Deft Aklin Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 Okay folks, I have written a brief e-mail that I soon intend to send to several NAACP officials, major newspapers, major magazines and a few government organizations. Eh, what can I say, I was bored and pissed watching the last NAACP awards. Please, I welcome your feedback on this (especially yours Set). I think once you read my letter you will understand, as this should not stir any racial feelings, but if so, I will close and delete this thread. Thanks for your time, —Jeremy To Whom it may concern: It has been an issue of mine for quite some time, that the NAACP either needs to change it’s name, or start supporting colored individuals of all races. By definition, the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People should sponsor those outside the African American community as well. It has been my experience that they in fact show extreme favoritism to those of African American descent. As proof, simply throw in a tape of the NAACP awards. Every year, a crowd of nearly all African Americans, gather together to celebrate the successes of their most prominent peers. I am an Asian American. I never received such a celebration or endorsement from the organization, nor have I ever seen a non-African American receive assistance from this so-called association for colored people. What about the Native Americans, who have been persecuted since the Europeans first set foot on American soil. Have they ever given a lifetime achievement award to someone like Carlos Santana, Jackie Chan or even perhaps given one in memory of Bruce Lee? Of course not. Why is that? Well, the organization was founded for African Americans, and NOT colored people as their name would claim. I challenge the organization to either live up to their name and begin assisting coloreds of all races, or change the name by which they have misled the world to believe they are the champions of racial discrimination everywhere. Please do not misunderstand my words, the NAACP has done a great deal for the social equality of all colored people, but this is more of a side effect than a true intention. In seeking equality for African Americans, they inadvertently gained it for all other races as well. It is my humble opinion, that in order for true equality in our civilization, that such an organization must now be disbanded anyway. Our country now has laws in place to protect against the rights of the various races, and the very premise of the organization has been out lived. I see it every day, Caucasians, African Americans, Hispanic Americans, Native Americans and Asian Americans live more peaceful and civil existences despite the difference in skin color and heritage. In order for race to no longer be an issue, it must no longer be an issue! One voice, one nation, one race. This is the next step to true equality. Perhaps some are too afraid to take this step, but I, for one, welcome it. Please keep in mind, this has not yet been editted, and will be revised for content prior to it's mailing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtyWombat Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 I'm gonna keep my full opinion under guard and simply state... Sound argument Sid... I agree that the path to true equality most likely lies upon a concentric movement towards a common unifier rather than an individual identifier... Best of luck for a fond response... Wombat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnfrozenCaveman Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 Jeremy, I like it. I think you really pointed it out with this: In order for race to no longer be an issue, it must no longer be an issue! One voice, one nation, one race. I also agree with you, race is becoming less of a problem...but it'll never cease to be a problem, unfortunately. I as well, hope you get a good response, and let me know when you're going to try and get it in the paper, I'll be sure to buy a copy of the D&C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenJediGrinch Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 Race will never cease to be a problem as long as people like Jesse Jackson are here to keep making it a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deft Aklin Posted May 22, 2003 Author Share Posted May 22, 2003 Okay, I editted it according to some feedback on the part of a Native American that is a part of my PA. Anymore possibly offensive content? Any more suggested additions? Thanks for all of the positive feedback. Grinch, it is unfortunate that I can't make negative comments liek that, but I do agree. Although, you must admit, he has done a lot of positive things as well, I think often he takes it a bit too far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devlyyn Sarr Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 Great letter D_S. I'm glad you have taken the time to actually do something rather than just complain about things as I am often tempted to do. The problem with race issues is that, although it is not such a noticable problem today, the fact of the matter is that it was a huge problem 40 years ago. I think that the wounds created during the 60's and before are very deep and will take some time to heal, so I dont really expect organizations like the NAACP to just cease to exist. However, I do agree with your points that the goals of some of these organizations seem often to be aimed towards "advancement" rather than