HertogJan Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 Originally posted by txa1265 HOWEVER, I do wish a MOD could dump it to the swamp ... Mike Yup, but plz don't close it, I like to follow this dicussion.. Even though I'm not actively involved in it, since I haven't read any SW books I'll just report this post to a mod then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solo4114 Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 Yeah, I'd be cool continuing this discussion in the Swamp section (especially since it'd give me a reason to go in there -- I actually have never been there). We really have kind of gone off track. Or we could just start up a new thread on the Vong in general in the Swamp section. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toms Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 Originally posted by Solo4114 One thing I'm impressed with, though are the plethora of pop culture references in this thread. Harry Potter AND Bruce Lee all in one thread! LOL don't forget sesame street! At least it is about SW and gameplay factors, if you move it to the swap it will just get lost among all the threads about the Matrix and all the other rubbish.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solo4114 Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 Good catch. Yeah, it's been about gameplay and such so far, but personally, I don't mind debating the pros and cons of the NJO in general and not tied to gameplay concerns. I'd be curious to hear if anyone can offer ideas on how an opponent like the Vong could be used in a game and in such a way as to be true to what I've heard about the NJO books. (Both in terms of powers/abilities and in terms of numbers.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaruGlory89 Posted July 19, 2003 Author Share Posted July 19, 2003 Oops ... very sorry, if I had re-read the thread I would have see that it was Anakin1607 that supported the NJO. I *assumed* that it was you since you started the thread, but now I see differently. Okay...anyway, anyone can make a mistake, right? Whoever was the one who started this lousy idea of Vongs anyways? I liked the idea of New Republic and Remnant fighting but Vong makes Star Wars feel some some cheap scii-fi junk, not the high quality stuff that Lucas came up with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HertogJan Posted July 19, 2003 Share Posted July 19, 2003 Well the Vong may be a pretty crappy idea, but to be honest, was the Star Wars story really that good?? I mean, it doesn't really have depth or anything... Sure I like the movies, but to say they have depth, and interesting plot changes?? No... not really... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted July 20, 2003 Share Posted July 20, 2003 Originally posted by HertogJan Well the Vong may be a pretty crappy idea, but to be honest, was the Star Wars story really that good?? I mean, it doesn't really have depth or anything... Sure I like the movies, but to say they have depth, and interesting plot changes?? No... not really... To me, that is not the issue. I don't like the Vong because personally I don't think Star Trek concepts fit into the fantasy aspects of Star Wars. That's a matter of opinion, I suppose, but I guess I feel that the Star Wars tales did not need such a radical departure from the traditional feel to be entertaining. The galaxy is a huge place, and there could be many great stories that don't necessarily hold the fate of the galaxy in the balance. Grand scale doesn't automatically make a good story, and small scale doesn't necessarily make a bad one. To many, the NJO just doesn't line up with their view of what a Star Wars is all about. If JA had all this bio-technology and gruesome aliens, many players would be wondering why they are battling some Borg or Aliens rip-off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HertogJan Posted July 20, 2003 Share Posted July 20, 2003 Yeah good point From what I've heard, the Vong don't really fit in the Star Wars that we know until know... But does Jar Jar fit in??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toms Posted July 22, 2003 Share Posted July 22, 2003 for a similar effect you could use Ysalimari. In the Thrawn books (only good EU books that i have read) they used Ysalimari in pretty creative ways... troopers with Ysalimari on frames/backpacks to hem in the jedi, Ysalimari traps with them hidden behind panels in walls and so on. I always thought it would be a nice way to add some variety to the SP gameplay (and give a point to the weapons) if some of the people you faced were immune to the force... Actually, it would be nice if they maybe set a whole level on that planet with all the Ysalimari... so you actually had a level where you had to use guns. Would add a bit of variation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txa1265 Posted July 22, 2003 Share Posted July 22, 2003 Originally posted by toms Actually, it would be nice if they maybe set a whole level on that planet with all the Ysalimari... so you actually had a level where you had to use guns. Would add a bit of variation. Kind of the opposite of the end part of MotS where nothing works BUT you saber? BTW - I think that the Gungans DO fit in to the SW universe. Jar Jar was over the top, but part of this was the demonstration that all creatures matter, that the living force is full of 'pathetic lifeforms', a lesson QuiGon wanted ObiWan to learn - and to trust in the force. I like TPM, but still consider it the weakest of the 5, somewhat worse than the original (at the time in 1977 I was dazzled, I admit, but on repeated viewings ...). Regarding the stories and newer films, imagine telling the Moses story from the Egyptian point of view. It is much more interesting to talk about a bunch of rebels and renegades, escaping overewhelming odds, than a dyign political system in decay and turmoil. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted July 22, 2003 Share Posted July 22, 2003 Originally posted by toms Actually, it would be nice if they maybe set a whole level on that planet with all the Ysalimari... so you actually had a level where you had to use guns. Would add a bit of variation. Personally, I prefer not to have levels that force me to play a certain way. The "stealth" level in JO kind of bugged me. I'd rather it be left up to me how I want to play. But I don't mind having levels where playing a certain way has advantages over another. Like in the stealth level, I'd rather that using stealth was an easier way to complete the level, but if you wanted to chop your way through, you could. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txa1265 Posted July 22, 2003 Share Posted July 22, 2003 Originally posted by Prime But I don't mind having levels where playing a certain way has advantages over another. Like in the stealth level, I'd rather that using stealth was an easier way to complete the level, but if you wanted to chop your way through, you could. In which case ... you could have to choose Ysalimari valley, or the jump puzzle jungle ... or the land of 1000 stormtroopers. Something for everyone ... BTW - I agree. I do hope I can exercise some stealth in JA just because I want to. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solo4114 Posted July 22, 2003 Share Posted July 22, 2003 Yes, but it'd be ideal if we didn't automatically FAIL a mission because event X happend. I absolutely hate missions like that. Now, I can sort of understand it if it's like, Lando or Jan dying (though even then, there are workarounds for this in design), but personally, I think every mission should be beatable, even if the ideal path is denied to you. Did your droid die and you can't open door X now? Well, guess you'll have to battle through waves of (insert nasty bad guy here) to get to the exit... Did Jan/Lando/Luke/Whoever get too beat up by the enemies because you weren't covering them? Well, they're probably gonna ditch you and run away, leaving you to deal with all those badguys yourself... Did the Imperials discover your presence in the super-secret development labs of ultra-weapon Z? Now you're well and truly screwed. The entire BASE is going to come down on your head. Good luck! You're gonna need it... ....BUT, the mission won't automatically END when any of these things happen. Yes, the ideal path is gone now, and what's left is an EXTREMELY difficult path, but hey, if that's how you want to play, knock yourself out. That's the style of gameplay I like. I hate that "You have been discovered. MISSION FAILURE" junk. To me it speaks of level design that was far too linear. I like options when I play. Yes, it's best if you can be stealthy, keep the droid or your NPC friends alive, or what have you, but there's more than one way to skin a cat, if you'll pardon the phrase. Being forced to beat a mission in a particular fashion just irritates me. Yes, I realize it's the designer's game, but it's MY fun and MY time when I play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reprehence Posted July 23, 2003 Share Posted July 23, 2003 I don't mind stealth areas - but I didn't and don't like the idea of a stealth level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boinga1 Posted July 23, 2003 Share Posted July 23, 2003 If there is a stealth level, I hope that there is a "fight your way through the entire base" option like Solo1441 or Solo 4114 (I forgot the numbers) said. That'd be pretty cool, especially when you won. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toms Posted July 23, 2003 Share Posted July 23, 2003 yeah... i hated that force stealth level too... and i hate levels that automatically fail you when you could obviously attempt to continue. I'd have been happier if maybe upon being detected that stealth level just started spawning infinite amounts of troopers... making it likely you would die, but not definate. Ok, so maybe a whole level being forced to use weapons might be a bad idea (god knows those opening levels in JO sucked!), but in theory if the weapons were decent then it should be fun... However, image if you walked into a room and came face to face with a bunch of stormtroopers... "hah, more prey!" you think.... then the door shuts behind you and these pannels open in the walls to reveal Ysalimari cages behind force fields... you leap foreward to attack, pulling their weapons from their hands... only you don't leap very high and their weapons stay where they are.... "oh crap!" you think... that would definately mix things up a bit... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Reaper Posted July 26, 2003 Share Posted July 26, 2003 ... and then 3 mandalorians break trough the walls and kill everyone in the room within 2 seconds... . . . I think most people would not know WTF is going on... "so there are lizards in cages built into the wall... who cares.. just shoot those friggin guys who aim like ****" but it would be cool, seeing hunters and such walking around with a ysalam... sylam... Salami on their shoulder... hmm... these Salami creatures could make the game more interesting, cuz ya can't use the force so you'll have to be stealthy or you just shoot them all.... or I dunno.... I don't think, Yuuhzan Vong will make an appearance at all, to cliche, timeline is incorrect .. they are just as likely to show up in the game like a Mandalorian army ... love the idea of 100 stormtroopers showing up if you screw up in that stealth level.. but it would take alot of fps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HertogJan Posted July 26, 2003 Share Posted July 26, 2003 Originally posted by Dark Reaper ... love the idea of 100 stormtroopers showing up if you screw up in that stealth level.. but it would take alot of fps My machine eats FPS for breakfast, HA! Oh wait... er... well I mean I think my machine can handle it It would be great if lvl 3 pull was only given in the final battle, when 100s of stormies march towards you and you have to pull and deflect and slash for your life Something like the Geonosis (sp?) battle in EPII, massive fights would be great Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted July 28, 2003 Share Posted July 28, 2003 Okay, now I haven't read the NJO books, so maybe I don't know what I'm talking about, but I keep getting fed the idea (and doing some background checking seems to confirm this) that the Vong are