the bible

[speck of dust]

I just finished reading the epic 10 page thread about the history of the universe. Very interesting stuff. I was going to add this at the end, but instead I'll start a new one.

 

I don't want to offend anyone's belief system here, but I ask a simple question: Why do so many people in an educated society still find the need to believe in a book that was written 5000 years ago? What is so special about it? It's a bunch of stories created by nomads to justify their own existence and create law and order and a moral standard.

 

How can anyone with sound mind and logic actually convince themselves that just because it's written in a book then it really happened? In a time when communication didn't have the luxery of technology to spread news around the world, most people never even left their village and would believe any story a traveler told them. Isn't it logical to assume that rumors and gossip could easily get out of hand when there's no way to confirm it? Thus the spread of religion. That's why there are so many different kinds of religions. How can anybody possibly convince themselves that 'THEIR' religion is the 'one and only correct' religion. IN reality, all religions are an attempt to answer the question: why are we here and what happens when we die?

 

This simple truth is: NOBODY KNOWS ANYTHING. We willl never know what happens when we die, UNTIL WE DIE. Period. Everything else is speculation and imagination. (Near Death Experiences are interesting to hear about, but again, no one can truly say what they are: the brain slowly turning off consiousness or the actual entrance into a higher dimension of spirits?)

 

5000 years from now our ancestors will find many books and stories written by us, will they hold them up as holy?

 

Perhaps they will. Imagine a situation where all society is destroyed in a war. (hmm...wonder how that could happen?)

All their books, their history, their technology, gone.

If the only thing that's left is a TV with Star wars playing in it, then those future people who figure out how to work it will think of this story they see as holy and the truth and will believe in the force. (not such a bad thing come to think of it, lol)....or they may find a book written in 1979 by someone who's convinced they were abducted by aliens, and then believe that person as a prophet! They'll have battles about faith and belief in this person, but no one will ever be able to verify it as the truth...(just as we can't with alien abductions today lol) It all sounds ridiculous, doesn't it? So why can't we apply that ridiculum to 5000 years ago? I mean come on, Moses went up to the mountain and God spoke to him the 10 commandments. God spoke??? why doesn't that happen now? Why could people part the red sea 5000 years ago, and turn water into wine and rocks into bread 2000 years ago, but no one can do anything remotely like that today? Anyone who goes up to a mountain and claims to hear god's voice will be considered crazy today. Just apply logic. Why would all this happen back then? What made those times so special? THe answer is what I said above: Without technology and communication to verify the truth, people in villages believed in anything. People believed that stuff happened, so they wrote it down, and now we believe it because they wrote it down, when the truth is nobody knows anything!

 

I understand the need to believe in SOMETHING. It's too mind boggling for many people to CONSIDER THE INFINITE POSSIBILITES of what the three dimensional universe really is and where human and animal life have purpose in that. But please, if there's a heaven, we're all going to it. Whatever creator there may be does not care about petty earthly disputes like money, stealing, infidelity, lying, or doubting the existence of something we have no proof of. One can even debate whether the creator cares if we kill each other or not. The creator lets animals in all walks of life kill each other, and bacteria kills us, so why should he care if we do it as well? Regardless, simple moral sense tells us that ending another life is wrong. Period. Our laws should always reflect that and we don't need the threat of hell to convince us. I don't want to be killed, therefore I don't want anyone else to be killed. End of story. Life in Jail or the death penalty is enough of a punishment in my mind. It would be nice and cool to think that murderers are also punished in the afterlife, but again, there's no proof. Any beliefs we have should be prefaced with "IT WOULD BE COOL IF...." because they're just beliefs. Not dogmatic truth.

 

Sorry for the rant, but in a world where religion continually starts wars and even our president believes God is on his side, thereby promising which soldiers go where when they're killed (a subtle form of jihad) this is relavent. Ideas and beliefs should be fun to talk about and speculate upon but never be worth killing over.

 

--dust

[Eldritch]

That was one hell of a bomb to drop for a first post, Dust. Welcome to the forums.

I agree with almost everything you said, except for the part where you said the universe is 3 dimensional. According to Einstein, it's 4-D.

