Blademaster_109 Posted July 16, 2003 Share Posted July 16, 2003 So how exactly in Ja will we level up our force powers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Fisher Posted July 16, 2003 Share Posted July 16, 2003 Maybe just going through levels, like in JO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emon Posted July 16, 2003 Share Posted July 16, 2003 You can pick them if I remember correctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HertogJan Posted July 16, 2003 Share Posted July 16, 2003 Yeah you can pick them It's more like the JK system this time, and the more levels you play (you don't have to play all of them), the more forcepowers you can train. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txa1265 Posted July 16, 2003 Share Posted July 16, 2003 Originally posted by Blademaster_109 So how exactly in Ja will we level up our force powers. [frustration on] Given that there are two open threads at THE VERY TOP OF THE LIST about force powers, WHY OH WHY do you feel the need to open YET ANOTHER force power thread, and YET AGAIN make a thread with an absolutely f-ing meaningless title ... haven't you been asked again and again to use REAL titles and to not start threads that duplicate existing ones already heavily in play?!?!?!?!?! [/end frustration] So my answer to your question ... we haven't seen definitively, but it seems like a hybrid between JK and JO - you use the missions to 'train' a force power, then you are supposed to have choices about powers as you progress. Sounds interesting. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BawBag™ Posted July 16, 2003 Share Posted July 16, 2003 The JK system was far superior in terms of replayability. I mean, for every secret that you found you could amend your powers as a reward, but after once playing through JKII you knew what powers were going to advance. But in academy they could have considered things like kills, accuracy etc. along with secrets discovered to boost your knowledge of the force, it would give people an extra incentive to play through a few times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solo4114 Posted July 16, 2003 Share Posted July 16, 2003 Actually, I always thought it'd be better if you rewarded not just finding secrets, but playing a particular role once you have the ability to choose light or dark side. Assuming you're a student at the academy, you're presumably going to be picking light side, so saving innocents, resolving things without violence, etc. would be rewarded, but would take a while for you to advance (and would make you REALLY powerful once you got up to a particular level). Alternatively, if you chose to resolve things through an exercise of raw power, if you chose killing everyone in the level, and if you don't mind killing a few innocents on the way, then you'll gain darkside levels quickly, but will plateau out after a certain point. That way you'd be rewarded not just for doing things like finding secrets, but for playing true to a particular side of the force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FiNLuX Posted July 16, 2003 Share Posted July 16, 2003 So if i get this right. All that skills you get in SinglePlayer can you use in MultiPlayer or? is it like JK2 multiplayer that you choose what powers you want to have? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agen Posted July 16, 2003 Share Posted July 16, 2003 Originally posted by txa1265 [frustration on] Given that there are two open threads at THE VERY TOP OF THE LIST about force powers, WHY OH WHY do you feel the need to open YET ANOTHER force power thread, and YET AGAIN make a thread with an absolutely f-ing meaningless title ... haven't you been asked again and again to use REAL titles and to not start threads that duplicate existing ones already heavily in play?!?!?!?!?! [/end frustration] So my answer to your question ... we haven't seen definitively, but it seems like a hybrid between JK and JO - you use the missions to 'train' a force power, then you are supposed to have choices about powers as you progress. Sounds interesting. Mike There's not really much point in me typing anything because he just said it all IMO the jk system was far better than jk2's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blademaster_109 Posted July 16, 2003 Author Share Posted July 16, 2003 I hope you get to use ur character force powers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agen Posted July 16, 2003 Share Posted July 16, 2003 Nope, you just collect force powers but never use them through the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txa1265 Posted July 16, 2003 Share Posted July 16, 2003 Originally posted by >BawBag< The JK system was far superior in terms of replayability. I mean, for every secret that you found you could amend your powers as a reward, but after once playing through JKII you knew what powers were going to advance. But in academy they could have considered things like kills, accuracy etc. along with secrets discovered to boost your knowledge of the force, it would give people an extra incentive to play through a few times. Only if you found *every secret* did you get any reward ... how frustrating! I agree that it made it interesting to pick and choose your strengths. The problem was that the powers themselves were less useful. JK often made me recall the line 'ancient weapons and hokey religions are no match for a blaster at your side ...' I hope they find a nice balance with JA. Like you (and others) said - make experience count for something, allow you to 'train up', and so on. