What a rubbish game!!!

[FK | unnamed]

for a game that has been out three weeks dude, the # of people playing it is just plain sad.

[Prime]

Originally posted by FK | unnamed

for a game that has been out three weeks dude, the # of people playing it is just plain sad.

That could be. But for me at least, I don't seem to have any problems finding a game to play in, so I'm happy.

[Andy867]

You know in that sense, we could technically say that

 

Jedi Outcast= Q3TA with engine modifications, additions, and graphics overhaul.

 

So why insult a perfectly good engine that has allowed all of us, you included unnamed, to continue in the Jedi Knight games series, because if it wasn't for Raven, LucasArts probably wouldnt have contracted someone to make something similar to Outcast for at least another 3 or so years... I mean, look how long it was between MOTS and Jedi Outcast... Almost 5 years. That should be a clue right there that without Raven, there probably wouldnt have been Outcast and Academy, so dont go knockin it over the little things were we all should be thankful that Raven gives a rats ass about our video game wants.

[Emon]

You know, if you don't like it, you don't have to play it. And you especially don't have to post here. Threads like this aren't needed.

[FK | unnamed]

You people just don't get it do you?

 

I have stated on many occasions that Outcast was not just a good game, but a revolutionary game.

 

It was the first star wars game to ever get sabers "right".

 

 

That said, can you honestly sit here, and let's cut through all the "fan boy/fluff piece journalism" B.S. for a second, and say that JA is anything other than an attempt to make a quick buck off star wars fans?

 

It's the same game as JO, a few engine tweaks and a graphical overhaul may convince some people that "it is an entirely new game" but those people are pretty damn easy to sell anything to. How did it go? "There's one born every minute?"

 

 

 

And that is exactly where my problem lies, if it was an entirely new game I would gladly cut them slack.

 

Hell, I never once complained about the bugs in JO when it came out.

 

JO was a major leap from jk1, this was untested technology and an untested entirely *new game.

 

 

JA is the same damn thing, and they have had over a *year to fix a lot of the bugs that are in this game because the *exact same bugs were in JO.

 

Do you really think I'm the only person who feels this game was a 1/2 ass rush job?

 

Just look around your own forums.

 

Look at all the negative/indifferent feedback this game has gotten, both from users and reviews.

 

It was a sloppy, untested, rushed release, and the "we did not have enough time" excuse is a load of crap.

 

The game was built right off of the predecessor and it has been around for a year and a half now.

 

 

Why did it have to be out in September?

 

I'll let you figure that one out, but if anyone needs help it has something to do with a little game called Halo and this little game called Half-Life 2 that was supposed to be released at the end of September.

 

 

You people may have lower standards in regards to consumer products, but I don’t.

 

Be it a 49.99 game or a 49,000.00 car, if people hand over their money and never demand a better quality of product and gladly pay for sub standard quality merchandise, do you really think there will be a lot of money invested by the manufactures of said products to increase the quality of their merchandise?

 

I’ve worked in big business around 10 years now, and I can honestly assure you, based on my personal experience, that if some dimwit is perfectly willing to hand you his hard earned cash for a lump of turds, no company is going to cut into their profit margin just to make a better quality turd.

[FK | unnamed]

Originally posted by Emon

You know, if you don't like it, you don't have to play it. And you especially don't have to post here. Threads like this aren't needed.

 

Yeah so let's all sit here and giggle like little school girls and bow to the mighty gods who bless us by taking our money in exchange for their blessed products.

 

And let's all write fluff piece reviews; no matter how flawed the product is.

 

Let’s never hold any company up to any standards of quality control.

 

Let’s just gladly fork over our money for anything that is tossed our way.

 

I mean seriously, have any of you ever had real world experience in running a business that directly manufactures a product or provides a unique service?

 

If any of you did you would understand the basic way business works.

 

Your core goal is put out said product/service and cut as many corners as possible to save production/development/overhead expenses.

 

If said customers do not buy your product for the sole reason that they are dissatisfied with the quality of the product/service (note I said sole reason, I'm not talking about poor marketing, over saturation of the product etc.) your only option is to increase the quality of that product.

 

Consumers today simply do not hold the providers of goods and services up any level of standards like they did many years ago.

 

And if no one points out the flaws, and people don’t give it the justifiable indifferent/bad reviews it deserves, and people never speak up, do you think anything will ever get fixed, or better yet, do you think a higher quality of product will land in your lap next time?

 

 

You people want to sit here like sheep and go “baaah baaah gimme star wars baaah baaah any star wars is good just gimme star wars baah baaah”

 

Go ahead, those of us who have a higher quality of taste and standards in regards to the things we purchase will have more than enough back bone to speak up for you people.

 

 

But I know this is going to fly right over most of your heads.

 

And despite the fact that I’m not sitting here saying things like “Raven sucks” that is how most of you knee jerk reaction types with low attention spans will read it.

 

So yes, I am “basing Raven” and no I am not just doing what many paying customers who are dissatisfied with a product, do throughout the global consumer market, I’m not trying to get a higher quality of standards implemented from the people who take our money to make these games.

 

 

 

 

[Emon]

Eh, I wasn't talking about you, but if you feel so cheated, you can always take it back. Sitting here and talking about how much you dislike it or parts of it isn't going to make it any better.

[FK | unnamed]

patches come when people point out problems, it's a universal trend in the gaming business, pure and simple.

 

Game/software patching is a simple cost effective way to keep the consumers happy and get them to be returning customers.

 

It’s a hell of a lot easier and cheaper than putting out an updated retail release.

 

Id wants you to buy Quake 4, Valve wants you to buy HL2, so if they keep the customers who are playing Quake 3 and HL happy, those customers, for the most part will be returning customers.

 

 

 

games with flaws can be easily fixed with patches, hence the reason so many of us came here to voice our opinions...

 

and the reason it is still being brought up is we either want some type of official word on a patch and it's content or we want the SDK released so we can fix it ourselves.

