C'jais Posted April 29, 2003 Share Posted April 29, 2003 Originally posted by Darth Zanatos I'm a Christian, and it means you have accepted Jesus into your heart and asked God to forgive your sins. Then you do God's Will(that's not a bad thing you people who think we're wasting time) and do that by praying and reading the Bible for guidance. So going to heaven is just about knowing the right people, rather than doing the right thing? I can't believe that's what's referred to as "just and fair". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Zanatos Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 No. I also said that "do God's will" which is doing the right thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kain Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 okay, I'll make everyone a promise. When God shows himself to me, I see an angel, or I shake hands with Christ, I'll convert. Until then, the whole omnipotent being is, well, bull. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russ Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 Hey Darth Zanatos, Why don't we pray for MydnightPsion and munik... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShockV1.89 Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 Hmph. I'm not heathen enough to warrent prayers for me? I'll have to work harder. Actually, my girlfriend prays for me every night. She's a born-again christian. These discussions are nothing new to me. Her and I have talked for hours upon hours about this. One of the major justifications she cites for her faith is the feeling she gets from it. I might be able to explain this away through psychology, but I dont bother. I mean, it's making her happy. It makes people happy. I cant oppose this, even if they might be made to feel happy by something other than what they think it is. People use what they want to feel happy. As long as you're not hurting yourself or forcing it on others, I have no problem with it. Just dont tell me I'm wrong for using mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 Originally posted by ShockV1.89 I might be able to explain this away through psychology, but I dont bother. I mean, it's making her happy. It makes people happy. I cant oppose this, even if they might be made to feel happy by something other than what they think it is. I'm with you. It's indeniable that faith can truly work wonders on a personal scale. Some people need faith to survive, much in the same way that some old people need a dog to keep them company. I can't see anything wrong with this. Regarding psychology, if we assume that religious experiences are caused by brain chemistry and electrical impulses, could it perhaps be that certain people might have the genetic disposition for believing more than others do? Could it be that our friends Izzy and Zanatos needs less of a "push" in order to believe than I do? And could it be that we could artificially create religious experiences and beliefs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShockV1.89 Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 Originally posted by C'jais Regarding psychology, if we assume that religious experiences are caused by brain chemistry and electrical impulses, could it perhaps be that certain people might have the genetic disposition for believing more than others do? Could it be that our friends Izzy and Zanatos needs less of a "push" in order to believe than I do? And could it be that we could artificially create religious experiences and beliefs? I bet some really, really deep sci-fi stories could be written on this subject. But honestly, I dont know. I guess it depends on what people think a "religious experience" is. If you consider praying and suddenly feeling better a religious experience, well, that wouldnt be terribly hard to replicate. A simple increase in endorphins to the brain would make anyone feel better. But if you consider a religious experience as one in which something miraculous happens (burning bushes, limbs growing back)... that might be harder to duplicate. That would require external manipulation of the environment, which increases the chances of people finding out they're being led on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kain Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 Originally posted by Izzy Hey Darth Zanatos, Why don't we pray for MydnightPsion and munik... Don't pray for me, don't feel sorry for me, and DON'T CONDEMN ME to your Hell. Your tools for keeping small children in line failed on me before, and that was from my own mother. YOU can't turn my beliefs into you or your God's favor. My mind is clean of faith and religious hub-bub. I don't condemn people because their different from me and don't share my beliefes, and I won't feel sorry for them, nor will I try to convert them by scaring them with eternal damnation. Tell me, how can Christians be righteous if they stole half their book from a group of people they think are Hell-bound? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted May 1, 2003 Share Posted May 1, 2003 Originally posted by ShockV1.89 But honestly, I dont know. I guess it depends on what people think a "religious experience" is. If you consider praying and suddenly feeling better a religious experience, well, that wouldnt be terribly hard to replicate. A simple increase in endorphins to the brain would make anyone feel better. Nope. What I was thinking about would be the feeling of "being connected to your god". In this way, you could make many people religious by simply giving them a quick fix of this sensation. It could also help boost morale, and all that jazz. However, there might be another use for his discovery... Suppose we'd be able to develop a "cure" to these religious experiences? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted May 1, 2003 Share Posted May 1, 2003 Originally posted by MydnightPsion Tell me, how can Christians be righteous if they stole half their book from a group of people they think are Hell-bound? I think I heard someone in this forum say that all Jews go to Heaven per default. Or something like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kain Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 well, if thats the case, then what about Muslims? Who read the same 2 books as the Christians and one of there own? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wacky_Baccy Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 Posted by C'jais Regarding psychology, if we assume that religious experiences are caused by brain chemistry and electrical impulses, could it perhaps be that certain people might have the genetic disposition for believing more than others do? Could it be that our friends Izzy and Zanatos needs less of a "push" in order to believe than I do? And could it be that we could artificially create religious experiences and beliefs? O.o Did you happen to watch a documentary recently about that sort of thing? I only ask because what you describe is virtually what was said in the documentary I saw - and very interesting it was indeed I usually avoid discussions on religion, but this one's a bit [a lot]more orderly than they tend to be, so I think I might read it through and then join in... