A serious review of MP problems (no flames please)

[the weiner dog!]

(data base error, delete the other thread I can't)

 

Ok before anyone chimes in with standard responses/flames I want to make a few things clear:

 

I'm going to take the glaring problems with JA MP and *specifically detail why it is a problem and I would appreciate only serious and *detailed feedback if you respond.

 

If I say X is a problem, please tell me how Y can solve it.

 

That basically means no generic "give it time" or "it's only been out two days" responses.

 

 

 

Multiplayer problems:

 

(This section deals with 1v1 play)

 

Weak sabers in saber only game types.

 

In games of saber only Full Force the saber is even more useless than in was in Jedi Outcast 1.04.

 

Everyone knows players in Jedi Outcast used various combos that revolved around the double tap kick and the combining of Force powers with those double tap kicks to compensate for the saber weakness.

 

 

Problem is with the total elimination of those kicks and the combos, the sabers being even *weaker now and the healing power of drain being just as potent as it was in Jedi Outcast, a player who does not wish to be killed will not be.

 

I guarantee any of you who are reading this that if you were to duel me full force right now I could drag a single round out for 12 hours by simply draining you.

 

You could not rely on high damage force based combos to end my "drain whoring" because they have been removed.

 

You could not use "specials" or "Katas" to kill me because none of them are instant killers and even if you do take me to say 20 hp, I'm going to have plenty of force in reserve and just drain it right back.

 

Not to mention I can drain you from the start of the match to even prevent you from using them a single time because they require such a huge portion of your force pool.

 

You can't “saber" me with normal swings because they do such low damage I can actually let you hit me twice, wait... then start draining it back.

 

 

So my question is, how do you kill me?

 

Now when I say "me" I don't mean some random player on a public server, I mean myself. A very skilled player who is not going engage you, waste a drop of force and who will just sit back and drain you to prove that you lack the ability to kill him.

 

 

Now you may say "I turn on absorb so he can't drain me then do a Kata".

 

Wrong.

 

You turn on absorb I'm going to stay out of range (back off/run away) and won't engage or get near until it turns off.

 

Solutions?

 

Setting the saber damage scale high (server side) of course right?

 

Well answer me this:

 

We all hated sabers in 1.04 right?

 

That saber scale option was there in 1.04, explain to me if that was "our solution" why only 1 out of 600 servers used it?

 

The bottom line is 99% of the JO/JA server admins are not like admins from games like Quake 3 or RTCW. If you don't put it in *base game play, chances are it's not going to ever get used.

 

This is not opinion, it is fact.

 

If I am wrong then please tell me why everyone complained about weak sabers in 1.04, had the cvar to make them better, but no one, and I mean virtually no one used that cvar?

 

 

High damage specials require force

 

Very bad idea.

 

Now I know the logic was “people won’t complain about spamming if no one can spam them” when this was done.

 

But like a lot of things, in reality it does not play out that way.

 

Here is why:

 

In Jedi Outcast if you were being drain whored you had basically 2 options:

 

Run like hell and hope you can get away to regen or go on the offensive and use rapid attacks like a kick+ red dfa combo or specials like the blue lunge to turn the tide and get a quick win.

 

Now look at Jedi Academy:

 

I am drain whoring you, I have your force pool down to 0.

 

I keep holding down the key and hit you with a drain blast every second to prevent you from regenerating.

 

 

You can’t use any specials or high damage moves because they all *require force.

 

You can’t use any defensive or offensive force powers because you have a 0 pool.

 

What can you do?

 

Swing a saber.

 

But wait, none of the basic swings cause serious damage and since I’m just holding down the key I’m going to heal it back just as fast as you cause it.

 

See the problem in this guys?

 

Those special moves were the one great “random factor” when people would drain whore you.

 

I know many of times I have drain whored opponents only to walk right into 1-2 back to back lunges and lose the match that I though I had in the bag.

 

Before (in Jedi Outcast) a player being drain whored had many options in his arsenal to stay in the fight,

 

But now, his only option is run and hope the guy can’t strafe jump as fast.

 

 

 

Full Force Saber only CTF

 

This game can be summed up in two basic statements:

 

If you cap (a term for the guy who gets the flag) you NEVER fight, you run and you run like hell.

