Prime Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 Originally posted by Ardent Saying they'd be wrong to wait any longer than they have to. Dismissed. Saying maybe they think they don't have to at all because they don't think there is a substantial problem. Perhaps they are not waiting at all. Dismissed. LOL. Originally posted by Ardent I, AS THE CONSUMER, am exactly the right person to determine what is and isn't a bug for me. You can decide what you think is a bug, but of course Raven is the only one that really knows. A bug is simply code that does something that they did not intend it to do. As far as we know, Raven feels that the code is doing what they want (apart from a few minor issues). Whether you like what is does is up to you. But it is unlikely that people are going to convince Raven that kick or the saber damage is a bug. It works the way they want it to work. Originally posted by traj We will either play the way we like, or not play at all. So will everyone else. That is all anyone can ask. Either play the game or don't. Raven/Lucasarts is going to do what they think is best, which is either going to make you (the collective you) happy or upset. Then people have to decide if the game is for them. For a certain number of people, it seems, it won't be. Originally posted by Doctor Shaft No, it's not silly, and here's why. A standard. Cvars will never solve the perceived problem, except for the small group of people that want to see the problem fixed. I know what your saying, Doc. And I agree that it is an issue. But a patch isn't really going to solve the problem either, as far as I can tell. Vanor has made some of the points I wanted to make, but I'll play devil's advocate as well. Originally posted by Doctor Shaft Without a standard, that means that only a server with the cvars set for higher saber damage will a person find any comfort. Unfortunately, most people do not alter the game using cvars, and even if they did, it wouldn't matter, because some pepole would think that 3 is fine, while others think 2 is even better, and another vast majority thinks that the standard game should be played. A patch is not going to solve the problem of different people wanting a different damage setting. Personally I would like damage a little higher, but I know many others would want it even higher than I do, and many more still would want it less. Raven knows this. They have already made their choice of what they think the damage should be. Not everyone likes it, but many do. Regardless, it is a standard. Patching a change isn't going to make more people happy, because it will just be a new group that is happy and new group that is upset. Originally posted by Doctor Shaft Without a standard, people who wish to be competitive, but have higher saber damage, can't really do it unless the entire competitive community agrees on a certain set of cvars. And, when they go around playing other people on standard servers, the game will be different. Again, the competative community already has a standard, whether they want to use it or not. Creating a new patch won't necessarily make all competative players all of a sudden agree with the new standard. If they really just wanted a standard, everyone would be happy right now. The problem is that what people want is a standard that everyone is happy with, which I fear is unattainable. The issue you mention of cvars making every server different is a good one. This is exactly why some people (Al as an example ) is advocating waiting a bit before a patch. Adding more cvars for kick and various other options only increases the problem that every server players go on will be different, and thus there will be no standard gameplay at all (if it gets taken too far). Also, right now there are many views on what should be changed. Should the the single saber be made more powerful? Should kicks return exactly like JO? Should kicks return in a modified form? Should kicks not return at all? Should saberstaff and dual sabers be nerfed? So many people with so many opinions based on what they have seen so far. How is a patch going to make the community more happy as a whole? Only make changes that the majority wants. Raven will have to decide what that is, and whether it warrants a patch. Originally posted by Doctor Shaft People just want a standard. Premature patching or not, that's what peopl are looking for... a standard. The community will never agree on any standard settings, so we have to see what Raven will do. Like I say, I think Raven has decided already, and we have it. I may end up being wrong, but from what I have read Raven has said that they will not make any changes for one particular group. They look at the community as a whole. I take that to mean that if there changes that some players want that most don't, then it won't be changed. As for the saber damage issue, the posts from Raven devs I have seen in the past about this issue (which goes back to JO) has met with the universal response of "use the damage cvars". I wish the search function was working so I could give you some examples. The reason is that is what they are there for, and that Raven cannot decide what is good for everyone. This was mentioned as one of the big lessons they learned from JO. So I suspect that there won't be a damage adjustment if in fact there is a patch. This may mean that the competative community will have to come to some consensis on its own, and I will have to be content with the sabers as they are, or