Solo Saber Nerfed Thread

[Prime]

Originally posted by Rad Blackrose

For christ sakes, unnamed has been here the whole time telling you to get a team together (8 people I believe), then take on his team of 5 and watch the carnage.

I haven't been following this thread to much of late, mainly because of the very long posts. I just thought lllKyNeSlll's idea was good, and very easy to do. I hadn't seen the offer to play a game. Sorry. If you don't want to make a demo, just say no.

 

Originally posted by Rad Blackrose

You can see it with YOUR OWN EYES!

As I have been told constantly by competative players on these forums, since I am not a compatative player, I must not be good enough to see the full effect of these issues (or contribute an opinion for that matter). When I play, I find the gameplay to be satisfactory, apparently because I am not skilled. Hence a game between me (the "casual gamer") and competative players probably wouldn't show me these problems, because all I've heard is that competative players still wipe the floor with ordinary players. When some suggestions have been given in the past, a lot of the responses have said that it won't work with skilled competative players.

 

How is playing me, an average player, going to show me these problems? If I go on the server and get my assed kicked, I certainly doubt I am going to say that there is no way either side can win. But making a demo of a skilled compatative game, where these problems are so painfully apparent, with make it obvious to all.

 

And whether it is me playing or I see it on a demo, I am still seeing it with my own eyes

 

Originally posted by Rad Blackrose

The fact that people like Gabrobot, you, and Al have avoided it and now suddenly say "Show us the demos" is pure hypocracy.

I don't know about the other two, but I am not saying show me the demos because I don't believe you, I just thought a demo or two would be helpful (for me at least) to see exactly what a match between to good competative teams really looks like. Since I am not "l33t", playing me isn't going to prove anything to anybody.

 

Hard as it may seem, I am not out to get you.

[Rad Blackrose]

I haven't been following this thread to much of late, mainly because of the very long posts. I just thought lllKyNeSlll's idea was good, and very easy to do. I hadn't seen the offer to play a game. Sorry. If you don't want to make a demo, just say no.

 

It wasn't in just this thread Prime, he's issued the challenge in others.

 

I don't know about the other two, but I am not saying show me the demos because I don't believe you, I just thought a demo or two would be helpful (for me at least) to see exactly what a match between to good competative teams really looks like. Since I am not "l33t", playing me isn't going to prove anything to anybody.

 

Hard as it may seem, I am not out to get you.

 

If you want to see a good FF duel demo from JKII, pick up the Reborn/Impunity match... I'd get the link if the Search function was still up. That demonstrates the problems with sabers, and it transfers over to JA even with the addition of new moves.

 

Prime, I'm sorry I had to bring you in as one of the three, and I agree, you're mild comared to Al and the AxVegeta wannabe right now.

 

EDIT:

 

Second of all: you can kick-kill while doing teh l337 butterflyez? This is the kick-bug?

 

I haven't tested the kick bug in relation to the butterfly kick, but it does work with the standard staff saber kick

[Prime]

Originally posted by Rad Blackrose

If you want to see a good FF duel demo from JKII, pick up the Reborn/Impunity match... I'd get the link if the Search function was still up. That demonstrates the problems with sabers, and it transfers over to JA even with the addition of new moves.

A JO demo isn't going to show the issues such a lack of kick, is it? Just wondering...

[Rad Blackrose]

It shows why kick is essential. You see almost every trick in the book: PTK, GK, Grip + Hide, PK, etc.

 

You also see why Drain is power number 1 to have, and without kick why it can cause stalemates in JA.

[dyehead]

Holy shizzle, my thread turned out to be HYOOGE! I rock! Apparently people agree that the saber needs fixing!

 

Please Raven, look into the balance issues discussed here for your upcoming patch! Thanks for the hard work!

[Ardent]

Originally posted by Prime

I haven't been following this thread to much of late, mainly because of the very long posts. I just thought lllKyNeSlll's idea was good, and very easy to do. I hadn't seen the offer to play a game. Sorry. If you don't want to make a demo, just say no.

 

I guess I could demo some of my FFA ownings. It'd be good for a laugh, I guess. But it's not going to be a small file, which raises the question: if I made it available, would it even be looked at by the nay-sayers here? I think it's a lot easier to organize a game, or even a match spectation if you feel us romping you isn't a great example of the gameplay flaws and let you see first hand the issues we have with the game.

 

As I have been told constantly by competative players on these forums, since I am not a compatative player, I must not be good enough to see the full effect of these issues (or contribute an opinion for that matter). When I play, I find the gameplay to be satisfactory, apparently because I am not skilled. Hence a game between me (the "casual gamer") and competative players probably wouldn't show me these problems, because all I've heard is that competative players still wipe the floor with ordinary players. When some suggestions have been given in the past, a lot of the responses have said that it won't work with skilled competative players.

 

I'm pretty sure I've maintained the position that I'm more qualified to make these assessments because, as a competitive player, I spend more time playing and put more effort into finding winning strategies. I don't enjoy romping 99% of the community. I would much rather lose a pub game than win one. But if all of the good players are looking elsewhere for their fix (as is becoming the case), then I can kiss the thought of challenge good-bye.

 

In JO, it was conceivable that you could bust into a pub game and find someone at/near or even above your skill level and that would almost certainly create an exciting game...for everyone. Right now FF SO CTF is a stalemate when played by competitive-level players, while NF SO FFA is a matter of who can whore flying backslash better (and it's almost always me ). FF SO FFA usually boils down to who can grip throw, whore lightning more frequently and use drain better.

 

How is playing me, an average player, going to show me these problems? If I go on the server and get my assed kicked, I certainly doubt I am going to say that there is no way either side can win. But making a demo of a skilled compatative game, where these problems are so painfully apparent, with make it obvious to all.

 

Better to have you guys watch in person, at least. A 3v3 SO TFFA or CTF will demonstrate the problems pretty handily.

 

And whether it is me playing or I see it on a demo, I am still seeing it with my own eyes

 

Point taken, but a demo provides a very limited perspective (i.e. singular) on the game, while a half dozen spectators provides a lot more.