 

 

If you defend, you need to kill in one single shot. The cappers (flag guy) are NOT going to stand there and fight you so what ever you use has to be an instant kill. Not to mention they will be using absorb and level 3 speed to make them immune from any force based attacks and will be impossible to kill unless you get them in one shot as they fly by at 90 miles per hour

 

 

In Jedi Outcast you had two basic options to kill a capper, the DFA (or rage+dfa) or kick them off of a ledge for an instant fall death.

 

Now look at Jedi Academy.

 

The only “high damage” moves are the Katas, but you are locked into a stationary position while you execute them so unless the capper has moth blood in his veins and mistakes you for a giant bug zapper he’s not going to walk into a guy twirling a saber.

 

 

The bottom line is the capper has no reason to stand there and “duke it out” because his job is to get back to his base as fast as possible and score.

 

You remove the instant hit kills with no kick+fall deaths, you weaken the specials and make them use force (no rage+dfa combos now) and this translates into a capper with an escort using team heal being totally unstoppable.

 

What was once before a fast paced game of CTF now turns into both sides grabbing the flag in the first 30 seconds and standing off for 19:30 and the match ends at 0/0 when the time hits.

 

 

Force grip not being able to stay active when it is out of the line of sight

 

This makes no sense at all, in theory maybe, but not in practice.

 

Look at level 2 grip.

 

Why is it useless?

 

Because you are directly in the guys line of sight and all he has to do is push/pull and it instantly breaks, you simply can’t ever use it on anything other than bots or NPC’s that do not have push/pull.

 

 

Grip at level 3 has become no different than level 2 now.

 

No person with even ½ a brain is going to just sit there being choked if he is being held directly in front of the gripper with the option to break it with a simple push/pull.

 

You say “spin the mouse around”?

 

Wrong.

 

You may think that is a viable strategy because it works on newbie’s, but it is incredibly easy to break for experienced players by simply looking down and exploiting the area of effect of force pull.

 

 

 

Ways to fix these problems

 

1.01 patch

 

-Up saber damages like we were being led to believe they would be when we were getting info on this game. Sure “technically” no one lied when they said sabers would be more lethal in some game types and weaker in others but every one of us thought that meant *high damage sabers in some game types, and *really high damage ones in others. I.e. stronger sabers than Jedi Outcast 1.04 had across the board.

 

-Get rid of force usage restrictions on basic special moves. If you want to keep them on the high damage Katas fine, but the basic specials like the lunge and the dfa need to be un nerfed to be of any use in a realistic situation.

 

-Kicking for all stances. This is one thing both “fan boys” and “competitive players” have all mentioned they wanted. If the debug melee command is server side only, like the damage scale command in Jedi Outcast 1.04, you know as well as I do it will never get used.

 

A simple way to fix this is give the other two stances the double tap kicks and keep the multi style kicks for the staff users.

 

As a side note, please test and refine the debug melee command if it is implemented because when used in single player it is obvious it is untested because of how erratic the results are (wall walking up a guys face when you try to kick him is a prefect example).

 

-remove the line of sight restriction for grip to actually make it a power worth putting points into again.

 

 

 

In closing I wanted to say thanks to all of the competitive guys from the various clans like =AX=, [div3rse], FK, rk //, guys like remij, +/< and others as well who have come here to respond to these threads.

 

I know it can be frustrating when you are trying to make a serious point about game play mechanics and you get responses like “well that’s gay cuz in episode 2 yoda used absorb and blah blah” but please try to keep the tempers in check guys.

 

Also as a final note I want to make it crystal clear to every single person here why this backlash is going on and who is responsible for it.

 

This is nothing like the “back stab” whining that went on in Jedi Outcast.

 

I really wish people were going “OMG These Katas are gay they keep spamming them and every one is getting killed!” because that would imply there is actually some serious depth and danger to be found in the game play.

 

The problem we (the competitive players) have is there is simply no “meat” on this games bones.

 

A few flashy eye candy moves that are ineffective in a realistic situation, the removal of high damage and complex combos and strategies basically makes this a “pick up and play for all ages” type of game that is so simplistic it’s dull and pointless to play at the moment for those people who crave a hardcore gaming experience.

 

As I have said before, if this were a true new game I would totally agree that we should just sit back and give it some time, but let’s not play dumb, this game is 90% Jedi Outcast with a new coat of paint.

