Saber blocking, manual, or automatic?

[Matariel]

i want it to be manual, and depend on where you aim. you must block each saber attack with a directional press of your block or 'defence' key, similar to the way you attack. A correct block means 100% damage blocked, if you're too slow or go the wrong side, theres a percentage damage depending on the situation, only if you dont block at all you get 100% damage

[MuRaSaMuNe]

Implementing a counter to a button instead of a block would make it worth-wile for saber fights.

[ArtifeX]

I think something everyone's overlooking with the whole manual blocking issue is internet lag. With most of the systems described here, you've not only got to see your opponent swinging, but you have to know precisely which attack he's doing, judge the distance between you and him, and then hit the so-called "block" button at the right time. With a ping of 100ms (pretty common) and a standard human reflex reaction time of 100ms, then that attack is going to be 200ms along its path long before you even begin to process what to do about it.

[Prime]

Originally posted by ArtifeX

I think something everyone's overlooking with the whole manual blocking issue is internet lag. With most of the systems described here, you've not only got to see your opponent swinging, but you have to know precisely which attack he's doing, judge the distance between you and him, and then hit the so-called "block" button at the right time. With a ping of 100ms (pretty common) and a standard human reflex reaction time of 100ms, then that attack is going to be 200ms along its path long before you even begin to process what to do about it.

A very good point.

 

Originally posted by t3rr0r

well, i was just giving some numbers for examples... they could be as different as 10% (chance not blocking), 20%, and 30%...

It would certainly need some good play testing to find out what good numbers might look like...

[Solo4114]

Originally posted by Prime

It would certainly need some good play testing to find out what good numbers might look like...

 

All the more reason why Raven/Lucasarts should release a multiplayer demo BEFORE the game hits the stores. And one of the main reasons why I'll be waiting for both SP and MP demos prior to buying the game. I want to make DAMN sure that Raven gets it right on both accounts before I plunk down my cash this time. And review magazines/websites will likely just hype the game. "It's got incredible new graphics!" "You can fight a Rancor! Cool!" "You can use two sabres or a dual-bladed sabre! Cool!" "You can combine force powers! Neato!" "Any Star Wars fan who plays this game for only 10 hours over a 5 day period will love this game for all time! I SWEAR!!"

[JaledDur]

Originally posted by ArtifeX

I think something everyone's overlooking with the whole manual blocking issue is internet lag. With most of the systems described here, you've not only got to see your opponent swinging, but you have to know precisely which attack he's doing, judge the distance between you and him, and then hit the so-called "block" button at the right time. With a ping of 100ms (pretty common) and a standard human reflex reaction time of 100ms, then that attack is going to be 200ms along its path long before you even begin to process what to do about it.

 

And also once you press your block button, the server has to register that you did so, which will introduce even more lag. For those of you concerned with manual blocking for the sake of introducing a new factor to the game, or for better showing skill in game, I suggest you try ProMod... which it appears many of you either haven't tried or don't like. If the latter, I don't know why -- it adds some nice complexity to the game in a way that is simple to understand and seamlessly integrated into the game.

[Prime]

Apart from lag, I really don't see how having a block button is really going to change things. Whenever someone isn't attacking, they are going to be holding down the block button. Isn't that exactly the same as auto-blocking is now? The only thing different is that you are holding down a button the whole time.

 

What do people expect will be different by adding a block button?

[Solo4114]

See, that's why I think a block button itself wouldn't do it. It'd be better to leave autoblocking (although modify it so you can't do it forever and against every stance), and have a button that you can hit to PARRY. This would require you to appropriately time the parry, then follow up with a counter-attack.

[toms]

what you need to do is make repeated blocking more difficult. Have either a minimum time between blocks that goes up with repeated blocks, or a percentage chance of blocking that goes down with repeated blocks.

 

This would reset slowly over time when not blocking.

 

Then have an attacking move reset this blocking time/chance.

 

That way people have to block then attack, then block strategically.

