Gameplay Suggestions

[Aoshi]

Yea Rage makes you almost invincible. Once a long time ago Sniper and myself tried to figure out how many shots it would take to kill a rager vs a person with protect. Rage took 8 direct hits with both balls of a golan to kill. Protect took 4 direct hits to kill a person with full force (we had someone else energize). Thus, you can easily see the imbalance of Rage.

[Tesla]

Rage makes you invincible? (never used it ) but in SP wouldn't that ruin the gameplay , just cheating all the time ?

[razorace]

Gees, I see a lot of jaws flapping but not very many brains working. Raven can't do stuff that'll take ages to do. Constently talking about pie in the sky ideas only drive off all people that are doing the actual work.

[DeTRiTiC-iQ]

Rage isn't in singleplayer.

 

Ok, we've established that pull/push are overused, and we've come up with some solutions that might fix the spamming. One of the major reasons pull/push became used so much in CTF was because of rage-runners.

 

Now its fair that pull/push defeats rage, its a balancing feature. Rage is used extensively in CTF because when you combine it with force speed you can reach some insane speeds. I think that if it was adjusted so that you can't rage and speed at the same time, players wouldn't automatically rage in CTF since speed would allow faster movement (which is what CTF is generally about). As a result rage would return to being used for killing people rather than running away. The place of a rager would be base defence or assisting flag-carriers, not the actually flag-carrying itself.

 

The only problem in this scenario as Sphinx pointed out is that self-kill would essentially make a rage-assisted defence practically invulnerable. So... lets look at the various factors of Rage (level 3 for convenience)

 

1) Increases your Rate of Fire

2) Lasts 20 seconds

3) Decreases the damage you receive

4) Decreases health over time

 

Personally I think 3 and 4 should be removed, and the recovery time reduced and made milder. This is because another reason Ragers suicided is because once it runs out they are a sitting duck.

 

So, my ammended list of gameplay fixes is as follows:

 

1) Alter Pull/Push so they only affect one target and they must be charged for full effect (http://www.warwick.ac.uk/~csuccf/pullpush/pull.htm)

 

2) Adjust it so that Rage and Speed can't be used at the same time

 

3) Reduce or remove completely the damage reduction of Rage

 

4) Reduce or remove the decrementing health feature of rage

 

5) Reduce or remove both the recovery time and the level to which it cripples the player.

[WD_Rage]

After reading the 100+ posts on strafe jumping alone, I think I could clarify the issue.

 

I do not think the problem is with the technique, but with the speed that is gained by it. Hell, I used it because I wanted to go faster, and I think that is the primary reason people use it. I have no problem with strafe jumping; however if the game would be sped up, the speed gained from strafe jumping would not be needed. Keep the strafe jumping, lose the speed gained from it.

 

Think about it. In a competition, everyone is going to know the tricks of the trade. While yes, a flag carrier can gain speed from strafe jumping, it really would not help him because his persuers are also strafe jumping. The speed gain is then cancelled out.

 

I think the argument can be simplified to removal of the speed gain, yet increase the overall speed of the game (especially the speed increase in force speed).

 

Edit:

 

DeTRiTiC-iQ,

 

Nice ideas for Rage

[StRiKeR_X]

*Thank you for that wonderful post, but it was completely off the topic of this thread. Try to stick to the topic at hand, thank you. - leXX

[joesdomain]

I think it would be nice to include a nice force speed. Give a jedi the ability to run extremely fast for short distance.

[makli]

Originally posted by WD_Rage

Think about it. In a competition, everyone is going to know the tricks of the trade. While yes, a flag carrier can gain speed from strafe jumping, it really would not help him because his persuers are also strafe jumping. The speed gain is then cancelled out.

 

U still miss the point, not all ppl strafe jump at the same speed, read Detritic s post above, where he described several levels of strafe jump "mastery".