Who can say why people choose to believe what they believe? Religious folk are nice people, even if they are a bit inflexible with their beliefs sometimes, and the vast majority of them are very tolerant of other beliefs and viewpoints. I think that religion has had as much of a positive impact on the world as it has negative, and its intentions are generally good - teaching folks how to treat others with respect, moral values, etc. For most people, religion provides hope and helps them to cope with the possibility that we are alone, and that there's another reason we're here other than a freak accident billions of years ago.

Neither science nor religion have yet been able to answer humanity's 2 main questions (the ones you brought up): What happens after we die? Why are we here?

Religion has provided several different answers for the first question, but has no proof that any explanation is correct. Anyone could make up any explanation they like, and it'd be no more or less likely to be true because we just don't know.

Science has been working on the second question, and they don't have an answer either. Right now it just seems to be a random series of events that resulted in our being here, but they're still working on it.

Religion would have us believe that there's some higher purpose for our being here, and I think that's due to our egos - we want to have purpose, and we seek any explanation we can for it. Religion provides that explanation, which clearly resulted in it's popularity (especially in ancient times). Now that we live in a more secular age, it becomes harder and harder to rationalize putting faith in a story which has many qualities of a children's fairy tale.

But like I said, for better or worse, religion provides hope and a reason for being for many people - and I think that is worth something, misguided as it may seem at times.

[/rant]

[speck of dust]

Thank you for welcoming me. I've only posted on Medal of Honor sites before. A friend who plays on my medal of honor server recommended I take a look at your forum. Great stuff. Right up my alley, being a science and spiritual buff. Science + Spirit is an equation I learned from the first movie I ever saw, which was Star Wars. The whole star wars mythology has meant more to me and taught me more than any religion under which I was raised with. I learned all the basics I need to know from those movies, as many in my generation have. Anyway, it appears I'm preaching to the chior with my thread...lol.....

 

And although there are who knows how many dimensions to the universe, the current physical one we can observe has just 3, the 4th being perhaps TIME, which as of right now is non-physical, although will probably prove to be otherwise in due... time...? lol

 

Anyway I just bought jedi outcast for my mac, and am loving the game. But I love all things Star Wars because of the IDEAS that existed in this galaxy so long ago and far away.

[dark jedi 8]

welcome to the forums, you'lle find that its really great here!

[hyk]

Before I begin I would like to say how glad I am that this has not turned into a sort of degrading argumentative, malicious conducted thread (thus far) and of the simple question absent of malevolent motive presented by dust. Moreover, in efforts to continue such an environment I present this:

 

"But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience…" - 1 Peter 3:15-16 NIV

 

So thus I hope the integrity of this thread be retained by all with gentleness and respect for all views.

To state first I am a Christian and would like to put in my perspective and comments. I hope to present what I know and understand to my fullest ability although I am no "Bible scholar". Also I think I'm pretty sound in logic and mind

 

Dust you have presented many good questions and to those good questions I hope I can provide some good answers. My algebra teacher was one of the most brilliant people I have ever met. He dove in the deepest realms of mathematics, physics and all other sciences. Now being a man of mathematics he was a Christian. In addition, in the world there are many scientists who are Christians, who are rational, who believe the Bible. In the notion which your opening question states is of why such people "still find the need" to believe in such a thing as the Bible. I will break that up into two parts of "Why believe in the Bible" and "Why people still believe it". Thumbing through the Bible, we can find numerous miracles and "impossible" and incredible things from water to wine to resurrection of Jesus. To the "rational" mind, how can one believe that this stuff is true? It contradicts science… Water cannot just "magically" turn into wine. No one can walk on water. That is physically impossible. It denies the laws of physics. Let us just focus on one "miracle" of Jesus' resurrection to begin. Jesus historically was a real person and his disciples were real. Christianity has a foundation that Christ was the Son of God and that he died for us and was resurrected. Now in the Bible, after Christ's resurrection, his disciples went out after witnessing that their Christ was alive and began to preach the gospel of Christ's death and resurrection. Excluding Judas, I think all 11 original disciples were martyred for their faith. Now let us think "logically". These disciples were going around telling the good news until one day for one of them, they were given this choice. Either deny your faith or die. Now if these disciples "made up" Jesus' resurrection, that it was all a lie… Why would they die for a lie? All eleven of them…Miracles do not "deny" science or contradict it. It is just that science cannot explain it. The famous duality of wave and particle properties is just non-intuitive. Science cannot explain why, but it happens. So why do people of this era still believe in the Bible? Even with all this science, etc. It is because it is the Word of God.