 

A possible enhancement would be for the scale of the effect on the blocking delay/chance to be related to the strength of the blow... so a powerful blow that was blocked would reduce their chances of blocking the next blow... meaning a quick attack might get through.

 

-----

 

Personally i think the second button should be used for either:

 

-kicks, (in all directions)

-directional blows (in all directions, while the first button does frontal attacks)

-alternate speed attacks... so in the red stance it would do a quick, light attack, but in the blue stance it would do a strong, slow attack. (it would be nice to be able to vary strengths and speeds on the fly, rather than changing stances)

[Wavey Davey]

Saber throw is actually used twice in the movies.

 

Vader, as everyone knows about and might i add that that was not ineffective because he wasn't trying to kill luke he was destroying the thing he was stood on.

 

Dooku uses it when he fights Yoda in AotC, just as yoda does his bouncing off the wall act, dooku's saber narrowly misses him when he throws it.

[Solo4114]

Toms, check the post I made earlier in the thread (the really LONG one). I described a potential system where blocking ability reduces over time and where the ability to string moves together in a combo gives a greater likelihood of breaking defenses.

[Prime]

Originally posted by Wavey Davey

Saber throw is actually used twice in the movies.

Allow me to retort...

 

Originally posted by Wavey Davey

Vader, as everyone knows about and might i add that that was not ineffective because he wasn't trying to kill luke he was destroying the thing he was stood on.

This has been discussed at great length, and I don't want to go through that again here. But lets look at what we actually see, and go from there. What we see is Vader toss his lightsaber at the walkway Luke is on. There is no evidence that Vader is using the Force to guide his lightsaber to the target. Much more likely, he is just physically throwing it, like you or I could. Secondly, we do not see the saber fly back neatly into Vader's had right after he throws it. Certainly, he could easily call it back after he has thrown it, but the movies show no evidence that Jedi/Sith/whatever throw their lightsabers, guide them to their target, and immediately pull them back before they hit the ground.

 

Originally posted by Wavey Davey

Dooku uses it when he fights Yoda in AotC, just as yoda does his bouncing off the wall act, dooku's saber narrowly misses him when he throws it.

Check again, the scene I believe you are refering too, when Yoda hops up and around on the wall, we see the tip of Dooku's saber zip buy. I think it is quite clear that Dooku is just taking a swing at Yoda, not throwing his saber at him.

 

Or are you refering to something else?

[boinga1]

By manually blocking, do you mean *hold down a button and block whatever comes your way* or *hit a button to block every individual shot*? And btw I don't think that a system where blocking probability decreases is good because that would make the Imperial Heavy Repeater and E-11 Blaster too powerful. People could just sit there and repeat at you until your blocking chance went down far enough that you could easily be killed. I like blocking the way it is; I say, don't change it.

[Silent_Thunder]

People would NOT be holding the block button down the whole time their not attacking. No, the block button (which would surely be the right mouse key), when pressed would bring the saber up in a defensive position, enabiling AUTO blocks to be more succesful. The longer the saber is up in the block position the more force power is used, and the less success you have with deflecting an attack. Therefore, it would be logical to assume that most people would attempt to time thier blocks just right when being shot at, or seeing an obviously-telegraphed saber swing. At other times players would rather hold down the block button, even though it may not be quite as effective as timing it just right -- for example; succesful blocking of repeater fire would defiantly need the Jedi to hold the block key down.

 

So, in the end 'manual' blocking (it STILL is auto blocking, in reality) would merely be in place to make blocking JUST if not MORE effective than before, but requir more skill than just standing still and waiting...

 

Actually, after some thought, this is how I think the blocking should work:

 

When your character is not attacking you have a good chance of blocking attacks that are launched at, or very close to your saber. This is just a weaker version of the auto blocking we currently see. All deflected shots fly off in random locations, and do not home in on the attacker.