 

I don't know about the other two, but I am not saying show me the demos because I don't believe you, I just thought a demo or two would be helpful (for me at least) to see exactly what a match between to good competative teams really looks like. Since I am not "l33t", playing me isn't going to prove anything to anybody.

 

A demo of me playing is basically going to show you how effective fbs, bs and kata whoring is (and that's just using my 6.725 sensitivity to spin, forget about binding a key to yawspeed). If you don't believe me on that, then you probably aren't playing the same game. ><

 

Hard as it may seem, I am not out to get you.

 

Hey, I believe you. That's why I've been trying to treat you respectfully and civilly.

 

I have little doubt that the first patch will at least kick butterfly cost up to 50 and probably add a force cost to bs. I honestly doubt, however, that yawspeed will be disabled, as it's important to certain invisible gameplay functions. But hopefully it will be limited severely enough that you don't see yawspeed whores.

[Prime]

Originally posted by Rad Blackrose

It shows why kick is essential. You see almost every trick in the book: PTK, GK, Grip + Hide, PK, etc.

 

You also see why Drain is power number 1 to have, and without kick why it can cause stalemates in JA.

I know the effectiveness of all these JO moves, and I have experienced them first hand, both on the giving and receiving ends

 

But knowing their effectiveness doesn't really show me why they are necessary in JA. There are new moves and new tricks in JA that weren't in JO. I want to see why these moves that have replaced the ones you mention do not fulfill the "requirements". This is why I am keen on seeing this first hand, through a demo or otherwise.

 

Originally posted by Ardent

I guess I could demo some of my FFA ownings. It'd be good for a laugh, I guess. But it's not going to be a small file, which raises the question: if I made it available, would it even be looked at by the nay-sayers here?

Your FFA ownings are unnecessary, as I have seen some of my own I am more concerned about FF S/O CTF and FF S/O Duels because those are supposed to be the gametypes that are unplayable.

 

Originally posted by Ardent

I think it's a lot easier to organize a game, or even a match spectation if you feel us romping you isn't a great example of the gameplay flaws and let you see first hand the issues we have with the game...

 

Better to have you guys watch in person, at least. A 3v3 SO TFFA or CTF will demonstrate the problems pretty handily.

Cool. I am happy to do that instead. All I want is to see these issues first hand.

[FK | unnamed]

I made a bunch of challenges, I offered any of the "learn and adapt" crowd a chance to field a team of 8 players.

 

And we "whiners" would be able to shut your entire 8 man team down and stalemate a match if we only played with 5 people on our side.

 

(The 3 man advantage for you guys was to balance the odds due to our experience in the game type of FF/SO CTF)

 

 

I also offered to 1v1 anyone on these forums, not as a “I’m going to own you” type of deal, but as a demonstration that people like me, who only play these games for the “game” part, and not the star wars stuff, simply cant not be killed unless they get bored and let you kill them.

 

Drain is just far too potent, and the damage you can do with the limited options at your disposal simply is not enough to compete with drain when used wisely.

 

 

I'll make some short demos of bugs and general things that need looked at and post them later this week.

[Spider AL]

Kynes:

 

The single best evidence for any view are demos. If you guys could produce demos of jk2 showing how you can still kill drain people 1v1 and show how its almost impossible in jk3 it will prove your point better.

Sorry, but this would only prove that gameplay isn't to the liking of the people who made the demos. That's not the issue. The issue is that premature patching of a game rarely fixes as many problems as it creates. Why? Because the total understanding of the gameplay of the ENTIRE game and all its gametypes simply doesn't exist until a certain amount of time passes.

 

Mikeyjuan:

 

And as for your past experiance that is nice- but hearing that does surprise me that you dont find the lack of challenge/depth/combos/advancement in the game. Maybe you already do, but your just debating the patch not be released to fix that stuff yet?

Got it in a nutshell. I know everything you know about JA. I know what I think could be improved about it at this time. But I don't think I or any other person is qualified to make DEMANDS about what should be changed until MORE time has passed. I hope that clarifies the position for you.

 

Plazma:

 

You don't even play saber only, Al so what business do you have here other than self-ritiously protecting JA from the oh-so-evil "premature patch"? We got your point that you don't like these "premature" patches so what else are you trying to prove?

First of all, Of course I play sabres-only. I've said that quite a few times. You should pay more attention, and get your facts straight. Secondly I'm trying to prove to people who aren't as wilfully blind as yourself that a premature patch would indeed be a bad thing by citing other games, Tribes, UT, JO itself and many more, as examples of the bad things that can happen to games that are prematurely patched. Thirdly and finally I'm making sure that my voice is heard on here, so that people of the same opinion as myself won't feel as though they're the only ones who feel this way, while reading the endless reams of repetitive stuff you and yours produce. In addition, I'm making sure my voice is heard so that Raven doesn't think that the ENTIRE community wants a premature gameplay-altering patch.

 

You have no evidence that the evil premature patch will do anything bad to JA besides previous experiences in JK2. I think Raven has learned from the mistake of 1.03 and won't make such big changes. We, however have shown in many ways that the game needs patching. Please post some valid evidence that this evil "premature" patch will do something bad. Until then, what you say is not necessarily true.

Of course I've produced evidence. I've cited all the other games that have been negatively affected by premature gameplay patching. Just because you've ignored it, doesn't mean I haven't typed it out. Read my other posts. Secondly, what evidence would you LIKE me to find? Shall I hop into my time-machine and teleport into next year when I can look at the effects that a premature patch would have on JA? Heh, that was a joke, but even if I could do it, and I brought the info back and posted it on here, you'd just accuse me of lying anyway. Them's the breaks I suppose.

 

Besides, YOU prove that a premature patch won't cause ANY damage whatsoever, to the whole community. You do that. THEN you have the right to lobby for one. Tables turned. See what you come up with.

 

Ardent:

 

I almost stopped reading here, because if this is your opener, it's pretty clear you've got nothing worthwhile to say. As far as my "forum ettiquette" goes, I just hit quote and responded. You had nothing worth responding to point-for-point in there.