[Andy867]

But the problem is unnamed, is that with Jedi Academy, they were able to use what worked and fine tweak it due to the majority of what the fans wanted, whereas going to a new engine for a standalone sequel would have been yet another test run for Raven developers, in which it would take awhile before programmers, mappers, coders and modellers would be able to further understand the game engine physics and tweak it.. So by going with the same engine, but heavily modifying it and adding new features of their own, they were able to go with the options that they felt the community would want and some new ideas. so if the majority dictated dual sabers and a saberstaff for MP and SP, they implemented it using their past experience, although there really wasnt much to go on since Jedi Outcast didnt have dual sabers by default, and to do deal with the comprising and balancing that along with the saberstaff and solo saber made it a challenge. And if Raven had gone to a new game engine, it probably would have been another year at least before LucasArts would approve of it being in a polished state. So if anything, give lucasarts a ring and let them know your concerns, Because I am sure Raven wished they did have more time to fine-tune the settings and include more things, but in order to get it into the polished state that LucasArts dictated for a Fall release, they had to cut back on some things that they wouldnt have done otherwise.

 

 

But be rest assured that if Raven is contracted for another Jedi game, it probably wont be until much after Q1 of 2005, because it has been said by some at Raven in interviews that Academy is the last Jedi Knight game that they will be doing on the Quake 3 Team Arena engine. Which engine they will go on from there is uncertain, but a lot of people who know a lot of game engine features and capabilities have asked for the UT2k3/UT2k4 engine, as well as the FarCry engine from some of the l33t modders of the community.

[FK | unnamed]

I know all about cutting corners in business, it's what I have done for a living for almost the last ten years.

 

I have 0, yes 0 problem with them recycling the JO engine/game.

 

JO was a great game and I would gladly hand over my money for "more of the same".

 

 

Where my problem lies Andy, is that the flaws are not major issues that typically arise in retail games, they are those minor inexcusable things that should have been corrected before the game was released.

 

Invisible models?

 

That was a screw up they made over a year and a half ago in JO.

 

Would it have taken that much time to just do a quick check and see if there were any models that should not be accessible in MP?

 

The rocket bug?

The one hit kill kick and one hit kill lightning bug?

 

The erratic hit detection?

 

 

These are things that players found *minutes after installing the game.

 

 

 

Have you ever bought a new car Andy?

 

Go to a dealership, finance the vehicle, cut a check for your down payment and then as you get in it to drive it off the lot, have the rear view mirror fall off and hit you in the head when you shut the door.

 

You think most people will just say "oh well, it's only 50 grand I can just glue it back on".

 

 

Simple, quality control. If you let the "little things" slide, they never get taken care of.

 

 

 

Now you say, why come here to voice these complaints?

 

Look at it like this:

 

You go to Burger king and the burger is raw meat, they don’t even cook it.

 

A week later you go back and it’s the same deal.

 

You can:

 

Call the manager/company hot line, get blown off and have nothing done to rectify the problem.

 

Or

 

You can contact your local news station, and when they run a story on the 10:00 news about a restaurant serving people raw meat, which do you think will rectify the problem faster?

 

These forums are just that, a place where both players (and potential new customers) and the devs come to see what people are saying about the game.

 

No one wanted all of the negative feedback JO was getting back in the day, so they authorized those two patches.

 

I don’t agree with all of the patch content, but that is not the point I’m trying to make.

 

Bad reviews on behalf of the people playing the game will lead to only two things:

 

A shortage of returning customers.

 

Possible lost sales from potential new customers.

 

No one wants that, so a good idea would be????

 

Fix the product flaws, make people happy and keep your returning customers and let their positive reviews help influence the new ones.

 

See how simple it is?

[Kurgan]

You guys both make good points.

 

Yes, there is a place for "negative feedback" (I prefer constructive criticism myself of course, since not everyone to bashes Raven has a point, and not everyone who bashes the game does it because of bugs that can be fixed easily).

 

And yes, Raven was limited by what LA let them do within the time frame of doing a liscensed game through them, so they can't share all the blame.

 

 

Nobody is stopping people from doing either of the following. Emon expressed his opinion and others expressed their's.

 

So somebody might want to cuss at Raven because they don't like the color of Jaden's boots, that's just silly.

 

And it is hard for them to make a decision though when you have a third of the people saying "Feature X sucks change it to Y!" another third saying "Feature X sucks, change it to Z!" and another third saying "Feature X rules, if you change it, it will suck!"

 

Another person may critique Raven's programming by pointing out a genuine exploit in the game (in which case they should send in the bug report rather than just generically swear at them or something).

 

And people who object to the excessive bashing Raven has recieved lately aren't necessarily Star Wars fanboys either.

 

I am sick of the bashing and I hate most of the Star Wars games ever made (or consider them mediocre). I'm a fan, but not a fanboy. There's a difference...

 

Bashing doesn't accomplish anything, pointing out bugs and constructive criticism can and that's what I try to encourage.

 

 

All we ask of people is that they express their views in a mature and civilized fashion. Not only will you look smarter, you may even get more people to listen to you!

[KaiaSowapit]

I don't have a problem with anyone criticizing the game or using these forums to do so, so long as they do it in a relatively mature, thoughtful way and understand the difference between opinion and indisputable bugs.

 

For example, the issue with the Master Server listing and most of us with legitimate retail copies of the game only being able to see about a dozen or so MP servers offered online, THAT is a bug. Not caring for Tavion's latest hair style or the damage scaling of red dfa, that's a matter of opinion.

 

I'm not saying one is more significant than the other; just appreciate that there's a difference.

 

IMHO, Raven/LucasArts will best serve its customer base if they focus on the less subjective matters first and foremost in any potential fix/patch.

[FK | unnamed]

Originally posted by KaiaSowapit

I don't have a problem with anyone criticizing the game or using these forums to do so, so long as they do it in a relatively mature, thoughtful way and understand the difference between opinion and indisputable bugs.

 

For example, the issue with the Master Server listing and most of us with legitimate retail copies of the game only being able to see about a dozen or so MP servers offered online, THAT is a bug. Not caring for Tavion's latest hair style or the damage scaling of red dfa, that's a matter of opinion.

 

I'm not saying one is more significant than the other; just appreciate that there's a difference.