 

Now one of the harder questions is why only one way to Heaven? I will use the wonderful example a visitor pastor once preached (sorry I forgot who you were, but I still remember your message ). Let us say one and only cure was discovered for AIDS. Now who in the world would go and complain…"What? There is ONLY one cure? Bah…" No one would do that. The kicker here is though that in reality we do not deserved heaven, there should not have been a way to heaven, and Christ should not have died for us. However, because of God's amazing grace, compassion and love, He gave us a way to Him, because we could never do it on our own.

 

In addition, sorry to burst bubbles, but not everyone is going to heaven and just "good works" or being a "good person" does not get you there. By faith alone, as Paul says. Only through Christ. In addition, God's is not apathetic to our lives. He cares and is always there.

 

Finally to dust and others who are interested, I suggest getting a copy of Lee Strobel's "The Case for Faith", if you really want to investigate further upon these realms and maybe try and contacting a pastor in the area. In addition, Christianity is really about faith; there is nothing I can really do to "prove" this or that. Only if you give Jesus a chance will you see with a truly seeking and repentant heart.

 

Well I guess that is it for now. I guess my execution was a little winded, but I did not have too much time to edit this baby.

 

"I believe in God like I believe in the sunrise. Not because I can see it, but because I can see all that it touches" ~ C.S. Lewis

[Eldritch]

Wow. What are the odds that we get 2 new people to the Forum, each with opposing viewpoints? Maybe it has something to do with our quota. Welcome to the forums, Vahn. Enjoy your stay. And since you presented a number of good points, I would like to present what I hope are equally good counter-points.

Originally posted by Vahn_Fanelia

My algebra teacher was one of the most brilliant people I have ever met. He dove in the deepest realms of mathematics, physics and all other sciences. Now being a man of mathematics he was a Christian. In addition, in the world there are many scientists who are Christians, who are rational, who believe the Bible.

There are indeed many scientists who believe in the bible. However, to be a true scientist, you cannot be nailed down to any one belief, especially in the absence of proof. The nature of science is to examine all things and take into account all possibilities, then determine which are likely to be true based on empirical evidence. Without such evidence, no scientist would believe in the biblical account of creation or it's various other "miracles."

Thumbing through the Bible, we can find numerous miracles and "impossible" and incredible things from water to wine to resurrection of Jesus. To the "rational" mind, how can one believe that this stuff is true? It contradicts science… Water cannot just "magically" turn into wine. No one can walk on water. That is physically impossible. It denies the laws of physics.

You said it, pal. I've got no objections here.

Let us just focus on one "miracle" of Jesus' resurrection to begin. Jesus historically was a real person and his disciples were real. Christianity has a foundation that Christ was the Son of God and that he died for us and was resurrected. Now in the Bible, after Christ's resurrection, his disciples went out after witnessing that their Christ was alive and began to preach the gospel of Christ's death and resurrection. Excluding Judas, I think all 11 original disciples were martyred for their faith. Now let us think "logically". These disciples were going around telling the good news until one day for one of them, they were given this choice. Either deny your faith or die. Now if these disciples "made up" Jesus' resurrection, that it was all a lie… Why would they die for a lie?

Since we're looking at it from a historical perspective, it might interest you to learn that historically (i.e. backed by evidence) the Apostles had nothing to do with the writing of the New Testament, including all the gospels and such. They were written almost 100 years after the death (and supposed resurrection) of Christ. What this means, obviously, is that what they did and/or saw is not a first hand account, but at best is second hand and more realistically third or fourth hand. Just like with folk/fairy tales, a story can begin rooted in the truth and end up being magical or even miraculous. So we cannot trust what the Bible tells us as historical fact - after all, it's a bit biased, eh?

