again later on, not just meet once and never see again. The thing I liked about JO was that you got to meet the villain early on in the game...and then had to face them again. In too many games, these days, you simply go from level to level to level, and only meet the Big Boss at the end, usually in a contrived confined space packed with ammo and health pickups. I'd prefer having a few encounters with your arch-nemesis, where you fight them, then they get away, then you come across them again and have another battle. If you think about it...that fits well with the original Star Wars trilogy, where Luke locked horns with Vader a few times (the Death Star run, the duel in ESB, surrendering in ROTJ, then duelling again). In this way, you can build up the relationship between the key characters. As far as characters go...they all need a bit more depth and range of emotion (which can be expressed through voice and animation) to make them really come alive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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