 

IMHO, Raven/LucasArts will best serve its customer base if they focus on the less subjective matters first and foremost in any potential fix/patch.

 

Yes, but the same level of civility needs to be upheld by the people who disagree with the people who take issues with this game.

 

I'm not sitting here going <fornicate> Raven, they suck! so if certain people would focus more on the content of the things people like myself are saying, rather than just trying to start arguments with the individuals saying them, things would be much more civil around here.

 

Like I said, we are not here to argue or anger anyone, we have issues with this release, we would like them addressed, and we know this is a vessel that occupies the attention of those who can address them.

 

But certain individuals here, although very limited in numbers, seem to only want to argue with people for the sole sake of arguing.

 

It gets frustrating having to deal with these narrow minded individuals and hence, tempers flare after a while.

 

None of that ^ was directed at you, it was just a generalization.

 

 

And yes I do agree with what you say about the serious problems taking the forefront in patch priority.

 

The master list issue is without a doubt the #1 concern.

 

The actual game play bugs like the random 1 hit kill kicks are also high on the list.

 

When you get into game play issues, rather than sit here and argue all day if things like the double tap kick should be brought back, a simple and easy solution would be to put the option for it as a server console cvar.

 

Those servers that want it are happy, those servers that don’t are happy.

[StormHammer]

Oh well. I guess I should have looked into this thread sooner, because now a Force Long Post is unavoidable in light of the many replies. Hold onto your pantyhose...

 

Originally posted by Ionio

I know i'll get flamed for this but I don't think JA is anywhere near as good as JK2. Ok it has some nice new moves and rancors, but JK2 had a better story, better designed levels. Considering that JK2 is 18 months old JA just hasn't got enough to offer.

 

Now, in an overall sense, I can see where you are coming from, and I am inclined to agree to an extent.

 

The storyline in JK2 did seem to have a more cohesive plot, and a greater sense of purpose, I agree. But even JK2 was flawed, and in my view, did not quite measure up to the compelling plot of the original Jedi Knight. Although the 'choose a mission' format for JA was very welcome, as I've stated before, I think they attempted to do too much with it. By trying to cover all the bases, and offer a wider variety of locations and scenarios, it became a bit of a 'Jack of all trades and master of none'. That's not to say it was inherently 'rubbish' - far from it. However, it certainly did not match up to it's obvious potential. The sub-plots could have been far better developed, each of the choosable missions could have had 2 or 3 levels to them to make them longer (like the core missions, which worked far better IMHO), and far more elements of the story itself could have been available as 'clues' that you discover in the levels, rather the 'talking heads' force-feeding you plot devices at the beginning and end of each mission. This sense of 'discovery' was sadly lacking, and I think JA is a poorer game for it.

 

The other aspect lacking in the storyline of JA is a solid background to the central character of Jaden Korr, to put that character in a better perspective. In Jedi Knight, especially, you are introduced early on to the driving force behind Kyle's motivations, by learning about more of his past, and how it will affect his future. By carrying around some emotional baggage that ties in to the existing narrative, it gives a better basis for the overarching plot. All we learn about Jaden is that he/she constructed a lightsaber, with no explanation as to why, when, and why this is actually relevant. There basically is no background to the character apart from what you might want to imagine. That's all very well from an RPG stand-point - but JA is not an RPG by any stretch of the imagination, and as such, the central character should have been properly developed.

As for level design - I think some people too readily dismiss some of the better level design in JK2. By the same token, some are too ready to dismiss the better level design in JA. The simple fact is that both games had some good and some bad level design. Both suffer from inherent linearity and 'locked door' syndrome. I never had a problem with the puzzles in Jedi Outcast, to be honest - but there were occasions when the design itself stretched credibility past the breaking point. The infamous 'Rubik's cube' puzzle on the Doomgiver, for example, was just plain silly. I also disliked the cylindrical area where there was only one 'tram' thing which gets blown up half-way around. The Nar Shadaa level was also memorable for the fact that you could see the whole level, and just worked your way around it. It didn't have the meandering feel of a 'city' that JK had (and JK suffered from the same kind of linearity, don't get me wrong).

 

In JA, Coruscant reminds me very much of JK2's Nar Shadaa - you can basically see the whole map again, and it all seems very confined and linear. By contrast, I think the level with the Sandcrawler was very well done.

 

Acceptable level design, I guess, is largely a matter of preference. Personally, I think a lot of developers could learn some great lessons by looking at games like Deus Ex, and at least attempting a more open feel, and multiple pathways to objectives. But that's just me. I can only hope that the JK series at least starts to move away from the totally linear aspect of it's level design - or at least cleverly disguises it's inherent linearity.

 

Multiplayer is crap, the 2 new modes become boring very quickly.

 

I disagree on this point. I think MP is a great blast, and I think Siege is a great game mode. The only problem with it is there are only 3 maps/scenarios to play in. However, these scenarios are large enough, and with enough objectives, to keep you busy. The Desert map especially is better in the context of providing you with a lot of options about which pathway you take to reach your objective. And you are not tied in to a linear goal progression, really, because you can choose which crystal to go for first, which droid part to take, which station to take down. This flexibility means that the defenders cannot make any assumptions about which areas to cover first - and the gameplay can at times feel like a tug of war.

 

As for Power Duel, I have not played it extensively, but the Duels I have played were good. It seems quite well balanced, and the single opponent is not as easy to take down as their situation might dictate. I do, however, think that the Power Duel could have been extended to include 2v2, 3v2 and 3v3 matches. Although this is possible via Team FFA, it would have suited Power Duel mode more easily, I think.

 

...and the acting is terrible. Jaden (male especially) sounds like a monotonous, broken, answering machine. Alora - she might as well just be another reborn. Tavion - her hairs even worse than before.

 

The male actor for Jaden was a little stilted, I agree, but I don't think it was quite as bad as you make out. The female actor for Jaden did seem a lot better though, with more inflection in her voice according to each situation.