look for servers with higher damage scales (and there seem to be more out there). Originally posted by Ardent We're not some geeks off the street. We're handy with the steel if you know what I mean. Actually, I think that is what does make us geeks off the streets. Being good at video games isn't what makes us lord of the ladies, if you know what I mean Originally posted by Ardent Wha wha wha? Frankly, most of the people who post here ARE in favor of changes. Which is sort of the problem, I think. Everyone has an idea of what the changes should be, me included. The problem is that there are so many different ideas that it would be very hard for Raven to make a patch that satisfies the majority. Apart from these forums, most of the response about JA seems to be quite positive. I think the idea of those who want to wait a bit is to play a bit longer to get a better idea of what the real issues are and if in fact there are any solutions already in the game. I don't think anyone is saying there is no room for improvement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FK | unnamed Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 Here are some serious problems and why: Grip LOS nerf: Problem: Only retards can be gripped. People with even semi decent reflexes and push/pull bound to a key will instantly break it. The only way to stop it from being broken is to shake the mouse around. And after a year and a half of playing JO, trust me, shaking your mouse around is not going to make a damn bit of difference if the person you are trying to grip is someone like myself. I'm going to break it within 1 second, simply because I don't panic and mash pull, I trace the movement and press accordingly. As do other competitive players. This makes this power useless now in a realistic situation. In JO grip was the one thing a dark side drain whore *had to fear. All it took was one 3 kick GK combo and the match was over. No matter what his HP was. Now that it is gone, there is nothing to fear for a dark side drain whore. The lack of kicks: We need a “stopping power”. Kicks were it. In CTF think of kicks like a portable brick wall. In duels think of them like jab that stuns right before the knock out uppercut. The staff kicks are worthless against anything other than bots or noobs. Too slow. Too restrictive. The Force special nerf: In a drain war (in a FF duel) the light stance lunge was the one thing that kept the guy doing the draining on his toes. It was fast, precise, and did damn good damage. When you were being drain whored and had to scramble and run away, a simple fade and turn+lunge could shift the tide of the match instantly. Kicks also functioned in this manner in regards to drain whores. A guy was down to his last 25 force and just holding down the drain key on you. You score a knock down with a kick and go for a dfa. His *only option is to force push you, if he does not, he dies. Now guess what? That push put him at a lower level of force than you have. Now you can drain his ass. Tide has been turned yet again. Now I can't lunge because I have no gas... can't kick... can't Kata, no gas... I can... run? wow.. do basic swings that do little damage and the fact that he is healing while I am hitting him is going to make me win somehow? try again.. This is exactly why these moves *did bring balance to our game type and why removing them and putting nerfs on some of them did unbalanced the hell out of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
traj Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 Originally posted by Vanor First you say... Then you say... So which is it? There's a cvar to change saber damage, so you can play how you like it, and others can play how they want it. But you also say that setting saber damage scales is not acceptable. So which is it? He's not talking about saber damage cvars. He wants cvar options for kick, los grip, and force spent for specials if I understand UJ correctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FK | unnamed Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 yeah, look under his post, I spelled it out all nice and purdy. btw please release the tools so Hex can fix this noob caca. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
traj Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 Ya my bad, this thread is moving so fast that by the time I had read all the posts and posted mine, 6 new ones had been made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanor Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 Originally posted by FK | unnamed This makes this power useless now in a realistic situation. In JO grip was the one thing a dark side drain whore *had to fear. Ok I can see that. Guess I didn't see it, because I don't play with the dark side powers much. The lack of kicks: We need a “stopping power”. Kicks were it. I'd be all for a cvar that enables JO style kicks. The Force special nerf: In a drain war (in a FF duel) the light stance lunge was the one thing that kept the guy doing the draining on his toes. Personally I think the fix to this is changing how drain works. But I never liked how drain worked in JO either. But I can see the point, there's no real defense for a dark jedi vs drain now, because there's no move that can cause major damage when you have no force mana left. I can see why this is a problem in comptitive play. I could see the point in putting a cvar that removes the force drain on specials. I think the force cost was a good idea, as it