Another ill-fitting excuse for the fact that your particular brand of pointless bluster is ineffective against my purely logic-based arguments.

 

When there is no correct answer, there is also no wrong answer. There are only answers that raise more questions. This one raises the following question: if I can be civil, why can't you?

Once again your attempt at philosophical discourse falls around your ankles and pools. You got it wrong, now admit it and stagger away. As for your question, the answer is: You're not being civil, and I'm being remarkably civil in the face of such blatant trolling.

 

I am a mercenary, Spider AL. I help people for money. That's the nature of all of my jobs. Of course, I don't work desk jobs (not in the sense a corporate drone does anyway), so I can't really speak to their nature, but the basic theory is the same. Work for someone, they pay you. The working man is a mercenary these days, AL.

That's INCREDIBLY interesting to me, Ardent. So the excuse you give for your argument being plainly mercenary (which you admit, presumably) is that "the working man is mercenary!" Well this is a computer game, and you're not being payed to try to ruin it for everyone else. So stop asking for a premature patch, Mercman.

 

And of course it's selfish. In the same way the requests everyone else makes of Raven is selfish. Your request is selfish as well.

I'm glad you admit that you're being selfish. Let me explain why I am not being selfish: Your request is selfish because it will gratify you with gameplay changes, if pandered to by Raven. My request is that your requests not be pandered to by Raven until much more time to evaluate the game has been taken. That is not selfish, it is community-spirited, because it defends the right of the burgeoning community to find their own niche in this new game. Secondly my request does NOT contain my OWN ideas of how to fix the game. I am no hypocrite despite all your poorly formed assertions to the contrary, so I do not burden Raven with my own suggestions as to how to improve the game. I will wait for three months to have passed after the game's release date, before doing so.

 

So while you admit that your arguments are purely selfish, I have just provided much evidence to disprove your additional assertion that my arguments are also selfish. They are not. Ty.

 

you really have nothing to say in rebuttal to my points.

Are those what you call "points"? They're not what I call points. Regardless, I rebutted them most effectively. You're merely sticking your fingers in your ears and singing "la-la-la" again.

 

Et tu AL? Pseudo-intellectualism (which is, by the way, a compound word and thus should be hyphenated) is a fairly standard troll dismissal of an argument beyond their comprehension.

OMG A MISSING HYPHEN!!!11 Debating the quality of the opponent's grammar is an EXTREMELY standard trolling device, designed to distract people from the fact that the troll's arguments have just been trampled into pulp. And your arguments haven't changed throughout this debate. So since you're afraid that their flimsiness is becoming more and more evident, you try to couch them in "FILOSOFY!!!12!!1". A most obvious ploy. I feel obliged to point it out.

 

Tut tut. You keep finding deeper and deeper levels of immaturity. I doubt you'd like it if some of your contemporary trolls quoted your typos.

 

I don't recall saying I was leaving. In fact, I'm not sure I'm the one that should be leaving.

Oh? You said this a few posts ago...

 

I don't see any need to continue from here, as it's pretty clear where things were going.

Seems like you were declaring that you were not continuing, to me. I'm glad you're still here, though.

 

No, they are intrinsically bound. I'm not sure why that's so unclear to you. Of COURSE I want to reintroduce kick.

Bugs and gameplay are separate. Fixing bugs may alter gameplay depending on the bug, but altering gameplay can never be called a bugfix. What you want is not a bugfix, and any attempt by you to link or merge the two is misguided and obviously flawed.

 

That's fine, I never denied you were out there. I just pointed out that everyone has a voice (no offense to any mutes in the audience) and if they want to be heard they ought to speak up. You've done so, and it is duly noted.

Ahh, the joy of watching one's opposition slam on the handbrake and u-turn their way right around.

 

I haven't bashed Raven in any larger way than perhaps my negative reception of the game.

You've been supporting the camp that has, however. Don't forget that.

 

As far as figuring out all of the strategies, that's a bit different from deciphering all of the game's mechanics. But I think it's fair to say that thus far we've figured out all of the strategies that have no equivalent in JO. There weren't a whole lot, if the first two and a half weeks are a fair indication, and frankly, it will be. The chances better strategies will be devised is present, but slim. Every day that passes the chances drop tangibly.

Hmm, once again you're claiming in a roundabout way that you know everything there is to know about JA. That's fine, you're entitled to any level of egotism you can attain. Problem is, I'm not willing to risk the fact that you're wrong. New strategies were evolving for JO nearly constantly for a period of no less than three months. Not just because competitive-minded players devised new strategies daily, but because the host of new players coming in playing the game all contributed something to the formation of ideas, even if most of them were test-dummies for the competitive-minded people.

 

Despite that, let's imagine that there's some parallel universe out there where you're right, and that you know everything there is to know about JA already. So what. It's still not worth the RISK that you're wrong. Understand?

 

Rad:

 

For christ sakes, unnamed has been here the whole time telling you to get a team together (8 people I believe), then take on his team of 5 and watch the carnage.

 

You can see it with YOUR OWN EYES!

 

The fact that people like Gabrobot, you, and Al have avoided it and now suddenly say "Show us the demos" is pure hypocracy.

Hey, watch your step there Rad, I never said anything about demos. I've always accepted that NG CTFers may indeed have a crap gametype in JA, and that other gametypes may indeed be crap. That does NOT mean that you or ANYONE has the right to muck about with the substance of the game prematurely, risking damage to the ENTIRE community if your "improvements" cause problems that you haven't bothered to research or predict yet.

 

All this time, people like Al happen to be going off on how this is not Jedi Knight II, yet in the meantime ask for no premature patches.

 

-Reverse logic card! Woohoo!

Err what? This is a separate game that I don't want to see get ruined the way JO was. How is that illogical Rad?

 

Patches are inevitable, things are going to get nerfed to oblivion (again) despite the fuss you people put up. And the fact that this isn't JKII means those patches are going to be even more nerf-friendly. I guarantee at the first patch, you can kiss the butterfly kick and yawspeed goodbye.

Nerfing is less likely if the requests for alterations come in a more ordered fashion, which they will if sufficient time to explore the game is taken. The sooner a patch arrives, the more likely it'll simply be a nerf-fest.