 

About rage: I agree that definitely rage has to be weaker than it is in JK2. But to disable rage+speed u wouldnt be able to do lots of trick jumps. In JK2 1.04 rager takes about 12 % of normal damage. Thats why its not worth trying to shoot him till his rage lasts. I agree with Detritic about possible solution of this problem except "Adjust it so that Rage and Speed can't be used at the same time" it would be possible only if there wouldnt be any recovery time after rage.

 

EDIT: IMO it would be better if speed costed less force (like 25% instead 50% in JK2) and its effect would last for shorter time.

 

Also i dont understand why JK2 maps dont support function of announcing where each player of your team is (Q3 engine supports it and some custom map support it as well). Its very useful to see in team overlay location of your team mates.

[Toa Tahu]

Firstly,I address the issue.If we bring this topic up,let's might as well let Raven know our piece of heart.Thus,let's select and agree on which ones to represent our say,and then present them to Raven.

 

Anyway,I think it should be like this.

 

As many people have said,the saber should be lethal,1-3(3 maximum for full-shielded guys,the saber cuts through shield easier than human health).

 

As for balance,there should be 3(or maybe 4) styles,it's ok.However,the damage would be the same.The only thing that differed the styles were the range of the attacks,the strength,the defense, and speed.These will eventually balance themselves out in the gameplay.One style will counter another,easy as that.Just the saber be lethal,that's all.

 

The saber should be made into a weapon,such that it's useful(or lethal)in close combat,but practically useless in offense from far range,only being able to deflect blaster shots.

 

As for projectiles or splash dmg weapons,their damage should be proportionate to range from radius of blast,and can be avoided by acrobatics.In MP,I'm sure you'd have got the same damage when a concussion bomb from weapon 6(short form) hit you in the leg;and when the same bomb hit you in the face.

[BloodRiot]

After I start reading the posts on page 1 of this thread i have to say something. I dunno if it was already said but I'm not in the mood of reading 5 pages right now ;pppp

 

I think this game should offer the best of 2 worlds equally balanced. There's room for both gunners and saberists in the SW universe. I say make the saber uber powerful at close range but vulnerable at a distance. The game should offer a nice weapon choice for the trigger happy gammers.

 

So basically the saber should inflict loads of damage but without the almost ubber autodefense crap... making it a weapon that requires skill and training as guns do for aimming, prediciting (EG: the shockrifle from UT, shoot slow ball then explode it with the fast shot) guns require training and so should the saber.

 

The saber should be have loads of tricks and cool moves cuz that's what saberists want but make the saber also require skill for blocking saber strikes or blaster bolts, thus making every weapon equally deadly or vulnerable in some form or another.

 

The reason people use the force as a weapon instead of a tool is because saber fights in a ctf game in JO for instance arent that useful... if a saber was actually able to kill someone effectively maybe the force would be in fact used as a tool and not the primary weapon in a saber only game.

 

How would an uber powerful saber be equal to a gun then you may ask... simple... it's impossible for a saberist to attack a guy blasting him from 100 meters away. all the saberist can do is defend and get out of the way, or try to get in close quarters with the gunner who should try to avoid this situation... basically it's all reduced to tactics and skill.

 

Force powers could be tweaked so that they dont get over abused. Like someone said.. force pull should remove enemy weapons from their hands and be used to get powerups from a distance.

 

Force push should have the same effect but maybe at a closer range. Meaning you cant throw the guy of that cliff that's 100 meters away.. you'd have to be near him to do so. Also usefull for deflecting rockets and similar weapons that aren't deflected by the saber.

 

Before this reply starts looking like War and Peace, I'll just summarize what the game should like in my point of view... i stress again MY POINT OF VIEW.. like in..what I PERSONALLY would like.

 

Saber:

*Flashy moves

*No autodefense aka defense enganged via button and you'd have to look it the direction the attack is comming for instance. Example: An overhead slash should be countered with defense while looking front upwards. Defending looking to the left would block a saber or bolt comming from the right. Force sight should enable a mild autoblock but that's the only autoblock possible.

*since it's only a close quarters weapon i say make it DEADLY at that.

