The trailer has confirmed my fears

[shock ~ unnamed]

Another thing you people need to understand is Raven does not have total freedom with this game, it is a licensed property.

 

 

Raven may have a million ideas to make saber combat flawless but if LEC says no then it won't happen.

 

Kind of like the patches, everyone blames Raven but in reality they were forced to butcher their own work by LEC.

 

90 million frustrated noobs bitched and moaned, LEC said "Oh **** we better fix X because all these people are complaining about it and sales will drop."

 

They told Raven, "Fix X and nothing more" and hence it screwed up game play because LEC had *nothing to do with the game development and had no idea what would effect it good or bad. It was just a knee jerk reaction to complaints.

 

Imagine how Raven enjoyed working as long as they did on JK2 and then being forced to butcher their own game by LEC and then be flamed by the JK2 players for something they were made to do.

[Atsuri]

Thank you MuRaSaMuNe now i can see what everyone is arguing about... OMG that looked sweet. WHAT ARE YOU COMPLAINING ABOUT! I saw TONS of new moves and im pretty sure a few of them were much classier and prettier than some of the ones in JO. From the looks of it there even looks like there is a range of special moves that can be pulled off.

[Break_dF]

Smood... just stop posting man. It's impossible to judge game-play from a trailer. Impossible. Again.. impossible. Do you understand now? Good. Impossible.

[Guest Jolts]

I think what smood means by better control of saber is something is like being able to strafe left and swing left to right, and then right to left while still strafing left? vs having to switch movement direction in order to swing the other way. I only used the saber in sp, can't remember if mp had some of the automatic control that sp did over getting close to an enemy and think you were going to pull a left to right swing but instead getting a top left to bottom right swing?

 

When people talk about making the saber more moview like I'm guessing they are thinking more in terms of the actual animation poses and things like that.

[Spider AL]

Groovy_ Post edited due to excessive flaming. Be forwarned, that "constructive critism is welcome", but destructive critism, which constitutes as flaming, will earn you a ban. You have been warned...

 

 

_Darth Groovy

[Prime]

Originally posted by TheBlueFlamingo [/b]I hope they change it up a little instead of just improve what they've had...[/b]

Why throw the baby out with the bath water? There are a lot of things that are great about JO lightsaber combat. There was an exceptional amount of control for the saber using only a mouse and keyboard. Why would you want to completely scrap what people have learned and enjoyed and come up with something completely different? It's better to keep the good things and improve it from there. I can't imagine drastic changes leading to a much better form of lightsaber combat.

 

Originally posted by Razorace

I'll bring up the point that LEC expects us to play $50+ for JKA. IE new whole game price.

But it is a full new standalone game. I can see that for an expansion pack, but JA will be new game in and of itself. I don't see why it has to be totally different to be considered a new game. Games like X-Wing Alliance had a lot of similarities with the earlier titles in that series. But was it not worth the full price? Hell, you could say the majority of FPS are copies of each other.

[toms]

What does this mean? It means saber combat where I KNOW WHATS HAPPENING, I'am in charge of every swing movement and reflex, skillful fighting. Retain your weapons and your fast movement, but consider that.

 

don't worry smood... at least i know what you mean.

 

i wouldn't count on them fixing the combat though, just aint gonna happen... but i think a few of the mods out there make it at least more predictable/consistent.

 

i'll be happy if they just fix the saber locks... save my mouse...

[Solbe M'ko]

I think we all have to realize that Jedi Academy is just an expansion pack. It isn't a whole new game built from the ground up, it's just a map pack and a few more models, plus a patch.

 

Now don't get me wrong, the game looked okay, but really, it isn't a new game. Remember Mechwarrior 4? It had several stand alone expansions, they were not new games, though they were marketed as such.

 

Anyway, back to the sabers, the spaminess is a real problem. Making a game-like game is one thing, but making an experience on a screen is something else. If you want to play a game with sabers you should have the option, if you want to play a movie, you should have the option. Lucasarts could whip up 2 new games anytime it wants.

 

This trailer reminded me of Elite Force. Raven made that one, too, remember. EF was quake 3 all over again, but set in the ST universe. It came out feeling empty. It was too much game, not enough storytelling. Computer games will remain invalid in the minds of consumers as a source of real creativity until we start to use them to tell stories instead of just blow things up. I havn't seen a (good) movie in the last ten years that was all action, no reason. I have never read a book like that, either.