 

As for Alora, I agree that she could have been developed more. She was just starting to get interesting before her untimely demise. However, I disagree that she could be considered 'just another reborn'. She needed more screen-time...and a bit of a background to her character. Again, it comes back to the fact that characterisation within the game was poor overall. Rosh was probably one of the better developed characters, in that you grow to dislike him, so I have to applaud Raven in making him come across as such a pain in the butt (props to the voice actor too).

 

As for Tavion - I saw nothing wrong with her at all. The 'costume' was fine, and the acting was okay too. It helped that she had a bit of a 'background' established in Jedi Outcast - although again, you feel as if you don't know enough about the character overall, because the depth is lacking. If you take Darth Vader as the classic example, you have the imposing presence and bearing, the no nonsense attitude in dealing with problems (grip people you don't like, for example), the fact that you've butchered hundreds or thousands of Jedi, etc. The evil aspect of the character is imparted over time by reflection on their past actions, and seeing their present actions in progress.

 

In a way, this is where Jedi Outcast fared better than Jedi Academy. You saw the interaction of the 'enemies' more - Tavion and Desann, Galak Fyarr, etc... You saw what they were up to, the decisions they were making, and so you had a better context when it came to fighting them. As I said before, Tavion and Alora didn't get enough screen time away from interactions with your character.

 

The AI is terrible, stormtroopers just stand and shoot, in JK2 they moved more.

 

Again, I recognise some of the parts where you may have encountered this. In parts, I also thought the Stormies (and other enemies) did not move around enough. In other parts, they did move around and presented more of a challenge. The Noghri, for example, hardly moved at all. The enemies that I remember moving around a lot were the cultists, the sandpeople, the mercs, and the jet-pack troopers - once they were triggered. And that was one of the problems, in my view. Some enemies simply didn't seem to react until you entered their 'cone of influence' - except snipers, who can smell you a mile off and start stripping you of shields and health. But yes, on the whole, I would tend to agree that there were not quite as many Stormies moving around in JA in comparison to JO. Also, in terms of AI, it seemed a bit ridiculous that some enemies would simply stand there continually shooting at you - when you could deflect all of their shots back at them. It would have been more 'realistic' (if you want to use that term) for them to give up halfway through and run for reinforcements - or switch to other tactics.

 

Tactics is one of the areas where the game is let down, I think. The majority of enemies seem to be 'stuck' with a particular weapon, and in light of the fact that your own character can carry around quite a selection, it would have been more realistic if an enemy switched to TD's to take you out when they realised their blaster-fire was accomplishing little against your lightsaber. In those terms, the AI is very dumb indeed. I didn't rely exclusively on the lightsaber in the game - so why should the enemies rely exclusively on blasters that are easily deflected?

 

The graphics are marginally better, although the concussion rifle looks stupid.

 

The graphics are definitely an improvement over JO, both in terms of polygons used to create the levels, and the variety of textures themselves. I was glad to see the return of the lightsabers casting light on the walls in dark areas, and the spruced-up Force power effects were also very noticeable. I think Raven achieved a great deal in terms of graphics considering the base engine with which they had to work. In my view, they've done more with the Q3 tech than a lot of other game developers using it, and so I applaud them for managing to 'tweak it to hell and back'.

 

The dual and staff sabers are good, but not enough to save the other aspects of the game.

 

Yes, it is clear the amount of effort that went into the lightsaber combat this time around - and perhaps it was, indeed, detrimental to some other aspects of the game. Personally, I didn't have a problem with the focus on lightsaber and Force powers, because it was more in keeping with the context of being a 'Jedi'. I don't think the other aspects of the game necessarily need 'saving'...but in my view there is certainly room for improvement, particularly in the 'tiered' missions. Overall, I think the game is enjoyable, from both an SP and MP perspective, and it could have been a 'great' game with some extra time and effort. The bugs and other perceived flaws are regrettable to see, and I do feel that more time (and play-testing to destruction) should be given to the development of these games.

 

 

Originally posted by bodstevens

I agree with most said. mp is crap i had high hopes for siege (ive played alot of tow for moh) but the force drain on moves, no option for jedi only siege, stuck in place during kata/specials, weak sabers, no kick or slow daown move for s/o CTF ( none is playing s/o ctf), sucky levels and ugly hilts and online servers have awful ping times all other games i play like bf1942sw all have sweet pings but ja have crappy pings....

 

Heh...what a rush. It's almost hard to understand what you're saying. Almost. Anyway, the whole idea behind Siege is to add more variety in terms of classes, and what you can actually do with them. Perhaps Siege is not the 'best' objective-based game mode out there when compared to other games with similar game-types. However, it's certainly nice to see it make an appearance at last in a Star Wars context. It's a dream come true for many players, and now the basic ground-rules and concepts have been established, there is plenty of scope for further development. As Kurgan said earlier, there is a 'Jedi only' Siege map in Korriban, so maybe, for some reason, you haven't got to play that yet. It certainly alters the dynamic of the gameplay. Indeed, I'd have to say that each of the three Siege scenarios presented require different tactics and strategies in order to succeed. Tying down 'tweaked' classes for each of the levels makes each one more interesting and they all present different challenges, and different ways for teams to work together. I can certainly see the wealth of effort that Raven invested into the Siege mode, and from all the matches I've played so far, it seems very balanced and great fun to play.

 

As for awful ping times on servers - that may be partly due to the netcode, but there are so many other factors to consider, including how clear your line connection is, other people's pings impacting server performance, the location of the server you're connecting to... The best advice is to shop around for a server where you do get acceptable pings. You can't land the entire blame for that at Raven's door - though I'm sure some tweaking of the netcode could resolve some of the issues.

 

As for being stuck in place to perform katas...as others have already stated, you can most certainly turn around while performing them - and in some your character steps forward while swinging. I've certainly seen this when dueling, so I don't know where you get that notion from.

 

The lightsaber damage can easily be altered through cvars...and it is adjusted for each game type anyway. It's possible to get one-hit kills with them too, so I can't exactly see why you claim they are 'weak'. Considering there is also location-based damage implemented, you have to pick the right spot to hit to do more damage - the head especially is more likely to give you a one-hit-kill.