keeps people from spamming moves. But I can also see why that's not a factor to comptitive play, people there shouldn't be spamming moves. This is exactly why these moves *did bring balance to our game type and why removing them and putting nerfs on some of them did unbalanced the hell out of it. That all makes sense to me. I think putting cvars in to make the game more customizable to suit the taste of a given group makes sense. Fragmenting the comunity is IMO a non issue, it's better to have many small to medium groups who play slightly different, then one group that plays all the same. If that one group is smaller then the many groups combined. So I'd be all for more cvars that alow people to tweak the game to suit their taste. I don't think changing the standard game to suit the taste of a single group is a good idea however. I think the idea that a comunity that has diverse playstyles, is a good thing, not a bad thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rumor Posted October 4, 2003 Share Posted October 4, 2003 Originally posted by Vanor snipped.... again saber damages only address SABERS. they have nothing to do with force. i know you think that it makes no sense how we think that specials costing force is rediculous, but then, you don't play our gametype. we do. the LOS restriction on grip is simple. in jk2 you still had to see them to START the grip. once you started you can move them behind something for the rest of it. we aren't talking gripping them through walls (actually starting the grip through them) without being able to see them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanor Posted October 4, 2003 Share Posted October 4, 2003 Originally posted by Rumor i know you think that it makes no sense how we think that specials costing force is rediculous, but then, you don't play our gametype. we do. Did you read my post? The one above yours? I said quite clearly I can understand why comptitive players have an issue with the force cost for special moves. I also said I'd be all for a cvar that disables that. the LOS restriction on grip is simple. in jk2 you still had to see them to START the grip. Again, I can see the point behind why this is a bad idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rumor Posted October 4, 2003 Share Posted October 4, 2003 i was still on the last page. 56k + huge forum load + 3-4 threads i'm reading at once (just the ones on this board) = slow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanor Posted October 4, 2003 Share Posted October 4, 2003 Originally posted by Rumor 56k + huge forum load + 3-4 threads i'm reading at once (just the ones on this board) = slow. Understandable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeyjuan Posted October 4, 2003 Share Posted October 4, 2003 JK:A = JK:O 1.05 w/JediPlus+++++ver10.89 YES: there is new moves to the game. NO: it is not useful in anyway shape or form to kill anyone. YES: it is fun for about 15 minutes. NO: it is not fun after 20 minutes of runing around holding mouse1. YES: i let my 6 year old nephew play JK:O NO: he didn't get more then 1 or 2 kills in a 20 minute match; last place. YES: i let my now 6.5 year old nephew play JK:A. YES: he managed to get 4th place on a 16 person server (the things they learn in .5 years, lotta skill *sarcasm*). YES: the community will 'fragment' if they make patches. NO: there will not be any community left if they wait much longer. YES: you can up saber damage via cvar for competition play. NO: it does not help because of flawed saber system w/ spuratic defence and random damage it becomes skill-less; making it so 'competitive' players wont want to play it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rumor Posted October 4, 2003 Share Posted October 4, 2003 Originally posted by Vanor Understandable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-(- -)-Pyro Posted October 4, 2003 Share Posted October 4, 2003 Originally posted by mikeyjuan YES: i let my 6 year old nephew play JK:O NO: he didn't get more then 1 or 2 kills in a 20 minute match; last place. YES: i let my now 6.5 year old nephew play JK:A. YES: he managed to get 4th place on a 16 person server (the things they learn in .5 years). that's gotta be the most damning evidence yet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
traj Posted October 4, 2003 Share Posted October 4, 2003 mikeyjuan = sinny? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeyjuan Posted October 4, 2003 Share Posted October 4, 2003 Yah sinny... I think i'm the only one who lets his nephew play JK. LoL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
traj Posted October 4, 2003 Share Posted October 4, 2003 Hahaha...it was a dead giveaway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabrobot Posted October 4, 2003 Share Posted October 4, 2003 Originally posted by mikeyjuan JK:A = JK:O 1.05 w/JediPlus+++++ver10.89 From a technical stand point, absolutely not. JA has many engine improvements over JKII, which I have pointed out before, and will again if need be. From a gameplay stand point, the game has only been out a couple weeks, and it is too early to say what is effective or not, since people are still learning the new moves. Originally posted by mikeyjuan YES: there is new moves to the game. NO: it is not useful in anyway shape or form to kill anyone. Sounds like you haven't mastered them yet... (This goes with my previous sentence about gameplay) Originally posted by mikeyjuan YES: it is fun for about 15 