Miracles do not "deny" science or contradict it. It is just that science cannot explain it. The famous duality of wave and particle properties is just non-intuitive. Science cannot explain why, but it happens. So why do people of this era still believe in the Bible? Even with all this science, etc. It is because it is the Word of God.

Miracles do contradict science. You said it yourself - it denies the laws of physics. Science cannot explain many things, but that doesn't stop it from seeking an explanation. Religion (Christianity specifically) just says, "Well, it's the word of God," or "It's God's design," and never seek further clarification. Many people in this era still believe in the Bible because it's easier than waiting for science to figure out something not understood.

Now one of the harder questions is why only one way to Heaven? Let us say one and only cure was discovered for AIDS. Now who in the world would go and complain…"What? There is ONLY one cure? Bah…"

I think that's a bit of a oversimplification. That's totally based on somehow knowing for sure that your way is the right way. What are you basing that on? The Bible? If there is ever one cure for AIDS, there would be evidence that the cure works. It'd be based on proof, not faith.

No one would do that. The kicker here is though that in reality we do not deserved heaven, there should not have been a way to heaven, and Christ should not have died for us. However, because of God's amazing grace, compassion and love, He gave us a way to Him, because we could never do it on our own.

Again, this is based on Christianity somehow knowing it's right and all the other religions of the world are wrong. It's not the oldest, nor is it the most original (half of it, after all, is based on Hebrew Scripture... what you Christians call the Old Testament). I'm wondering how you know you're right.

In addition, sorry to burst bubbles, but not everyone is going to heaven and just "good works" or being a "good person" does not get you there. By faith alone, as Paul says. Only through Christ. In addition, God's is not apathetic to our lives. He cares and is always there.

I commented on this in other threads before, but I'll say it again. God cannot have unconditional love for all mankind, as has been written many times, and then place a condition on entering Heaven (i.e. - through Christ). And somehow I doubt that God would forsake the Jews... the ones who he made a covenant with, the ones who received the commandments, the ones who are the chosen people of God, the ones who he led out of Egypt... forsake them all suddenly because some people created a new branch of Judaism that he liked more? It just doesn't fit, and it goes back to the question of "How do you know you're right?"

Finally to dust and others who are interested, I suggest getting a copy of Lee Strobel's "The Case for Faith", if you really want to investigate further upon these realms and maybe try and contacting a pastor in the area. In addition, Christianity is really about faith; there is nothing I can really do to "prove" this or that. Only if you give Jesus a chance will you see with a truly seeking and repentant heart.

The majority of religions are about faith. How do you prove that you're right and others are wrong? If I choose the wrong one to have faith in, the compassionate God of the Christians will smite me into hell after my death.

 

Whew. Well, I'm eagerly awaiting your reply.

[speck of dust]

Very, very nice post vahn. Thank you for putting it the way you did.

 

I respect all that Jesus stands for. My mother raised me Roman Catholic, and being the first religion I was exposed to, it always has a soft spot in my heart. However, as i grew older, and started to explore the simple questions I had as a child, such as 'what was going on in the rest of the world during and before the time of Jesus, what did people in other cultures worship?'....So I studied the other religions, many of which are older than Christianity.

 

My question to you Vahn is were you raised a Christian, or did you come to find it through a divine experience, or did you choose it after studying it's roots and where it came from?

 

I'm just curious to know more of where you're coming from.

 

For myself, the logic of "just because I was raised a Catholic" doesn't mean it should be any more true to the universe. There are many others who are raised Bhuddist, or Hindu, or Hari Krishna, and the idealogies that were compounded into their young brains as children will forever effect how 'valid' the religion is to them and the world. My mother is and Italian American who was raised in New York by her immigrant parents, who instilled in her all that their culture revolves around the Catholic Church. She passed this down to me, and it all seemed to be 'the way things work' in my young malleable mind.

 

But again, if I was born in China, or Iran, or on a Native American Reservation, my initial lessons on god and religion would be completely different and feel just as 'true', based on my hypothetical 'chinese' or 'arabic' or 'native american' heritage.