 

It makes sense to me for some of the 'special' moves to drain Force power too. Maybe it could be tweaked slightly to not drain as much, but on the other hand, I can't say I've experienced any real problems so far. I've not had many FF duels yet...so maybe my view would change slightly in light of the 'draining' that can go on.

 

I've played sp a few times through its ok bit better than jo levs but still kinda boring the 3rd time...and no npc's.... damn jk1 had civilians you could help made you feel more jedi like...

 

Now there I have to agree with you. Although there were some NPCs in JA (like Jawas, prisoners, and droids), it still does not seem as compelling as rescuing the civilians seen in JK1. I've played other games where NPCs were used very effectively, so it's sad to see this series still has not implemented better NPC support. Play No One Lives Forever (the hotel level), play Mace Griffin:Bounty Hunter (the opening level), and others. When neutral NPCs are factored in, whom you have to protect, it can alter the gameplay dynamic quite radically. In JK1 (playing Light side), I felt compelled to stand in front of the 'civilians' and take extra damage in order to protect them. So that is certainly a major area where JA and JO alike did not go far enough. Towns and cities should be populated by 'neutral' characters, who react realistically to events as they transpire. Admittedly, not all levels should have them - but by the same token, they should appear a great deal more often than just a few specific levels.

 

 

Originally posted by Master William

About the MP maps, they truly suck. The old ones were way better. The only map I like is Vjun Sentinel (mp/ffa1)

 

Out of all the levels in MP, across all the game types, you only like one? You seem to be very hard to please indeed. Personally, I do think the FFA maps in particular in JA do not contribute to the 'tighter' gameplay of the JK2 FFA maps. I think a few of the FFA maps are probably a little too big - especially when there are not many players on them (Korriban, Tatooine and Rift). The gameflow is not as tight, which has led to a few 'congregation' points on those maps where most of the action takes place - and then a lot of winding corridors and 'filler' space. Bigger is not always better, although these maps work much better with 16-32 players on them. As for the Duel maps, they all seem fine to me. Some are a bit basic, and the Yavin one is a little too big (although it is more aesthetically pleasing and far better designed), but at the end of the day they fulfill the basic needs of two or three people duking it out. I've not really played CTF in JA yet, so I can't really comment on the gameflow there.

 

Originally posted by anonymous4

stormtrooper's voice is too static-y and i can barely listen to what theyre saying.

 

I didn't have a problem listening to what the Stormies were saying, except when my lightsabers were lit and I was not close enough. Extinguishing the lightsabers certainly helped by removing some 'background noise'. Otherwise the voices were just like in JO, so I don't see the problem.

 

Originally posted by Kurgan

JA has some flaws that JK2 seemed to avoid, for example the bot support has a lot more quirks in it (especially on a map like Vjun... or in CTF, or in Siege they simply aren't there, no waypoints).

 

Yes, this is one area where JA has definitely dropped the ball since it's predecessor. I don't know whether the problem is the 'size' of the maps, or simply bad waypoint management, but the bots are definitely not as good at navigating the maps. I remember starting up a Solo Duel game with some bots - and I sat for 15 minutes watching two bots running back and for in a continuous loop, without even getting close to each other. It almost became a virtual game of peek-a-boo, as one of them kept hiding behind a rock (this was the Hoth Duel map, BTW). Of course, I had to stop the game because it was going nowhere. It's simply not as 'fun' dueling or fighting the bots this time around, whereas I spent many hours fighting them in JO. The flaws in their behaviour are more noticeable if you set up a game and simply join as a spectator - and switch between all the bots in turn. Some get stuck running on the spot, and others run around in continuous circles, coming close to another bot but not attacking - just running backwards to get away.

 

When I then play a game like UT2K3, the bot AI in that game shines through. They never get stuck, they're always on the move, and they can be tough on the higher settings. I think it's time to give the bot support in JA a serious revamp. And yes, I agree that it would be nice to have some intelligent bots to practice against in the Siege maps.

 

The NG FF CTF elite thing rears its ugly head. Hey, I am trying to help you guys by suggesting solutions. Check the "Idea: How to Fix Sabers Only CTF.." thread (think it got pushed to page 2).

 

If that's all that's stopping you from liking JA, why don't you make a mod that puts flip kicks from JA single player into MP? Problem solved.

 

I think this is probably a case where any solutions offered are going to get shot down for some reason or another. Those playing this particular game type do not seem to be very receptive to any ideas other than their own, unfortunately. I think you offered up some good solutions - especially with Amidala's suggestions as well - and as you say, there is always the opportunity to develop a mod that does exactly what this faction of the community wants. Whether or not all players of the game-type can agree on a common set of principles and parameters for such a mod is something else entirely.

 

What SP pc game these days is fun playing over and over again? Most people will play a game through once (if they finish it at all), maybe twice if it's really good (play it on easy the first time, hard the second time or use cheats to mess around) or has multiple endings. MP is what's designed for multiple plays.

 

Actually, you'd be surprised. If the SP part of a game is good enough, and has a lot of options built in, then it can be very replayable. I've forgotten how many times I played through JK's SP campaign, trying it in first person, 3rd person, saber/Force, guns, light side, Dark side. I think JA certainly sees a return to this kind of flexibility. I've already played it through from start to finish twice. I'll no doubt do so again using slightly different parameters. And like in JO, there are some levels in particular that I can easily revisit time and time again. I remember in JO I kept loading up the 'cantina' and simply playing around fighting all the bad guys, practicing different moves and tactics for saber combat.

 

Having said all that, I tend to agree that MP can offer a great deal more replayability, because there's nothing quite like matching your skill against that of another player (and I am just an average player).

 

But to bash it and act like JK2 was far superior I think reeks of over-nostaligic hubris about that game. If you liked the storyline better or the old maps better, that's fine (and of course as pointed out you can use all the old maps in the new game, some tweaking still required, though considering the mapping tools were just released, that should be far easier very soon)...

