"Balancing" The Sabers and Saber Styles

[Luc Solar]

The quotations marks are just for you Spider Al

 

We'll have 3 different saber combinations: Single saber, two bladed saber and two sabers. With every saber style we got 3 "substyles" >> fast, medium and strong. (blue/yellow/red -sort of thing)

 

The big question is: how should all this be balanced? Here's how I think the sabers should be from a realistic POW

 

(By "good" attack I mean that it gets past defences. By "weak" I mean doing less damage/hit)

 

Double bladed saber

Good but weak offense. Good defence against sabers, but poor defense against blasters. (It should be quite difficult to block shots that come straight towards you)

 

Two Sabers

*Excellent but weak attack. Poor defence against a saber. (try blocking a powerful blow with only one hand)

* Excellent defence against blasters. (Blocking a blaster shot does not require much physical force)

 

Single saber

* Medium but powerful offense. Medium defence against sabers.

* Medium defence against blaster shots.

 

(to be continued)

[Solbe M'ko]

...and that just about covers it. You took the words out of my mouth, Solar. The staff should have little jabbing and stabbing moves that do little damage, like Darth maul used in TPM. The dual sabers should have lots of spinning moves and twirls, like Anakin used in ATC. The single saber should retain its cool stances, blue like Obi, red like Vader, but I think that yellow could benefit from some new animations. Other than that, your ideas are 100% parallel to mine. Creepy...

[XanaJedi]

I would rather see the double and the staff saber to do the most dmg, now they wont be used that much and it will be turned back to JO, and thats not the game i expect

 

especially the staff saber should be the one with the most dmg

[Rad Blackrose]

Actually, two sabers would have a slightly better defensive application in both parrying blows as well as using both sabers to block.

 

EDIT: Wait, can't mention defending with reverse grasping, there's a chance your saber could go straight down your elbow.

[Rockstar]

ahem!!!

 

umm PrimoSidone??

 

the double bladed sabre would have by far the LEAST offense!!!

if you had a brain you'd realise that a double blade would be VERY restrictive you cannot slash very well and cannot perform long swings as you would cut urself in half (lol how funny would it be if maul did that lmao)

 

however you would have very good defense and beable to guard 2 sides at once

 

but it would be weaker and your swinging strength would be very little

 

thats very good luc solar, thats exactly what they should do, as that would be fair and stop servers being "TOTALLY" filled with sad wannabe darth mauls (lol)

 

i think the single sabre would be the strongest attacking but the duel sabres would be very fast attacking. the sabrelance would be very hard to hit as it would have good defense, but weak for attacking (i think most of its attacks should involve spins)

[Luc Solar]

Will saber stances cost points? IMO the system in JO was pretty silly. If you have to pay 8 points to get Strong stance then strong stance should be clearly better than Medium or Fast.

 

Think about NF saber only games - Do we really need this with all the different kind of sabers? It's obvious that everyone will have all stances and if Strong stance costs more it must be better, right? So everyone will use only one stance making the weaker stances obsolete.

 

On the other hand - if Raven strives for balancing the 3 stances (as in 'making them all useful') then why would Strong cost 8 times as much as Fast? Makes no sense.

 

To sum it up: all stances should be available for free.

[Rockstar]

i agree with most of what your saying

 

i think that stances should be payed for in points but as you said they should be WORTH the points

 

tho i think they should make all players in mp restricted to a standard sabre personally, coz its just gonna end up with all the sabre types being nerked to oblivion, and i don't like the fact that the most common and practical (single standard sabre) will be the least used

 

however i think the lunge should have been put under the strong style..... would have made it much better

[JaledDur]

Reading the latest news on TFN, I have to say that I think the devs have just thrown in more stuff to "make it look cool". I really hope this isn't the case.

[Reprehence]

Why do people try to defend their ideas using some kind of "real-life" logic. The game should be balanced so that it is a balanced and fun experience - not because it would be "closer" to "reality." I think Luc Solar makes some good suggestions, but not because it makes "sense," but because it will probably make a more balanced and therefore a better game. I assume that most of this talk has to do with MP and not SP - where people aren't as worried about balance.

 

It strikes me that JKII balance seemed to be based on the flight sim model - fast fighters but small guns vs. slow bombers with torpedos. It worked and made the game challenging, but it is hardly related to how one really fights with swords.