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinWalker Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 I've avoided this thread for too long now The original question, posted by Man..54 prior to his announcement that evolution is science fiction, was "what is christianity?" I see christianity as an affliction to most of the world. That statement isn't meant as a flame by any means, but in many countries of the "developing world" also known as the periphery by core nations, christian missionaries made their "mission" to educate the masses in what was the "correct" religion. The premise for this may have been noble: "spread god's word to all the poor people of the world that haven't heard it so that they, too, have the chance to get into heaven." Unfortunately, it assumes that their own cultures were broken. As Man...54 pointed out, there is a significant amount of christianity in Africa. This is primarily due to the missionary work that is still going on. While these cultures were certainly different, they still had many of the same general concepts in their religions that christianity has: sets of morals and codes to live by, explanations for otherwise unexplainable events, provision of comfort to those who wonder questions like "what's the purpose? what happens after death?" etc. From an objective, outside, non-religious viewpoint, the only thing that made the indigenous cultures wrong and christianity right was the fact that christian cultures had advanced more technologically. Along with the missionary movements came colonialism by countries such as England, France, Spain, etc., each bringing with them their own brands of christianity. Many cultures were having a hard time accepting that all these "christian" missionaries actually disagreed with each other. The colonizers, of course, were only interested in making profit by taking advantage of the people and their resources, so therefore the missionaries made it possible to offere some control. The empires that colonized countries in, say, Africa, were interested in cash crops and got the people to grow them. Unfortunately, cash crop agriculture has several problems: 1) soil depletion of nutriants; 2) replacement of subsistance farming; 3) making people reliant on the colonial system for food, goods, etc. 4) loss of pastoral tradition The missionaries were able to offer two things that the indigenous people wanted. Neither was religion. Christianity was a trade for food and the ability to read. The influences of colonial powers over native people caused things such as famine since their traditional methods of subsistance were no longer followed. So that's why I call christianity an affliction to most of the world. Not because I dislike christians, I actually find many christian concepts fascinating and think it's interesting to hear christians describe other religions, since you can see how obviously they judge them through the lens of their own religions, even without realizing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
munik Posted May 11, 2003 Share Posted May 11, 2003 Originally posted by Izzy Hey Darth Zanatos, Why don't we pray for MydnightPsion and munik... I'm curious, as I've heard such requests for prayer before, but what would you pray for? Unlike MydnightPsion, I do not deny christianity for lack of proof, but because I think it's retarded. If the rapture happened today, I would not convert. If jesus knocked on my door to deliver my pepperoni with extra cheese, I would not tip him. So, what would you pray for? For god to change my mind? That doesn't seem to make it any better, for the supreme being to alter those who dislike him. This does not make me a bad person. I do not hate puppies, and I really enjoy things in life. I just choose to be my own master, because that is a choice I can make. Because I do not want to serve, especially someone as twisted as your god. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iodius Posted May 11, 2003 Share Posted May 11, 2003 "So that's why I call christianity an affliction to most of the world. Not because I dislike christians, I actually find many christian concepts fascinating and think it's interesting to hear christians describe other religions, since you can see how obviously they judge them through the lens of their own religions, even without realizing it" That is the most condescending sentence I have ever read. You treat Christians like you are a scientist studieing chimpanzees, nodding your head and taking notes and thinking "how wonderful and fascinating, but wholly wrong. I am glad I am so advanced in my thinking..." I am getting quite sick and tired of the non religious (not all of you, just a few) pretending to have "clear lenses" through which they see the world. It is contrived rubbish. None of us see the world through clear lenses, that would imply that we have not been affected by any outside cultures and practises. Being religious doesn't mean one sees the world through a jaded lense, and being atheistic does not imply that one is open minded and "rational". Nor is the opposite true. Generalising the "religious" and the "non religious" to certain behaviours and social perspectives is simply stupid. "but because I think it's retarded...Because I do not want to serve, especially someone as twisted as your god." Many if not all of the Christians in this topic have given you the courtesy of not calling your beliefs or lack thereof retarted and twisted: how about you return the favour? This is a place for intelligent discussion, not childish name calling and conjecture. "If the rapture happened today, I would not convert." Oh I think you would. You are giving yourself too much credit and not thinking seriously: If God came down to Earth today and called all to repentence, with rejection meaning eternal hellfire, you my friend would repent, I am sure of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