equality. One must realize that racial equality and statistical equality are different things. For instance, if there is a job where a man or woman is excluded by race or sex that is unacceptable. But if one should claim that a company should be forced to hire someone to meet quotas because of race or sex that is equally unacceptable. Once equality has been reached, and is protected by law, that should be the end of it. It seems to me that most people are sensible when it comes to race, even in my home in the South. Thats why I think it is unreasonable to continue to make race an issue, just to have something to strive for. I really think that might be part of it too. I honestly think that some people wouldnt know what to do with themselves if they didnt have something to "strive against", some way to go against the "popular consensus". I dunno, now i'm just rambling. Again, good points D_S. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
setsuko Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 You ask me to help you? Man is evil, capable of nothing but destruction! As long as the average black male spends one third of his life in a jail cell, race will be an issue. As long as coloured people gets way harsher sentences for the same crime, race will be an issue. As long as the only ones allowed in the seats of power are 50+aged white males, race will be an issue. And for you out there saying that "oh, but mentioning it and using quotas to get more coloured and women into power is just making it worse", here's the deal: Quotas are not made to solve the issue now. Hell, these are problems that spans over centuries. What quotas are about is to change the overall attitude, the zeitgeist. Quotas are there for the following generations; when they grow up with coloured senators and female fire cheifs, race and sex will matter just a little less for them. And if they carry on the process, their children will have an upbringing that resembles civilization even more. And so on. What people need is to realize that changing these things takes generations. It do require us, today, to do things that might seem a bit awkward, but that will in the end make the world a less scary place for our kids. This is why we can't just close our eyes and deny the fact that race and sex is an issue, Devlyyn. As long as unarmed black men gets shot down by white police officers during arrests, something is really wrong. As long as women are afraid to go home at night in fear of being raped, something is really wrong, even if you don't see it. As long as kids in black neighbourhoods are afraid of being shot by white policemen, something is really wrong, even if you don't see it. As long as mexicans are used as slaves, who earn nothing and live in constant fear of being taken by the cops or even being murdered, something is really wrong, even though you don't happen to meet those things in your immediate environment. Just because you don't see the worst problems in your everyday life doesn't by far mean that they are less real. Ok, to the topic: D_S, you do make a point. It is a problem in the US that there are organizations that fights for black people's rights, there's organizations that fights for indians' rights, there's organizations that fights for asians' rights... but somewhere, they miss the point. They attack the syndromes, not the problem itself. They work against the manifestation of rasism in everyday life, but most of them miss the core. The power structure. The US is ruled by a white patriarchy. The amount of top 500 CEO's that are not white men can be counted on one hand's fingers. And as long as the corporations, and not the people, has the power, those not belonging to the white patriarchy will always lose. Because the capitalistic system requires someone to lose if someone is to win. For you to have those cheap Nike sneakers, some asian kid has to sit in a sweat-shop, earning nickels. For you to have that cheap gas, some arabian woman has to die from a cluster bomb. But; here come's my point: this is not only true on a global level, but also on a local level: For you to have cheap service, there has to be someone who can produce that service at as low a price as possible. Therefore, you need a population that is so poor that they can be forced to work for $3/hour. That's why the white patriarchy needs coloured people to stay poor: if everyone achieved a fair pay for their jobs, they'd be forced to use some of those $300 million they earned last year! *gasp!* So yes, it all boils to this: you have to choose. Either, you keep the poor people around, and maintain the standard of cheap service. Or, you start taking higher taxes, you raise the minimum wage to about $8, and start making labour unions. Since this would be branded as communism in the extremely rightwing US, you won't do that. So there'll always be a need for a large percentage of the population being poor. If there were no poor people around, your society would crumble, since the whole economy is built on cheap wage slaves. So, in many ways, the modern corporate world resembles a feudal system; both needs a (un)healthy amount of serfs. No, D_S. The solution is not so simple as to make more award ceremonies, and clapping your hands together faster more often. As long as that waitress at the diner works for $3/hour, you'll stay serfs. As long as poor families can't afford healthcare, you'll stay serfs. As long as a huge part of the population is cut out of higher education, not because of lack of interest, but because of lack of funds, you'll stay serfs. As long as a you can earn so little from a real job that selling crack cocaine looks like a good alternative, you'll stay serfs, whether you like it or not. For those who is still interested, read some of the latter works of Malcolm X, John K Cooley, Naomi Klein, Noam Chomsky or James Wilson. After all, the smartest attacks on the american society comes from the minds of some really smart americans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtyWombat Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 So Set, let me get this straight... Your conclusion is, in summary: Racism stems from Capitalism and the resolution is Communism... Interesting...??? Wombat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