 

Gabrobot:

 

Ok, here's one question I want to see you people answer: Why change the gameplay now, then later? If there really are problems with the gameplay, then they can be fixed later when people have a more complete view of JA's gameplay. And if some people are too impatient to wait and will leave before then, then I wouldn't think they'd be the kind of people that would help make a healthy JA community, anyway.

Hear hear. Top banana.

 

***

 

Once again, a last word. Anyone who insists that NG CTF gameplay is GOOD, is misguided. But anyone who insists that it SHOULD be good, had unrealistic expectations when buying the game.

 

When I buy a game, I don't EXPECT to enjoy it. I play it, and if I enjoy it, I keep playing it. It's that simple. THAT'S what I mean when I say it's important that JA is a separate game. I didn't go into JA expecting it to be JO with improvements, I looked upon it as a new experience entirely. Thus I was able to objectively evaluate each gametype and decide which ones I wanted to play, JUST AS I DID IN JO. And JK before it.

 

What the NG CTFers in this thread wanted was JO NG CTF with changes that agreed with them. That was an UNREALISTIC EXPECTATION on their part.

 

Now to clarify the patching issue, I'm not saying that the game should NEVER be patched. But the more rushed the patch is, the more nerfs and flaws and oversights it will contain. I predict this, because of the history associated with the subject. Gameplay patching alienates certain people, inevitably. And the more rushed and premature a gameplay-affecting patch is, the more people it will alienate. So:

 

No premature patching of gameplay in JA, Raven! Remember JO v1.03, and go slowly!

 

(edit) Oh, and Jello, thanks for admitting that the only reason there is ANY appreciable quantity of you people taking part in that poll is because you've been going around canvassing for them.

 

ROFL

 

the only reason there were so many votes was because we TOLD people to come vote

 

In essence, you've admitted that that poll isn't the cross-section of the LF community many of you have claimed that it is. Now in order to balance it out, we'll have to go and get OUR friends to vote as well. How sad... bbl. (/edit)

[Rumor]

the problem with jo 1.03 is that it wasn't tested by the PLAYERS. look at many other games out there. they have people actually test the patches before releasing them.

 

and al, plaz was referring to full force in jk2.

[Ardent]

Originally posted by Spider AL

Sorry, but this would only prove that gameplay isn't to the liking of the people who made the demos. That's not the issue. The issue is that premature patching of a game rarely fixes as many problems as it creates. Why? Because the total understanding of the gameplay of the ENTIRE game and all its gametypes simply doesn't exist until a certain amount of time passes.

 

So you opine. I can respect a person holding a differing opinion. I can't respect someone that seeks to thrust said opinion on everyone else because they're "obviously correct." You've done very little to convince anyone, particularly your opposition, that your opinion is the best one for them. You just continue to blather on about how you you you you... I don't care about you. I care about a soundly-devised opinion that can be rationally, civilly and logically defended when put under scrutiny. So far, you've failed two of the three counts, and I'm being nice.

 

Got it in a nutshell. I know everything you know about JA. I know what I think could be improved about it at this time. But I don't think I or any other person is qualified to make DEMANDS about what should be changed until MORE time has passed. I hope that clarifies the position for you.

 

How do you know that you know everything we do about JA? To paraphrase you: you don't know us. Nor do you play with us, unless you're one of the annoying nubs or lamers that occasionally pops up on our servers.

 

First of all, Of course I play sabres-only. I've said that quite a few times. You should pay more attention, and get your facts straight. Secondly I'm trying to prove to people who aren't as wilfully blind as yourself that a premature patch would indeed be a bad thing by citing other games, Tribes, UT, JO itself and many more, as examples of the bad things that can happen to games that are prematurely patched. Thirdly and finally I'm making sure that my voice is heard on here, so that people of the same opinion as myself won't feel as though they're the only ones who feel this way, while reading the endless reams of repetitive stuff you and yours produce. In addition, I'm making sure my voice is heard so that Raven doesn't think that the ENTIRE community wants a premature gameplay-altering patch.

 

But you're approaching it with the assumption that you know what's best for us. You've all but said "Shut up and let me shove the right answer down your throat!" Sorry, but that doesn't fly at the home office. Or, perhaps more to your liking: homey don't play that game.

 

Of course I've produced evidence. I've cited all the other games that have been negatively affected by premature gameplay patching. Just because you've ignored it, doesn't mean I haven't typed it out. Read my other posts. Secondly, what evidence would you LIKE me to find? Shall I hop into my time-machine and teleport into next year when I can look at the effects that a premature patch would have on JA? Heh, that was a joke, but even if I could do it, and I brought the info back and posted it on here, you'd just accuse me of lying anyway. Them's the breaks I suppose.

 

That's like saying "Look! Dodge's Neon has a problem with its seatbelts! So I can logically assume that all compact cars have problems with their seatbelts!" I haven't been ignoring it. I've been scrutinizing it, in fact, and if your argument was a container, it wouldn't hold uranium, let alone water.

 

Besides, YOU prove that a premature patch won't cause ANY damage whatsoever, to the whole community. You do that. THEN you have the right to lobby for one. Tables turned. See what you come up with.

 

1.04? 1.04 anyone? Raven has shown that they can and do correct problems created with their patches.

 

Another ill-fitting excuse for the fact that your particular brand of pointless bluster is ineffective against my purely logic-based arguments.

 

Yes, the Ardent diatribe™ is potent stuff. Made potent because, unlike some diatribes, it's conducted civilly and built on a foundation of rationale that isn't going to fall apart under scrutiny.

 

Once again your attempt at philosophical discourse falls around your ankles and pools. You got it wrong, now admit it and stagger away. As for your question, the answer is: You're not being civil, and I'm being remarkably civil in the face of such blatant trolling.

 

Just because you can't ponder philosophy doesn't mean I can't. Again, you continue to try to confine me within your own limits.

 

That's INCREDIBLY interesting to me, Ardent. So the excuse you give for your argument being plainly mercenary (which you admit, presumably) is that "the working man is mercenary!" Well this is a computer game, and you're not being payed to try to ruin it for everyone else. So stop asking for a premature patch, Mercman.

