Zoom Rabbit Posted May 20, 2003 Author Share Posted May 20, 2003 Cracken: Come now, Commander. Isn't it true that your digital camera was just the subject of a worldwide alert by Interpol, being found by a hazmat team in the steaming ruins of a public entertainment establishment in Tijuana--a dirty little tavern that shows donkeys and...well, we won't go there--with a video card full of sordid, blurry photos featuring Martha Stewart, Pete Townshend, yourself and Saddam Hussein in a series of *compromising* vignettes? That's hardly the kind of 'sword play' we'll be seeing on this forum, I trust... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wacky_Baccy Posted May 20, 2003 Share Posted May 20, 2003 Right, because I only read page 1, I have no idea if this is even remotely serious any more or not... So, can we still be taught general things about swordlyness (), or has the topic already died a death? ...I wanna be a samurai But I also want to achieve total control of my mind and body, too, which sounds sorta zenly-ish to me.... ^_^ Posted by ZBomber One time I rode a dog... *harvests snippet from Zed for his quotesig thingy* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoom Rabbit Posted May 20, 2003 Author Share Posted May 20, 2003 Waccy: No, the topic hasn't died. Actually, we're just getting started. The pace of lessons has slowed down a bit, though, because we recognize that not everyone has an hour a day to spend keeping up with it all... Yes indeed we will be going into zen. There is a zen riddle partway up this page for contemplation, and my sig is a kind of one (if you add the question 'Who is the rider?' at the end of it,) but my actual lesson plans won't be going into the meat of the subject for a while yet. Zen, of course, comes with time. *(Abruptly looks at ZBomber.)* Hey! Get off my dog--! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kylilin Posted May 21, 2003 Share Posted May 21, 2003 A short sword called The Gladius was the main weapon of the Roman Military. When people used the name: Gladius Hispaniensis or "Spanish Sword" it is thought that this weapon was based on swords Celtic warriors were using against the Romans in Spain. The Legions patterened their short swords after those of the Spanish Celts. The historian, Polybius, says they were introduced into the army during the second Punic War. The Gladius of Caesar's time untill Tiberius had a slight curve in the edge of the blade. The Fulham type and the Pompeii type had edges which were completely parallel. This sword was intended as a thrusting weapon. This was the best way to use a sword in tight formation. Using the sword in a slashing motion would cause the soldier to open his side to attack. The Pompeii sword was in good use by the 1st century AD and continued well into the 2nd century. The weapon has straight parallel edges and a short stabbing point. Blade widths average between 42 to 55mm with the length of the sword being 420 to 500mm. The Pompeii sword is equally suited for stabbing at close range. here is a picture of the average gladius: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoom Rabbit Posted May 21, 2003 Author Share Posted May 21, 2003 Kylilin: Oooooh, I love a good gladius. Perfect weapon for freaking out in a crowd. Purchasing and caring for a samurai sword (part two: crap) $300--$1000 Within this medium price range, one is looking for a practical, modern machine-made sword that is built to take the punishment of use. Not a wall sword by any means, these weapons are usually made of high-carbon steel, with a full tang that goes all the way down the handle. Remember those words. High carbon steel. Full tang. In addition to traditional Japanese handles, one often finds these weapons constructed with a grip-tongue handle. A grip-tongue is a western design where the tang (the metal bit of the blade that continues down into the handle) is the shape of the handle, which is usually two pieces of wood riveted to either side of the tang to fill it out. I actually endorse the grip-tongue handle as the best design for taking punishment. Throughout history, this kind of handle has proven to be the most rugged we can come up with...and if you want to buy a samurai sword with a grip-tongue handle, I for one won't *tsk* you for defying Japanese tradition. High carbon steel is tough, flexible and forgiving of abuse (though not indestructible)...but it does have a weakness: rust. It will perform well for you for years, but in return you must mollycoddle the steel itself with frequent oilings. Every few months (if you live in a moderately wet climate, or less frequently the more arid your environment) you should take the sword out of its scabbard and wipe it down with either household three-in-one oil or CLP gun oil, then put it back in the scabbard for storage. Keep your sword somewhere horizontal; leaving it tip down will allow the oil to run off the tip and collect in the bottom of the scabbard, while keeping it flat will maintain an even coat of oil over the entire blade. Traditional Japanese sword stands will store them properly--provided you stay away from the single-sword floor stands. *Under $300: You're an idiot. Buy a cheap stainless steel dragon sword--or better