setsuko Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 No, Wombat. Communism is not a good solution in this case. You can't go from a capitalistic society to a communistic society in one night. But turning the capitalism into democracy would be a good step. And, after all, what I promote is rather a democracy with a scent of socialism, not a communism. There is way to big problems inherited with a communism for it to work on a large scale, such as in the USA. It works perfectly in small units (like, 10 people), but it is poorly made for larger scales. There, I guess syndicalism would be a smarter solution. Or, as I mentioned, democracy. I mean, after declaring that the US is the 'champion of democracy', it would only be fair if the society started to resemble democracy. EDIT: why I mentioned communism in my first post is because things like workers getting a fair salary, workers having rights, employers having to take care of its workers, the government keeping its members alive... these basic democratic ideas are branded communism in the USA. As long as such a large part of your population is treated as dirt, you are not a democracy, it's as simple as that (oh, and the fact that no country that enforces death sentences can be called a democracy, but that is a totally different discussion). And since it is bad for the corporations, they call it communism and hope that the McArthy vibes still scares you from claiming it. Again, as long as you are faithful serfs, the corporates lets you go to the booth onces every fourth year. It's not like it matters, since the democrats and republicans both enforces the same pro-corporate politics. As long as this circle continues, people'll stay poor. "The average Black male Live a third of his life in a jail cell Cause the world is controlled by the white male And the people don' never get justice And the women don' never get respected And the problems don' never get solved And the jobs don' never pay enough So the rent always be late. Can you relate? We living in a police state" -stic.man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deft Aklin Posted May 22, 2003 Author Share Posted May 22, 2003 Ah, Set, you bring an interesting viewpoint to the table, but it is inherantly flawed at it's core. You point out the reason for poverty, not the reason for racism. Racism is caused by a few bad seeds putting a bad taste in everyones mouth. Look at it like this. Every year, 100,000 African Americans go to college and get a degree. Every year, a few thousand African Americans shoot each other dead on the streets. Which is the stereotype everyone sees? There is your route to racism. People see what the media shows them. They don't show them the successful African American Doctors, the Asian American Businessmen, the Hispanic American Corporate VPs or even the Native American Casino owners.No, they show them the the body counts, the statistics, the crack dealers and gang bangers. This is what people see. This is what people remember. Capitalism is not the cause of racism. If you are going to take this stand Set, consider blaming the media instead. BTW Set, I know you love to do so, but not everything can be blamed on the US government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devlyyn Sarr Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 The world is not a perfect place, I hope I didnt come off sounding naive in that sense. I'm sorry if I offended anyone by what I said, but its what I believe based on what I have experienced. After all, you cant really speak on that which you dont know! So hopefully my comments based on my limited insight did not cause anyone to be offended. With that said, I realize that these issues are a bit charged on both sides so I think it would be best to bow out of this conversation...at least in this setting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deft Aklin Posted May 22, 2003 Author Share Posted May 22, 2003 Originally posted by Devlyyn Sarr The world is not a perfect place, I hope I didnt come off sounding naive in that sense. I'm sorry if I offended anyone by what I said, but its what I believe based on what I have experienced. After all, you cant really speak on that which you dont know! So hopefully my comments based on my limited insight did not cause anyone to be offended. With that said, I realize that these issues are a bit charged on both sides so I think it would be best to bow out of this conversation...at least in this setting. My apologies if I or Set frightened you off. Don't be afraid to speak your mind in this post, so long as your thoughts are logical and not discriminating againts