 

Again, you don't know me. Perhaps the SO community is sending $.25 donations to my PayPal account for every post I write. You just don't know, so don't go making refutable statements if you don't want them to be refuted. This has been your problem all along. You want to say one thing and then you want everyone to lie down and accept it as the gospel from on high. You have to WORK to get heard, AL.

 

I'm glad you admit that you're being selfish. Let me explain why I am not being selfish: Your request is selfish because it will gratify you with gameplay changes, if pandered to by Raven. My request is that your requests not be pandered to by Raven until much more time to evaluate the game has been taken. That is not selfish, it is community-spirited, because it defends the right of the burgeoning community to find their own niche in this new game. Secondly my request does NOT contain my OWN ideas of how to fix the game. I am no hypocrite despite all your poorly formed assertions to the contrary, so I do not burden Raven with my own suggestions as to how to improve the game. I will wait for three months to have passed after the game's release date, before doing so.

 

Blah blah blah...semantics, AL. Your request is ultimately selfish because you benefit from it. Selflessness (e.g. what you're claiming if you insist you're not being selfish) would be more akin to doing volunteer work where the only compensation was the hatred or apathy of the people you're helping. I do that: I'm a volunteer EMT when I'm not busy getting paid to do it or delivering legal documents. Most of the patients I transport usually arrive unconscious or too drunk to speak coherently, so thank yous are few and far between and death is a fairly common occurance (it's a 15 minute ride to the nearest clinic and over a half an hour to the nearest emergency hospital). I think I've been sued more than I've been thanked, actually.

 

Are those what you call "points"? They're not what I call points. Regardless, I rebutted them most effectively. You're merely sticking your fingers in your ears and singing "la-la-la" again.

 

No, unlike certain persons, I take the time to read a post in its entirety. Then I scrutinize it. THEN I cut it to shreds.

 

OMG A MISSING HYPHEN!!!11 Debating the quality of the opponent's grammar is an EXTREMELY standard trolling device, designed to distract people from the fact that the troll's arguments have just been trampled into pulp. And your arguments haven't changed throughout this debate. So since you're afraid that their flimsiness is becoming more and more evident, you try to couch them in "FILOSOFY!!!12!!1". A most obvious ploy. I feel obliged to point it out.

 

Not putting a period at the end of my sentance would be trolling in your "esteemed" opinion, AL. It hardly makes it true.

 

I was pointing out that pseudo-intellectual is a compound word and thus, should be hyphenated, to accentuate (oops :/) my point that I do, indeed, have every right to speak intellectually when I so choose. If my points have become flimsy AL, yours have been reincarnated as dust mites.

 

Tut tut. You keep finding deeper and deeper levels of immaturity. I doubt you'd like it if some of your contemporary trolls quoted your typos.

 

Go ahead? My typos are few and far between and I tend to catch them before anyone else even looks at the thread.

 

Oh? You said this a few posts ago...

 

Might want to work on your reading comprehension there, AL. But since I'm being civil, I'll help you out: I felt no need to continue quoting you and showing the degradation of your behavior was a trend external of my prodding, as it should have been clear for every reader aside from you under the pressing burden of the evidence presented. I say evidence because there's no arguing that quoted material exists and isn't fabricated...one only has to browse back through the thread to find it.

 

Bugs and gameplay are separate. Fixing bugs may alter gameplay depending on the bug, but altering gameplay can never be called a bugfix. What you want is not a bugfix, and any attempt by you to link or merge the two is misguided and obviously flawed.

 

We aren't asking for the cvar as a bugfix. Our rhetoric is if you're going to be affecting gameplay anyway, why can't you just add a cvar? No guile in that statement, AL. It's plain as day.

 

Ahh, the joy of watching one's opposition slam on the handbrake and u-turn their way right around.

 

I had never denied they were out there, AL. I just said that they hadn't spoken up in that position prior to that point. Comprende?

 

You've been supporting the camp that has, however. Don't forget that.

 

I'm not responsible for what they say any more than you're responsible for what the other members of your camp say. I happen to share a goal. Wanting to see someone die isn't the same as going out and killing them yourself.

 

Hmm, once again you're claiming in a roundabout way that you know everything there is to know about JA. That's fine, you're entitled to any level of egotism you can attain. Problem is, I'm not willing to risk the fact that you're wrong. New strategies were evolving for JO nearly constantly for a period of no less than three months. Not just because competitive-minded players devised new strategies daily, but because the host of new players coming in playing the game all contributed something to the formation of ideas, even if most of them were test-dummies for the competitive-minded people.

 

I left room for probability. You refuse to. Who do you think the odds favor?

 

Despite that, let's imagine that there's some parallel universe out there where you're right, and that you know everything there is to know about JA already. So what. It's still not worth the RISK that you're wrong. Understand?

 

Clearly. But just because you don't want doesn't mean you can throw the dice for all of us. Or rather, not throw them, as seems to be your choice.

 

Hey, watch your step there Rad, I never said anything about demos. I've always accepted that NG CTFers may indeed have a crap gametype in JA, and that other gametypes may indeed be crap. That does NOT mean that you or ANYONE has the right to muck about with the substance of the game prematurely, risking damage to the ENTIRE community if your "improvements" cause problems that you haven't bothered to research or predict yet.

 

Again. Your opinion. Please accurately represent it as such.

 

Once again, a last word. Anyone who insists that NG CTF gameplay is GOOD, is misguided. But anyone who insists that it SHOULD be good, had unrealistic expectations when buying the game.

 

...wtf are you smoking? Seriously. It was great in JO, in fact it was quite bluntly the second best, if not the best. No, it was in no way wrong of us to expect it to be so again. There are certain unrealistic expectations, like for instance a game that everyone can be happy with as-is, but expecting a gametype that previously supported a majority of the competitive community to be good again is not an unrealistic expectation.