yet, a three-piece matched set of them--and either stick it on the wall or take chances with your own safety by using it for yard work. Stainless steel is just fine in a knife, which is short and doesn't flex a great deal, but it is too brittle to perform in a sword blade. It will snap, break, maybe lacerating your head as the broken blade flys past you. Sticking with 440 stainless steel in the belief that it is somehow better is self delusion...440 is denser, and even more prone to cracking under stress. So, for under $300 you can probably get a wall sword. Play with it, look at it, even do tai chi with it if you must...but do not hit anything with it, because it might injure you. Your sword will probably have a wobbly plastic handle with a dragon's head on the butt end of it...yay. Now you're 'Highlander.' Actually, for the under $300 range you might be better off getting a wooden bokken. At ten bucks, it's a steal...and you'll be more satisfied with how it performs. *One can find high-carbon full tang swords for less than $300, but one gets what one pays for. It isn't until there are three Franklins on the table that a sword one can depend upon becomes buyable. Caveat emptor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wacky_Baccy Posted May 21, 2003 Share Posted May 21, 2003 Posted by Zoom Rabbit Waccy: No, the topic hasn't died. Actually, we're just getting started. The pace of lessons has slowed down a bit, though, because we recognize that not everyone has an hour a day to spend keeping up with it all... Ah, okay then - good Yes indeed we will be going into zen. There is a zen riddle partway up this page for contemplation, and my sig is a kind of one (if you add the question 'Who is the rider?' at the end of it,) but my actual lesson plans won't be going into the meat of the subject for a while yet. Zen, of course, comes with time. *tries to work out who the 'rider' is* ...I think I broke my brain X.X Purchasing and caring for a samurai sword (part two: crap) $300--$1000 Within this medium price range, one is looking for a practical, modern machine-made sword that is built to take the punishment of use. Not a wall sword by any means, these weapons are usually made of high-carbon steel, with a full tang that goes all the way down the handle. ...I need to get a job, don't I? Remember those words. High carbon steel. Full tang. *knows this from when he was researching knives * But screw knives now, I want a sword, dammit In addition to traditional Japanese handles, one often finds these weapons constructed with a grip-tongue handle. A grip-tongue is a western design where the tang (the metal bit of the blade that continues down into the handle) is the shape of the handle, which is usually two pieces of wood riveted to either side of the tang to fill it out.Ahhhh, so that's what tehy're called... Kewl ^__^ I actually endorse the grip-tongue handle as the best design for taking punishment. Throughout history, this kind of handle has proven to be the most rugged we can come up with...and if you want to buy a samurai sword with a grip-tongue handle, I for one won't *tsk* you for defying Japanese tradition. And here was little me thinking you'd be more of a 'purist' than that - glad you're not, cos purists get up my nose XD High carbon steel is tough, flexible and forgiving of abuse (though not indestructible)I want an adamantium sword *cry* Actually, for the under $300 range you might be better off getting a wooden bokken. At ten bucks, it's a steal...and you'll be more satisfied with how it performs.*goes off in search of somewhere selling bokkens... and some space to play with it in* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoom Rabbit Posted May 21, 2003 Author Share Posted May 21, 2003 Waccy: Glad to see you're enjoying the thread...and welcome aboard. Sorry about the broken brain. The idea behind a zen riddle is to 'tie up' the reader's mind for a moment--in that instant is a (small) chance that one might realize the futility of the thought process and discard the notion of ideas. That 'emptying of the cup' can allow one to realize once and for all that he is the rider, the horse, even the path and the warm barn full of hay at the journey's end... Didn't work? Oh, well. The title confuzzlements are different, though. There usually is a point, joke or side comment involved that the reader can work out for themselves (although frequently they are meaningless, just to keep things surreal.) For example, 'The rooster came first' is the punchline to my favorite joke: 'Which came first--the chicken or the egg?' Yes, purists suck. I appreciate tradition, and I especially appreciate safety...but I come for the 'do-it-yourself' back yard school of swordsmanship. There's the right way, the wrong way, and another way that works just as well... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Odin Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 Good Evening class. Tonight we will learn about buying a proper sword. We will also talk about wall hangers. An historical sword, will cost you thousands upon thousands of dollars. I doubt that any of you have this money to spare. Also to even think of using a piece of history in pratice is foolish. So with that not really being a viable option. You are now looking at spending around 200+ on a sword. Definetly cheaper then a samurai sword (but not by much). The usual range is 200-350. In this price range you can buy a decent battle ready sword. What is Battle ready? I use this term meaning you could take the sword into a medieval battle and not have it break on you in ten minutes. Now what to look for? This depends upon what you want. If you want a true sword (one you can use) there are something you want to look for. 1. What is the blade made out of. You want High Carbon steel. Now some say but it rust and since stainless steel doesn't it then stainless steel is better. Wrong wrong wrong. See Zoomie post. Stainless steel is great for a wall hanger. Terrible for a sword. 2. The tang. You want a full tang, this really holds true for any type of sword, also knives. The better knifes have full tangs. All though it is not as critical in knives. A sword with out a full tang will make for a nice wall hanger. 3. Tempering. The sword must be properly tempered. If it isn't don't even bother buying it. A easy way to test this is to bend the blade a little (use gloved hands). The blade should return to it's original shape. 4. Flexibility: A sword needs to be flexible to a degree. A flimsy sword is useless as it won't do a thing. Too rigid sword will break on you. It needs some flexiblity but and some rigidity to it. 5. Weight: Sword are not the heavy clumsy things you see in movies. Look at my list of sword types, it gives the weight for the different classes of swords. If you find a very heave sword it a wall hanger. Wall Hangers Many swords made today fall into this category. Unfortunatly most sword manufactures want to make pretty looking swords and fall into many modern fallacies about swords, caused by movies. One thing a wall hanger is often very heavy. Far more then a true sword should be. Remember men would be using them all day. They would avoid heavy weapons which would tire them easily. The reason many swords are so heavy is because of movies. Often they show combatants widly swinging swords and acting like they way a ton. Unfortunatly many have taken this as fact. When in reality it is far from the truth. Wall hangers are also stainless steel swords. Companies make them like this for the simple reason the require less care and look shiny. Yet are brittle and easily broken. I won't beat this to death. In general wall hangers are pieces of metal shaped to look like a sword. They usually do not have a full tang, made of stainless steel, weigh to much. In the end they look good on the wall but other then that are not of much use. Now to the final part of this lesson. When buying a sword to pratice medieval and renaissance swordsmanship buy a historically accurate replica. Why replica because as I said before I doubt many could afford an original sword. Nor if you could would you use it in pratice. When using a sword long enough it will eventually break even if you take the best care of it. This is just a simple fact to keep in mind. You may have noticed that many of the things you look for in a Samuria sword hold true for a European sword.... Unless there are any question Class is dismissed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoom Rabbit Posted May 22, 2003 Author Share Posted May 22, 2003 Admiral: What is your opinion of tangs that are secured to the handle by being threaded and screwed onto the pommel? I've always found them problematic, but I've also read that it's the *best* way (for whippy rapiers, smallswords, etc.) I have a wonderful true story to share with my fellow sword nuts. It is bragging, so feel free to skip it. A day in the life of a blade collector (little guy wins, part two) A part of my routine is to check the local pawnshops every couple of months or so. On the prowl for antiques, especially Japanese nihonto (the holy grail of blade collectors,) I stopped into one that I don't check very often. They don't know much about antique knives there, and usually don't buy them from people who want to sell...they do have a knife case, but it's full of junk and a few decent hunting knives. Not today. Right on top of the pile was a plain looking knife with a curved blade, ten inches long, and a simple wooden handle--no scabbard. $29.95. My conversation with the lady behind the counter went something like this: 'I want to see that knife on top. The plain one.' 'Okay. Wow--it's heavy.' *(Watches me peer intensely at the steel. for a good two minutes)* 'Is it old?' 'I'll tell you that after I pay for it.' *(Wallet jumps out of my pocket on its own, money flying out.)* 'Oh, just give me twenty.' I looked at her incredulously. 