[Mufaza2000]

Personally I would love to see them make a Saber style that could be (Depending on the style selected) a double bladed saber, then change the style and it would be a single bladed like in phantom menace (Tatooine scene). Also a style when the saber could be twisted and become dual blades. No that would be cool be cause the player could have the diversity of the sabers on the fly so that the strategy could be formulated based on the situation.

[toms]

i doubt anyone will agree with me, but it thikn you should be limited to 2 saber styles (pick any two). It would make switching betweens styles a lot easier (i button to switch, rather than cycle).

 

oh, and i agree with most of the balancing issues mentioned above.

[HertogJan]

Originally posted by toms

i doubt anyone will agree with me, but it thikn you should be limited to 2 saber styles (pick any two). It would make switching betweens styles a lot easier (i button to switch, rather than cycle).

 

oh, and i agree with most of the balancing issues mentioned above.

 

Hmm yeah it makes switching easier, but I think I'm going to miss the other style too quite a lot It would force players to develop their own style, which is a good thing imo

[Sargasso]

I'm going to out on a limb here and say that I'll want the 3 saber arming combinations to be noticabley different than anything Raven eventually puts out after all their patches.

 

That's where my money would go if we were placing bets.

[babywax]

It would be neat if there was a single saber, single handed style.

The advantage would be that you could use force while fighting. No grip of course, no lightning, but basics, like push and pull. So mid swing someone does a DFA against you, you could push him back.

It would have lower damage, and lower blocking as disadvantages, I think that would be very cool as a single saber style.

 

I like the idea of having only two styles so you don't have to cycle through too many, but instead of limiting, maybe they could make a menu where you can choose which ones you can cycle through?

[BloodRiot]

I think that in one way or another..the 3 saber types MUST be balanced... I mean... I can't force anything on other online players.. but I find it better when I enter a server and I see (aprox.) 1/3 of the players with single, another 1/3 with 2 sabers and the rest with double bladed sabers... furthermore... between the saber types as well as same saber saber types... i'd like to see diferent models with diferent styles of fighting moves and techniques.

 

But ok... should some features be only aethetical or should they be actually diferent? What should count as gameplay pros vs cons and what should just be eye candy and not affect gameplay?

 

It is my belief that the sabertypes should be both.. aethetica lsi impossible not to be... some of us prefer the single saber while other prefer the other 2 for various reasons... but the type of handling will invariably be diferent if you face it realistically in full or at least partially.

 

The stances however pose a more delicate question in my opinion. I'd like the saber stances to simply pick the type of moves... like A for simple and practical fighting as opposed to B that is more flashy maybe to confuse the opponent or something.

Well this is cool... however it still calls for some advantages vs disadvantages or it will be nothing more that a cheery on top of the ice cream... but if it does influence gameplay... what if i like the visual aspect of stance X but i prefer the pros and cons of stance Y???

 

So the best i can think of (not exactly realistic but gameplay vs aethetic oriented) you'd have 4 steps in configuring your saber style:

 

1: Saber Type

2: Allocate points between saber offense, saber defense and force use (this would emulate the time spent training each)

3: Saber Stance/s (only affects the fighting style in visual terms... saber efficiency is regulated in the previous step. Much liek customizing a character's appearance...you'd pick the available moves using a pre-generated combo list or you'd customize your own.)

4: Saber Hilt and colors.

 

So the effect of JO's stances would be configured in step 2... the type of fighting... you'd pick stuff like speed vs strength, offense vs defense. So whatever youdont like... make it so you like it. And the JA stances would be in fact reduced to aesthetic preference and nothing more.

 

Well In JO this would be unthinkable to the player... but since people are gonna spend some time choosing the cooler look... they might as well could choose the cooler moves and cooler saber.

 

Also... no one could blame Raven for unbalanced gameplay... if you think it's unbalanced.. go check your badlyconfigured fighter.

 

the important thing is that every pro hasa con so there's no actual uber config... like paper, rock, scissors... there's alwaysone that breaks through the other.

 

And the saber types would have their own pros and cons that would act as modifiers for the stats configured in step2.

 

Well many mayclaim it's too complex to be effective... i can say that i admit it may be... but i would surelly loose time learning my way through this... anyway it doesnt matter cuz the game wont be liek this and I just voiced my opinion.