another, then it is fine. You might be slightly intimidated by Set and my exchange here, but I assure you that when all is said and done, no enemies will be made here. Just don't get personal and argue the issue and you will be fine. Set and I love to argue US vs. the World crud. Set seems to think that other governments are somehow inherently better than ours. Myself, I think all governments are irrepairably flawed. It is in the nature of man to make these systems of leadership not work. Only a selfless dictator could ever make it work properly, but a power corrupts all men, and this shall never happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtyWombat Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 Originally posted by Darth_Sidious BTW Set, I know you love to do so, but not everything can be blamed on the US government. I agree with you argument for the most part... But I wouldn't go that far... They did manage to forget or dilute a lot of what our forefathers put in paper... Set almost comes off as a Libertarian... Wombat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
setsuko Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 No, D_S. The government is not the only bad guys here. The corporations are much worse: after all, their CEO's don't have to hold back so that they can be re-elected... I'd say your arguments are flawed here, D_S. Because the root of racism is poverty. The day the average black man and the average white man earns the same, the structure that keeps racism alive get's a big fat revolver slug in the knee. The day women earns the same as men for the same work, the most important blow to sexism has been struck. Know why? Racism and sexism is about attitude. When a black man doesn't earn the same as a white man what idea does that teach the society? That black men are not worth as much as white men. Nothing more, nothing less. In a society emanating the idea that your colour affects your worth, how the hell could you ever think you can get rid of racism? Yes, you are very correct that the media attention is bad for coloured. That they show only coloured people doing crimes, far out of proportion. But did you ever sit down and think who controls the media, and why do they choose to do it this way? The corporations own the US media. This is really sick, but true. The corporations needs poor people. Just like the rulers in a feudal society, they need to fool the population that the rulers has a reason of existing. That you need them. So they teach you, through the nine o'clock news, that coloured people are killers. That they are poor because they choose a life of crime. They don't mention that their only choise is a job with a $3/hour salary, not enough to feed a family? They, together with the government, wants you to believe that they are protecting you from problems. What they don't say openly, though, is that they cause so many of them. Capitalism is not the cause of racism. If you are going to take this stand Set, consider blaming the media instead.[/Quote] It is funny to see that though you see a part of the problem, you have huge blind spot. Don't you see that media is capitalism? Or did CNN suddenly become run by the people when I looked the other way? Almost all newspapers, TV channels and radio channels in the US are owned by companies, who in turn are owned by corporations. Wasn't you aware of this? Media is one of the weapons of the companies, it decides what you hear. What you see. What you'll talk to with your mates at work. Does it want you to talk about how it sucks that almost all of the tiny healthcare that existed in the US has dissapeared the last years? No. They want you to talk about how good it is to get more cops, so you can keep all those evil hoodlums in place. When all the media is owned by rich white men, media is the capitalism. This is a basic fact that I thought you knew. EDIT: oh, and as long as you argue with my arguments, I don't take personal offense. As well as I try to argue with other people's arguments, not their persons. This way, you don't make enemies, as long as the person you argue with has at least a sliver of selfdistance. Me and D_S does it now and then. He thinks I attack the US government alone, and that I'm just anti-american. When the simple fact is that the US government is the most important one, since it affects people all over the world, and because if we discussed the flaws in the swedish government, he wouldn't know what we discussed! "They say karate means empty hand - that makes it perfect for the poor man." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deft Aklin Posted May 22, 2003 Author Share Posted May 22, 2003 No Set, I am fully aware of who controls the media. It makes god business sense to use shock to make money. If people can't look away from the news, then they will wait through the commercials. This is my over all point, made into a short story for better comprehension: (Please read the whole thing before judging me) You have three children, two African American and one white. All attend the same school, all of their parents make the same money. All are given the same advantages. The one African American student graduates top in his class, goes to Yale and becomes a wealthy Doctor. The other African American drops out of school and sells Methamphetamines for a living. The White student barely graduates and goes on to be a middle class blue collar worker for the rest of his life. Now I ask you why? They