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txa1265 Posted July 16, 2003 Share Posted July 16, 2003 Originally posted by Agen_Terminator IMO the jk system was far better than jk2's I'm just hoping that DeusEx2 and JA signal the return to the open-ness of DeusEx1 and JK1 ... the whole 'Q3-Engine Era' has seemed to be about games that are very graphically nice and realistic with great sound and controls, but also shorter, more linear, less interactive than the previous era ... and they offered the same level of character creation and interaction with the characters' progression (i.e. none). JO stands out because at least your character *does* progress, you just have no say over what that progression looks like. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txa1265 Posted July 16, 2003 Share Posted July 16, 2003 Originally posted by Blademaster_109 I hope you get to use ur character force powers. By this do you mean that when you go from [sP] to [MP], you transfer not just the character but also your powers? That would be a problem for those who don't play [sP][ at all, or play alongside [MP], don't you think? Not that its' a bad thought, though ... Here's an interesting idea - character creation for [MP] with a force power setup that 'gracefully scales' to the point allocation of a server. In other words, you would go into a 'Record Force Allocation Priority' mode, then click the powers and levels in the order you would like them added, so that when you hit a server with 66 points rather than 72 (e.g.), your setup knows that level 3 jump will be lost. What do you think? Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solo4114 Posted July 16, 2003 Share Posted July 16, 2003 Originally posted by txa1265 I'm just hoping that DeusEx2 and JA signal the return to the open-ness of DeusEx1 and JK1 ... the whole 'Q3-Engine Era' has seemed to be about games that are very graphically nice and realistic with great sound and controls, but also shorter, more linear, less interactive than the previous era ... and they offered the same level of character creation and interaction with the characters' progression (i.e. none). JO stands out because at least your character *does* progress, you just have no say over what that progression looks like. Mike That's a common failure in games and movies today: style over substance. All flashy graphics and visuals, big cool-looking explosions, but nothing terribly compelling about it and/or a cursory story. I can rattle off plenty of films that have come out in recent years which were big on spectacle and VERY short on plot/character development. I think the same thing has been seen (albeit in a slightly different way) in the gaming industry. It's always been true that Id Software's own games have laughable "storylines" and are more about killing things in a particular environment (although Q2 was a nice departure to a degree). Q3 is a perfect example. Single player was basically just multiplayer with bots. Frankly, I never really liked Q3 as a game, but as an engine, it let you do some cool things. However, it always seemed to be more focused on multiplayer than on single player. You don't need a story or writers or any of that stuff for multiplayer. You just point and shoot and hope that the explosion looks pretty. For a while, I think we've seen a number of games that had either no story or a very linear, rides-on-rails kind of story. Even some of Ravens own games have been like this. Soldier of Fortune seemed less about the story itself (although there was a story present) and more about killing people VERY graphically in a bunch of different environments. Elite Force had a good story, actually, but was still very linear. Games like the MOHAA series for the PC are other examples of this trend. They were much more about setting and set pieces of action than about a compelling story. IE: most people remember the "Saving Pvt. Ryan" level of MOHAA (Omaha Beach), but as a part of a story itself, it didn't really do anything. It was just a cool place to have a level. There was also very little about the MOHAA games that was dynamic. I think what we're seeing in games, or at least what we can HOPE to see in games, is a new style of game. Part of the problem with the abovementioned games is their focus and the mindset that went into designing them. On the one hand, you have the multiplayer-focused games like Q3 and UT. These games decided to focus almost exclusively on what made for good multiplayer action, and they did a terrific job, depending on your tastes (I was always more of a UT fan, myself). Games like MOHAA, Elite Force, Soldier of Fortune, RTCW, and even JO were wedded to an older paradigm for single player games, where the player plays through a set series of levels. As the player advances, the challenges become more difficult, but the player is given bigger and tougher tools to deal with the challenges. That's it! That's your format. Whether it's getting to the level where you get the rocket launcher, or getting to the level where you're given access to blue stance for sabre