 

Personally, I prefer JO SP over JA SP...but that, as you say, is just a matter of taste. Everyone has their own preferences, and it is pointless 'trashing' another game simply because it fails to achieve the goals you set for it yourself. I still find JA enjoyable...others don't. For those others, it's unfortunate you don't like the game at all, but there's sometimes the option of returning it and getting a refund, and simply replaying the game you did enjoy (JO). Game developers cannot please everyone all of the time, because there are such wide-ranging tastes and differeing views on what makes a good game.

 

Originally posted by Greymon

1)JA requires absolutely no brain power to play through. Not a single thing worth being called a puzzle.

 

Like me, you probably did not mind the puzzles in JO. A large number of other people did, and constantly complained about them, or needed a lot of help with them. I remember all too well the number of threads that sprouted up after JO's release on these boards, pleading for help with the same few puzzles. But then, JA has not been all that different. People still got 'stuck' in some places - and I think I may have stumbled on a contributing factor. The first time I installed JA, for some reason the ForceHint Cursor did not kick in at all in any of the levels. The ForceHint was actually turned off by default - and so I did find it tricky at times to work out what to do, because I didn't have a hint about what items I could use with the Force. I managed to plough through the game regardless, though. I played through the second time after having enabled it, and it was easier because the Force Hints were there. If other people have experienced the same problem, I would surely like to hear about it. And just to test that it wasn't a fluke - I've since uninstalled and reinstalled JA, and it did exactly the same thing. The ForceHint cursor was turned off by default.

 

Anyway, there were some puzzles in JA - just not as extensive or as tricky as those found in JO. The only one I found tedious in JO was the Doomgiver one. I would have preferred to see a few more 'environmental' puzzles in JA, but you can't have everything.

 

2)JA is too short. It definitely took longer to finish JO (though that was a short game as well.)

 

It took me 20 hours to complete JA the first time through, on Jedi Knight difficulty and playing Light Side (which is marginally more difficult than Dark Side). I find that to be an acceptable length for a game, especially in light of experiences like Unreal 2 (which took me about 9 hours to complete), Max Payne (8-9 hours), Elite Force (10 hours). I call those short games. Any game that offers me 20 hours of gameplay is what I would term a 'standard' length for an FPS. Other FPS titles like Unreal and Deus Ex took me considerably longer - and I prefer longer games.

 

3)Rosh, aka Darth Jar Jar.

 

He was designed so you wouldn't like him. If you didn't like him, then Raven succeeded admirably with his design and characterisation. Nuff said.

 

4)As someone else stated above, the voice acting in JA blows. It makes the acting from the movies look good.

 

The acting in the movies was good, IMHO. And I disagree that all of the voice acting blows in JA. The only one that stands out that could have done with more work was the male 'Jaden' voice. Other than that, the main characters were well-acted throughout. As for the 'clone' enemies - what do you expect, except some throwaway lines?

 

5)The story is incoherent. There's no sense of flow or consistency. Plot is barely present. And when it is it makes no sense. It's a collection of user made maps thrown into the guise of an official game.

 

Here I tend to agree - for the reasons I stated earlier in this post. It's er...up there somewhere.

 

6)Graphical glitches and horrible animations.

 

I found the animations perfectly acceptable - and a damned sight better than some other games which are stilted by comparison. As for the graphical glitches, those are partly due to bugs and partly due to incompatibilities with video card drivers. ATI is the main culprit here...but then their drivers have always had issues. On my PC at least.

 

7)The swoop map for one. Anyone else notice that if you dont ride on a swoop bike, suddenly you're surrounded by 10 bikers trying to ram you. It doesn't matter if you're standing against a stone wall, they'll still ram you...and they dont die from it. And thats only one of the AI bugs on that map. Even worse than trip is that Byss map....not a damn thing on that map made any sense. I'm not going to break down all the stupidity in that one but it makes the doomgiver map from JO look like a work of art. The only thing about JA sp maps is they are better looking than JO maps. But better looknig doesn't make them better.

 

Got to disagree here. I don't think any level in any game can get quite as bad as the Doomgiver puzzle. I thought the swoop level design was fine - and it made sense for the swoop riders to run you down and ram you if you got off your own swoop. The only couple of issues I had with that level were sometimes I'd go zooming up a mountain and fly a ridiculous distance through the air - across half the map - and during one of these escapades, I actually ended up on the other side of the building where you start - facing a locked door. So I had to reload. They should have put a 'ceiling' on that map, so that you couldn't go above a certain height.

 

As for Byss - and the Star Destroyer - it actually felt more like a ship to me. No massive unfilled spaces in the middle of it - which made absolutely no sense aboard the Doomgiver. It's ludicrous to waste that amount of space inside a spaceship, where I would imagine space would have to be optimised. So the Byss level actually felt tighter and better defined to me. I felt as if I was aboard a spaceship.

 

8)The AI is horrible. Read what I said about the swoops. There's worse than just that. How about rancors reaching through walls or reborn suicide swan diving off high places...

 

I already talked about AI earlier on. As far as the Rancor reaching through walls - never saw that one. Didn't happen at any time during the game when I played it. And cultists falling to their doom? Well...that actually made me laugh. They spout all the stuff they're going to do to you, and then step (or jump) off into oblivion. It made sense in some places - even the best Dark Jedi can sometimes lose their footing. So it made them a little more credible and fallible...and human, to make such a stupid error.

 

9)I like the JO tavion better.

 

I prefer JA's Tavion.

 

10)The boss fights in JA blow. The first boss fight was such a drag. I was looknig forward to a spectacular saber fight..not a nintendo game style "jump forward attack, wait for enemy move, dodge simplistic enemy attack pattern, jump forward attack, rinse, repeat." The second fight was slightly better for the light side. The dark side final was decent but not as good as the JO boss fight.

 

I found the final boss fights (both Dark and Light) to be much better than the duel with Desann. For whatever reason, they took me longer to complete, and I had a better sense of satisfaction afterwards. I enjoyed both encounters with Alora (although the second encounter could have been better), and the fight with Rosh was quite challenging the first time through. But each to their own, I guess. Sorry you didn't enjoy them.

