Eldritch Posted April 9, 2003 Share Posted April 9, 2003 Originally posted by Thrackan Solo Christians dont believe in evolution , and maybe he could get a better view if he reads this book You getting paid to promote that book or something? Give it a rest, man. People will read it if they want to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thrackan Solo Posted April 9, 2003 Share Posted April 9, 2003 hey man I apologized sorry man you want to sacrifice me or something;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTeddyPaul Posted April 9, 2003 Share Posted April 9, 2003 You don't have enough meat on you. Sorry. EDIT TO RESPONSE BELOW: Funny man. Funny man. BigTeddyPaul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thrackan Solo Posted April 9, 2003 Share Posted April 9, 2003 *looks at chiseled body* I guess your right no meat only muscle:D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pisces Posted April 10, 2003 Share Posted April 10, 2003 Originally posted by BigTeddyPaul Ohhhh. Most Christians believe in evolution. Bold statement. Must be a regional thing because I have found quite the opposite. People refute evolution in Christianity as far as I know. Some believe that God uses evolution to help create us but bunches still believe we have always been like this. I am interested to see responses to that comment. BigTeddyPaul I believe in the 'half-way' point. There's somewhere where religion and evolution (science) had to meet. My vote, just before th big bang. God started it off then sat back and watched the universe. EDIT: Damn, forgot to actual say I was Christian...I'm Christian. Catholic if you want to get specific. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speck of dust Posted April 10, 2003 Author Share Posted April 10, 2003 All of this stuff is fine, whether or not god got the big bang rolling or stirred the first soup of evolution, those are cool ideas that can be debated or believed. But my biggest beef is that if you say you are a Christian or Catholic or whatever various branch you worship, then you're saying that only you and your kind have an exclusive ticket to the afterlife, while the rest of us are doomed to rot in hell or purgatory or on Heavens front lawn (way outside the gates). That's the concept I despise. That God would rest the fates of all our souls on whether or not we believe an inconsistant poorly translated extremely subjective history book sounds extremely suspect, implausible, and very human, to me. The universe isn't the NFL, where only one predestined team wins the superbowl. The idea that only the chosen and faithful few go to heaven is such a ridiculously elitist concept, a 'master race' of faith. If that's the case, then I summon Zeus and the rest of the polytheisitic titans to give your god a good fight in a game that he can't fix. As lowly and human (and funny) as a multi deitic rumble sounds, so does your christian monopoly on the afterlife sound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTeddyPaul Posted April 10, 2003 Share Posted April 10, 2003 Few points in regards to previous statements: Personal belief from a Christian perspective: You believe Jesus died for your sins and accept him as your personal savior you are in. IF YOU HONESTLY believe that and follow that you are going to heaven. That is the bottom line. Nothing else really matters what you did. Lets say though that at age 18 you do this and at age 40 you are the opposite. That is like landing on go to jail and negates your earlier actions. Catholics do fall in the believing in Jesus category and thus go to heaven. Jews do not because they do not believe that Jesus was God's son. Kind of ironic that God's people don't get in isn't it. Those are my beliefs. Now what you also said was polytheism which was in another missing thread. Now this is interesting. If you look at the Bible and the Christian faith it is yet is not monothiestic. There are polythiestic principles with the whole Holy Trinity thing going on. Most scholars believe this was to help get members from many pagan religions to join. It was sort of like a compromise to those who wanted to follow more than one god. I am being very breif in this but that is the gist. It also sounds like you want to talk a little about predestiny and fate and the like according to the all powerful God who can control all. That subject I am not touching again as most people know my views. I am sure someone will go into it with you though. BigTeddyPaul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homuncul Posted April 10, 2003 Share Posted April 10, 2003 Um... what model Ferrari has a back seat? Mondial 1982 ,for instance, the best. The Mondial 8s are considered one of the most reliable Ferraris. There're others... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandalorian54 Posted April 10, 2003 Share Posted April 10, 2003 In response to some of all the posts: The Bible was not just a history book by men, that is only your philosaphys(I have a feeling that's spelt wrong.) The Bible says that the Bible is God's word, that God physically told some such as Moses what to write, and others through the Holy Spirit. In case you havent read it, you can see in the new testament, that what they say and what has happened was predicted in the old testament(some of it anyway, not all) And the Bible does not contradict itself. There are parts that may seem contradictory, but if you study it carefully you can desifer the significance and similarity. And these people did not have access to each others manuscripts, and most of them never met each other. Some manuscripts miraculously survived 2 thousand years in a cave before being found. And in those manuscripts can be found references of futer and past events coinciding with other parts of the Bible. As for christianity, I see there are alot of different views, well I believe christianity in it's origional state. The solid foundations Jesus set through the Bible. I almost can't understand why people go off believing some of these wierd things, like God set evolution in motion. Why do you believe that? do any scriptures tell of evolution? did some wise man claim God told him in a dream? Basicly, I am just curiouse, I have never really been told why some people believe some things. So why do you believe that God set evolution in motion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kain Posted April 10, 2003 Share Posted April 10, 2003 How can someone have faith in a book written by man that says its the word of an all-powerful God that has been changed more than enough times over the past 5000 years? If I wrote a book and said 'God told me to write this and say it is His word', would anyone believe me? NO. The reason the Bible was believed in was because back in the day people needed explinations for what they feared or couldn't explain with VERY early alchemy. And then, people needed an excuse for power, so they claimed that this all powerful being gave them divine rights over man, and that their word is the word of God. And now, we have our Freedom of Religion, thought up BY Christians, and yet nowadays, it seems most Christians wouldn't want you to express any kind of will over who or what you do and don't worship. If we don't worship THEIR God, we go to THEIR Hell. And about Hell, why is Hell in existance? Simply put, to put fallen angels and sinners to punishment. Now, who was the first fallen angel? Lucifer. Okay, now then, what did Lucifer want? He wanted to be God. So, what does God do for Lucifer's insubordination? Sends him to Hell, where Lucifer rules over fallen souls...whereas God rules over 'elevated' or 'righteous' souls. Hm, lets look at this again...*elevator music while you re-read it*...seems like all God did was give Lucifer his wish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reborn Outcast Posted April 10, 2003 Share Posted April 10, 2003 Ok, about the evolution thing... This is my personal belief and by no means does any other Christian have to agree with me. I believe that God let evolution happen as well as he created all living things. BUT!!!!!!!!!!! I also believe that Christians should NOT spend all their time bickering about if God did or if he didn't. Isn't the purpose of the Bible to bring Christains to a deeper and more intimate relationship with God such as showing how much he loved us? Isn't it to show non-believes about how much he loves us? Do you think that someone who is interested in becomeing a Christian really cares about the evolution or creationalism debate? No, they care about understnading why God loves us the way he does and what has he done for them that would make them love HIM. Does God want us to concentrate on the evolution vs. creationism debate or does he want us to focus on having a deeper relationship with him? I think it is the latter. Originally posted by Mandolorian54 I almost can't understand why people go off believing some of these wierd things, like God set evolution in motion. Why do you believe that? do any scriptures tell of evolution? did some wise man claim God told him in a dream? In the Bible, Genesis, it says God created all the living things correct? It is now apparent by fossil evidence that some animals such as the modern day lion, were not around a while ago, while ANCESTORS of that lion were. I know Samuel or someone kills a lion but we're talking farther back than that. I believe that, yes, God created all the living things but he created them differently than they are today, and let the ADAPT to whatever their environment was. Take the flood for instance... the environment after the flood went down was probably a LOT different than it was before the flood... so, it is safe to assume that God let those animals adapt to their new environment. And yes, it can go either way, since the Bible does not state explicitly that evolution did or did not happen, why would it be wrong for Christians to have different views on that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShockV1.89 Posted April 10, 2003 Share Posted April 10, 2003 I dont know why I'm bothering here... I'll just be ignored. But I just love picking apart your posts... The Bible was not just a history book by men, that is only your philosaphys(I have a feeling that's spelt wrong.) The Bible says that the Bible is God's word, that God physically told some such as Moses what to write, and others through the Holy Spirit. First off... ok, so you believe that the bible is a history book. Right, I disagree, but whatever. I take issue with the second part of this quote. "The Bible says that the Bible is Gods word..." Do you see the bad logic here? I could use it again here "I'm right. Why? Because I said so." I didnt believe it when my sister said it, and I dont believe it now. I almost can't understand why people go off believing some of these wierd things, like God set evolution in motion. Why do you believe that? do any scriptures tell of evolution? did some wise man claim God told him in a dream? I pose a counter question. Does it have to be said in the scriptures to have any authenticity? Do wise men have to dream up everything in order for it to be true? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speck of dust Posted April 10, 2003 Author Share Posted April 10, 2003 Okay, now this is interesting. You should really look into the history of how and when the new testament was actually written. The emperor of Rome, Constantin, was concerned that Rome was losing a foothold as the all powerful empire and that all these polytheistic religions were separating people. So it wanted to adopt a monothesitic religion that was the official religion of rome that everyone could unite under. All descisions that are made to decide what rules are 'Canon' were beaurocratically made. There was a huge committe that decided on what went into the New testament and what didn't. That's why it's the only religion that's structured like a government, with priests, and bishops, and cardinals, and finally the pope. The gospels were written long after Jesus had already died, and they took the best four that correlated with what the old testament predicted. Like a Hollywood screenplay, they were shaped and formed and re-written, until it was decided it was finished. In fact one can simply study history and research to find out what other cultures and religions influenced these writers of the new testament. I say this not as an offensive non believer, but as an objective student of all religion. I just want to share with you some examples of similar Christ like stories, that existed hundreds to thousands of years before Jesus: (these are facts, they don't require faith) Buddha Although most people think of Buddha as being one person who lived around 500 B.C., the character commonly portrayed as Buddha can also be demonstrated to be a compilation of godmen, legends and sayings of various holy men both preceding and succeeding the period attributed to the Buddha. The Buddha character has the following in common with the Christ figure: * Buddha was born of the virgin Maya, who was considered the "Queen of Heaven." * He was of royal descent. * He crushed a serpent's head. * He performed miracles and wonders, healed the sick, fed 500 men from a "small basket of cakes," and walked on water. * He abolished idolatry, was a "sower of the word," and preached "the establishment of a kingdom of righteousness." * He taught chastity, temperance, tolerance, compassion, love, and the equality of all. * He was transfigured on a mount. * Sakya Buddha was crucified in a sin-atonement, suffered for three days in hell, and was resurrected. * He ascended to Nirvana or "heaven." * Buddha was considered the "GoodShepherd", the "Carpenter", the "Infinite and Everlasting." * He was called the "Savior of the World" and the "Light of the World." Horus of Egypt Not many people even know of Horus, but the stories of he and Jesus are strikingly similar. Horus and his once-and-future Father, Osiris, are frequently interchangeable in the mythos ("I and my Father are one"). The legends of Horus go back thousands of years predating Christ, and he shares the following in common with Jesus: * Horus was born of the virgin Isis-Meri on December 25th in a cave/manger, with his birth being announced by a star in the East and attended by three wise men. * He was a child teacher in the Temple and was baptized when he was 30 years old. * Horus was also baptized by "Anup the Baptizer," who becomes "John the Baptist." * He had 12 disciples. * He performed miracles and raised one man, El-Azar-us, from the dead. * He walked on water. * Horus was transfigured on the Mount. * He was crucified, buried in a tomb and resurrected. * He was also the "Way, the Truth, the Light, the Messiah, God's Anointed Son, the Son of Man, the Good Shepherd, the Lamb of God, the Word" etc. * He was "the Fisher," and was associated with the Lamb, Lion and Fish ("Ichthys"). * Horus's personal epithet was "Iusa," the "ever-becoming son" of "Ptah," the "Father." * Horus was called "the KRST," or "Anointed One," long before the Christians duplicated the story. In fact, in the catacombs at Rome are pictures of the baby Horus being held by the virgin mother Isis - the original "Madonna and Child" - and the Vatican itself is built upon the papacy of Mithra, who shares many qualities with Jesus and who existed as a deity long before the Jesus character was formalized. The Christian hierarchy is nearly identical to the Mithraic version it replaced. Virtually all of the elements of the Catholic ritual, from miter to wafer to water to altar to doxology, are directly taken from earlier pagan mystery religions. Mithra, Sungod of Persia The story of Mithra precedes the Christian fable by at least 600 years. According to historians, the cult of Mithra was, shortly before the Christian era, "the most popular and widely spread 'Pagan' religion of the times." Mithra has the following in common with the Christ character: * Mithra was born of a virgin on December 25th. * He was considered a great traveling teacher and master. * He had 12 companions or disciples. * He performed miracles. * He was buried in a tomb. * After three days he rose again. * His resurrection was celebrated every year. * Mithra was called "the Good Shepherd." * He was considered "the Way, the Truth and the