 

When I buy a game, I don't EXPECT to enjoy it. I play it, and if I enjoy it, I keep playing it. It's that simple. THAT'S what I mean when I say it's important that JA is a separate game. I didn't go into JA expecting it to be JO with improvements, I looked upon it as a new experience entirely. Thus I was able to objectively evaluate each gametype and decide which ones I wanted to play, JUST AS I DID IN JO. And JK before it.

 

I suppose when you buy anything, you don't expect it to be useful either? That's unrealistic, AL. To expect someone who is spending good money for a license to a piece of software to be happy with a sub-par product.

 

What the NG CTFers in this thread wanted was JO NG CTF with changes that agreed with them. That was an UNREALISTIC EXPECTATION on their part.

 

What we want, first and foremost, is cvars to enable ALL of the old-style gameplay. Just not some of it. That is a wholly realistic expectation when it's been categorically demonstrated that the old-style gameplay's code still exists inside JA.

 

Now to clarify the patching issue, I'm not saying that the game should NEVER be patched. But the more rushed the patch is, the more nerfs and flaws and oversights it will contain. I predict this, because of the history associated with the subject. Gameplay patching alienates certain people, inevitably. And the more rushed and premature a gameplay-affecting patch is, the more people it will alienate.

 

Can you empirically prove that statement, or is it more empty Spider AL logic? I can empirically prove that failing to address the concerns of certain cliques within the community will result in their absence in the future.

 

(edit) Oh, and Jello, thanks for admitting that the only reason there is ANY appreciable quantity of you people taking part in that poll is because you've been going around canvassing for them. In essence, you've admitted that that poll isn't the cross-section of the LF community many of you have claimed that it is. Now in order to balance it out, we'll have to go and get OUR friends to vote as well. How sad... bbl. (/edit)

 

Why? Because they took the time to come to LF and register and vote and express their opinion they're suddenly in the wrong? No. Bluntly, no. If you do not speak up, you will not be heard. To think otherwise is an unrealistic expectation. If you can't find the people, in the same numbers we have, that support your opinion, then you flat out do not have them. The poll is made neither more nor less an accurate cross-section because you deem it so because you can't be bothered to find, or cannot find more likely, people to support your stance.

 

I feel like I'm drowning under all the water escaping from your argument, AL.

[traj]

That was an UNREALISTIC EXPECTATION on their part.

 

 

I don't think it was an unrealist expectation to think I would be able to kill a flag carrier. Nor was it unrealistic to expect that games would have a score at the end.

 

Unrealistic would have been to expect a new force power, seeing as how its a new game and all. Expecting an outcome to a game that is designed to have an outcome is very realistic.

 

When I buy a game, I don't EXPECT to enjoy it.

 

 

Well, maybe you're a very wealthy man , but when I spend $54 on a game it's because I do expect to enjoy it. I don't think I'm in the minority here. I work hard for my money and I don't like throwing it away.

 

They did a good job last time, I expected that I would enjoy this game, so I bought it. I was wrong. My fault maybe for giving them too much credit. But when I spend money on a game and there are obviously flaws with that game, you can expect they'll be hearing from me about it every time.

 

Not whining, just expressing.

[Vanor]

To put my money where my mouth is, as it were. I played a couple dules, with bots, to remove lag from the test, with saberdamage set to 2, and FollowSaberFirst set to 1.

 

It makes for quite a difference.

 

One hit kills are very possable with those settings. I killed 3 bots in a row, with 1 hit kills, using the rolling stab. I also got killed a couple times by the bot, with a one hit kill. It was using I think the red/heavy stance. It wasn't a DFA, but just a normal chop or side swing. He connected and I went from 100 to 0 hp instantly. I also got a few 1 hit kills without using the rolling stab, just a normal attack with dual sabers.

 

Now admittly, lag will be a factor, but 1 hit kills are completely possible in JA with the saberdamage set to 2.

 

As to the random damage and it maybe caused by lag... This is deffently an issue that needs to be looked into. If it's random due to lag, or part of the code, it should be looked into, because random damage of the type mentioned is just silly.

 

I wouldn't mind random damage of +/- 5hp... But anything more then that simply removes too much skill from the game.

[FK | unnamed]

1 hit kills are more than possible with SDS set at 2, the problem in our game type lies not in the saber damage, it lies in the fact that a 90 mph moving target who can jump 200 feet in the air is somewhat difficult to even hit with a 3 foot glowing rod unless you can stop him.

 

that is really the main issue, there is no way to "stop or drop" a guy other than those staff kicks and those are quite worthless against any player with even 1/2 a brain.

[FurionStormrage]

Originally posted by Vanor

As to the random damage and it maybe caused by lag... This is deffently an issue that needs to be looked into. If it's random due to lag, or part of the code, it should be looked into, because random damage of the type mentioned is just silly.

 

I wouldn't mind random damage of +/- 5hp... But anything more then that simply removes too much skill from the game.

 

And this is exactly why Ghoul2 is disabled or reduced in MP by default. It's because Internet lag is too unpredictable to be absolutely precise with hit detection. When lag is taken out of the picture (as in SP) one-hit kills are not only possible, they happen on a regular basis.

 

If you want to see exactly how good hit detection is without lag go into single player and spawn a few NPCs. Look how quickly you can kill them in one or two hits, even with the single yellow-stance sabre. I've even killed off two dark jedi with ONE slash of a single red-stance sabre because they were both within the hit detection radius (thanks to the sabre-time slow down of a kill, redirecting into the second dark jedi was a trivial exercise ).

[Vanor]

Originally posted by FK | unnamed

that is really the main issue, there is no way to "stop or drop" a guy other than those staff kicks and those are quite worthless against any player with even 1/2 a brain.

 

Yeah I understand that. I was simply posting my experances with SDS set to 2, I was quite surprised at how much difference it made.

[Jello123]

hoho patch is coming, now al can stfu

[mikeyjuan]

<3 jello

 

words outta my mouth

[Ardent]

Originally posted by [div3rse.jello]

hoho patch is coming, now al can stfu

 

he could have done so a while ago...but <3 anyway

[Gabrobot]

So far, it seems this patch is fixing bugs, not changing gameplay. Spider AL, me and others like us, have been against a gameplay altering patch at this time.