*Saber duels = true contest of skill

 

Guns:

*Useful weapons aka no "bb guns" or "water pistols".

*Present a threat but not a sure death to a saberist. Makes a far away saberist look for cover but you'd hate to see a saberist at close range.

 

Force Powers:

*A tool, or a last ditch weapon... never the primary form of attack.

*Usefull for defense.

 

Moves:

*Lot's of them preferablyfrom dodges kicks and punches for tactical gameplay. The more the merrier.

 

Notes:

*The moves hould be interactive with the present situation or at least with some randomization. For isntance you defend and look at the right to block a shot the saber would move upwards to defend a shot striking high or move down for a low comming bolt. When you dodge, let's say, left to avoid a shot, you'd do one of those spiderman dodging the green goblins blades spins or a cartwheel or a plain roll... it could be randomized to allow several animations for the same action. It's an extra but it's a real eye candy.

 

Hmmm found someone who explined my thought precisely:

----------------------------------------------------------------------

"In the most basic form of recreation in of the movie battles I see it like this. If I see the enemy swing at me, I hit block, my animation looks like an actual attack, but it ends up meeting the other saber animation midway colliding. Give it quick pause to sell the fact that it was clear and obvious block and then release to pull back to the stance pose.

 

In JO the blocks were 2 frames of an actuall swing animation that were always close to the body. You need block specific animations not recyled time savers. This is just how I see it of course."

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Well...i'm done for now.

 

Cheers.

[Necrosis]

1 more quick note on strafe jumping. They shoulden't take away the speed from strafe jumping... Why would they? What's the difference from all players running to all players strafe jumping? Don't bother shooting back with "strafe jumping doesn't look star warish" because thats not a valid arguement since the game is NOT an RPG and strafe jumping adds a little more into gameplay. I think running/walking everywhere would get VERY bland after a while.

 

 

Det's idea about not being able to mix rage+ speed is.. I guess alright. I probably don't LOVE it because I was "the ultimate rage whore in yavin." I mean, the weird thing is, the constant pulling was only really annoying in maps like WF or BE which had big/alot of pits. Maps like yavin it was fine, because if you used rage, it was one way you had to stop it. And obviously it would be retarted to pull cappers that are using absorb. I think pull should be fixed SLIGHTLY, yes. More of a delay in between pulls is all we need I think, and not such an increase in delaying movement MAYBE. I think the best solution would just to be to make more maps without so many pits for CTF. Sabers it was never really a problem.

 

I definatly think the saber needs to be more lethal, and maybe add manual blocking. Because if you stood beside someone with a blue saber and slashed them to death, it takes forever to kill them.

 

* Sabers need to do less damage/ be easier autoblocked when people go around randomly swinging. HOWEVER, the sabers need to be MORE powerful against someone who has a gun out, or when they are offguard with a saber.

 

 

 

[Necrosis]

YES BloodRiot nailed what Im trying to say. I agree with BloodRiot in every comment he made. Nice post

[Solo4114]

Originally posted by Necrosis

1 more quick note on strafe jumping. They shoulden't take away the speed from strafe jumping... Why would they? What's the difference from all players running to all players strafe jumping? Don't bother shooting back with "strafe jumping doesn't look star warish" because thats not a valid arguement since the game is NOT an RPG and strafe jumping adds a little more into gameplay. I think running/walking everywhere would get VERY bland after a while.

 

Last point from me on the strafe jumping (since it relates to a number of other things). No, this isn't a Star Wars RPG. But not everyone who wants an immersive Star Wars experience is looking to play an RPG. Some of us want an immersive Star Wars FPS. With people strafe jumping everywhere (not that I've seen it happen that much, but the potential is there), that immersion is ruined.

 

Other things ruin it too, however. If you include guns that don't evoke the feeling of Star Wars, if you have sabres that work like nerf bats, if you have people running around backwards to get kills, etc., those things all ruin the immersion in the Star Wars environment.