Light, the Redeemer, the Savior, the Messiah." * He was identified with both the Lion and the Lamb. * His sacred day was Sunday, "the Lord's Day," hundreds of years before the appearance of Christ. * Mithra had his principal festival on what was later to become Easter, at which time he was resurrected. * His religion had a Eucharist or "Lord's Supper." Krishna of India The similarities between the Christian character and the Indian messiah are also many. In fact, a common earlier English spelling of Krishna was "Christna," which reveals its relation to '"Christ." It should also be noted that, like Jesus, many people have believed in a historical, carnalized Krishna. * Krishna was born of the Virgin Devaki ("Divine One") * His father was a carpenter. * His birth was attended by angels, wise men and shepherds, and he was presented with gold, frankincense and myrrh. * He was persecuted by a tyrant who ordered the slaughter of thousands of infants. * He was of royal descent. * He was baptized in the River Ganges. * He worked miracles and wonders. * He raised the dead and healed lepers, the deaf and the blind. * Krishna used parables to teach the people about charity and love. * "He lived poor and he loved the poor." * He was transfigured in front of his disciples. * In some traditions he died on a tree or was crucified between two thieves. * He rose from the dead and ascended to heaven. * Krishna is called the "Shepherd God" and "Lord of lords," and was considered "the Redeemer, Firstborn, Sin Bearer, Liberator, Universal Word." * He is the second person of the Trinity, and proclaimed himself the "Resurrection" and the "way to the Father." * He was considered the "Beginning, the Middle and the End," ("Alpha and Omega"), as well as being omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent. * His disciples bestowed upon him the title "Jezeus," meaning "pure essence." * Krishna is to return to do battle with the "Prince of Evil," who will desolate the earth. There are many others, but those are the most popular and accessable. I implore you to look at other historical records, just to get all the facts about the times and conditions under which the Bible was written and who influenced what. Just as Mandalorian says that the Bible doesn't contradict itself if you study it hard enough, none of the other religions really condradict the Bible if you study them hard enough. In fact it's clear, they influenced it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thrackan Solo Posted April 10, 2003 Share Posted April 10, 2003 Horus was born of the virgin Isis-Meri on December 25th in a cave/manger How can it be a cave/manger? And why are you so adament about trying to prove their is no god? Does it frighten you that there might be a omnipresence that knows and is more powerful than you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speck of dust Posted April 10, 2003 Author Share Posted April 10, 2003 Cave, meaning a dirty un-royal place to be born, just like the manger was. And why would you equate my questioning the Jesus story as me being a afraid of God? The existence of God does not depend upon the physical existence of Jesus, that much is clear. It's not the existence of God that I'm disputing, it's the written words of men who claim to 'know' God I dispute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShockV1.89 Posted April 11, 2003 Share Posted April 11, 2003 Well said, Speck. Your questioning basically follows my own. People often seem to interpret questioning the Bible as disbelief in God. They dont see that one can simply not know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kain Posted April 11, 2003 Share Posted April 11, 2003 Originally posted by Thrackan Solo Does it frighten you that there might be a omnipresence that knows and is more powerful than you? Does it frighten you and other Christians that there might NOT be an omnipresence that knows and is more powerful than you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eldritch Posted April 11, 2003 Share Posted April 11, 2003 Speck, despite that overwhelming well written post and fantastic list of facts a mile long, I have a feeling some of the Christians here are going to either use the excuse that Shock described (You're wrong because I say so) or they're going to attack the validity of the science behind it. Or, they'll avoid countering it and ask you a question that has no bearing on the topic, like Thrackan. Like yourself, I'm a seeker of truth - that pursuit has led me to study many different types of faith and belief systems, and as a result I feel I have tolerance and an open mind for all different types of religion/belief systems. Funny that the Bible, which teaches tolerance of other faiths as one of it's messages, is a trait not found in many Christians (but not all). Most Christians have never bothered to study the history of the Bible (or any religious text, for that matter). To add to what you said, even before Constantine, Christians were incorporating parts of other belief systems in order to attract more people to convert. Mandalorian - Those 2,000 year old scrolls you're talking about that were recovered? I believe you're referring to the Dead Sea Scrolls. Interesting that you should bring that up, because the public has never seen them. The reason that we likely won't (if the church hasn't gotten rid of them already) is that they probably contain an earlier version of the Bible