America Strikes Again

[ZBomber]

Originally posted by Luc Solar

* appoint a new US-friendly goverment and consultants all over said country to tell local authorities exactly what choices they must make(=what's in the best interest of the USA)

 

Well, I think they would like this kind of government better. I mean, its not like we are ruling it. They can choose however they want to be a leader. Saddam just gets peasent woman off the streets and gives um guns, and makes them help his army.

[daring dueler]

i agree that they would like a decmocracy, but my fear is some loyalists who are laying low now, what will they do?

[ZBomber]

Originally posted by daring dueler

i agree that they would like a decmocracy, but my fear is some loyalists who are laying low now, what will they do?

 

Bah, lets sabe the citizens and blow up Iraq then

[daring dueler]

good idea, only then france might trey and win a war for once.9btw i am half french lol)

[ShockV1.89]

*pops back into thread*

 

Just thought I'd throw this into the mix.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1859110.stm

 

http://asia.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=worldNews&storyID=2447935

 

Nobody's perfect.

[daring dueler]

i think everyone in the world knows that noone is perfect, but in war there is a slim margin for mistake.

[ShockV1.89]

Originally posted by daring dueler

i think everyone in the world knows that noone is perfect

 

Not really. My post was mainly directed at Clem, who seems to think that the American army is the most incompetent army in the world, and is more dangerous to its allies than its enemys. I'm simply showing him that the British army, which he holds up as the victims of American clumsiness, is very capable of its own friendly fire incidents. Shall they be branded imbeciles as well?

[Clem]

i was just about to mention the challenger innocent in the interests of fair coverage

 

but seeing as uve used it to strike against me personally

 

ill mention the fact that an american missile/bomb (not sure which) hit a market killing an expected 45 innocent iraqis

 

and that america is the worst for friendly fire incedents

 

and at least we shoot our own troops n not urs

[ShockV1.89]

I didnt want to start a pissing contest. "You're country did this!" "Oh yeah? Your country did this!" You just seemed to be acting as though the American army was incompetent and dangerous to its allies because of these incidents. I'm just showing you that friendly fire happens. It's part of war, and it happens on all sides.

 

Also, we've also got many, many more troops and equipment in there than Britain does. Naturally, we're going to have more FF incidents.

[Clem]

i did notice that ur masses of troops are continuing on to be the heroic savious of baghdad while the brits are left to clear up basra

[C'jais]

Clem, knock it off.

 

It's no good yelling at Shock as he obivously can't do anything about what his country's military has done.

 

Guys, every soldier down there is doing his best, but friendly fire happens. Whining about it on this forum is not going to change it.

 

I hope this war will be over soon.

[Clem]

a im not YELLING ... and B. he decided to make it personal not me

 

and i dont believe ive made it personal

[SkinWalker]

Originally posted by Clem

ill mention the fact that an american missile/bomb (not sure which) hit a market killing an expected 45 innocent iraqis

 

nobody's sure which it was. (bomb, missile, U.S., Iraqi).

 

In fact, it would not surprise me to discover that Iraqi gov. officials detonated an explosive device in market square.

 

I ask myself: what time of day do coalition forces bomb Bagdad? What time of day do most people visit their local market?

 

I give myself two different answers.

[griff38]

Originally posted by SkinWalker

It's okay... nobody's sure which it was. In fact, it would surprise me to discover that Iraqi gov. officials detonated an explosive device in market square.

 

I ask myself: what time of day do coalition forces bomb Bagdad? What time of day do most people visit their local market?

 

I give myself two different answers.

 

 

Whats ok?

 

and you said it would suprise you, don't you mean would not suprise you?

 

And as far as the logic you imply, that coalition forces do not bomb during market shopping hours, BBC says there was a coalition raid going on when the the market was hit.

[Mex]

Originally posted by Clem

a im not YELLING ... and B. he decided to make it personal not me

 

and i dont believe ive made it personal

 

A. Use capital letters please.

B. Use one of . <- Them once in a while.

C. This isnt personal, it's a public forum.

 

Here is a picture to cheer everyone up.

[SkinWalker]

Originally posted by griff38

Whats ok?

 

and you said it would suprise you, don't you mean would not suprise you?

 

I edited... hopefully to correct my typo and eliminate ambiguity. I was talking on the phone at work and typing at the same time.... My computer multi-tasks better than I.

 

Originally posted by griff38

And as far as the logic you imply, that coalition forces do not bomb during market shopping hours, BBC says there was a coalition raid going on when the the market was hit.

 

I was operating under the assumption that the market square was in Bagdad proper. I'm not taking sides on the issue, only attempting to discern the event from information available. I, too, caught BBC/World last night. I was under the impression that coalition raids were "on the outskirts" of Bagdad and targeting Rep. Guard positions.

 

It is equally possible, with that information, that an errant Hellfire from an AH-64 went off target. Down-range in that type of attack would seem to be the city.

 

I still do not discount Iraqi involvement. It would seem very plausible to me. Follow me for a sec.:

 

Saddam is smart. A bad guy, but smart.

 

He knows from experience that his C^3 (command, control, and communication) will be a primary target and swiftly/severely affected.