 

And let's face it, this IS a Star Wars FPS. If you're buying the game just because it's another FPS with a new weapon (sabre) and some extra abilities (force powers), prepare to be disappointed. If all you want is an FPS with sabres and force powers, why not just make yourself a quake mod and go play that? I'm not just saying "go play quake!!" either, here. I think that I and many others buy this game because of the license it's using: the Star Wars license. When all we get is a quake mod with some extra powers, we end up disappointed.

 

Now, that said, I'm not saying that the game should be 100% faithful to the movies just for the sake of being faithful. If that was the case, playing while using the Stormtrooper model would guarantee that you can't shoot straight. Gameplay/fun should be the top concerns, but following close behind that should be accurate reference to the source material. If there's a way to keep the gameplay fun while still referencing the source material DO IT.

 

If something exists in the game that ruins the immersion experience, though, that should be dumped, especially when there are plenty of ways to keep the game fun. I mean, honestly, what would happen if they took out strafe jumping's speed from this game alone? You'd still have plenty of other games where it could be used, you could still play this game and have fun with it. Sure, you'd actually have to run places instead of hopping around to get there. You'd also have force powers, such as force jump, speed, rage, etc. that would allow you to move plenty fast (especially if they boosted the speed for those).

 

I'm truly curious, though. If you honestly don't give a damn about whether the game looks, feels, and plays like Star Wars, why are you playing a Star Wars game? You wouldn't play a Star Trek game, or a Battlestar Galactica game, or an X-Men game, or a Loony Tunes game, or whatever and expect it to play like every other FPS, just with different guns and equipment, would you? When I buy a game that's based on licensed material, I damn well want it to be like the licensed material. Otherwise, I wouldn't buy the game.

 

I think when a lot of people, especially the Star Wars fans, say "Go play quake!", they're saying as much because they can't understand why you'd want to throw out the references to the source material while playing a Star Wars game. A game that is based on a license is about more than just the in-game abilities and weapons. It has to create the feel of its environment, too. I mean, let's say there was an Omaha Beach map for JK2, complete with bunkers, barbed wire, metal pylons sunk into the ground, etc. It sounds like a lot of folks would be perfectly fine playing in that environment, long as they had a laser sword and their force powers. If that's not the case, then why are so many people willing to trade off the immersion factor (which, for many of us, ruins the fun of the game) just to do a particular move?

 

There are plenty of ways to construct a game that rewards skill. And skill can also be seen as being the best at the tools your given. If you no longer have the ability to strafe jump, surely there are other ways to demonstrate one's skill in the game (IE: superior aim, reflexes, knowledge of what gun to use when, knowledge of the maps, etc.). I'm still curious as to why people are so stuck on keeping this particular aspect of the game intact.

[twl.Sphinx]

I think the majority of people do not care whether "bunny hopping around" looks dumb or not, and of that majority, most of them actually probably think it looks cool to see somebody with force speed flying across the maps. It has nothing to do with "immersion factor". The competitive community plays this game not for Star Wars, but because it's a FPS with a saber and force powers. Why the hell should we "go make a quake mod" when we can play this game without having to do that?

 

It would be stupid to remove strafe jumping from the game.

We should stop posting about strafe jumping now. "Immersion factor" is not a reason to take it out, it is not a bug, too many people like it, and most people that complain about it are people who don't know how to do it or aren't very good at it.

-Sphinx

[Solo4114]

Originally posted by twl.Sphinx

I think the majority of people do not care whether "bunny hopping around" looks dumb or not, and of that majority, most of them actually probably think it looks cool to see somebody with force speed flying across the maps. It has nothing to do with "immersion factor". The competitive community plays this game not for Star Wars, but because it's a FPS with a saber and force powers. {Emphasis added} Why the hell should people "go make a quake mod" when they can play this and have it without having to do that?

 

It would be stupid to remove strafe jumping from the game.

We should stop posting about strafe jumping now. "Immersion factor" is not a reason to take it out. Too many people like it.