than has not undergone all the various revisions and edits and additions the modern Bible has, and contains information that contradicts or upsets the continuity of the current Christian religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speck of dust Posted April 11, 2003 Author Share Posted April 11, 2003 Thank you Eldritch and Shock... Look I don't want to burst anyone's bubble here. Believe anything that feels right to you. I just like to peel the onion all the way before I commit my tears, know what I'm saying? Religion and science used to be intertwined. But science jumped far ahead because it's core maxim is to admit when it was mistaken and adapt to what is experimentially proven to be right. And since science is constantly poking holes in it's own conclusions, it's constantly changing and adapting it's laws. Changing and adapting are the two key components of GROWTH. Whether or not you believe in evolution on a grand scale, it's proven on a short term day to day basis that's how human beings grow, by changing and adapting. Whether it's their technology, or artistry, or their attitude, human beings progress by adapting new discoveries. I believe that religion should do the same. There are plenty of Scientists who get stuck in their ways and refuse to believe they're completely or even slightly wrong. I think that's bad science. And when religion refuses to bend or adapt, that's (dare I say) bad religion... The truth is I wish the world was simple enough where a savior would come down and show humanity how to evolve into enlightened and loving divine beings. Or in star wars language, where there shall be ONE who will restore balance to the force. And who knows, maybe there is? I'll tell you what, if or when he ever comes, the first thing he'll do is educate himself with all the cultures and histories he can find, so he can do his job better. Because saving God's creatures means understanding them all, and not cutting anyone out. I think I've said all i can on this topic for now. Time to give my lightsaber a rest, lol. Again I mean not to offend but to share what I've learned and what I'm continually discovering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ioshee Posted April 11, 2003 Share Posted April 11, 2003 Originally posted by speck of dust ...But my biggest beef is that if you say you are a Christian or Catholic or whatever various branch you worship, then you're saying that only you and your kind have an exclusive ticket to the afterlife, while the rest of us are doomed to rot in hell or purgatory or on Heavens front lawn (way outside the gates). That's the concept I despise... The last I heard the official word from the Catholic Church is that they think almost any religious person is going to heaven. What I don't understand is why people who think you are going to hell offend you. If you don't believe what they are saying then how can you be offended? It just seems like you are awfully hung up on a group of people you don’t have any respect for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted April 11, 2003 Share Posted April 11, 2003 This is great.... I go on holiday for a week, and in the meantime three cool people and a cool thread appears. Damn. Where are my stand-ins when I need them? Skin? Wacky? Templar? Anyway, great debate - keep it rolling until I get home, 'kay? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eldritch Posted April 11, 2003 Share Posted April 11, 2003 Originally posted by ioshee The last I heard the official word from the Catholic Church is that they think almost any religious person is going to heaven. What I don't understand is why people who think you are going to hell offend you. If you don't believe what they are saying then how can you be offended? It just seems like you are awfully hung up on a group of people you don’t have any respect for. If you read his posts carefully, Speck has stated that he has great respect for all the different religions (and has studied them in-depth). But the behaviour of some of the followers and the way they choose to tell others that unless they accept Jesus they're going to hell comes off as a little self-rightious (sp?). Saying that indirectly implies that "I am right and you are wrong," and since hell isn't supposed to be a nice place, I'd take someone telling me that I'm going there as an insult, so why wouldn't I be offended? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ioshee Posted April 11, 2003 Share Posted April 11, 2003 I understand a little better now. So you might not believe in trolls but if someone called you one it would be offensive right? Because trolls are not supposed to be nice? That makes sense if that is what you mean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thrackan Solo Posted April 11, 2003 Share Posted April 11, 2003 Self - righteous and why dont you critcize Muslims for calling "non-muslims" infidels? Isnt that self -righteous? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShockV1.89 Posted April 11, 2003 Share Posted April 11, 2003 Originally posted by Thrackan Solo Self - righteous and why dont you critcize Muslims for calling "non-muslims" infidels? Isnt that self -righteous? That's very deserving of criticism. I dont think it's a question that thats an offensive and self-righteous thing to say. What's your point, exactly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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