[razorace]

Originally posted by Prime

But it is a full new standalone game. I can see that for an expansion pack, but JA will be new game in and of itself. I don't see why it has to be totally different to be considered a new game. Games like X-Wing Alliance had a lot of similarities with the earlier titles in that series. But was it not worth the full price? Hell, you could say the majority of FPS are copies of each other.

 

X-Wing Alliance had a totally different engine. you could TELL the difference from the screenshots. With JKA, you can't other than the fact they are new models, doing new animations, on new maps.

[BloodRiot]

From what i saw the game doesnt look at all bad. The only 2 things i didnt like was that it was still lightning fast(i'd tweak down speed just a tad) and I think the double saber doesnt seem to have decent animations yet...weird cuz i was happy with double sabers. But i'm gonna still wait for gameplay experience before i pass any final judgements on the game.

 

EDIT:

------

I take some remarks half-back...

I saw some nice overhead spinning action against the weequay with the double bladed saber...try seeing it frame by frame... other than a faulty head animation(the guy spins around but the head faces the enemy at least during the end of the spin...he looked like he broke his neck), it looked interesting...it was a bit fast that's why i didnt notice it the first time... so i'll just stick with my other remark...it bloody fast

------

 

The tauntaun riding seemed pretty fun and at last they got rid of the briar...pretty ugly weapon. Oh... even tho i didnt like the force push glow, im not worried about it. One of the things im mostly curious about is the character clustomization. I'd liek to the options, didnt look half bad from the screenshots and trailer tho.

 

Well, if they dont fix up some decent 2 handed animations for the double bladed saber, I'll just stick to single bladed saber saber.

 

About gameplay... I'll be happy if defense is not uber like shoot-and-saber-me-from-all-sides-a-million-times-and-i'll-still-be-alive-and-kicking and offense is effective enough to make the saber usefull as a weapon and not a shield.

 

Cheers.

[StormHammer]

You know, I have to feel sorry for the Raven devs. They're damned if they do...and damned if they don't. They gave us a pretty linear game in JO...which was based around a carefully created story. Regardless of whether you liked it or not...it did have a story.

 

Now with JA...they're telling us it's more open...we have more choices...and all of a sudden they're being criticised for not giving us a story - regardless of the fact none of us have any idea what the story is going to be in the game.

 

You can't have it both ways, people. Involving stories are by their very nature...linear. Yes, you can argue about the Deus Ex's of the gaming world, which did a very good job of making it feel less linear...although the story was mostly linear, to an extent, apart from where it branched based on your decisions.

 

Now we all know that JA will have a Light Side and Dark Side ending...so it has to branch somewhere. Let's wait and see what the story is about before criticising the game for having no story at all.

 

As for JA being an expansion pack...what a silly notion. They're giving us a game with new parameters, new models, new animations, new levels, new choices, character customisation, new MP modes, and who-knows-what-else...but because it's based on the same engine, it gets tagged with 'Expansion Pack' status.

 

So RTCW, EF, JO, and all the rest are just expansions of Q3? Are they? Forgive me while I ignore such a notion.

 

From what I've seen so far, JA simply feels like a natural progression in this series of games. Some of you might like to compare it to MotS, which was classed as an Expansion Pack - but to be quite frank...I haven't seen very many games with expansion packs of that size and quality. With a little more work, MotS could easily have become a standalone title and a natural sequel to JK, IMHO. Compared to other game 'expansions' at the time, I was frankly pleasantly surprised by the scale and scope of MotS.

 

In my view, JA is a great deal more to JO, than MotS ever was to JK. But of course, that's just my opinion, so feel free to disagree with it.

[txa1265]

Originally posted by StormHammer

You know, I have to feel sorry for the Raven devs. <snip>

 

Thanks for cranking on the whiners! I completely agree with you. People have been picking JKII apart more and more in the last several months. It was a very good game, one of last years best few, with a good but flawed story, nice if somewhat linear levels, and some very good gameplay through the innovative saber combat and force powers.