-Sphinx

 

Ok, so you admit that you honestly don't care what game you're playing, what environment it's in, what stuff it references, long as it's got a sabre and force powers. At least, that's how I'm interpreting your comments there. Correct me if I'm wrong. I realize that many of the people who've posted in this thread have voiced similar concerns (probably even the majority in this thread), but I think you should REALLY be ready to be disappointed with what Raven gives you. There are many MANY more Star Wars fans out there that Raven is going to have to cater to if they want to sell copies of this game, and those folks are going to want a Star Wars experience within their FPS. They don't want an RPG, just an FPS that actually evokes a sense of playing within that environment. Sabres and force powers alone don't do it.

 

If that's what the competitive community wants, the competitive community will likely be marginalized by a whole host of Star Wars fans out there, and rightly so. Why the hell would you make a game about a particular license if the gameplay had only marginally to do with that licensed material? From a developer's standpoint and a publisher's standpoint, that'd be financial suicide. You'd get panned in reviews (I can see it now: "While this is fun to play, it really just feels like a glorified Quake mod."), the fans would end up not buying the product, and you probably wouldn't be tapped to develop another game from that license. If I was LEC and I was licensing my materials to a developer, and all they did was clone an existing game while adding in a few extra doo-dads, I wouldn't hire 'em again.

 

As far as the strafe jumping thing goes, I do agree that we should drop it at this point, since it seems to be like debating politics or religion: neither side will ever convince the other that they're right.

 

For my part, I hope that Raven focuses heavily on immersion, while simultaneously creating a fast-paced, action-packed, FUN game. But I (and I imagine a whole mess of other fans out there) definitely wouldn't buy another game that's essentially nothing but a quake mod with the force and sabres. That's not at ALL what I'm looking for. I still think that Raven can make a fun game that's good for competition, and casual play alike, and that also creates a sense of immersion in the Star Wars universe. There's no reason why you have to throw out the environment in which the game takes place to have fun gameplay. You can have both. Essentially, what I'm saying is that the competitive community is NOT in competition with the casual community or the Star Wars fans, or at least that they need not be. If Raven is smart and designs the game well, they can give us a game that allows for good competition and the "feel" of the Star Wars universe.

[alarm]

[EDIT Taos - I think you had better start changing your attitude around here alarm. Final warning.]

[Necrosis]

are you seriously saying that u think that the star wars nerds aka saberists outnumber the competitve players? We are only suggesting quake characteristics for gun player. Lets face it, I would rather play a good solid game, then worry about graphics or how everything looks. I take it your mainly a saberist anyway, so what do you care if strafe jumping is in there. It won't help out your saber battles very much. Honestly, I am ready for jk3 to be a bit of a dissipointment. But it doesnt sound like the gunplay will be dramatically different from jk2 to jk3 so I cant be THAT bad.

[Luc Solar]

Originally posted by Necrosis

are you seriously saying that u think that the star wars nerds aka saberists outnumber the competitve players?

 

Ummm...I'd say "Star Wars nerds" outnumber competetive players 500 to 1.

 

I'm also guessing that people who care about the "feel" and the "immersion" of the game outnumber you 10.000 to 1.

 

It doesn't feel like Star Wars when people are hopping around like bunnies. It doesn't feel like Star Wars when people are walking backwards hitting the ground with their saber (1.03). It wouldn't feel like star wars if you were shooting with a Mauser or a sawed-off shotgun.

 

It's not like it would destroy the game if some of the stuff that doesn't fit in the Star Wars universe is taken out.

 

Personally I don't have a problem with strafe jumping. With or without it people would force jump all over the place trying to avoid getting hit instead of "looking cool and acting like a real Jedi".

 

It's just a game, but giving players more of a Star Wars feel in JA is hardly a bad thing. I don't want to see a Limp Bizkit CD-cover lying around Nar Shaddaa.

[twl.Sphinx]

This thread has nothing to do with the "star wars nerds" or the non-competitive people. It has to do with Raven not neglecting our aspect of the game, in order that this game can have some semblance of longevity like quake does. We like many aspects of this game, and wish our opinions to be paid attention to.