minutes. NO: it is not fun after 20 minutes of runing around holding mouse1. That is your opinion about MP. It's interesting to note that most people, who like JA, were expecting to at least play and like SP... (Like Spider AL) Originally posted by mikeyjuan YES: i let my 6 year old nephew play JK:O NO: he didn't get more then 1 or 2 kills in a 20 minute match; last place. YES: i let my now 6.5 year old nephew play JK:A. YES: he managed to get 4th place on a 16 person server (the things they learn in .5 years, lotta skill *sarcasm*). Hmmm, sounds like there either weren't many people on the server, or they sucked. I've joined servers where most people have 0 points, and most have negative points... (I'm not sure where these people come from, but they make good saber fodder) Originally posted by mikeyjuan YES: the community will 'fragment' if they make patches. NO: there will not be any community left if they wait much longer. That's incorrect...there are many people in the community who don't give a bantha about NG CTF...I have a feeling Siege is what's going to keep the life in JA... Originally posted by mikeyjuan YES: you can up saber damage via cvar for competition play. NO: it does not help because of flawed saber system w/ spuratic defence and random damage it becomes skill-less; making it so 'competitive' players wont want to play it. Keep in mind there might be some technical issues causing some of the things you mentioned, and that if Raven fixes them, it might not be a problem. Maybe you should just wait for a patch which fixes technical issues, before you start blaming the saber system. (Also don't forget that bashing the saber system might not be a great idea, as the programmer who programmed a lot of it is the Raven guy who usually visits these forums...if they get the wrong impression (or as I suspect, the right impression ) about competitive gamers being rude and stuff (*cough*), they may decide to screw you completely... ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
traj Posted October 4, 2003 Share Posted October 4, 2003 Yes Sin, make sure you don't speak your mind on the issue or RAVEN won't do anything to fix the stalemates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabrobot Posted October 4, 2003 Share Posted October 4, 2003 Originally posted by traj Yes Sin, make sure you don't speak your mind on the issue or RAVEN won't do anything to fix the stalemates. Well if speaking his mind means bashing Mike's hard work, then yes, he probably shouldn't speak his mind, if he's smart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emon Posted October 4, 2003 Share Posted October 4, 2003 Originally posted by mikeyjuan JK:A = JK:O 1.05 w/JediPlus+++++ver10.89 YES: there is new moves to the game. NO: it is not useful in anyway shape or form to kill anyone. YES: it is fun for about 15 minutes. NO: it is not fun after 20 minutes of runing around holding mouse1. YES: i let my 6 year old nephew play JK:O NO: he didn't get more then 1 or 2 kills in a 20 minute match; last place. YES: i let my now 6.5 year old nephew play JK:A. YES: he managed to get 4th place on a 16 person server (the things they learn in .5 years, lotta skill *sarcasm*). YES: the community will 'fragment' if they make patches. NO: there will not be any community left if they wait much longer. YES: you can up saber damage via cvar for competition play. NO: it does not help because of flawed saber system w/ spuratic defence and random damage it becomes skill-less; making it so 'competitive' players wont want to play it. 1. The only significant concepts you could say Raven "borrowed" from the mod are the new sabers, which have been around far longer than those mods. Also, JA doesn't suck like JediPlus does. 2. They are very useful. If you aren't finding them useful, then you probably suck. 3. If that's what you think is playing JA, then again, you probably suck. 4. Judging by the maturity of your posts, I'm going to guess you aren't old enough to have a nephew. True, it can happen to kids and young people, but it's more likely you made this up just to support your already moot arguments. 5. Community will fragment? I didn't know you had a time machine, buddy. 6. The system isn't flawed, you are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeyjuan Posted October 4, 2003 Share Posted October 4, 2003 Yah I was keeping it modest, that is the best i can say for the game =/ My 2 cents is not going to make or break there decision as its all $$$$ based. I spent my cash on the game and I still feel they are jip'n me my 50 bucks on a game that entertained for about 12.5 minutes. Its been out long enough now for them to do something. There is no depth to the game, as the hardcore-competitive players who strive on depth and precision moves, have said over and over. Now a lot of the 'casual' players wont know this for like 2 more months, but it doesn't mean raven can't address it now. Imagine- they could nip it in the butt b4 the 'casual' gamer *who the game was made for, right?