 

Now we have JA coming out. Builds upon the JKII engine like EFII builds from EF - is EFII just an expansion pack? NO!!! Neither is JA. I've used the MotS comparison in a positive way - MotS is longer than many noted games - MoHAA comes to mind. JKII was a long game - average ~24 hours, compared to most current FPS being 10 - 15 hrs. JA is supposed to be longer! With a truly branching story (sorry if I found Deus Ex's endings not so satisfying, you get all of that confusion right in the last mission), non-linear mission choices, more open levels, and so on.

 

Mike

[Kurgan]

As many of us predicted right from the get go, this has more the feel of an "Expansion" (on the level of Mysteries of the Sith) than a true sequel.

 

I didn't expect the gameplay to go through any revolutionary changes. It sounds like we're in for more of the same, with some more tweaks (think of the new sabers as new stance options... the Taun Taun like another vehicle along the lines of the AT-ST).

 

Still, the Objective Based multiplayer is something that I'm really looking forward to. It's nothing new in game terms, but definately something the Star Wars JK universe has been lacking...

 

 

As far as the animations go, I wouldn't worry so much about those. The differences in framerate between the actual game on various hardware and the conditions under which it was recorded, etc affect how that looks, plus the game still has some time left before release...

 

As to the force "effects" you realize that in JK2 they are far more pronounced in Single Player, and for the primary reasons that lag isn't a factor and the player needs some more "feedback" for interacting with the environment. It's also a good teaching tool for n00bs. ; ) I would expect them to be toned down for actual multiplayer.

 

Notice how the HUDs looked incomplete... there is still work to be done before the game is finished, so I wouldn't expect it to be identical as what we saw (but not a revolution over it either).

[Prime]

Originally posted by razorace

X-Wing Alliance had a totally different engine. you could TELL the difference from the screenshots. With JKA, you can't other than the fact they are new models, doing new animations, on new maps.

And the maps and models are better than JO. Perhaps you have seen the model comparison screenshots between JA and JO. Sorry, I couldn't find a link.

 

Just because it uses a similar engine doesn't mean it will look exactly the same. But apart from graphics, we get more than just "new models, doing new animations, on new maps." You get:

 

Lightsaber - The player will start with a lightsaber he creates choosing from different

hilts and blade colors. The player will be able to use the lightsaber for the entire game, eventually earning the right to wield a saber staff, or one lightsaber in each hand.

 

Player Character - As the player, you get to create a custom Jedi character to play through the game with, choosing from hundreds of potential combinations.

 

Game Engine - Jedi Academy uses a heavily modified version of id Software?s Quake III: Team Arena engine. New features added since Jedi Outcast are:

 

Character customization system - allows players to create their own Jedi in both SP and MP (estimating 2160 combinations currently)

·

Ghoul II enhancements including the Ghoul infinite Model modification system - Allows for modular model enhancements, custom colorization, and expanded animation support

·

New ICARUS II scripting system for Single player and Multiplayer. Now allows for scripted events in multiplayer matches.

 

New map creation tools allowing for models to be used as in world objects instead of just textures. Creates richer 3-D environments.

·

New non-linear mission progression system.

·

Raven's ARIOCHE terrain system.

 

Portal skies

 

Rag doll skeletal system

 

Enhanced vehicle system. Allows for new ride-able vehicles in addition to previous drive-able ones

·

Character and vehicle enhancements designed to enable expanded mod support.

 

Modders will be able to design their own Jedi, character outfits, sabers, etc.

 

Come on. Doesn't that sounds like a little bit more than just an expansion pack?

[ryudom]

i dunno, it doesn't look amazingly differant then JO... it looks kinda sloppy to me, just like single player for JO was sloppy. i hated that. but its just a trailer so who knows. if they mad singleplayer have better control, like multiplayer, i'd be happy. the guns in single player really really sucked. and the saber too, but not as much. imo of course.

[Prime]

Originally posted by ryudom

i dunno, it doesn't look amazingly differant then JO... it looks kinda sloppy to me, just like single player for JO was sloppy. i hated that. but its just a trailer so who knows. if they mad singleplayer have better control, like multiplayer, i'd be happy. the guns in single player really really sucked. and the saber too, but not as much. imo of course.

I think we are expecting different things. Nothing wrong with that, of course But I loved JO singleplayer (although I didn't use the guns a lot). I found the control of the saber better in SP than MP. I wasn't disappointed at all with the game. Maybe that's why I don't feel disappointed from what I've seen of JA, were as others might.

[Smood]

Originally posted by Spider AL

Really. I for one hope I never meet any fanboys in person, sentencing is much too tough these days...