 

Whether they somehow outnumber us 500 to 1 (an opinion which I do not believe is true) doesn't matter. If that were somehow true, then we probably play it 500x more than those people do anyway, because I can guarantee you that if that many people played this game, and they were all as good as we are and weren't a bunch of RPGing nerds, there would still be a widely active competitive community. As it is, there isn't anymore. We feel the reasons we have listed in this thread are the reasons that has happened, and we'd like to fix it. This game will not have longevity unless it can maintain a competitive community. If you want "Star Wars immersion", go buy Star Wars Galaxies when it comes out - don't play a FPS for it.

-Sphinx

[Break_dF]

Originally posted by twl.Sphinx

If you want "Star Wars immersion", go buy Star Wars Galaxies when it comes out - don't play a FPS for it.

-Sphinx

 

Holy ****, we have a winner.

[DeTRiTiC-iQ]

The thing is (and I probably speak for the rest of the competitive community here), "cool features" are nice and they make the initial few weeks of the game insanely fun. However after the first couple of months, the majority of these features will be ignored in favour of tricks or exploits to give players the edge in a game. JK2 suffered from this more than any other game i've played.

 

We don't want to ruin the Star Wars experience, but after the fiasco of JK2 we are EXTREMELY cautious about Raven adding too many new features without fixing what's already there.

 

I even think "ledge-grabbing" would be kind of fun, afterall it gives players another dimension in tricky jumps. I still voted "no" on the poll because I honestly feel it would over-complicate the game in ways that nobody can anticipate and probably end up causing a few exploits. After JK2 I sometimes feel the saber system would be better if all the stances and "special moves" were removed and we just had good old multplayer saber fights without exploitable complications.

 

Dozens of features ARE fun, but the gimmick dies quickly and the long-term players are more often than not left with an almost unplayable game. We aren't trying to ruin the fun for everyone else, we are trying to reduce the short-term gimmickery and improve the long-term playability.

[kazesan]

I bought JK2 because of the sabers. Period. It wasn't like all the other FPSes I've played where the punches or stun sticks did crap for damage and wern't even a liable source of damage. Yet the patches seemed to have degraded it to that level. Honestly the guns and the strafe jumping don't bother me cause that is waht makes a good FPS. I just wanted a powerful melee weapon as well. It didn't have to be a saber. If it was a sword or a stick or maybe even a golf clup I would have bought the game.

 

So guns should stay powerful but sabers should also be powerful. you risk alot getting in close range with an opponent so you should have a reward. Sabers should kill in one to two hits on someone with a gun. If your saber dueling it should be the same unless the person isn't attacking and is blocking your strikes. Most people either havn't heard of the mod promod or didn't like it but I thought it made the game so much better. Not because of the calsses or the jetpack but because of the saber system. the saber killed in 4 hits max when using yellow stance. It killed people with a gun in one. I say let gunners keep full force but make the saber just as good as a powerful gun. The saber doesn't have to be godly just powerful up close which is realistic. Gunners can simply jump back or dodge the saber and pound the saberist with bullets. problem solved. Also take out backstabs and special moves. they look cool in SP but in MP they break the game. All I want is balance between guns and sabers. Sabers should kill easy up close guns kill easy from far. Saber vs. Saber can be handled by either a block button or a promod system. ex. you crouch and you block attacks better but your attack goes down and you move slow. You move backwards your def goes up attack goes down. Move forward attack goes up def down. Jump attack def down attack up. Whoever has the better timing and skill wins. Honestly Raven it isn't that hard if numerous mods have put forth a better game effort and they don't even get payed.

 

In short guns-same

force-same (maybe push/ pull tweaked or less abusable maps)

sabers-no random block code and upped damage to compete with guns.

[Solo4114]

Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ

The thing is (and I probably speak for the rest of the competitive community here), "cool features" are nice and they make the initial few weeks of the game insanely fun. However after the first couple of months, the majority of these features will be ignored in favour of tricks or exploits to give players the edge in a game. JK2 suffered from this more than any other game i've played.