 

When you hold down the right mouse key your character goes into a more defensive position. While in this position you will have a chance to block attacks that come at you from any direction. The farther away from your saber an attack comes, the less likely it is for you to block it. The longer you hold down the block key the less likely for a succesfuly block you will have. Therefore a quick tap of the block key would be most effective -- but it would require much more timing, especially in lightsaber duels. When deflecting a laser or other projectile the deflected projectile will be launched at the NPC that is closest to where your recticle is pointing. It wouldn't require perfect aiming to deflect a shot... it would simply be reflected to the NPC that the Saber Blocking system detects you are targeting.

 

While holding down the saber block the jedi moves slower, uses up force power, and exhausts the success rate of blocking.

 

When a player succesfully blocks another player with a lightsaber the one who is blocked is slightly penalized for a brief moment. The one who is blocked has his saber slightly pushed out of the way, making a counter block harder to accomplish (since it's farther away). This would not be an artificial penalty, but merely one that is logical since the saber is farther away. The farther away a saber is knocked away would depend on how long the blocking player held the block key. The longer the block key is held, the smaller advantage it will give. Therefore a quick tap of the block key would give the biggest advantage, and a long held out defensive manuever, with a succesful block will result in virtually no advantage except the damage saved from blocking.

 

When two lightsabers strike each other in an attack move, but neither player blocks, the two sabers will block each other, but neither player will be penalized.

 

I personally think this kind of compromized system, where the blocking system is still virtually automatic, but where the clear gameplay advantages of the manual blocking system are still in place, will give the most movie like, and strategic saber fighting yet.

 

BTW, I never saw Dooku throw his saber in AotCs... I might have missed it though. I did see him doing a funky spin move where he spun counter clockwise while switching his saber from one hand to the other, and swinging clockwise... It looked vaguely similar to the move in JO where you get the saber to spin around you momentarily.

[Alexandrus]

There should be a server side option to select if blocking is manual or automatic.

Most people preffer automatic blocking, but I say that in order to become a real Jedi(or Sith), you need to be in FULL controll of your saber.

[Prime]

Originally posted by boinga1

By manually blocking, do you mean *hold down a button and block whatever comes your way* or *hit a button to block every individual shot*? And btw I don't think that a system where blocking probability decreases is good because that would make the Imperial Heavy Repeater and E-11 Blaster too powerful. People could just sit there and repeat at you until your blocking chance went down far enough that you could easily be killed. I like blocking the way it is; I say, don't change it.

This was exactly the issue brought up in one of the older threads, and it is a good one. As soon as you make it so that blocking becomes steadily worse over time, opponants are just going to wear you down until you can't defend yourself.

 

Originally posted by Silent_Thunder

People would NOT be holding the block button down the whole time their not attacking. No, the block button (which would surely be the right mouse key), when pressed would bring the saber up in a defensive position, enabiling AUTO blocks to be more succesful. The longer the saber is up in the block position the more force power is used, and the less success you have with deflecting an attack. Therefore, it would be logical to assume that most people would attempt to time thier blocks just right when being shot at, or seeing an obviously-telegraphed saber swing. At other times players would rather hold down the block button, even though it may not be quite as effective as timing it just right -- for example; succesful blocking of repeater fire would defiantly need the Jedi to hold the block key down.

But what about the problem mentioned above from boinga1's post? If me attacking you means I lower your force pool and you become less effective at defending, I am just going to load up on ammo for my blaster rifle and repeater. Then I'm just going to stand there are hold down the trigger. You can't let go of the block button because then your dead. Two things are going to happen next. First, I will keep firing until you have no force left and thus can't defend against my fire. I win as I pump you full of bolts. So Easy. Or I might fire at you and again drain your force pool. Now I decide to bust out my grip and lightning. Since you have no force available for absorb, I just BBQ you and then grip you into a pit. Too easy, as all I had to do what continually shoot at you.

 

Being able to block with the same effectiveness forces me to use another tactic because just alt-firing the blaster gains me nothing. The lightsaber is already limited against guns because of its extremely short range. It's main usefulness in guns FFA is as a defensive tool. Adding a force tax on top of it makes the lighsaber really useless.