all had the same advantages, they were all given the same resources and lived in the same neighborhood. Why would they all walk different paths? The answer is simple, choice. *Feels the Matrix in his veins after saying this* We are nothing more than a collection of choices we make. The real question is not why African Americans or any other race for that matter is being held back, it's a matter of why they are holding themselves back. I went to school in a suburban neighborhood. Our school had about 10% of the students African American. All of their families lived in good neighborhoods, much like mine. All of them were given access to the same libraries, scholarships and teachers as well. Why is it they chose to be suburban gang bangers rather than take advantage of their surroundings. I am not saying this to be racist in any way. I saw just as many white and Hispanic people doing the same thing.You see, it's not a matter of what advantages a people has, it's a matter of how they choose to utilize those advantages. I could have a million dollar daddy and still drop out of high school and be a failure. The successes of our predecessors is irrelevant. Our personal success is the true measure of our personal worth. So again, I ask you, is this a race issue, or a matter of motivation? Is it them being held back, or holding themselves back? The reason you don't here so many complaints from Eastern Indians, Arabic Americans and Asian Americans is this, they take full advantage of what they are given access too. This sounds as if I am stereotyping, to some extent, the statistics tell that this is no stereotype, but a fact. The current serfs you refer to are nothing more than an unfortunate byproduct of lack of education 30 years ago. This is not the case anymore. All colors are offered the same education, equally, in the same schools. So what is the excuse now? These race related organizations need to be abolished. In their stead, place one organization, The National Association for the Advancement of the Human Race. This organization would assist those that truly needed it. The Valedectorian of a Downtown LA school that can't afford college, or get a loan. It could assist organizations assisting not whites or blacks or Native Americans, but the people, whatever their skin color. Those schools that didn't quite offer as good a service as their suburban counter parts could have fully stocked libraries. There are a million possibilities, but help us advance as a whole, not as is dictated by organizations judging us by our color, the very nature of which is not to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
setsuko Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 Your main error is attempting to create equality in a system that is based on people having 'a different worth'. As long as all people are not equal on an economic basis, it is easier to 'excuse' racism in the society, and harder to remove it. After all, if I'm not as much worth if I decide to become a teacher as if I decide to become a lawyer, what stops you from thinking that black, asian or indian persons are not as much worth as white people? If you remove one underprivileged group, it will only be replaced with another. The need for an underpriveleged working class that live in poverty and who can provide cheap labour will always be around in a profit-minded corporate capitalism. This has been known for more than a century by now. As long as some people are considered more worth than another, the struggle against racism is useless: if you finally (highly unlikely) get people to stop judging peope by the colour of their skins, you'll still have people judging you based on your social class. So you haven't really gained anything; you have only changed the racistic focus from colour to class (though the class "racism" do exist already). Your error is working for something in an environment that is not built to support it. Like wondering why you can't, no matter how much you try, use anti-aliasing when moding Duke Nuke'em 3d. A capitalistic society builds on the simple rule that all humans are not equal, doesn't have the same rights, and doesn't deserve the same living standard. Within those rules, the anti-racism struggle is bound to fail. As long as people are not worth the same, the problem will be around. And since the rich and influential people are those who win on the capitalistic model that all people are not equal, it is there you have to begin. I admire your goal. But I sincerely believe you walk the wrong road for getting there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnfrozenCaveman Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 Hmm...*looks at watch* I started reading this thread ten minutes ago. And frankly, I have to re-read all your posts at least twice Set! 'Cause you put so much into them, and I think you're a good writer! I don't see why you (Set) always bad mouth the US gov. Who do nations call to when they have a famine? Most of the time they are looking for food slid their way from the United States. Granted, the US gov. has messed up a few times, Bay of Pigs- we set up governments and then 50 years later decide we don't want them (Taliban). Okay, so we aren't socialist...but damnit, if I want to buy a gun I will go and buy a gun. Poverty: Well, that's why we have welfare, to get people out of poverty, but you know what? People abuse the welfare system. They pop out kids faster than a rabbit can so they can remain on welfare. I mean, hell, who wouldn't want free money? Frankly, I think the welfare system should drastically be changed but it won't happen because it'd cause to many people to get off their asses and find a job. I'm not really going to say more, but that's just what I think. Racism will always be an issue, it always has been. And D_S, I think you are making a good point. I hope they listen to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