 

Cheers to you all.

[Obi-Wan X]

I believe that the lightstaff SHOULD have the least offense, with extremely good defense capabilities ( though terrible against blasters). The lightstaff doesn't seem like it could be positioned for well rehearsed , well placed attacks. But at the same time I feel as if the lightstaff should also have the ability to be the second best offensive weapon. ( im sorry if anyone has repeated any of this)

 

 

Since there are two sides of the blade, connecting with combos and such would seemingly present much more damage than the single bladed lightsaber, while these probably will not be constent blows, they still should be able to comit more blows than the single bladed saber. Take a look at the trailer, a female woman clearly brings the lightstaff out with a one handed holding position ( I heard they couldn't use certain force powers with the lightstaff because of issues with needing two hands...if this is true then perhaps certain stances will be able to use certain force powers for the staff), and she strikes the vent in a quick manner, in such a way that both sides hit the vent at different times, and at the same time, in one move ( perhaps two, but the move is so fluently synchronized and quick that if it is a possible combo, then it should prove to be an extremely versible weapon)! Clearly this is not a weak offensive weapon! Then again, later on we see yet another move with the lightstaff, a jedi twirls the blade over his head, not only blocking a bowcaster bolt in the process, but having extremely great range, and while he blocks the bolts he also takes down a weequay with ease. You can also see a jedi hopping from above and blocking a few bolts off from an enemy with the staff. Not to mention the ability to kick in any direction, which only adds to the carnage ( I expect to see many newbs button smashing the lightstaff, while the 'leets' use the blade and slam home with the weapon everytime in close quarter combat.

 

Just these few pieces of footage we can see that the lightstaff can't be the worst offensive weapon, if the single bladed lightsaber is better, then I would have to see Yoda like combat from it

 

Now, to twin blades. I believe it should have perhaps the best defense and offensive combat ( though slightly harder to use than the lightstaff, with apparently shorter range and short, twirly moves). But at the same time it also depends on how the defense is applied, it will more than likely not have terribly better defense than the single bladed lightsaber, but at least significantly so. You can see in the trailer, a twilek spinning one blade in front of her, missing a foe, and the opposite blade stabbing into an enemy positioned behind her . Judging by the footage, the twin blades seem to be extremely fast, overwhelming weapons. Not meant to be used SLOWLY, which I think will exclude any form of red style for it ( Though I don't believe there will be a red style for the lightstaff either). In the footage, a male human is twisting around his blades so quickly it puts the single bladed blue style to shame, not to mention it is more consistent in actually slamming home. I believe the twin sabers will be harder to master than the single bladed sabers.

Defense wise, I don't see any 'double blocking', meaning I don't see someone blocking a hit with one saber and blocking another with the other blade. Though you can instantly see an opponent blocking attacks with the same animation, the opponent crossing his blades together and blocking the hit in an X like formation. Though I can't comment much more about that, you also saw a picture with a yellow Twi-lek blocking bolts with the blades in the cross type block as well, I hope thats not the only way blocking is done in JA.

 

Now on to single bladed lightsaber. What can be said? It will probably be the most accurate weapon, with medium ranks in defense and offense. I think I saw a new style as well, though I could be wrong. A jedi has a yellow lightsaber, holding it out in the lightstaff like stance, and he swings it across and then twirls it above his head. Could be more tricky style for the single blade. Who knows.

 

This is how I rank things.

 

Offensive Capability

 

1. Twinsabers ( by a hair due to accuracy with moves, though this could be argued due to the moves we've seen done with the lightstaff

 

2. Lightstaff

 

3. Single Blade

 

Defense

 

1. Lightsaber

2. Twin Saber

3. Lightstaff ( Though it has great offensive attacks, which could be used defensively as seen, I really don't think we'll be seeing parrys and blocks that were done by Maul . It could, but I don't think we'll see someone blocking a hit from one end, and blocking a hit from another end with an animation created exactly for that situation. Though could you block hits from two different places? Probably. That goes for twin sabers as well.

 

Ah well, I probably contradicted myself a few times in there, but oh well. That's my opinion on lightsaber combat.

[Stormtrooper X]

In JO you could use stuff like force push, and force lightning while using a one saber, but not at the same time as attacking. They're making the lightstaff, dual sabers, and one saber balanced with force powers and normal attack and defence power.