[Solo4114]

Against guns, you could have a different calculation come into effect. Whereas your blocking likelihood decreases quickly against a concentrated sabre attack, against a single opponent firing continuously at you, you could have that decrease take MUCH longer. Not so long as to deplete the opponent's ammunition, but long enough that you can close the distance against them.

 

Alternatively, you could have a system where the type of projectile has a different penetration value for purposes of blocking. So while you could shoot a whole mess of repeater primary shots at someone, most of them would not get through because they'd have a weaker penetration value. The E-11 would have a slightly higher value, etc., etc. This could also allow for the incorporation of heavier blaster weapons and move us away from the explosive weapons we saw in JO. The heavier the blaster you use, the more likely you are to penetrate defenses in shorter time.

[Prime]

Originally posted by Solo4114

Against guns, you could have a different calculation come into effect. Whereas your blocking likelihood decreases quickly against a concentrated sabre attack, against a single opponent firing continuously at you, you could have that decrease take MUCH longer. Not so long as to deplete the opponent's ammunition, but long enough that you can close the distance against them.

But if they keep backing up, how will you close the distance Picky, I know, but even with full blocking now, it is not always easy getting to gunners. Good gunners keep well out of range of the sabers. And then your right back to the same problem of running out of Force power and getting toasted.

 

Originally posted by Solo4114

Alternatively, you could have a system where the type of projectile has a different penetration value for purposes of blocking. So while you could shoot a whole mess of repeater primary shots at someone, most of them would not get through because they'd have a weaker penetration value. The E-11 would have a slightly higher value, etc., etc. This could also allow for the incorporation of heavier blaster weapons and move us away from the explosive weapons we saw in JO. The heavier the blaster you use, the more likely you are to penetrate defenses in shorter time.

Not to get into all sorts of technical silliness, but I would think a weapon that fires more shots is more likely to score a hit, simply because you have to deflect more shots. More powerful energy weapons shouldn't be harder, but easier to defend against, because they fire fewer shots. Since they are all energy, the lighsaber can physically deflect them just as easily. But that's not the real issue.

 

The real issue as I see it is that all this doesn't make lightsaber combat better. It just makes it different. Why is manual blocking going to make duels and so on better? It's not like players can't score hits now. Manual blocking seems to just add one more control you have to worry about when fighting. There are already enough of those when you are using force powers.

[Solo4114]

Ok, so if the guns fire pure energy with no concussive effect, why do they so obviously recoil in the movies? And why do they fire in bolts instead of rays???? HMMMMMM??? Don't have an answer for THAT now DO ya, smart guy? (not that it really matters anyway)

 

As for the backing up issue, didn't Raven slow down backup speed relative to the other directions? I thought that was something they did with 1.04 (one of the good things, actually).

 

You'd still need to have some sort of point where the blocking ability is used up, and that's where the different charged projectiles would come in. Less powerful projectiles would use that ability up slower, whereas more powerful projectiles would use it up faster. That said, if you can fire a butt-load of smaller charged projectiles in a short span of time, you'll use up the blocking ability that much faster. I don't, however, think this should be tied to the force. This should be something that goes on behind the scenes (and maybe you get a visual indicator of when you're going to run out of blocking power).

 

As for why manual blocking is better it's precisely because you get more control. It would also require that people LEARN to control that ability rather than just trust the computer. Yes, you can currently score hits on people, but it's fairly random, not tied to aim at all, and you still have no control over it. Regardless, I think the blocking itself could be automatic, but the parrying could be a separate type of attack (IE: a secondary attack) that works only when you're being attacked by someone else and when it's timed correctly. The parry then opens up the enemy's defenses, and from there you have to actuall score regular attack hits. I think this would also help speed up the game.

 

Maybe the current system could be left for duels (in a tweaked form, that is -- less randomness please), but the other systems used for FFA/CTF/etc.

[ILR]

Not sure if this has been said or not.. there is manual blocking in JKII with console commands. All they do is when you press the button you assign to block, you cannot attack and you use the same ol' auto blocking. Its the same as just leaving auto block on and simply not slashing. I think when people say "manual blocking" they mean "effective blocking that can actually stop a slash or two". JKII's auto blocking couldn't block ****. Your best bet was to dodge the slash all together. I think this is what people want changed in the new saber system.