[Jello123]

heh im only pissed because al seems to be more interested in dissecting people's posts and arguing with them rather than discussing gameplay

 

dont mind the others though

[ShadowCloak]

well, i dont know why people say that red saber attack is weaker than staff or dual, red is powerful has hell. This one guy i jump and he red slasged my feet and got my health from 100/50 to 35

 

actually i think teh dual and staff is at a disadvantage

[Rad Blackrose]

Originally posted by [div3rse.jello]

heh im only pissed because al seems to be more interested in dissecting people's posts and arguing with them rather than discussing gameplay

 

dont mind the others though

 

Sorry, had to use this:

 

[Spider AL]

Originally posted by Rumor:

 

and al, plaz was referring to full force in jk2.

Plazma? Perhaps you mean that Plazma was referring to FF NG JO when he told me I didn't play it. Heh. I did. If not, I'm afraid I'm confused at your meaning, and could you clarify?

 

Originally posted by Rumor:

 

the problem with jo 1.03 is that it wasn't tested by the PLAYERS. look at many other games out there. they have people actually test the patches before releasing them.

Well that wasn't the PROBLEM with JO 1.03. The problem with it was it was crap. It was crap because it pandered to premature demands for gameplay changes. If there HAD been a public test, one would hope that the whole patch would have been totally rejected by the community. There were almost no gameplay-specific changes that were any good at all in 1.03.

 

Originally posted by Ardent:

 

So you opine. I can respect a person holding a differing opinion. I can't respect someone that seeks to thrust said opinion on everyone else because they're "obviously correct." You've done very little to convince anyone, particularly your opposition, that your opinion is the best one for them.

Oh absolutely those who seek to force THEIR opinions onto others are beneath contempt...

 

Getting the picture? Seeing it coming?

 

I'M not the one who wants premature gameplay changes. I'M not the one who wants their view of what the game should be like to be forced upon ALL players EVERYWHERE. YOU are.

 

YOU are the one who wishes to force your opinion onto others. YOU are therefore the butt of your own attack in this case, you therefore are responsible for a very negative thing: An attempt to prematurely change the gameplay of this game.

 

And please, as if I expected to convince such people as yourself of the tenuousness of your position, and the negative ramifications of your assault upon this game and this community. I've never seen ANYONE convince anyone else of anything online, if they didn't want to be convinced. And brother, you just don't want to be convinced.

 

All the logic of the argument: "This is too soon after the game's release to expect to know every major strategy and technique that will evolve in all the gametypes you're trying to affect over the next couple of months" is lost on you. Despite all the evidence of the pattern of evolution of the previous games I've cited.

 

Is that my fault? Nope. You're just wilfully blind.

 

All the inescapable truth of the statement: "Previous games that have been prematurely gameplay-patched have suffered as a result" is lost on you. Is it my fault that you ignore the history of CS, UT, Tribes and JO among many others? Nope.

 

To be frank, you're just arguing for the sake of it. You can't dispute any of these things I've mentioned, and you haven't even tried, instead resorting to thin, sickly smokescreens, trolling and baseless, unsubstantiated personal attacks.

 

Well done you.

 

Originally posted by Ardent:

 

But you're approaching it with the assumption that you know what's best for us. You've all but said "Shut up and let me shove the right answer down your throat!"

YOU'RE the one trying to warp the whole community with your demands for insta-gameplay-changes. So who's shoving what down whose throat exactly? YOU are trying to shove YOUR idea of what's best for YOU down everyone's throat. Shame on you, forever!

 

Originally posted by Ardent:

 

That's like saying "Look! Dodge's Neon has a problem with its seatbelts! So I can logically assume that all compact cars have problems with their seatbelts!"

Ohhh yes. This is good, you've just admitted that premature patching was extremely bad for many other games in the past, but you've retorted by saying "But it may not be bad for JA this time". Heh heh, forgive me if I don't leap up and down and shout hooray for Ardent's 100% safe course of action.

 

I'm not willing to RISK the probable outcome that a premature patch will ruin the game.

 

You are willing to risk it though. Why? Because you're not enjoying it at the moment, so it wouldn't matter to you if the rest of the community wasn't enjoying it anymore either! You don't give two cents for any portion of the community but your own, do you.

 

Originally posted by Ardent:

 

1.04? 1.04 anyone? Raven has shown that they can and do correct problems created with their patches.

1.03 split the community once again, and drove away many JO players who had bought the game, had started to enjoy it, and then were crapped on by premature-patch demanders like yourself. Did 1.04 fix all that? I think not. Did 1.04 fix the force power nerfs? I think not.

 

What you're saying here is that "Well the gameplay alterations we're demanding may well ruin the game... but if they do then Raven might release another patch later that may fix some of the problems that our alterations created. So that's okay isn't it".

 

Well it's not okay. It's very bad.

 

Originally posted by Ardent:

 

Yes, the Ardent diatribe™ is potent stuff. Made potent because, unlike some diatribes, it's conducted civilly and built on a foundation of rationale that isn't going to fall apart under scrutiny.

Ohh far be it from me to interrupt your musings on how "potent" you are, but screaming unsubstantiated drivel like "U R HYPOCRITE!!!" is hardly civil, nor is it built on any foundation whatsoever. It's just trolling. And it characterises your entire debating style.

 

Originally posted by Ardent:

 

Blah blah blah...semantics, AL. Your request is ultimately selfish because you benefit from it.

The whole community benefits from MY request that YOUR attempt to ruin the game be thwarted. Not selfish, yours is, QED.

 

Originally posted by Ardent:

 

Go ahead? My typos are few and far between and I tend to catch them before anyone else even looks at the thread.

Ooohhh don't tempt me. Hopefully I will resist temptation and not sink to Ardent's level of looking for missing hyphens to bolster his ludicrously crumbling attempt at an argument. Tune in next week to find out, same bat-time, same bat... etc.

 

Originally posted by :

 

Might want to work on your reading comprehension there, AL. But since I'm being civil, I'll help you out: I felt no need to continue quoting you and showing the degradation of your behavior was a trend external of my prodding, as it should have been clear for every reader aside from you under the pressing burden of the evidence presented.