 

We don't want to ruin the Star Wars experience, but after the fiasco of JK2 we are EXTREMELY cautious about Raven adding too many new features without fixing what's already there.

 

I even think "ledge-grabbing" would be kind of fun, afterall it gives players another dimension in tricky jumps. I still voted "no" on the poll because I honestly feel it would over-complicate the game in ways that nobody can anticipate and probably end up causing a few exploits. After JK2 I sometimes feel the saber system would be better if all the stances and "special moves" were removed and we just had good old multplayer saber fights without exploitable complications.

 

Dozens of features ARE fun, but the gimmick dies quickly and the long-term players are more often than not left with an almost unplayable game. We aren't trying to ruin the fun for everyone else, we are trying to reduce the short-term gimmickery and improve the long-term playability.

 

I'm all for improving long-term playability, but one of the things that will do that for me is a sense of immersion. The reason I play this game, as opposed to quake or some other FPS, is because I want a Star Wars experience. I don't necessarily want to sit there, beat up monsters, gain levels, and get extra powers as a result. That'd be an RPG, and for that, I'd play KOTOR or SW:Galaxies. I'm not looking to role-play in this game.

 

I'm looking for a shooter where I can run around with Star Wars guns in Star Wars locations, use Star Wars force powers, and fight Star Wars sabre battles. To do that, you need immersion, plain and simple. I'm not saying toss gameplay out the window at all. Far from it. I wouldn't WANT this game to be 100% like the movies if that was going to destroy gameplay.

 

But let's consider a few things:

 

JK2 had fairly boring gameplay, at least for me. I'm not a big fan of DM style gameplay, as I've said plenty of times before. JK2 focused primarily on DM, and rather neglected CTF. The other variations of gameplay (duel, KTFY, Jedi Master, etc.) were simple variations on the DM theme and it got old REALLY quickly.

 

JK2 also didn't evoke a lot of the Star Wars universe. The levels were ok. Some of them were great, others were boring. I accept that in a game, though. The guns, well, they felt less like Star Wars guns on the whole and more like Quake guns or UT guns. If I want those, I'll go play Quake or UT, I won't play a Star Wars game. The sabre combat was screwy from the get-go, and never quite got it right, despite all the changes that were made. Things might have been fast in 1.02, but they were basically just jousting matches since there was almost no sabre collision. 1.03 had the backstab bug, which led to assfighters. 1.04 had nerfed sabres, nerfed guns, and nerfed force powers. The force powers themselves were also WAY too easy to spam. All of these things contributed a lack of immersion AND a lack of fun.

 

I don't want JA to be focused around the competitive community, if the competitive community is happy to use exploits and bugs to win and toss immersion out the window. I want a game that can appeal to the competitive community by being fun, granting them the opportunity to learn skills that will place them above the casual players, and that won't have random exploitable bugs. I'd much rather have a game where the demonstrations of skill come from mastering the game the way it was intended to be played.

 

I also want a game that creates an immersive Star Wars experience when I'm playing. I don't want to run around thinking "Yawn...another quake mod here..." I'd rather be focused around how I'm going to either whip out a blaster and blow away some other guy, or how I'm going to slice him to kibble with my sabre. I'd rather NOT be thinking, "Jesus, I wish they'd made a Star Wars game that actually had something to do with Star Wars."

 

I don't blame you for being cautious about Raven adding tons of doodads and gimmicky abilities, becuase, unless they actually add something to gameplay and provide real depth to the gameplay, they're going to get old fast. Honestly, I hope that JA is pretty far removed from many aspects of JK2 in this respect. JK2 was plagued by gimmicky moves, guns, and powers that were useless. This resulted in people being forced to use a VERY limited set of moves/guns/powers in order to kill quickly and efficiently, and often these moves/guns/powers were things that destroyed the immersion.