 

Do you see what I'm saying? I know that many eschew this logic and simply say that 'faith' overrides all boundaries, pointing out the countless conversions to Christ that many cultures have taken to. (But remember that most mass cultural religious conversions were successful only through inquisitions, colonializations, and 'missions' that were more about conquest of land and money than about faith. particularly the horrific methods of conversion, through torture, or maiming, slavery...etc... But that is another topic, that does not need to be gotten into here. I am fully aware that those are gross abuses and misinterpetations of the core positive messages of religion)

 

I think that Faith and Truth are two very different things. Just because you believe something doens't mean it's 'true'. And I mean True in it's most objective sense. Santa Claus was true to me as a child, because I believed him. But was he the 'truth' to reality? (Reality is probably not even true to reality, because who's to say what the hell reality even is?)

 

I hope I'm in no way demeaning Jesus by comparing him to Santa (but hey, put a little weight and age on him, and they sure do look alike...lol)

 

But you see my point? I'm just trying to show you where I'm coming from, since you were grateful enough to post your view. I'm not trying to convince the converted, but my mind is open as I think everyone else's should be.

 

If Jesus were to physically come down to Earth tomorrow and said: "Okay enough screwing around you idiots. I'm here. Let's DO THIS!" I'd be right there ready and willing to give him all my faith.

 

But in this day and age, I see the chances of Extra Terrestrials landing on our planet are slightly more probable. So let me put a hypothetical out there for you. If, as i said, tomorrow E.T.'s landed on your lawn and said..."Humans are the product of our genetic experiments. We left you behind 5000 years ago and now we're back to see how you're faring."

 

What would you do? If they asked you to get on their ship and they'll show you the answers of the universe, would you believe them? Would you give them the chance?

 

All I'm saying is, all things being equal, ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE. My mind is as open to Jesus coming down as it is to Aliens or Bhudda or Bacteria.

 

If the fact that I have an open and creative mind means that I'm not getting into heaven, then God is simply not being fair. I'd say that to his face if I saw him. How could he give me a mind and expect me not to have fun by using it?

 

--dust

 

p.s.

 

I look foward to your reply.

 

p.p.s.

I must have posted this as Eldritch was posting his....(I pretty much seem to have reiterated his points....OPEN MINDS THINK ALIKE lol...)

[El Sitherino]

actually to the water to wine thing i once heard a very plausable theory to that. i cant remember it but it was very very possible. also people stop calling it the word of god. how do you know it's his word and not just some pcp addict writing down things after a trip? not saying they are just saying do you know god spoke to the authors while they wrote or have you heard god tell you yourself all these stories? if so if you are catholic or baptist you should ,according to the bible of your denomination, be put to death for hearing it before the pope, catholics, and the minister, baptists. isnt religious education fun

[munik]

Originally posted by InsaneSith

how do you know it's his word and not just some pcp addict writing down things after a trip?

Phencyclidine was first synthesized in 1926. That would be a clear indicator as to how you know it's not the writings of a pcp addict.

[El Sitherino]

Originally posted by munik

Phencyclidine was first synthesized in 1926. That would be a clear indicator as to how you know it's not the writings of a pcp addict.

well a drug addict of some sort then

[ET Warrior]

hmmm, I've alreayd debated my religious views TOO many times on this forum to even think about reading to uber long posts....sorry

[Kain]

Originally posted by ET Warrior

hmmm, I've alreayd debated my religious views TOO many times on this forum to even think about reading to uber long posts....sorry

 

Though ours are different, I couldn't agree more. For NooB, this guy was bold for starting ANOTHER one of these. Hope he dosen't wig out like some one ELSE who made a thread like this...

[Luc Solar]

Originally posted by ET Warrior

hmmm, I've alreayd debated my religious views TOO many times on this forum to even think about reading to uber long posts....sorry

 

Hehehe.. that goes for me as well. But it's cool to have fresh faces with fresh opinions debating.

 

I'll just watch.

[Reborn Outcast]

Well dust and vahn those were both good posts!

 

I am a Christian and I try real hard to be the right one to but... I've written at LEAST 2 pages of religious response in all the other threads so I'm spent.