[Doctor Shaft]

Auto blocking all the way.

 

Going along with the comments about internet lag issues, keep in mind that implementing manual blocking adds a complexity to a certain weapon that would surely suffer for it.

 

Take all these auto blocking ideas. Now let's say I give you a lethal lightsaber, and all of these powers, and then I put you in a room full of gunners. For now they won't use explosive cannons, they'll take their repeaters and blasters, and hop around here and there. Now, please tell me where you would find all of this time to concentrate on pressing manual block while dodging rampant fire and people leaping here and there trying to hit you?

 

Manual blocking is too complicated. JKII/JK/JKIII are first person shooters, which means that everything is happening at real time, all attacks happen suddenly. There is no time to react to attacks and constantly press a guard button and aim in certain directions. Promod was the best idea when it came to a blocking function. It got rid of a cumbersome "block" button, and simply relied on how well you aimed. Even then, your blocking was not all powerful, but it was a step in the less random direction. I think that's as far as it can and should go.

 

Basically, manual blocking, if you really think about it, is useless to a FPS game. Why? Well, if you actually bother playing the FULL game (it's amazing how many people insist on playing only a quarter of it, i.e. saberz 0nly, n0 f0rc3 p0w3rz), you'd see that blocking plays an infinitely small role in the game. When I played JK2++, Promod, etc., where my saber was actually a weapon and not a bat, you barely had time to think about who or what you were going to block. Especially in JK2++. If you were a saberist, like me, most of your opponents were gunners, and EVERYONE had force speed 3. Please tell me where that space of time exists where I can sit back and think about pressing the block button, etc? All of my keys are taken up by force powers that I HAVE to use, switch stances at appropriate moments, etc., and and majority of you want to go and complicate things even further. What's worse is that the complication has NO BENEFIT (assuming you actually play the game instead of just half of it).

 

Even more, we already read the comments saying that gameplay would slow down. This is very true. How am I supposed to enjoy a full game (i.e., we play the whole game, not 25% of it) when half the time I'm plagued with messing around with my manual block key (which I will probably hardly use). When someone else pulls out the lightsaber, suddenly we are both stuck thinking about when and where to push the block button. MEANWHILE, the gunners, who are smart and stick to the less complicated stuff, simply click and shoot, click and shoot, click and shoot, wiping us saber n00bies out in style! One of the keys on my keyboard is completely worn out from both the incessant pressing and tapping of it, sometimes in anger as I scream "stupid block key, block that stuff". It's just a bad idea on all sides. Some of us can't even agree how manual blocking should work. In the end, manual blocking in an fps would simply be a "toggle your auto blocking system" button. It's redundant and doesn't really have a logical place in the game.

 

Evasion is best. That's what fps is about. The JKII blocking system was MORE than adequate. If you hated the random saber to saber blocking system, get promod. It wasn't random at all, AND it didn't add any cumbersome blocking system either. It was entirely intuitive. I simply had to stand correctly and watch to block reliably, it all came naturally, without effort. A manual block system is NOT INTUITIVE at all. Just my two cents.

[ILR]

Doctor Shaft, I agreed with you all the way up until the last paragraph. Auto or manual blocking aside.. the potency of blocking is scarcly adequate for this game. In SP, (where blocking is the best), the fact still remains that givin the right situation, your enemy's saber will pass through your own saber. It's also true that you CANNOT stand your ground when facing a dark Jedi... Kyle does not extend his saber outward the least bit to stop attacks. The only way to make your idle saber block a slash is to point Kyle's body in a direction so that his stance model will position the idel saber in just the right spot. And if your opponent uses red stance (Desann, for example) his saber will pass through yours no matter what.

 

The best way to have any kind of defense in JKII is to dodge everything, like you've said in your post. People with guns dodge.. people with force drivin deflection techniques don't dodge. A classic line comes to me about the force.. (ben and luke talking about the force)

 

"You mean in controls my actions?"