 

I want a game that has depth, not gimmicks, since I think that gimmicks will ultimately lead people to using exploits. Det, I think your idea about sabre combat is right on in many respects. "Super" moves, flashy attacks, etc. will either be spammed or ignored. That's why I think the sabre should be lethal for all attacks, regardless or the stance or the move you use. If you swing and connect, it will take no more than 3 hits to kill an enemy at 100 health. This would mean that there'd be no benefit in doing a gimmicky move, at least as far as damage goes. You could leave the moves in and have them be able to break or get around defenses better than others, but you could also leave the defenses able to be broken through other, less costly (or dangerous) moves.

 

By the same token, guns can be made more useful and still have the feeling of the Star Wars universe. You could bring back the concussion rifle. I always felt that gun, while incredibly powerful, still "felt" more Star Wars than, say, the secondary fire on the repeater. Likewise, the flechette gun could still be included, if the secondary fire was removed or changed (IE: it fires smaller exploding shells in a straight line, rather than the two bouncing balls o' death). Or you could remove the flechette altogether and make the missile launcher more of a smaller-scale, faster firing weapon to fill the void. The rate of fire on the E-11 could be upped all around, the Bryar could FINALLY be ditched for a DL-44 (Han Solo's pistol) and given a faster rate of fire, the bowcaster could be able to, say, fire different kinds of ammunition or penetrate defenses more easily than other guns, etc., etc. You could do plenty of things to keep the immersion factor AND speed up the killing and keep the fun factor high.

 

Ultimately, there doesn't HAVE to be this whole us vs. them attitude between the casual Star Wars gamer and the hardcore competitive gamer.

 

One other thing, though. (not directed at Det) Don't be surprised when Star Wars fans yell "Go play Quake!" when we're given the "Go play Galaxies" response. This game should be neither Quake nor Galaxies. It should be it's own entity, capable of providing the fast-paced, action-packed fun of Quake with an immersive experience in the Star Wars universe that makes it go beyond the level of a mere quake clone or TC.

[BloodRiot]

I think there's enough room for everybody... I dont call myself a competitive player nor a RPGer... i think im something in between cuz if i want a RPG i'll play a game fit for it... but I do, however, like 1 on 1 movie like duels.

 

I think that raven should focus on maintaining the true SW feeling and provide good gameplay and balance between saber and weapons so that they all depend on the same ammount of skill training and that every weapon has a shot vs the other whatever weapon it may be Saber vs saber, gun vs saber or gun vs gun.

 

I'm just trying to point out that you cant pick every gammer and stick them in the same server and make them all equally happen... face it.. it's not gonna happen.

 

Raven can do it's role which is what I refered above... good gameplay and balance. The rest is up to the server hosts that may call their own house rules to which every gammer must adhere or get lost... if there's a majority of RPG servers or competitive it's gotta do with the hosts.

 

Basically this discussion is pointless since both sides will stick to their point of views no matter what the other side thinks.

 

The best one can do is acknowledge that both his side and the other side exists and respect it even thogh you may not agree with them.

 

My advice is.. let Raven do a good balanced game that accomodates both sides and let the players do the rest... ppl can do whatever they want with the game.

 

If I was Raven... I'd totally ignore this thread and it's sugestion cuz quite frankly... I dont see anything that would help me decide which faction to favor... both sides contradict eachother... and i'd rather base myself on valid information called facts... use statistics and in case of doubt... go 50 - 50. But hey that's just me.

 

Now... before i start repeating myself... just remeber the first point of my thread if even give a damn about what i say... there's enough room for everybody.

 

Cheers to all.

[Necrosis]

Solo, your problem is that you need to play RPG games, no fps games. if your just in it for the star wars UNIVERSE, that may not be something jk2/3 will be very strong in. Maybe, its just that you want a lightsaber in your hand and your happy. But honestly I think your alot more worried about the eyecandy other than gameplay, which is what a fps needs

 

yes, I party agree with bloodriot but I think the main reason that this post was made because we (we= us competitve players) are worried that Raven will change things in the game based on suggestions from the "star wars nerds". and Imo all those people want/need is an RPG. Most of their suggestions would be great for an RPG, but could ruin a FPS.

 

 

^^ imo