 

In planning for U.S. invasion, he would therefore issue contingincy directives to his commanders in the field and at home. We may have seen evidence of this by the Fedayeen forces pretending to give up then ambushing, irregular forces in civilian clothes, burning oil wells, taped broadcasts (I still haven't figured out the significance of Saddam's two broadcasts: one with thick glasses, one without; both reading a speech. Contacts?), etc.

 

Disinformation and propaganda must also be a part of this. It was for us. Also, Saddam's commanders in the field seem willing to shoot/mortar civilians, so detonating an explosive device in a crowded square would give the civilians of Bagdad a reason to rally behind Saddam as proof that Americans don't care for them.

 

Or, maybe it was an errant coalition missile. As we start the fighting in Bagdad's urban terrain, casualties are going to rise exponentially. On both sides. Many civilians will be killed as well. "Shock and Awe" will have an unfortunate meaning as Americans become dismayed at the amount of damage our forces sustain.

 

I hope that somehow we can avoid going into the city to fight. I hope that Rumsfeld figures out that there are not nearly enough ground troops in place and not near enough air support readily available at this time.

[griff38]

Touche,

 

Although I believe this particular incident to be from an errant coalition munition I have to agree it would be in keeping with Sadams tactics to kill civilians with stolen, aquired or faked coalition weapons.

The 1rst thought i had after seeing the intact downed Apache was "that thing still has 6 Hellfire missles on the rack!! They could take 1, detonate it in a civilian area and physical evidence would imply coalition responsibility.

 

But my personal fear is that recently aquired GPS jamming gear in the hands of the Iraqis will be used to "dirty" the flight path of incoming munitions. If an object moving near the speed of sound has it's flight path altered even slightly, this could put it off target by several feet or several miles.

 

It's clear the Iraqis have placed heavy weapons in or around civilian areas. Altering bomb & missle flight paths only slightly could leave the weapon intact and kill civilians.

Not to mention leaving alot of heavy artillary that could seriously hurt our people.

[daring dueler]

i do agree with shock, nomatter what casulties of freindly fire and innocents happen in war, and we try our best to prevent them. you cant blame us if our fire hits our own planes or men, i dont see this as rittish and american when i say us i mean both.

[Clem]

this is purely info not slagging or nething (y i feel the need to say this ... god knows)

 

america admitted to be bombing subburbs of baghdad at the time the market exploded

[daring dueler]

no, they are saying we didnt target there, but that a bomb either from iraq or a miss fire did land on the outskirts of the town, but all the bombs we have been dropping are gps guided. so they beleive it was an iraqi anti-airforce gun.

[SkinWalker]

Or, as Griff pointed out, the GPS jamming gear that Russia alledgedly provided may have interfered with a GPS guided missile from coalition forces.

[Clem]

hmmm and gps guiding can never go wrong

 

much like with "friendly fire" ... things CAN ALWAYS go wrong

[Zodiac]

During the Gulf War a total of 88.500 tons of precision guided bombs were dropped on Iraq and Kuwait. The precision was dissapointing, of the precision guided bombs, only 1 out of 4 bombs actually hit their target. One day 8 cruise missiles had to be launched to destroy one target. Another example is that 1460 attacks had to be launched to destroy one Iraqi scud missile site, because all the previous attempts failed.

 

In 1998, not much was improved. During attacks on Iraq, the USA fired 415 cruise missiles towards 79 Iraqi targets. Cost: over 500 million euroes (501 million dollars). 70% of all those missiles failed to hit their targets.

 

In 1999, during air attacks on Serbia, there still wasn't a lot of improvement. According to a secret document of the British ministery of Defense, the British Air Force only had a hit-ratio of 40%. Misses ended up eventually 100 kilometers away from their initial targets, even in the Bulgarian capital Sofia.

 

Of course, the missiles used today are more advanced, but considering a 40% hit ratio just four years ago, we can only be sceptical of how 'precise' current smart bombs are.

 

source: http://archief.www.ad.nl/artikel?SORT=date&ED=ola&PRD=2y&SEC=buitenland&SO=%2A&FDOC=25

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[Reborn Outcast]

Ok well this is my first post in this thread so sorry if this has already been said...

 

Clem: Airplanes have STRICT flying manuver codes and signals to show that they are in fact a US or British pilot and not an Iraqi who has stolen the plane. This being said, Patriot missle men have orders to shoot down any plane that doesn't do the code or its backup in the correct manner I believe. Also, do you honestly think that they have 25 mins. to converse on what they are going to do? No, its either seconds or a minute which is NOT alot of time. Also, do you really expect that ONE single Patriot group to be able to know that British planes would be coming from INSIDE Iraq when they didn't leave from that airbase that the Patriots are stashed at? No.

 

It was EVERYONES fault. Sheesh...

 

Also, you have the scrambling gear that the Iraqi's have aquired.

 

 

I could also say the same about the British... "A stupid British fool decided to screw up in a helicopter today, cause the deaths of Americans."

 

Have I said that?

[daring dueler]

percision guided bombs and gps bombs are totally different, percision are usually laser guided, and can go wrong, but gps has a .1 or somthin failure rate, i do beleive it was iraq , or a gps bomb that iraqis used the equipment against, the only civilian death was oin a bus on a bridge they were destroying.