 

 

Originally posted by Syzerian

the good thing about JO is that every force power had its part in sp like some bits u would have to mind trick certain people to get them to open doors but in JA mind trick is just a niffty but useful trick to use on those cuncussion cannon firing big robot thingys then stab them to bits

 

I tend to agree. Some of the Force powers this time around just seemed a little 'redundant' - Mind Trick being one of them in the context you mention. The level design and situations simply did not lend itself to using this power effectively, except to trick other enemies into 'helping' you in certain places. Certainly, trying to use Mind Trick to 'sneak' past enemies was flawed. I tried it on the Sandcrawler level...and I just ended up with a Tusken army hot on my heels when the effects wore off. Needless to say that was an interesting battle.

 

also its extremly annoying when u r in a saber lock with a dueler and they throw their saber and kill u when u only have lvl 2 push and cant break the saber lock

 

Then use level 3 push. I don't see the problem. More often than not, if anyone wins a saberlock with any saber, they can kill you. That's the whole idea.

 

Originally posted by Aryyn

You guys have to give MP a chance to grow and it will most certainly crush JO in every aspect.

 

Heh...nice to see an optimistic view, although perhaps it's a little over-zealous. I do certainly think JA's MP has a lot of potential, especially in terms of the Siege mode. I do think that FFa maps need to be tighter designs with better gameflow, like JO's. The problem I can see with FFA maps so far is their larger size and 'looser' design. Hopefully, as you say, the mod community can develop some 'tighter' levels to mess around in.

 

Originally posted by Jahs

But, when I go onto a JA dueling server, and get my arse handed by some new kid who presses and holds attack, I don't feel very jedi-like. I don't know if this can be changed by console commands, but until I do, with the dual and doublebladed sabers, JO's mp is better than JA's.

 

So you're complaining that the playing field has been leveled a bit? Now place yourself in the seat of the new kid in JO, going up against a skilled player. Guess what? He gets his butt handed to him over and over and over again...and probably gets insulted for being a 'n00b' into the bargain. I don't know about you...but that doesn't sound like a great deal of fun to me. So I have no problem whatever with people using Dual Sabers, Saberstaff or Single Saber. I use all three myself - although I prefer Dual sabers. And no...before you comment...I don't just press attack and whirl around like a retarded bunny on speed. I time my attacks, and use the moves that I think will do the most damage given an opening. Yes, there are people who just mash the attack button constantly - but to be frank, we probably all started that way in the very beginning, until we started to 'learn' the game. Give the new players a break, and accept defeat without complaining about being 'lamed'. I've duelled several 'skilled' players online, and no matter what saberstyle I use, I can get my butt handed to me very easily. I consider myself an 'average' player. The new saber combat is largely about timing attacks and perfecting evasion from counter-attacks.

 

Originally posted by KaiaSowapit

Personally, I celebrate the day ffa_bespin is eradicated from memory.

 

Academy's maps are a quantum leap improvement. Better architecture, better lighting, better texture... heck if nothing else they're just plain BIGGER.

 

As I stated above, biggerisn't necessarily better. I think the gameflow, especially on the FFA maps for JA, is 'looser' than that for the maps in JO. ffa_bespin is actually a good example of a map with proper gameflow. The bots never got stuck on that level, and even when I played it online, everyone used every part of that map to fight in. Now when I play the JA FFA maps, I'm finding that most people are simple congregating in a few areas to fight - and the rest of the time you are running along the corridors just to get to those congregation points. In other words, the gameflow for the maps has been lost due to their sheer scale. The best FFA maps are Vjun and Taspir, in my view. I can spend a lot of time simply wandering around the other maps looking for someone to fight. Incidentally, most of the 'congregation' points are where most of the large shields and health packs are to be found. Frankly, maps like Tatooine could simply be split down the middle into two separate maps, and they would work a lot better, in my view.

 

Originally posted by Greymon

What bothered me was the lack of direction and sense of purpose to the missions. The goal of the cult was to resurrect Ragnos, so why the hell do they try to destroy a rail on Corellia, release a rancor in a spaceport, blow up Bakura, etc...These had nothing to do with their goal of resurrecting Ragnos!

 

You have a good point - and as I said before, I agree with a lot of the flaws in the 'plot'. It would have been better if most of the 'mini-missions' had nothing to do with the cult at all - or had been more carefully thought out in relation to the over-arching 'theme' of the story.

 

Lets see: the uber-powerful Jedi Master Katarn and his best student are sitting perfectly still...in space...trying to sense....stuff. Yet they manage not to sense the imperial dreadnought that parks right above them? ...yada yada snip... So Kyle tells Jaden to destroy the Ties so they dont destroy the dreadnought that Kyle himself is trying to destroy!!!

 

Again, I agree. The 'plot' for that level didn't make sense. The design of the ship did, but not the storyline. I too wondered why there was not an army of Stormies waiting to ambush me when I stepped off the Raven's Claw. There are some basic flaws in logic, and a lack of depth to most of the mini-missions. The concept was good, but the execution was not so good, and it detracts from the rest of the game. The core missions were far better designed and executed, IMHO (Hoth, Vjun, Taspir and Korriban), while only a few of the choosable missions made sense and had a proper context.

 

Oh tell me about it...I still hate how slow blaster shots travel. I do remember some frustrating fights with a stormtrooper who ran circles around me taunting me while I blasted every wall, floor, and ceiling in kejim outpost until I ran outta ammo....but thats not AI and its still bad in JA.

 

The movement of the Stormies in that level was absolutely fine. It was the speed of the blaster bolts that was, quite frankly, stupid. And sadly it has not really changed in JA. There is something wrong when you can sidestep a blaster bolt from (in game terms) ten paces away. Jedi Knight actually handled it far better - the speed of the bolts was better, and the blocking speed with the saber was much faster in order to compensate.

 

Where in the JA materials does Raven tell us how to change this stuff? In fact, absent an extremely rare post on a forum, Raven hasn't said much of anything about MP. Yes, it IS Raven's fault. If they really intended the average disgruntled fan to customize, why didn't they make it more user friendly? They could have listed all these commands somewhere and explained what they did. Hell, they could've made a user interface to adjust these.