[JaledDur]

I doub't that anything like any of this will be in the game. I've convinced myself that the game will, in fact, be lame. Yes, I live a sad existence, and YES the glass is half empty. On the slightly less dim side, there are some great ideas here, and maybe after JA is released a nice mod can be made for it to take some of this stuff into account.

[toms]

at least you will be presently suprised if it turns out to be good, whereas i was unpleasently disappointed with JO after i convinced myself it would be awesome.

[BloodRiot]

Yup I agree... I just post some ideas to say how I would like... I dint have the slightest hope Raven or LEC will listen. I can't blame them... when I made the fetts I only listened when the comments pointed out errors in the making... and Tyrion was only shown when it was done cuz me and Absath didnt want people to start sugesting stuff while it was in the works... not cuz we didnt care about our potential "buyers" but cuz it would complicate things more than it would help.

 

Besides.. we modders are so clever and enginious that, as JaledDur pointed, some of the ideas will be taken up by a mod team or another... the modding community did some wonderful stuff with a very user unfriendly software... try to imagine it now that Raven said this time things would be much better regarding the sources and sdk tools

 

However I am concerned about the base stuff since it's the stuff the mods are gonna work upon... as long as balance is good from the start and it's not screwed up with future patches... I'mpretty confidant that there will mods that will please everybody... let's hope that the server search engine will allow us to sort by code as well for us to better find the ones we like.

[Solbe M'ko]

If Raven released a stance editing tool it would rock. If the stances could be used without a mod it would roxors. If the damage/speed could be regulated to make all stances statistaically equal, plus usable, plus editable, it would roxorors!

[toms]

by toms in another thread

Saber hit damage should be based more on the hit location than the hit strength... With legs and arm hits causing less damage, then body hits, then head hits.

 

What hit strength could do is affect the amount of "penetration" the saber causes.

- A "light" hit to the left arm might only cause left arm damage (20%) and then stop.

- A "medium" hit might cross into the next area (left arm damage 20% + left torso damage 25% = 45%)

- A "heavy" (red stance, 2 handed) hit might penetrate 3 areas (left arm 20% + left torso 25% + right torso 25% = 70%

 

As it is, i think the lighter stance hits are supposed to be like the light touches Count Dooku uses to Obi-wan in Episode 2, but because the saber visually continues to pass into the body, just like the red stances, it makes no sense for them to do less damage.

 

This shouldn't be too hard to do, as they alreas have hit zones defined from SO

 

is it good form to quote yourself?

[Ken Kasanagi]

i fink instead of basing the balance of saber combat by its damage/defense, each saber type/style should be balance by its moves and attacks can should be highly distinisgushable from one style to another; instead of just swinging the saber(s) based on the direction key u r pressing, an arcade style input should be used (eg forward ->forward -> attack aka soul calibur, tekken etc). that way the style/type would be much better define by its actual form rather than a simple system of offense vs defense with each style/type sharing pretty much the same moves. for example, the dual sabers would be ideal for fast but weak combos, so its should have fast comboable attacks that other sabers dont have. the saber combat in JO was pretty much flawed in every way so i hope they would make sumfing different this time around, but from those bootleg video of JA, its not looking too promising.....

[Rockstar]

i really liked babywaxes idea of having the single bladed sabre have single and both handed styles where the single handed style would give it unmatched force usage while slashing.

 

i think that using one of the 2 alternative sabre types should use up alot of force points because i think that even though there are 3 types, the single sabre should still be the most common. yes i do think the diversity is cool, but i KNOW that if they don't do that i'm just gonna sigh when i see maybe the 1/100th person using single style while the rest of the server is filled with tryhard darth mauls.

[Rockstar]

this is directed to toms

 

i think all of your ideas you've stated are great. however i really don't like the idea of having model damage depending on hit location.

 

yes that would be very cool when using guns, however with a lightsaber its only really one hit anyway which will determine the fight, may it be a slash or stab to the torso which is fatal. a decapitation.. need i say lol, or a stab to a limb (which would be SOOO painful:( ) which would probably cause the jedi to fall down in agony (as we saw with obi1 in EP2). or at worsed a dismembered limb, which would not only get the person out of the battle but cause them to immediately into shock.

 

so guns, realistic shot damage yes. sabres imho are fine