 

You take what “did work” and remove it or weaken it, replace what was taken out with *ineffective moves that look pretty and slap a $50 price tag on it and yes, some people will be naive enough to believe it’s a whole new game with months and months of stuff to still be learned but those of us who play these games for the “game content” and not the “star wars content” are not going to be sold on that line of b.s.

[Rumor]

i couldn't have said it better myself.

 

please if you have no desire to play full force / saber only, DO NOT POST IN THIS THREAD.

[Losonos]

If you turn on the saber realism cvar you will get the sabers you desire. I just finished playing on a power duel server with it enabled and there were a lot of one shot kills that were not katas and just regular attacks. Single saber heavy stance is especially powerful in this mode.

 

Edit: g_saberDamageScale is the cvar.

[traj]

Well said Wiener Dog. I only have one little discrepancy.

 

In CTF games you said that the game would last 20 minutes and end at a stalemate. But actually it is MUCH worse than that.

 

CTF games cannot end in a tie. So basically, you could in theory be stuck on the same map for an infinite amount of time. But most likely what would happen is one FC would outlast another's boredom. One FC would disconnect and the other team would cap, and FINALLY we could see the next map. Sounds to me like alot of 52 minute 1-0 games.

 

The rest of the post was right on the money and I agree whole- heartedly with everything else you said.

[traj]

Originally posted by Losonos

If you turn on the saber realism cvar you will get the sabers you desire. I just finished playing on a power duel server with it enabled and there were a lot of one shot kills that were not katas and just regular attacks. Single saber heavy stance is especially powerful in this mode.

 

Edit: g_saberDamageScale is the cvar.

 

Did you read the post sir?

[the weiner dog!]

JA MP really reminds me of Jedi Outcast *single player.

 

Slow, simple, toned down and more for "star wars" fans than true players.

 

I'm not saying JA is "total crap" like a lot of people, I love the new maps, player models and think the single player game is a blast.

 

Problem is, the MP game play mechanics took all the "hard core" killing stuff from Jedi Outcast out but instead of replacing it with "new hard core" killing stuff they replaced it with ineffective flashy moves.

 

 

Everyone keeps saying "there is more to learn give it time" well look at it like this:

 

Everything that got brought over from the previous game is now ineffective due to the wide range of nerfing, so if there is one "super move/combo" to be found still, do you not see the problem with that?

 

Didn't everyone get all pissed off because "all people did in 1.02/03 was spam the same one move over and over"?

 

You bet they did and it pissed people off.

 

So if we know all the stuff we have found is ineffective (since about 85% of the game mechanics is JO recycled, there is not a lot to find) do you want to be back in the "one move wonder world" again?

 

This is why the multiple things that were nerfed need to be put back in, to give people options.

[Comm539]

well said. I agree 100%

Only thing i would say is that not all gametypes are happy with things like gripkick, pk etc. I just play ctf and ff duels, but other ppl have to be happy too. Why not reimplement them, but give the server the option whether to turn them on or not. This would let ctf servers keep them, but duel servers remove them.

[JaledDur]

I just think the solution is for all the good coders and people like wiener dog here to sit down and make a mod. I mean, Raven is great, I love them, but they aren't going to 'fix' anything, ok? Even if they do change the game, they wont be 'fixing' it -- lets face it they don't have the best track record here.

[Comm539]

This basically the same game...they could just keep them in. All the animations are there...you can kick a wall, so it can't be much coding to kick a person. The trouble with mods is they aren't official, so only a few clan servers will run them and not public s/o ctf servers.

[Pedro The Hutt]

To the entire drain rant, two syllables. ab-sorb ^.^ (and you can't hide for ever Luke.. eh.. weiner, you'll have to come out and fight like a man XD)

[Prime]

A good post the weiner dog! And unfortunately no really flamable, which is disappointing. j/k I do have a few comments with SO FF Duels in mind though...

 

Originally posted by the weiner dog!

That saber scale option was there in 1.04, explain to me if that was "our solution" why only 1 out of 600 servers used it?

 

The bottom line is 99% of the JO/JA server admins are not like admins from games like Quake 3 or RTCW. If you don't put it in *base game play, chances are it's not going to ever get used.

 

This is not opinion, it is fact.

 

If I am wrong then please tell me why everyone complained about weak sabers in 1.04, had the cvar to make them better, but no one, and I mean virtually no one used that cvar?

I agree that the cvar was not used nearly enough, and likely would have improved the situation quite a bit.