setsuko Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 UnfrozenCaveman, who do people call when they have a famine? The UN. And what country hasn't paid it's membership dues, and owes the organization $1.7 billions. Ooh, impressive. Most of the military juntas in the South America's since the 50's were put in power by the US government. Juntas that are responsible for untold million deaths, and the poor situation in that continent today. And as long as people buys a gun when they feel like it, you'll continue to kill each other in schools, offices and clocktowers. Is not being preyed upon by armed murderers not worth losing the right to be armed at any time? I think so. Now, unfortunately, you make me very angry here, UnfrozenCaveman. Why? Because you buy the media picture that welfare is only abused, and that people are lazy and use it for free money. Welfare is what upholds a living standard in the whole society. How you treat your poor tells a lot about the rest of the people in the society. As long as you have jobs with no fair salary, you'll need welfare. Do you think you could support a family of five if you earned 3$/hour? No. When you can hold a job, and still not afford a living, welfare is what keeps you from not dying. And hell, welfare is so little money it's insane, few persons who had a choise of a wellpaid job or welfare would choose welfare. But that choise doesn't exist, so who's there to blame them? This is my main gripe with the american psyche; you are far too confident with leaving people behind. Just because someone is poor, he's not worthy of taking care of. If he is a burden, he's unwanted, all acording to the belief that all men are not equal. You alienate people and call them beggars and hoodlums, and try to forget that they are human too. You'd rather see their kids die from typhoid than pay more taxes. Because "welfare is only abused, anyway!". And why, while you dehumanize your own poor people, it's not hard to see how easy it is for you to dehumanize the rest of the world; why not bomb another third world country, they are only numbers in the statistics anyway? No, my friend; these are humans. They are worthy of the respect of having the chance not to be judged beforehandedly. After all, who put them in their position? The society. So who is to take the blame, and take care of them? The society. What you mess up, you clean up. That is the mindset I request for the americans to develop. A sense that actions actually have consequences. You want to cut away the little welfare that remains? Then you truly remove the small choise some people have of whether or not to become criminal. And the day you want to achieve democray, you have to be prepared to realize that all men are equal. Not only in regislation, but how you treat them. How you value them. How you judge them with your eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deft Aklin Posted May 23, 2003 Author Share Posted May 23, 2003 Okay Set, now you are taking on an argument of which you have no first hand experience, let me tell you a little story: My girlfriend, in the prospect of making a better life for herself and her children, quit her job of three years to work at a hospital. After four months in their employ, that hospital terminated her. Yes, that's right, for those of you that are US citizens, you know that she was ineligible for unemployment money since she had not been at her job for more than six months. So, while she was looking for a new job, she continued working a part-time job and sought welfare assistance. Here is where it gets funny. I was sitting next to her when the welfare agent told her this, "Quit your job and we can help you." With a look of shocked disbelief, she turned to me. Neither of us could believe it. Welfare refused to help her in the slightest so long as she had a job. So your theory is again fataly flawed Set, welfare only helps those that refuse to help themselves, period. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Now, back to the topic at hand. Set, what you don't seem to realize is that racism is a false reality, it does not exist so much as is propogated through the media and by these race related organizations. I have seen well qualified white workers turned away to fill quotas with under-qualified, uneducated Hispanic and African American workers. Is this fair? Better yet, is this reverse discrimination? We have laws that protect the rights of minorities to be treated as equals, yet organizations like the NAACP keep race an issue. I truly believe, that without groups like these, race WOULD no longer be an issue. The under-priviledged group you are clinging to, is nothing more than a question of education. If a person does not receive that education, normally due to a personal choice, then they are not under-priviledged so much as under-achieving. I have seen well educated African Americans attain far better lives than I, or any white man I know, because they utilized what they had access to. Rather than sitting around complaining about how 'the man' was keeping him down, they made a life for themselves. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Back to the US bashing issue, I have in the past seen very well informed arguments against the US on your part Set, but in this case, you are wrong. This is something that you would have to see to truly understand, but you are wrong. You can read about the US all you want, but certain things can only be truly judged from first hand experience. You yourself are beginning to fal to the machinations of the media mogul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