'For ten bucks I'll teach you a thing about Japanese knives.' I then told her that what I'd just bought was a handmade folded steel Japanese knife, mounted in shira-saya (scabbard missing,) and showed her how to tell in the future if a blade of this type comes across her counter. Shira-saya is very plain, even cheap looking...but most of the truly old Japanese weapons that came to the US after WW2 did so in shira-saya furniture. Since it lacked a habaki (bolster, collar if you will) I determined that it was actually the broken end of an old sword that had been cut down to dagger size and given a second life. This was the common fate of a broken sword in old times, as forged and tempered steel was too precious to waste; sadly, the signature on the tang is almost always lost when this is done (if the smith was noteworthy, the signature might be chiseled out and welded into the new tang) so I may never know how old this knife is. When she asked me how valuable it was, I said 'The most pessimistic value one might assign to this blade is a hundred bucks, but once repolished and re-mounted...this would be worth about six hundred dollars.' $Cha-CHING$ wins this round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Odin Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 Zoom: It entirly depends upon what you are doing with the sword. For the most part having the tang screwed into the pommel won't cause you many problems. Swords that you use with only one hand, or ones that both hands can fit should be fine. Problems arise with the hand and a half sword. With these if you use a second hand you must in part grip the pommel. For this type it is best for the tang to be securly welded to the pommel. ----------------------------------- Personally I do not go to pawn shops. I have one place that I shop for my blades. They sell good swords at the right weight and are replicas. Not that fantasy art crap that seems to be everywhere. Currently my collection: 1 Rapier 1 Claymore 1 Hand and half 2 Katanas 1 Norman sword 3 Medieval swords 1 Short Sword 1 War Hammer 1 War Axe 1 Spear 1 Mace 1 Dagger 1 Spiked Flail 1 Round Shield 1 War Club 1 pair of leather gauntlets (I highly recommend people get these before praticing, besides giving some protection they also prevent the sword from slipping from a hand wet with sweat) With in the next couple of days to a week I probably will add 1-2 rapiers to my collection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoom Rabbit Posted May 23, 2003 Author Share Posted May 23, 2003 Aaaah. Your collection is filling out impressively. Is the sword you fixed up after it had been sealed in the wall the short sword you mention? Have you ever had that one appraised? Fraternal swords are being collected more aggressively these days, and I've seen mine go up in value... Norman sword? Do you mean a viking sword? *(Runs away before Admiral can punish him for scholarly misnomenclature.)* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Odin Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 Yes my short sword is the one I've fixed up. And I never had it appraised. Since I don't plan on selling it I don't see a reason to. ALso Check my list of sword classes a Norman sword is the same class as a Viking sword. The names are interchangeable. Why you ask? The Normans where also called Norsemen. Norsemen are vikings. History wise the Normans settled in Normandy and adopted the culture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kjølen Posted May 24, 2003 Share Posted May 24, 2003 Ah but Youkai Sword Arts are not evil, it is up to the human or youkai that uses it. I greatly am in the good side Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Odin Posted May 24, 2003 Share Posted May 24, 2003 I also have pics of the sword to. It is a very beautiful piece. I have them somewhere on my computer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoom Rabbit Posted May 24, 2003 Author Share Posted May 24, 2003 I believe you. Please feel free to post any lessons you wish, Kjolen-sama. You are the master if your school, after all, and we the students... Admiral: I like viking swords, yes. But I suspect a *real* one would be much too heavy for scrawny little 5'5", 145 lb. me to use effectively. Hey, did you groan in misery when Antonio Banderas ground that sword down to a scimitar in 13th Warrior like I did? Viking swords of that period were iron, with steel edges pattern-welded in--he would have ground the steel edge right off! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Odin Posted May 24, 2003 Share Posted May 24, 2003 Zoom: That is a movie fallacy. A viking sword is not heavy, European swords are not heavy. Remember they are caring a shield that is heavy they would not also carry a heavy sword. My viking sword is a replica of an original. It is light and fast. It is also very pretty. I named it Odin. I love 13th Warrior. I laughed when he grinded the sword. To think that would improve the blade is really funny. Then to think a viking black smith would allow that is really funny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoom Rabbit Posted May 24, 2003 Author Share Posted May 24, 2003 Viking smith: What the--why you scrawny little desert rodent! *WHANG!* Sorry. Uhm...twelve! Twelve warriors. (That light? I must get one now...