fighting, it's all fundamentally the same thing: beat a level, get a new toy. And you HAVE to do it sequentially. Along the way, there have been other games that stretched the boundaries like Deus Ex or System Shock 2. System Shock 2 I played (I never played Deus Ex), and I have to say that while it was cool, it was also not nearly as visually stimulating as the other games I mentioned. I'm hoping that with JA, we'll start to see a new trend in games where interactivity with the environment, interactivity with your character, and a break from the linear method of playing from level to level to level (talk about Super Mario Bros. comparisons...). I'm sure there will still be plenty of linear-focused FPS games that stick to the format that goes as far back as Wolfenstein 3D (the game that started it all), but I'm very much looking forward to a change of pace. It'd also be nice to see a game where if you pick a particular level, you DON'T get to pick a different level (IE: I pick the mission to Tatooine, which means that the other two missios I could've picked at that stage are opted out). This would require games to be, in a sense, three times as long, though, since you wouldn't want the single player campaign to be over in four missions. But with DVD drives on the rise, why the hell not? Sure it'd take longer in development, but the product would be worth it, I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blademaster_109 Posted July 16, 2003 Author Share Posted July 16, 2003 Originally posted by txa1265 By this do you mean that when you go from [sP] to [MP], you transfer not just the character but also your powers? That would be a problem for those who don't play [sP][ at all, or play alongside [MP], don't you think? Not that its' a bad thought, though ... Here's an interesting idea - character creation for [MP] with a force power setup that 'gracefully scales' to the point allocation of a server. In other words, you would go into a 'Record Force Allocation Priority' mode, then click the powers and levels in the order you would like them added, so that when you hit a server with 66 points rather than 72 (e.g.), your setup knows that level 3 jump will be lost. What do you think? Mike Good point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toms Posted July 16, 2003 Share Posted July 16, 2003 Originally posted by txa1265 Only if you found *every secret* did you get any reward ... how frustrating! I agree that it made it interesting to pick and choose your strengths. The problem was that the powers themselves were less useful. JK often made me recall the line 'ancient weapons and hokey religions are no match for a blaster at your side ...' I hope they find a nice balance with JA. Like you (and others) said - make experience count for something, allow you to 'train up', and so on. Mike It was a bit annoying when there was ONE secret you couldn't find.... but i enjoyed exploring those levels anyway. The thing about the force powers, lightsaber and weapons in JK1 was that they were all equally useful... unlike JO where the saber and force powers were invincible and made the weapons pointless. ( i had a rocket launcher for about 2 levels before i even noticed i had gained one. i then used it a whole TWO TIMES in the SP game. ) Almost any level in JK1 could be played with the saber, with force powers, with weapons or with any mix of the above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solo4114 Posted July 16, 2003 Share Posted July 16, 2003 Yeah, JO definitely subscribed to the same style of game design with ever increasing guns/powers the higher your levels go. And yes, when you were finally adept in the force, you didn't need the guns at all (which I thought was kind of cool). Be that as it may, it was still new level, new toys. JK at least let you customize things to a degree, although it also only let you get certain powers at a certain point in the game if memory serves. I suspect JA will operate similarly, although you may pick different powers/weapon loadouts for different missions at the same level. IE: for the next three missions, which you can do in any order you want, you have the option of choosing new levels in Force Push, Force Lightning, or Mind Trick. You can only pick two new levels, though, and you won't actually need any of the powers to complete the levels, although they'll really help and some powers will help more on certain missions than others. Alternatively, you could be given a set number of assignable stars or a set amount of training sessions that you can undertake before going on the mission, where you'll be able to pick from all of the force powers useable in the game. As the game progresses, you simply undertake more training sessions and can customize your character as you see fit, though obviously certain powers are recommended for certain missions (but you wouldn't be limited in your choices). I think either system would work quite well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emon Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 Choosing your own Force powers means the level designers can't make puzzles that rely soley on Force powers, which means there must be alternate solutions, which means there is more replayability per level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txa1265 Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 Originally posted by Emon Choosing your own Force powers means the level designers can't make puzzles that rely soley on Force powers, which means there must be alternate solutions, which means there is more replayability per level. That was a great thing in Deus Ex and JK. In JK they restricted your possibilities, but you could always choose to put no stars on things. So they couldn't assume you had anything. However, I assume you'll get your 'primary' force powers (push, pull, jump, speed) early on and there will be some assumption of having them. To me that is actually a good thing - don't assume I'll have level 3 anything, or grip/lightning/whatever, but jump 1 or 2 and some level of speed should be a fair assumption for level design. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HertogJan Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 Originally posted by txa1265 That was a great thing in Deus Ex and JK. In JK they restricted your possibilities, but you could always choose to put no stars on things. So they couldn't assume you had anything. However, I assume you'll get your 'primary' force powers (push, pull, jump, speed) early on and there will be some assumption of having them. To me that is actually a good thing - don't assume I'll have level 3 anything, or grip/lightning/whatever, but jump 1 or 2 and some level of speed should be a fair assumption for level design. Mike I'm pretty they will requite you to have at leats lvl 2 jumping. I like BIG starwarzy levels, and you can't navigate around them without force jump!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blademaster_109 Posted July 18, 2003 Author Share Posted July 18, 2003 I also love forcejump Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reprehence Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 This would require games to be, in a sense, three times as long, though, since you wouldn't want the single player campaign to be over in four missions. But with DVD drives on the rise, why the hell not? Sure it'd take longer in development, but the product would be worth it, I think. You've hit on one of the big barriers in the games which is content creation. A lot of games have become short, and even the larger games don't take nearly as long to play as something like the original DOOM - even though the levels seem larger. One solution to this would be a subscription service with new levels every month - a more slowly unwrapping story that could take an entire year to play. Looking at the time it took to build JA vs. the cost of the game vs. even a small monthly subscription for a year, I believe a company could make it work. Releasing a game that's about as long as JA and then about 2 months later adding monthly content as time rolls along - you could build a pretty impressive game over time - provided you built an engine that could integrate the RPG aspects of the game into the levels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HertogJan Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 The point is, that developers can't work for free!! They have to get paid! So only very succesful games (or games from very rich developers, like EA) get continuous updates If there really would be such a game, it would require a monthly fee I'm sure Oh and how much do you think it costs Raven to license the QIII engine? Not as much as when the engine was brand new, but still, far from free of charge I think... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txa1265 Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 Originally posted by HertogJan The point is, that developers can't work for free!! They have to get paid! So only very succesful games (or games from very rich developers, like EA) get continuous updates If there really would be such a game, it would require a monthly fee I'm sure Oh and how much do you think it costs Raven to license the QIII engine? Not as much as when the engine was brand new, but still, far from free of charge I think... I'm sure that someone had run the business model for this at some point ... but I have no idea what it would look like. To set up a subscription you'd need to deliver content on a regular basis - say quarterly. You'd need to keep LucasArts plugged in, to get permission for everything. You'd need to employ a small team consisting of mappers, modelers, and so on, as well as allocated testing and QA resources. You'd need to come up with fresh ideas for a 'mission a quarter' or something - and that mission would have to be long enough (a couple of hours or so) to warrant the cost, but not so large that it is overly resource intensive (otherwise no profit). Not exactly an easy task ... Back on topic - one of my sons got the 'Star Wars Epic Duels' board game for Christmas, and it has 'special' cards for attack/defense which were about aim and power and movement and such ... and got me thinking. It would be interesting in JA to get the Deus Ex ability to enhance your aim and things like that. Imagine that finding all other secrets on a level opened a final secret area that contained a aim enhancer for a gun, or a fast charge mod for the disrupter or whatever ... and of course you'd still get the extra Force Star Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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