Oh yes, that's VERY civil. Are you sure you're aware of what the word "civil" means? It's very similar to "evil", I suppose, which is seemingly what you have confused it with.

 

As for your "point", wow, you just proved mine. You felt no need to continue quoting me... and yet here you sit, doing it all again. Wow, that wasn't an ego-filled trolling last word at all then, was it! Top stuff!

 

Originally posted by Ardent:

 

We aren't asking for the cvar as a bugfix. Our rhetoric is if you're going to be affecting gameplay anyway, why can't you just add a cvar? No guile in that statement, AL. It's plain as day.

Well that's unusually plain-speaking from you, it makes the response easier:

 

Why can't you just add a cvar? Why can't you just add a death star that players can fly around in blowing up huge chunks of the map? Toggleable, of course.

 

Why can't you? Why WOULD you!

 

A touch extreme perhaps, but the analogy is good.

 

"If you're going to be removing some bugs that affect gameplay Raven, why not port all sorts of things over from JO while you're at it!" There's a world of difference between removing some bugs that may crash the game, cause errors in the game and/or have effects on gameplay that the developers didn't expect,.. and adding new moves to the game. One is warranted, the other is not at this juncture. What you're saying to Raven is, now that you're back at the drawing board briefly, why not REMAKE THE GAME IN OUR IMAGE! RAH!

 

Originally posted by Ardent:

 

I had never denied they were out there, AL.

Considering that for about ten posts your entire argument consisted of "HAH THERE'S ONLY ONE OF YOU AND LOTS OF US JOO DIE DIE DIE HAHAHah!!" I find that statement even more amusing than some of your others.

 

Originally posted by Ardent:

 

...wtf are you smoking? Seriously. It was great in JO, in fact it was quite bluntly the second best, if not the best. No, it was in no way wrong of us to expect it to be so again. There are certain unrealistic expectations, like for instance a game that everyone can be happy with as-is, but expecting a gametype that previously supported a majority of the competitive community to be good again is not an unrealistic expectation.

I smoke fine Cohiba cigars. Firstly, I said it's not currently good in JA. You yourself have been complaining about that for some time now, so I doubt you can debate it. Secondly, kindly rephrase your declaration that NG CTF "was quite bluntly the second best, if not the best." to "NG CTF was in my opinion the second best, if not the best." Tripped over your own factoids there, Ardent. Who was it who said "Your opinion. Please accurately represent it as such"? You betray your affection for NG CTF, which is the sum total of your reason for being here. I know that I think guns FFA could be improved... but I'm not whining about it now. Not yet. Two months and a bit.

 

Thirdly and finally, since JA is a new game every game mode it contains is a game mode that is NEW. That is part of a NEW game, even if the basis for the gametype design isn't very original. So expecting to enjoy NG CTF in JA just because you enjoyed it in JO was obviously unrealistic, as expectations go.

 

Originally posted by Ardent:

 

I suppose when you buy anything, you don't expect it to be useful either? That's unrealistic, AL. To expect someone who is spending good money for a license to a piece of software to be happy with a sub-par product.

Gameplay is nebulous and sometimes it is hard to quantify exactly what makes one game's gameplay good and another's gameplay bad. Thus, creating gameplay is as much an art as it is a craft. When one buys a painting, one naturally wants to look at it first. Likewise with a game, one should play it before one buys it, otherwise one ALWAYS takes the risk that ONE WON'T ENJOY IT. You state that JA is a sub-par product? Please. How many people have had fun with it so far?

 

But there was never any guarantee that you would enjoy JA. So it's not only unrealistic, it's absolutely childish to start stamping your feet and screaming that Raven must alter the game so that you can enjoy it THIS INSTANT.

 

Traj, same response for your post too.

 

Perhaps you're just a product of this new-fangled consumer society... sigh. People want so much for so little, these days. Back in my day, raaah raah raaah, had to eat salt, bread you could use as a doorstop raaah...

 

Originally posted by Ardent:

 

What we want, first and foremost, is cvars to enable ALL of the old-style gameplay. Just not some of it. That is a wholly realistic expectation when it's been categorically demonstrated that the old-style gameplay's code still exists inside JA.

ARgh! You ADMIT it? Wow.

 

Ladies and gentlemen, Ardent admits that he wants JO back.

 

The answer is obvious... go back to JO.

 

And there's a lot of Quake in JA. Should we restore all that, just because it's vestigially attached to the game's engine? Nah.

 

Originally posted by Ardent:

 

Can you empirically prove that statement, or is it more empty Spider AL logic? I can empirically prove that failing to address the concerns of certain cliques within the community will result in their absence in the future.

All you can prove is that failing to address your concerns will result in your absence. I hardly think you can predict the actions of all your friends with 100% certainty. I'm sure one or two NG CTF enthusiasts would continue to play JA even if there were no patch. As for my prediction, it was as I stated, a prediction based on historical data. It's by no means a certainty and I've never claimed such, but it's a probable outcome of the events you're trying to set in motion. As such, risking it is unacceptable.

 

Originally posted by Ardent:

 

Why? Because they took the time to come to LF and register and vote and express their opinion they're suddenly in the wrong?

Why? Because you people have been trawling through wodges of clan forums to find all these poll-voters. Most of them weren't LF members until the minute you asked them to sign this poll, no doubt, and no doubt most of them wouldn't have taken part in the poll UNLESS you asked them. That means that the poll is lopsided as a representation of the Lucasforums members opinion en masse. And as I said, we'll have to go and find all OUR acquaintances to vote on our side too, in order to obtain a balanced view. How tiresome.

 

Originally posted by Gabrobot:

 

So far, it seems this patch is fixing bugs, not changing gameplay. Spider AL, me and others like us, have been against a gameplay altering patch at this time.

Gabrobot SAYS what we're FEELING.

[technobot]

i think Big Gay Al spends WAY too much time on these forums, what do you think?

 

Don't bother replying your Al-ness, you haven't changed, you are now on my (and almost everyone else's) ignore list.

 

Still as gay as ever, have pride Al!