 

I seems that asking admin to alter this cvar is not going to do the trick. However, it seemed just about every server had an admin mod of some sort. Perhaps the altering of this cvar, and perhaps some others that would introduce better gameplay could be bundled up in a little mod and posted on the various file sites. This would essentailly be what Raven would do with a patch (more or less). It might possibly lead to a bit wider distribution of the cvar alterations. I guess what I'm saying is make it as easy as possible for admins to "install". If it is something they could just download and put in a directory, they might be more likely to do it, especially if it dramatically improves things. I doubt that would really work, I'm just thinking out loud...

 

Originally posted by the weiner dog!

stronger sabers than Jedi Outcast 1.04 had across the board.

Keep in mind that many people complained in JO that duels in the duel gametype did not go on long enough. Raven developers have stated that trying to make changes to saber damage that cover all gametypes introduced more problems than it solved. A more gametype-specific solution is probably necessary.

 

Originally posted by the weiner dog!

-Get rid of force usage restrictions on basic special moves. If you want to keep them on the high damage Katas fine, but the basic specials like the lunge and the dfa need to be un nerfed to be of any use in a realistic situation.

This makes sense.

 

Originally posted by the weiner dog!

-Kicking for all stances. This is one thing both ?fan boys? and ?competitive players? have all mentioned they wanted. If the debug melee command is server side only, like the damage scale command in Jedi Outcast 1.04, you know as well as I do it will never get used.

I admit that I never really liked kicking in JO, mainly because it took away the gameplay from the lightsaber in SO games, and it was too effective for what it represented (kicking someone). Now, having a kick like the saberstaff might be good, but personally I would not want it have all the same characteristics as the kick in JO. Specifically, the damage direct to health, the ability to still defend yourself using the saber, and the relatively high damage. Having the kick do a bit of damage and potentially knock someone down would be useful regardless. I'd rather see a solution involving making the lightsaber more effective.

 

Originally posted by the weiner dog!

A few flashy eye candy moves that are ineffective in a realistic situation, the removal of high damage and complex combos and strategies basically makes this a ?pick up and play for all ages? type of game that is so simplistic it?s dull and pointless to play at the moment for those people who crave a hardcore gaming experience.

To be fair to Raven, rightly or wrongly the "pick up and play" type of game is exactly what they tried to make. They are trying to make a game for the widest range of customers, and the fact is that most customers are casual gamers. Making the game too complex or difficult to pick up might alienate a large number of customers. So it is not that Raven failed in what they were trying to do. They just didn't make a game that appealed to every group of players. I'm not trying to defend Raven here, I'm just saying that thay made a decision about what game they wanted to make and tried to cater to as many groups as possible. And it is not like they completely ignored competative gamers, as they have mad the game very customizable. I agree that making certain settings widespread is not easy, but Raven can only do so much. It might be up to the community now to get things the way we want them. After JO, I suspect Raven will be very hesitant to release a gameplay altering patch that caters to one group of players.

 

My 2 cents...

[Tesla]

more for "star wars" fans

 

Well, the name Star Wars sort of imploys the fact that it was made more for fans of Star Wars

 

Ah, yet more rambling about the same thing over and over, look we've had threads before about how you so called "experienced players" hate this and hate that, well take the game back then and wait until Halo or Half Life 2 are released, im sure they will satisfy you more.

 

And stop with the slagging off about how Raven have made "this crap" or "sabers suck worse than 1.04", this is Jedi Academy not Outcast, now if you prefer Outcasts MP then play that, and stop waisting my time with useless threads like this.

[SuperNub]

Ya know, I would've been completely happy had they just simply re-released JO with a main menu option of choosing 1.03 or 1.04. And implemented the improved graphics, new maps and gameplay options.

 

The only problems needed to be fixed in 1.03 to me were the freezing glitches. As in if you knock someone down right after doing a blue lunge you were immobile for a few moments. And also if you knocked someone down amidst a backstab they are frozen for a couple seconds right after getting up. I never had a problem with the pivating backstab, it added more of a challenge on defending the move and when to use it to me. It also puts rage and protect to full usage.

 

S/O ctf was a blast in 1.03. Forced reality server anyone? Simply having three guys standing on the flag backstabbing constantly then jumping in at the perfect moment to knock them away or backstab them as well to grab the flag was a good challenge.