 

Again, I have to agree. The lack of information on console commands always leads to people constantly asking about them on the forums, and having to hunt down sometimes obscure lists from websites in order to try and understand them. It would make far more sense for a complete list (or at least a list of the most common commands likely to be used) with explanations to be included in either the game manual, or as a .pdf or .doc file on the game CDs. Having a proper utility for server setup/configuration, and a more comprehensive client-side server browser listing all of the possible variations used by a server (with easy links to 'explanations' of what they actually mean) would go a long way to removing some of the arcane mystery around this kind of thing. Unreal Tournament's interface is far more user friendly when it comes to selecting MP options, for example.

 

So lets judge JA by its community...1) a bunch of unhappy people who realize mp sucks, 2) people who will defend JA to the death, without any thought on the merits of it, because it says Star Wars on the box, and 3) a bunch of button mashers running around (slowly) talking about how "1337" they are and how much they "pwn j00".

 

And here we have your opinion of the community. Which is not necessarily correct, and almost certainly not representative of the whole. The 'bunch of unhappy people' may not like MP, and that's their prerogative. It doesn't mean they are 100% right in their reasoning or view, however. As for point number (2), I think that's a bit unwarranted. Just because people may not share your view of the game, does not instantly make them wrong in their own judgement. Everyone is free to make their own judgement, form their own opinion, and decide whether they like a game or not. I'm a Star Wars fan - but I'm also a long-term gamer, and I will judge every game by it's merits - and drawbacks. As I've indicated time and again, I can see a lot of flaws and room for improvement in JA...but at the same time I can see the places where it really shines and realises it's potential. As a result, I take a more balanced view. At no point, however, would I ridicule anyone for holding a different opinion to my own. As for point number (3), I can't say I've encountered a great deal of that.

[StormHammer]

Originally posted by FK|unnamed

for a game that has been out three weeks dude, the # of people playing it is just plain sad.

 

Oh, come now. We all know the reason for that. The in-game server browser is broken/bugged/flawed, whatever you want to call it - and most people will rely on that, rather than use a third-party server browser. It is obvious that most people trying to join an online MP game are going to try and use the server browser that comes with the damned game. This is very much Raven's fault, and I sincerely hope they are addressing this issue as part of a patch. Once it's fixed, I imagine there will be a great many more people playing. Just as an example - look at how many people have made threads on this board complaining about the low numbers of servers available - and I've lost count of the number of people I've helped in the IRC channel concerning the same issue.

 

Anyway, as regards your other comments - you don't have to be so abrasive or 'talk down' to other members here. You can't make a basic assumption that you are the only one 'in business' or who understands the 'business ethic'. I can assure you, many others do, including myself. Just because certain people might like the game is no excuse to ridicule them as 'fanboys' or label them as 'Star Wars geeks'. Those are, quite frankly, immature arguments against other people voicing their own opinions on this forum. Feel free to disagree all you want, but you can at least do so with a certain civility, and be less assuming of how other people lead their lives, or how they may understand the fundamental principles of business.

 

In light of the issues you raised in that regard, yes, I agree. It makes more economical sense to keep the customers happy, and to save costs wherever you possibly can. By the same token, you are more likely to listen to a majority of your customer base when addressing potential issues. If the vocal few are experiencing problems, and see there are major issues that need to be fixed, it doesn't mean a damned thing if they only form 2% of your customer base. There's another old saying, "You can't please everyone all of the time". Nor will companies try, because it doesn't make economical sense to alter a product based on the feedback of a minority. If 20% of your customers raise a legitimate issue, then you realise you've got a problem.

 

So I agree that discussions forums such as these are an ideal place to air your views, and even try to garner support to your cause. However, you don't do your own campaign much good if you rub other members up the wrong way. Offering constructive criticism, and giving detailed explanations of perceived flaws in the execution of the game's development (including obvious bugs and errors) is sure to attract a better response from both forum members and developers alike.

 

The bottom line is this - Raven and Lucasarts did not set out to make a bad game. No company or organisation worth it's salt sets out to make a flawed product, because you'll only have to deal with the issue later on down the line, or face bankruptcy. So yes, it makes sense for a patch to be released for the game - but in my view that patch should first focus on obvious bugs that are preventing customers from enjoying the product. We all have opinions about what constitutes a better quality product, right down to the particular shaded of blue used for a saber blade - but those are essentially user preferences rather than actual gameplay issues.

 

I can only recommend that you detail all of the true 'bugs' that you have discovered in the game, and add them to the growing list in the 'bugs' thread. If need be, I'll go through that entire thread myself and condense the information contained therein into a more usable format for the developers. One thing is for certain though - when it comes to user 'preferences', those will be largely ignored.

 

And I guess I've said enough, for now. Happy reading.

[KaiaSowapit]

As I stated above, bigger isn't necessarily better. I think the gameflow, especially on the FFA maps for JA, is 'looser' than that for the maps in JO.

 

Heh, just goes to show you how subjective opinions are. All the reasons (excluding the bot routing) you dislike Academy's maps are precisely why I like em!

 

All the more reason I hope if Raven rushes us out a patch... I hope it has more to do with honest to goodness bugs than altering game play mechanics.

[DeathStriker]

I think that JA and JO are both good in there own different ways. At the moment i like JA better because it is new, but when i get bored of it i will probably go back to JO. The one thing that annoys me about JA is when i am saber fighting (in a duel or otherwise) sometimes, my saber goes straight through someones body and dosent do any damage at all. Do you think raven will be able to fix this in a patch maybe?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ChaosDragon]

Originally posted by DeathStriker

I think that JA and JO are both good in there own different ways. At the moment i like JA better because it is new, but when i get bored of it i will probably go back to JO. The one thing that annoys me about JA is when i am saber fighting (in a duel or otherwise) sometimes, my saber goes straight through someones body and dosent do any damage at all. Do you think raven will be able to fix this in a patch maybe?

 

Actually you can fix that if you want. You need to look in the customization thread for how to turn on sabermorerealistic. If it is set to 3 then contact with a saber does damage, as I think it should.

[ManaMana]

Hmmm... Have the patch come out yet?

 

People, people, don't give critisism to the game before the patch... It might be nice... ;) :p :D