setsuko Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 If we are to have a discussion where I am to be automatically dismissed simply because I don't live in the country, I am not interested in this discussion, since you don't allow me in it. Sorry D_S, but if you are to show this bad a lack of sportsmanship in this discussion, I am no longer interested. I have replies to your post, since I believe you to be as off target as a drunk dart-player, but for me, the discussion is hereby over. You showed that you are not interested in my answers anyway, to little surprise. I had come to expect better from you. Setsuko out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deft Aklin Posted May 23, 2003 Author Share Posted May 23, 2003 Set, no, you get the wrong impression. I am simply saying that as far as welfare is concerned, I have seen first hand that, at least in the US, it does not work. Perhaps that is due to the rules of the system, but none-the-less, you came to the defense of it. As far as your other arguments, I have been giving them merit, but you must stop the US bashing Set, it does you no justice. Yes, perhaps the US has done a lot of bad things, perhaps they still are, but so are most other countries. It's the nature of politics. Sorry if I offend you in telling you this, but not every problem in the world can be directed at the US governement, it just doesn't make sense. The US can't be doing everything wrong, else it would not be the powerhouse that it is. If my patriotism offends you, then I fear that there are many mor eindividulas that would offend you even more, because at least I try to take an intellectual and factual outlook on the actions of my country, unlike others who might be more inclined to blind patriotism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
setsuko Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 Tough ****. You offended me. I can take a fair share of arguments, but I'm not here to be disrespected. Again, I expected better from you. Setsuko out. For real. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenJediGrinch Posted May 24, 2003 Share Posted May 24, 2003 It would probably amaze Set that I am in favor of welfare, even though I am by definition a "conservative." But there has to be limits. The biggest problem in the welfare system is that we give money to people, and they don't do anything in return. Maybe not the majority, but a good percentage of people on welfare do nothing but have more children, so that they can get more money. There should be a system set up to where if you recieve welfare you are made to either find a job, go to school so you can learn a trade and eventually take care of yourself and your family, and if you do neither you get no more money. End of story. To admit poverty is no disgrace for a man; but, to make no effort to escape it is indeed disgraceful. - Thucydides, "History of the Peloponnesian War" (c. 413 B.C.) We did not accept anyone's support without paying for it. Instead, we worked and toiled; we kept working day and night so as not to be an expense to any of you. We did this, not because we do not have the right to demand your support; we did it to be an example for you to follow. While we were with you we used to tell you, 'Whosoever refuses to work is not allowed to eat.' - 2Thessalonians 3: 8-10, Good News Version Welfare's purpose should be to eliminate, as far as possible, the need for its own existence. -Ronald Reagan, 1970. Indeed, the very worst thing which you can do for generational indigence is to reward it with large amounts of unearned money, for even the most innumerate of people can work out the simple arithmetic of being paid to stay in bed. What do you do? You stay in bed. - Kevin Myers You have no more right to consume happiness without producing it than to consume wealth without producing it. - George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swediot=) Posted May 24, 2003 Share Posted May 24, 2003 you raise a very good point. Im not gonna speak on this point because I have some opinions that you or anyone else might not like to hear. ..... Im not racist or anything like that many of my best frieds are Asian, polenesian, maori etc etc but im not gonna go into my views Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thrackan Solo Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 Once I thought about it the NAACP doesnt want racial equality . They want racial supieriority. We all have color, if we didnt have color than we wouldnt exist. We would be blank, nothing, existless. So why doesnt the NAACP stand up for me? The White colored male? Where were they when my dad lost his job to even out the racial level in his work place? For a so-called "racial equality". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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