* even notices. Like UJ said Halo, Ut2k3, H2, D3 all due out soon... the longer they (Raven) wait the more the shift *at least in my clan* will be to those other games- as its already begun into Halo. I got half a clan who, because of the few who have purchased it and critiqued it, will not purchase it till it is fixed. I can probably tell you 15 - 20 JK:O people off the top of my head who are DIEING to get this game but are waiting to purchase it because, as of now, its a horrid investment for the hardcore gamer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emon Posted October 4, 2003 Share Posted October 4, 2003 I'm a hardcore gamer, and I love it. I don't play competitively, but I don't see why I can't be classified as hardcore, gaming and editing games is my biggest hobby. And, pardon me, but, what would you know about the game? It appears you just registered this month, which, unless you had an old name, means you probably haven't played JO competitively, either, because you almost certantly would have been registered here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeyjuan Posted October 4, 2003 Share Posted October 4, 2003 2. They are very useful. If you aren't finding them useful, then you probably suck. Yes they are useful fighting of flocks of people wildly swinging. Realistically if you ever get hit w/ one of those Kata's, you are the one who, in your words "sucks". In turn if you are doing these Kata's and leaving yourself vulnerable, again in your words, that makes you the one who...... 3. If that's what you think is playing JA, then again, you probably suck. Since I addressed how useless the Kata's are in a fight against anyone w/ common sense, that would explain why the only resort is to run around w/ mouse1. 4. Judging by the maturity of your posts, I'm going to guess you aren't old enough to have a nephew. True, it can happen to kids and young people, but it's more likely you made this up just to support your already moot arguments. Yes, I have days where my posts are immature because I get irritated reading some of the babble. But that is not the point. You can ask anyone about my nephew playing all the time, as you saw, someone figure out who I was just by me saying "I let my nephew play", because its something I, being the nice uncle, do regularly. And secondly it isn't a lie wish there was a way to prove it. 5. Community will fragment? I didn't know you had a time machine, buddy. I was mainly agreeing with Al and Spider *i think it was, too lazy to check* but just like JK:O did, I dont know why JK:A wouldn't do the same afterall its 90% same game and probably 90% the same players. How about I reword that "JK:A will MOST LIKELY *not certainly* fragment as JK:O did because of the wide range of people who play JK games, the different types of game *ctf, duel, siege, etc*, as well as the wepon choices *saber only, guns, mixed...*" 6. The system isn't flawed, you are Random personal attack, nice way to end your post. If you believe the saber system is not flawed, I suggest you do a search through this forum and read over the various complains of the saber inbalances and awkwardnesses (<-- is that a word?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeyjuan Posted October 4, 2003 Share Posted October 4, 2003 You might be hardcore gamer *meaning loving games* but if you dont have the competitiveness *meaning striving to be the best*. Maybe we could call you hardcore-but-casual... lol what ever it may be you wont see it for a while untill you are bored with the game. There really is nothing to master, so to speak, other then common sense stuff: getting good distance to evade while close enough to land own attack, not getting stuck in a kata unless your sure you will finish the person, pulling off *the very simple, easy to do* moves with out mashing the wrong button, etc. I'm sure you know what i mean. If you have some other things you can suggest that someone who mastered JK:O can work on in JK:A, I would be more the happy to hear it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rumor Posted October 4, 2003 Share Posted October 4, 2003 Originally posted by Gabrobot From a technical stand point, absolutely not. JA has many engine improvements over JKII, which I have pointed out before, and will again if need be. From a gameplay stand point, the game has only been out a couple weeks, and it is too early to say what is effective or not, since people are still learning the new moves. Sounds like you haven't mastered them yet... (This goes with my previous sentence about gameplay) That is your opinion about MP. It's interesting to note that most people, who like JA, were expecting to at least play and like SP... (Like Spider AL) Hmmm, sounds like there either weren't many people on the server, or they sucked. I've joined servers where most people have 0 points, and most have negative points... (I'm not sure where these people come from, but they make good saber fodder) That's incorrect...there are many people in the community who don't give a bantha about NG CTF...I have a feeling Siege is what's going to keep the life in JA... Keep in mind there might be some technical issues causing some of the things you mentioned, and that if Raven fixes them, it might not be a problem. Maybe you should just wait for a patch which fixes technical issues, before you start blaming the saber system. (Also don't forget that bashing the saber system might not be a great idea, as the programmer who programmed a lot of it is the Raven guy who usually visits these forums...if they get the wrong impression (or as I suspect, the right impression ) about competitive gamers being rude and stuff (*cough*), they may decide to screw you completely... ) sorry we already learned all the uber leet moves in the game. it took about 10 minutes. oh and incase you havent noticed we were already screwed over completely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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