munik Posted May 11, 2003 Share Posted May 11, 2003 Remedial Reading 101. I said "I think it is", which denotes the expression of my opinion. I did no childish name calling, just an expression of my opinion. If you took it as such, you need to invest in a thicker skin. I did not make a half-hearted statement concerning the conversion to christianity. I don't really believe it in it anyhow, but if it were true I would not choose it. You can say that I will all you want, but if god were to come down herself and make the statement about repentence and such, I find that no different then reading it in the bible. A more correct statement would be that I would convert after I was burning in the eternal hellfire, and that would be true, because I would then believe the threat. But, it would then be too late, so it's really a moot point. Just because god shows up in person to threaten me because the book isn't working, do you really think I would bend to his will then? He's holding eternal hellfire over my head, not an asswhooping, showing up at my door isn't going to change anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinWalker Posted May 11, 2003 Share Posted May 11, 2003 Originally posted by BrodieCadden You treat Christians like you are a scientist studieing chimpanzees, nodding your head and taking notes and thinking "how wonderful and fascinating, but wholly wrong. I am glad I am so advanced in my thinking..." You're only half-right. I don't think christianity is wholly wrong. I only think it's partially wrong. But that is my perspective, which, I admit, might threaten those christians who may have a sliver of doubt existing in their minds. Originally posted by BrodieCadden I am getting quite sick and tired of the non religious (not all of you, just a few) pretending to have "clear lenses" through which they see the world. It is contrived rubbish. None of us see the world through clear lenses, that would imply that we have not been affected by any outside cultures and practises. All mostly very true words, however, some of our lenses are clearer than others. I don't subscribe to the notion of sending missionaries out to "developing" countries to impose my own religious beliefs on others. I simply accept that whatever convictions I might have, other cultures may have their own, both of which have equal chances of being correct. That isn't "contrived rubish", but rather logical and critical reasoning. Certainly, I have my own culture and norms and I have undboubtedly judged other cultures through the lens of my own. On my first trip to the Middle East, I quickly noticed the differences in toiletry when using public restrooms. I found squatting over a hole in the floor and wiping with my hand and a hose somewhat repulsive... at first. I opened my mind and accepted that there are reasons for why they took care of business this way: Desert conditions mean less trees, less trees mean less pulp, less pulp means less paper, less paper means you don't waste what you have on your arse. Originally posted by BrodieCadden Being religious doesn't mean one sees the world through a jaded lense, I disagree. Certainly there are many shades of jade here... I know a very many religious people who are very open minded, but only to an extent. I also know a very many religious (not just christianity) people who are very jaded in how they view the world. But religion definately affects how you see other cultures. If, for instance, you believe your own religion is the correct one (and some people do accept multiple "truths"), then you must therefore understand that the other culture and its religion is wrong. Originally posted by BrodieCadden who Quoted Munik "but because I think it's retarded... I definately don't share Munik's view here. I respect it, but I'm starting to understand why people believe (in many things, not just religion) and the process by which people "learn" as they mature. Religion is far too re-occurring to be considered retarded, even though I understand that he did not mean the literal translation of the word, but rather the colloquial. Originally posted by BrodieCadden "If the rapture happened today, I would not convert." Oh I think you would. I doubt there's any danger of a "rapture" occurring... but that's my perspective. I could be wrong. If I am, I would gladly admit my mistake and seek favor of the higher power, but at this point in time, I see no evidence that would indicate a need to waste so much time involved in rituals and meetings. I have more productive methods of spending time with family and friends and providing to my community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
munik Posted May 11, 2003 Share Posted May 11, 2003 And the conundrum here is how do we continue to read well articulated material after the author describes the situation in which he wipes his ass with his hands. As funny as I think that is, sadly I too have had to do the crap in a hole thing. 'Cept I brought my own paper. Retarded is just one of my negative descriptive words. Used liberally in my vernacular. Also, I'm curious as to what you meant by religion being too re-ocurring to be wrong/bad/whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iodius Posted May 11, 2003 Share Posted May 11, 2003 SkinWalker, you are a very smart individual and we both argue our case to the point where neither of us can ever agree because we disagree on one very important point: I am a Christian man and you are not. Our world views, social and cultural commentary and logical reasoning are much the same, except we disagree on one crucial point in the conversation and continuing the discussion would just run us around in circles, one being unable to convince the other of their perspective. Unless there is some new point you would like to make I don't see a reason to discuss this much further. Good discussion. Stalemate, mate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinWalker Posted May 11, 2003 Share Posted May 11, 2003 Originally posted by munik And the conundrum here is how do we continue to read well articulated material after the author describes the situation in which he wipes his ass with his hands. As funny as I think that is, sadly I too have had to do the crap in a hole thing. 'Cept I brought my own paper. :D LMAO! Actually you begin to also understand the taboo about using your left hand for things like greeting others, eating, etc.! The key is to make sure that the water works in the little metal hose first, but I often brought my own paper as well. The locals hated that, as it stopped up their pipes. Since they don't flush paper through the septic, the pipes of a much less diameter and with sharper angles then western pipes, which account for MOTS (Matter Other Than Sh*t). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinWalker Posted May 11, 2003 Share Posted May 11, 2003 Originally posted by BrodieCadden Unless there is some new point you would like to make I don't see a reason to discuss this much further. Good discussion. Stalemate, mate Actually I was thinking some of the same sentiments (not just the ones I quoted) about your arguments. They are well thought out and make me consider my own perspective very carefully. I hope that I provided the same service to you. BTW, welcome to the Senate mate! I look forward to seeing more of your posts on other topics as well (perhaps we'll agree on one or two ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iodius Posted May 11, 2003 Share Posted May 11, 2003 "They are well thought out and make me consider my own perspective very carefully. I hope that I provided the same service to you." You certainly did, and I think we have both walked out of this discussion more enlightened then when we entered it. And thankyou for the welcome Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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