 

1.04 seemed fine to me as well, I had no problem using melee over saber attacks when needed. They were equally entertaining to myself. I think 1.04 lacked the aerial blue lunge, otherwise it was just fine and dandy.

 

I know there is the option of using a program called patch commander, but it was too buggy in it's final release to be used. The simple option of choosing between patches in the main menu sounds great to me, as well as the option to disable kicks for those who couldn't stand it as well.

 

This would obviously not then be a completely new game, but its not like JO had any expansion packs anyways, this would've been perfect for one and I wouldn't even bother with JKA.

[Side]

Eh...dont reply then telsa...

and weiner man ur text made me hard

[Side]

oh yea...the only way u could ACTUALY kill a FC's would be mind trick+kata...but any skilled Capper could easily hear mind trick and activate seing...beside that combo....pathetic

[g//anarki]

Originally posted by Tesla

Well, the name Star Wars sort of imploys the fact that it was made more for fans of Star Wars

 

Ah, yet more rambling about the same thing over and over, look we've had threads before about how you so called "experienced players" hate this and hate that, well take the game back then and wait until Halo or Half Life 2 are released, im sure they will satisfy you more.

 

And stop with the slagging off about how Raven have made "this crap" or "sabers suck worse than 1.04", this is Jedi Academy not Outcast, now if you prefer Outcasts MP then play that, and stop waisting my time with useless threads like this.

 

You, not being a competitive gamer have no business to post here. This thread was for competive gamers to post what they want improved in JA, not to flame or tell him that his thread is useless and to play another game.

 

I agree with everything that weiner dog has said. He seems to be speaking for every competitive ff/so player out there. I'm especially angry that the kicking is disabled and Raven hasn't come up with any better ideas for katas besides some flashy saber movements that make you immobile for the whole move. Don't even get me started about the crappy rolling... Strafing to the right is a lot faster than this crappy nerfed roll.

[Rumor]

Originally posted by Pedro The Hutt

To the entire drain rant, two syllables. ab-sorb ^.^ (and you can't hide for ever Luke.. eh.. weiner, you'll have to come out and fight like a man XD)

 

you obviously never played anybody that was, for lack of a better word, one of the elites.

[Rumor]

Originally posted by g//plaZma

You, not being a competitive gamer have no business to post here. This thread was for competive gamers to post what they want improved in JA, not to flame or tell him that his thread is useless and to play another game.

 

I agree with everything that weiner dog has said. He seems to be speaking for every competitive ff/so player out there. I'm especially angry that the kicking is disabled and Raven hasn't come up with any better ideas for katas besides some flashy saber movements that make you immobile for the whole move. Don't even get me started about the crappy rolling... Strafing to the right is a lot faster than this crappy nerfed roll.

[Side]

oh yea ... rage is totaly useless in saber only(in gametype with saber only)

[Tesla]

Eh...dont reply then telsa...

I have the free right to post in any thread that i wish to,thank you very much.

 

Oh and it's Tesla.

 

And can i not voice my opinion on a thread ?

[Side]

Originally posted by Tesla

And stop with the slagging off about how Raven have made "this crap" or "sabers suck worse than 1.04", this is Jedi Academy not Outcast, now if you prefer Outcasts MP then play that, and stop waisting my time with useless threads like this.

 

You said it urself,ur wasting ur time

[Tesla]

Just what i personally felt myself, no harm done to others.

[Rumor]

if i remember correctly, weiner asked for people who actually play the gametype(s) to reply with ways to fix it/views.

 

you are not one of them. we know what everyone else thinks, we've had it shoved down our throats for a year and a half. we're voicing our opinion on how gameplay could be made better in what we play. the discussion doesn't concern you and you haven't added anything to it, so please don't reply as its a waste of your time.

[{DHU}Screed]

and stop waisting my time with useless threads like this.

 

No one held a gun to your head and said READ THIS THREAD OR YOUR BRAINS ARE ONE WITH THE WALL! Did they?

 

 

 

I agree 100% with this thread, basically all the gripes I have with Academy have been stated above.

[{DHU}Screed]

oh yea...the only way u could ACTUALY kill a FC's would be mind trick+kata...but any skilled Capper could easily hear mind trick and activate seing...beside that combo....pathetic

 

Even then, what flag carrier with half a brain would stay still long enough where you could Kata them?!