basically an "anti-technology" society that is somehow genetically "immune" to the Force (which makes little sense, unless they actively use the force to block other force users, since even in the SW galaxy inanimate objects can certainly be force controlled). They use uber "bio-tech" to somehow duplicate the functions of "inorganic" technology, like having ships made out of rocks and armor made out of crab shells and stuff like that. Well I would theorize first that the Vong would be fairly easy to dispatch. All the force immunity in the world won't protect them from me force throwing a large object at them (since they don't have magic kinetic energy shields), and a lightsaber will cut biological tissue like a hot knife through butter. Even better, I don't have to get close, I can use my trusty rocket launcher. I hear the Vong can "open small black holes" in front of their ships to absorb projectiles. But can they do that with their foot soldiers? Some fragmentation grenades or anti-personel mines should provide the necessary depris to penetrate their non-metallic armor. A flame thrower would cook a Vong trooper in his crab armor and get him ready for the cook-out. ; ) Then there's biological weapons. Some nerve gas or chemical corrosives should do the trick. Biologicals are quite easily susceptable to that sort of thing (unlike say Stormtroopers in sealed armor). Now if we are only talking in terms of confirmed JA/JK2 weapons, then I would guess the Flechette would be an effective anti-Vong weapon (hot metal flak and explosives), as would the Merr-Sonn, Thermal Detonators, etc. I doubt they can absorb the energy from ordinary blasters, so those should be pretty good, but if not, the explosives (rockets, trip mines, det packs, td's) should suffice. Vong amphistaffs are supposedly immune to lightsabers, so we won't count those (then again, you just hit them in a non-amphistaff protected area right? and if they lack Jedi reflexes, how can they block every hit... especially from dual lightsabers?), and being immune to the Force might make lighting and Grip or Push not very useful. Then again, do they dampen out the force like a Ysalamari? Because you could just pull away their weapons, and then killing them would be fairly easy (and if not, you could always keep them away and prevent them doing any damage to you.. a Jedi with Speed could run circles around them all day). Then in Single Player, there's always the option of the "Agent Smith Punching Bag" routine with Speed+Fists. Unless the programmers would beef them up to supposed "uber levels" for challenge sake, I think the Vong are toast. They'll fall as thick and fast (if not faster) than Jabba's guards did to Luke's one-man assault in ROTJ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted July 28, 2003 Share Posted July 28, 2003 People have complained about JKII not being 'star-warsy' enough. The whole NJO reeks of Star Trek to me - this whole race of near indestructible anti-Borg (no-tech vs. all-tech) taking over the galaxy. Sure I've not followed it to its' conclusion - I couldn't take it any more. Yes, when I first heard about the Vong, I immediately thought "Species 8472 from Star Trek!" ; p In regard to the Force use against them, I guess with regards to certain powers... Grip: if grip won't choke them, just crush their collar around their throat for the same result. And we have seen Jedi push large boulders to kill enemies in JA videos (muahahha). I still think that being immune to the force is nonesense. The Force isn't dependent on the entity being biological (which is why they can toss big hunks of metal around with the Force). If anything, the Jedi can focus on their armor or their clothes or something. If the BS explanation is that the Force "energy field" doesn't "exist" in THEIR galaxy, it still won't matter, because once they enter the SW galaxy, they become surrounded by the Force, and thus able to be affected by it (just like the other inanimate objects in the SW galaxy). Ysalamari at least make more sense (use the force to block the Force). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shotokan Posted July 28, 2003 Share Posted July 28, 2003 I still think it the Vong won't be in JA. It'd still be cool though... I'd definitely jump at the chance to fight one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted July 28, 2003 Share Posted July 28, 2003 Originally posted by Shotokan I still think it the Vong won't be in JA. It'd still be cool though... I'd definitely jump at the chance to fight one of them. Then I'd scream out into the night, "We come on a mission of exploration. Set phasers on kill! Scottie, prepare to beam me out of this Elite Force game and over to Jedi Academy!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shotokan Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 LoL. Funny funny... Weird too.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaruGlory89 Posted July 30, 2003 Author Share Posted July 30, 2003 Please don't flame in this thread. Well the Vong may be a pretty crappy idea, but to be honest, was the Star Wars story really that good?? I mean, it doesn't really have depth or anything... Well, maybe, but the classics ain't that bad, ya know... But does Jar Jar fit in??? Of course not, but Jar Jar fits in more than the Vongs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txa1265 Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 Originally posted by HaruGlory89 Please don't flame in this thread. Well, maybe, but the classics ain't that bad, ya know... Of course not, but Jar Jar fits in more than the Vongs. Star Wars doesn't have the literary depth of LOTR, but it is a decent story arc ... and the prequel trilogy is also pretty good, in some ways having more depth than the OT - it is just not so much fun to tell the story of the decline and fall of a rotting establishment from the good guys' perspective ... As for Jar Jar, he is a prime example of the appreciation of living things by Qui-Gon in the 'living force', that all things contribute, and that he could sense his importance through the force. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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