[ShockV1.89]

I just hope nobody, you know, deletes the thread?

[Bonedemon]

Originally posted by Reborn Outcast

Well dust and vahn those were both good posts!

 

I am a Christian and I try real hard to be the right one to but... I've written at LEAST 2 pages of religious response in all the other threads so I'm spent.

 

You could make a link/reference to them......

[ET Warrior]

Well, he COULD, if somebody hadn't deleted the thread that had all his long well-thought out responses in it

[Mandalorian54]

Your still going on about that deleted thread.

 

 

 

Well I know why people believe what may seem as foolish stories to you. It's because science cannot explain our existence.

 

when you see a book you know it was written by someone, it didn't just come into existence. A scientific FACT is that somthing cannot come out of nothing.

[Kain]

Actually, science has done more of job than Genesis has. Tell me, Mandalorian. If God is everbeing, how did he become everbeing. Something cannot merely come into existance. Enlighten me as to how one all powerful being can come into being?

[El Sitherino]

Originally posted by MydnightPsion

Actually, science has done more of job than Genesis has. Tell me, Mandalorian. If God is everbeing, how did he become everbeing. Something cannot merely come into existance. Enlighten me as to how one all powerful being can come into being?

yeah what was here for this god to be here? *suddenly ceases to exist* son of a bitch!

[ShockV1.89]

Originally posted by MydnightPsion

Actually, science has done more of job than Genesis has. Tell me, Mandalorian. If God is everbeing, how did he become everbeing. Something cannot merely come into existance. Enlighten me as to how one all powerful being can come into being?

 

En garde!

 

But then, I'm likely being ignored...

[Kain]

Originally posted by ShockV1.89

En garde!

 

But then, I'm likely being ignored...

 

by whom, might I ask?

[Eldritch]

Mydnight, the very idea of an all powerful being who has always been here means that there was no one to create him/her. An eternal being would've always been here... It's a tough concept for some to get, but that's all there is to it - no one is needed to create the eternal being because they already existed, see?

 

And let's not be foolish about this and attack the other side as a way of prooving our own point(s). Don't mock the other side. Just argue your side - for example...

Originally posted by Mandolorian54

Well I know why people believe what may seem as foolish stories to you. It's because science cannot explain our existence.

I'd agree with that, but that doesn't stop science from trying to explain it. Just because they haven't solved it yet and religion thinks it has (without any hard evidence) isn't a good reason to throw it away.

[Kain]

A single being that existed since eternity was but a flicker of space and time? Excuse me if it sounds a bit...I dunno...childish? not that I mean to call anyone here childish. The existence of one omnipotent and supreme being just seems more along the lines of fantasy or hallucations of a race aspiring to cope with what couldn't be explained at the time. Heathens, heretics, all made by a church who wanted power. Sadly, they did get power through the kings of old times. And what happened to those who said 'The earth revolves around the sun and the earth isn't the center of the universe'? I'd say religion is a way to keep order in an otherwise chaotic world, which isnt a bad thing by any means. But even in the most eutopian society, you'll have that one person who dosen't believe God casts lightning at us from above, but its an electrice attraction, and lighting dosen't even come from above. I'd trust theories and fossils before I trust a 5000 year old manuscript that's seen more change than a chameleon running through a city.

[ShockV1.89]

Originally posted by MydnightPsion

by whom, might I ask?

 

It was a dig at M54. If you could read the huge thread that he deleted, you'd see he chose to ignore everything I said because I didnt try to prove every point I made with biblical verses. It's old news, and I probably shouldnt even bring it up. But I dont like him for it, and you asked.

 

Something had to start the universe, right? Maybe it was a god or supreme being of some sort, who knows?

 

But was it the christian/muslim god? I dont know. Like Mydnight said, the only real thing we could go by is a 5000 year old book. I, quite frankly, dont trust that book, especially when you consider the fact that it was written by man, who is inherently imperfect. Whats thatn you say? They were inspired to write by God, you say? In that case, I refer you to Muniks sig. Think God said that to me? Prove he didnt.

 

Nuff said.