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Odin Posted May 25, 2003 Share Posted May 25, 2003 Good morning Class. Today we will be covering sword Etiquette and chivalry. The sword Blade Now as mentioned before do not touch the blade of a sword with your bare hands. This causes can cause the balde to rust. Furthermore it is very disrepectful to the weapon. When handling a blade where gloves. This shows respect and care for the condition of the sword. Why respect a sword? Well the sword is a deadly weapon you should respect that. The sword is also a symbol for honor and valor. Those values should definetly be respected. Wearing a Sword In movies you constantly see a sword across the back of a person. This is wrong and impratical. A sword was always carried at the waste. Why do you ask? Well it is far easier to draw a sword from the side then it is from the back. Try this and you will see. The only swords traditionally worn across the back were the Scottish Claymores or other very large swords. And then when people would draw them it would be across teh shoulder and not over it. Finally Swords are worn on the left side, dagger on teh right. This is due to the fact when escorting a lady she is traditionally on your righ side. If you also had your sword on the rightside it could easily get entangled. It is also for easy of drawing. It is time for a little break. The lesson will finish when I wake up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwing Posted May 25, 2003 Share Posted May 25, 2003 Now that I took the time (hour ) to read this, it's actually very interesting. I do have a question, though: Originally posted by Admiral In movies you constantly see a sword across the back of a person. This is wrong and impratical. A sword was always carried at the waste. Why do you ask? Well it is far easier to draw a sword from the side then it is from the back. Try this and you will see. The only swords traditionally worn across the back were the Scottish Claymores or other very large swords. And then when people would draw them it would be across teh shoulder and not over it. Across not over? Wouldn't that be the same thing? (Or am I just too tired...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogue15 Posted May 25, 2003 Share Posted May 25, 2003 what sword can slice 3 people in half at once. (could possibly need one to use on my managers at work ;] ) I'd like to have that sword of shadows....saw it at the renaissance faire, my friend told me he knows someone who can get it to me for less than $100. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kylilin Posted May 25, 2003 Share Posted May 25, 2003 The other day I was checking out some sword selling sites and one site was actually selling a replica of Cloud Strife's Buster Sword, I am very tempted to buy it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Odin Posted May 26, 2003 Share Posted May 26, 2003 Oh god no the horror of modern fantasy blades. Red: Across being sideways over being vertical. When a large sword is carried on your back you cannot unsheath it by bring it Over your shoulder/head. To unsheath it you have to move it horizontally across your sholders. This is if your in a jam. Otherwise before battle you would remove the entire baldric (carries the sword) then take the sword. ----------------------------------------- Continued: Banging a sword Do not randomly hit a sword against metal just to hear the ringing clang it makes. This can and eventually will damage the sword. If you want to hear the sound just use a metal pole instead of a sword. Chivalry We have all heard about this I hope? IF you haven't Chivalry is a code amoung European Knights. It is an outline for behavior. However what many do not realize is that chivalry only applied to the upper classes. The lower classes of fuedal society were ignored by the code. Here is a site that list the basics of the code. I would type it out but this saves space and time. Took me a while to find a good site that listed the code: http://members.aol.com/Lomane/Chivalry.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoom Rabbit Posted May 26, 2003 Author Share Posted May 26, 2003 I wish to second Professor Admiral's sense of horror at the mention of modern fantasy swords. I have a fantasy dagger on a wall plaque in my collection, but that's only because someone gave it to me as a Christmas present... Rogue 13, a sword that can cut three people would be in the $1000 plus (emphasis on plus) range. Very old samurai swords were tested before being sold, sometimes on corpses and sometimes on (briefly) living people, with the results inscribed on the blade's tang. Some swords are attested to have cut through as many as three people. A sword that costs less than $100 *might* cut through a 1/4 inch tree branch, and probably break when it does so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwing Posted May 26, 2003 Share Posted May 26, 2003 Ah. Tell me if this is getting too off-topic but, since you mentioned modern fantasy blades, what is the accuracy of the weapons depicted in Morrowind? (to everyone: Morrowind = a really shibby fantasy RPG ^_^) Reading this topic has made me very curious... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Odin Posted May 26, 2003 Share Posted May 26, 2003 Accurate in what way? How they look? Then yes many (not all) of the weapons in Morrowind have a pretty accurate look. Other then that it is hard to say since it is a virtual world.... And Since you brought up morrowind, I may as well share my mod that I'm working on. http://admiralodin.20megsfree.com/index.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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