"Partially.. it also obey's your commands."

 

I understand the value in autoblocking, but my prefered style gets shafted because I simply cannot effectively block a simple incoming slash. There are many things you can do to counter an oncoming slash.. but in JKII.. blocking it isn't one of them.

[Prime]

Originally posted by Solo4114

Ok, so if the guns fire pure energy with no concussive effect, why do they so obviously recoil in the movies? And why do they fire in bolts instead of rays???? HMMMMMM??? Don't have an answer for THAT now DO ya, smart guy? (not that it really matters anyway)

It's obvious! Star Wars physics It's the same reason why there is sound in space...

 

Originally posted by Solo4114

As for the backing up issue, didn't Raven slow down backup speed relative to the other directions? I thought that was something they did with 1.04 (one of the good things, actually).

You know what, you might be right about that. That does ring a bell. I looked in the readmes for the patches and didn't see it though...

 

Originally posted by Solo4114

As for why manual blocking is better it's precisely because you get more control. It would also require that people LEARN to control that ability rather than just trust the computer. Yes, you can currently score hits on people, but it's fairly random, not tied to aim at all, and you still have no control over it.

See, I don't find it completely random. Maybe this is what causes our views (and both camps views) to differ. I find that hits aren't random, at least a server with a low ping. I find that when I attack an opening, I feel I do connect when I should connect. I also feel that with just a mouse and direction keys, I have exceptional control over my lightsaber. I can control what direction I swing, diagionally down or up, straight up or down, spins, special moves. I feel that I can move the saber the way I want it to move. I guess that's also why I don't see the need for manual blocking. I already have lots of control, and adding that would almost be too much to control.

 

I'm not trying to dump on your ideas, man. On the contrary, you have some interesting and well thought out ideas, even if I don't agree with them all. But at least it makes me think about why I don't want manual blocking

 

Originally posted by ILR

The best way to have any kind of defense in JKII is to dodge everything, like you've said in your post. People with guns dodge.. people with force drivin deflection techniques don't dodge...

 

I understand the value in autoblocking, but my prefered style gets shafted because I simply cannot effectively block a simple incoming slash. There are many things you can do to counter an oncoming slash.. but in JKII.. blocking it isn't one of them.

Man, I don't find this at all, especially in SP. As long as I'm not swing like a fool, I find I can block most swings coming my way. Remember, this has a great reliance on the ping, so if you have a high ping, it won't matter at all. It also depends what stance you are in. You can certainly block many swings that would otherwise mean death

[Deadeye]

I agree mostly with you ILR.

 

I personally like the manual blocking mostly for use in saber duels. As far as saber vs gun combat, I would like to see an autoblocking system that deflects blaster bolts, but if you hit the block button at the moment of impact, you can definitely aim back at your opponent, like Jedi Power Battles. I do agree that the trouble with manual blocking is where to bind it. The keys that surround WADS are bound to force powerson my keyboard too, but I have a MS explorer with two extra buttons. I also bind push and pull to wheel up and wheel down, respectively. I would bind the block button probably to the the mouse wheel press, and still have room for the other powers.

 

My biggest draw to this game is the saber duels. My favorite thing to do with JO these days is to play that ladder level that sends Reborn after you. I like the idea of manual blocking b/c it adds a little bit of twitch skill that you have to time right with saber impacts. I think it would give the duels a little more life, and make them feel more like sword fights. This would also make you feel more Jedi-like when delfecting laser bolts. Instead of just standing there, you can actually take action and block those bolts back at the enemy with your twitch skills. Its like you're actually doing the saber manuvers.

 

Boy this is a heated discussion. It started out with most votes to the manual blocking. Now auto is catching up! In the end I would bet that Raven left the saber combat alone, and only added to the two stances for the light staff, and the dual sabers.

[HertogJan]

Laser bolts etc. should be blocked automaticly. Blocking sabers would look a lot like in JK2, but in addition to that, you can press a defensive block button, which will block the red stance swings too... But it should be made so that you can't just block forever, that would encourage laming...