 

Calling me a fanboy over and over constantly reminds me you don't TRULY understand my vision, or me as a player. If you are disgusted with my comments with your 'ugh' comment, please do not reply.

[Kurgan]

There's no reason to flame each other over opinions on a game that isn't out yet. Remember that. We can have a civilized discussion and disagree without being jerks!

 

Anyway...

 

The only element that appeared to "fail" and that was an attempt to be "more like the movies" I felt, was the situation with lightsabers "fizzling out" in water.

 

In the Single Player game of JK2 (unlike MotS and JK1) the water was not really "swimmable." You either waded through it, or you "floated" through it with a treading water animation, almost like you were in the vacuum of space, rather than a lake or ocean, etc. Once your saber touched the water, it shut off, and would stay off until you "got out."

 

The only reason they could have done this is because of a DELETED SCENE from TPM, mentioned in the screenplay and novelisation (and the comic book version too) but never shown onscreen, not even on the DVD with all the other deleted scenes... that showed Qui Gon scolding Obi-Wan for "leaving his saber on" and getting it wet, forcing him to "clean" it.

 

While it is definately cool looking, seeing the rain "fizzle" and evaporate on Kyle's saber blade in the swamp, it doesn't reflect what was later seen in AOTC with Obi-Wan's saber.*

 

Anyway, it was annoying to have your saber turn off in water, and seemed to be contradicted by AOTC. Otherwise I think the "movie feel" was just enough: it contributed to the game atmosphere without sacraficing the gameplay noticeably.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

* I guess we could speculate that Obi-Wan was using a cheap-o padawan's saber, one that wasn't as water resistent as the one he uses later. He did lose his saber down a shaft in TPM after all.

[razorace]

We've seen NOTHING of the claimed engine additions. Prerelease feature lists mean jack. If they actually have rag doll physics, why haven't we seen it yet? Why? Because it isn't in the game yet!

 

While I apprecaite the work that Raven is doing. They still haven't shown us anything worth full game price yet (when we already have JK2). Why should we buy JKA when there are over interesting titles like Deus Ex 2 and Half-Life 2 in the pipeway?

[Prime]

Originally posted by Kurgan

I guess we could speculate that Obi-Wan was using a cheap-o padawan's saber, one that wasn't as water resistent as the one he uses later. He did lose his saber down a shaft in TPM after all.

My theory always was that there is a big difference between a lightsaber operating with water on it (rain in AOTC) and operating while it was fully submerged. Sort of like water-resistant watches

[razorace]

I agree. Anyway, I think this is a bit off topic.

[shock ~ unnamed]

If 49.99 is that big of a deal then don't buy it.

 

Considering thousands of dollars I've spent on utter **** titles over the last decade or so I'm more than willing to fork over 50 bucks for "more of the same" because that "same" kicked ass.

[Solbe M'ko]

Holy cow! This thread just grew a lot in a couple hours!

 

To touch on my last post, as well as shock's post:

The computer games industry is THE most profitable entertainment industry in the world. Low production costs/ High demand/ high prices.

 

Anyway, maybe i wasn't clear about my expansion pack comment. I meant that, although it has new features, it's still going to be the same game, the play style will not change. Also, if anyone has played Mech 4 Mercs, they would know that it had:

 

A non-linear progression system

 

New special effects

 

New models

 

New maps

 

It was still an expansion. I don't think that JA is an expansion in the classical sense, like C&C Red Alert or anything, I just mean that it is not a new project, more of a continuation of JO. It's not just the engine; this game did not take as long as JO (I think), nor did it really change anything, like JO did to JK.

 

Final Point- The dual saber/staff animations looked almost identical to those in some of the JO mods out there. I think this game is half-baked, not that it's bad.

 

FINAL Final Point- Do you think some of the sabers in KOTOR will have belt-mounted power supplies?

[StormHammer]

Originally posted by shock ~ unnamed

If 49.99 is that big of a deal then don't buy it.

 

Considering thousands of dollars I've spent on utter **** titles over the last decade or so I'm more than willing to fork over 50 bucks for "more of the same" because that "same" kicked ass.

 

Well, I haven't spent that much on games...but I agree with the sentiment.

 

Everything I've seen and read so far indicates that JA will be better than JO.

[Solbe M'ko]

Second.