Akshara Posted November 6, 2003 Share Posted November 6, 2003 I edited all posts that contained bug information that is more of a preference than a bug, and yes Akshara and I disagree on 1! item that you told me that was not a bug. All the other remarks you made were considered legitimate remarks on your part and were removed from the bug list. I don't think you have any reason to complain. As a moderator/admin of several forum communities myself, I simply do not agree with the approach of editing or deleting member posts when they do not contain questionable content. Of course one has to trim out trolls and obviously inappropriate content (like warez, porn, slander, etc), but if it doesn't fall into those two categories then it treads on the grounds of censorship. Especially when said edits do not fall under the posted forum rules, as was the case with my post in the thread in question. So that's why I complained about being a little put off by the whole thing. But Ravenforums has other other unusual forum practices as well which are not clearly posted in the rules, like not allowing one to post in a thread that's over a week old for example. Kinda contradicts the whole "I know that on these forums the same thing gets posted over and over, stuff like that does not happen on the Raven Forums" comment. Whatever... you guys do what you need to do, and we can choose to participate or not. Now back to our regularly scheduled programming... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rickmus Posted November 6, 2003 Share Posted November 6, 2003 Originally posted by Akshara But Ravenforums has several unusual forum practices, like not allowing one to post in a thread that's over a week old. Kinda contradicts the whole "I know that on these forums the same thing gets posted over and over, stuff like that does not happen on the Raven Forums" comment. Whatever... you guys do what you need to do, and we can choose to participate or not. That's not a rule I'm aware of. Maybe it is some people's perception, but it is nothing I've ever told the mods to do there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akshara Posted November 6, 2003 Share Posted November 6, 2003 Rickmus... Well Wolf359 specifically stated it was a rule, and the mods are following the practice of locking any thread that someone posts in which is over a week old. This isn't conjecture or perception, it's fact. It makes it very difficult for a person to not have to start a new thread, which they in turn get chastised for by everyone on the board. I've seen it happen several times. There's even a thread in the General Discussion forum as a poll to whether this practice should continue or not. Bottom line.. the mods on your board are taking things just a little too far, imho... and are exacerbating much of the upset feelings that Raven is trying to calm in the first place. Definitely had that effect with me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted November 6, 2003 Share Posted November 6, 2003 Originally posted by Kurgan IIRC, the first patch for JK2 took 3 months from the official release of the game. Just for the record, from the sites I looked at JO wa released on March 27, 2002, patch 1.03 on May 6, 2002, and patch 1.04 on July 11, 2002. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eniaC Posted November 6, 2003 Share Posted November 6, 2003 Agreed Akshara, I've been trying to follow ravenforums since Lord Sokar wrote his honest letter about an actual "bug" to Raven and LAE(they prob. banned him to, huh?). For those of you not following this on ravenforums, Akshara has been supporting them from the beginning while 50 mil. people complain about stupid crap (ie: staff is way to overpowered, people wont stop spamming, you know stupid stuff). Akshara nicely posted a letter saying goodbye to that dictatorship(*/edit* I know it's not just 1 person and the actual Raven folks do really care), they still gave him/her cr*p. So in the end, even if your polite w/ educated posts and responses you get nothing but disrespect from people you are trying to support and give honest feedback to, you get slapped in the face. To all those Raven people dont even come in posting about freedom of speech and all the jazz, totaly irrelevent. Kudos Akshara, atleast you tried. *edited* rushed this post had to run kid off to school this morning, fixed grammer mistakes. For those who forgot I've supported Raven since the start against the whiners, I love the game and so does my kid : ) I even believe in one of my threads somewhere I suggested people quit Raven bashing, oh well. It's just a game, (Spoken by a starving artist that preordered the game and spent 50 dolars on it). Thats my fault though Ive been a Star Wars fan since I was very young and spent lots of money on LAE games (almost as much as Ive spent on my Square games over the years). Well anyhoo these are just opinions that don't mean s*** to anybody but me. Cheers *end edit* eniaC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akshara Posted November 6, 2003 Share Posted November 6, 2003 Rickmus.. Here's a link to the thread on your forums where it's stated as a rule... Ravenfourms thread "Hmmm..." And here's a link to the poll... Ravenfourms thread "Should bumping of threads rule be modified..." You'll notice in this thread that the mods don't agree, and that Unikorn blows it off as it must've been an old thread. But it was an ongoing and important discussion. This has been the case of several threads in the JA forum. Things get locked, closed, edited, and deleted simply way too often... and that makes people understandably upset. ----- My apologies, Razorace, for continuing this off-topic discussion, but it needed to be addressed. If the dev staff communicates with each other as well as they do with their Mod staff, then this whole email leak doesn't seem that too far fetched. Hopefully KB will come back (said he was done though), and will forward the email. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rickmus Posted November 6, 2003 Share Posted November 6, 2003 Originally posted by Akshara Well Wolf359 specifically stated it was a rule, and the mods are following the practice of locking any thread that someone posts in which is over a week old. This isn't conjecture or perception, it's fact. I will express to the mods that this should not be the case (though a rare exception when a topic goes off topic). Forums have to be kept under control. This can sometimes seem to be strict from the outside, but most of the time, a necessity. Most topics that were nuked in the JA were nuked by myself. Pointless bashing and speculation offer nothing positive to the forum, so I felt it was time to clean up. This is not to say that you can't post criticisms or specifics about what you like/dislike/needs to be address, etc. I, for one, always enjoy reading constructive criticism, as it helps you understand your audience and improve upon yourself for the next game you make. And since I'm airing, developers are usually the ones who are most energetic about releasing a patch. We are the ones who are most closely tied to the players, and we also receive the most direct feedback / criticism / hatred when stuff needs to be fix. But we also usually have our hands tied by outside influences that allows us to quickly release patches or other things. So saying that 'raven doesn't care' is misdirected, as we are usually not in a position to do something immediate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy867 Posted November 6, 2003 Share Posted November 6, 2003 Jedi Knight II: Jedi Outcast LucasArts 03/26/02 (from GameFaqs.com) Jedi Knight 2 Patch 1.03 05-06-2002 (from JK2Files.com) Jedi Knight II 1.04 Patch Author: LucasArts/Raven 7/11/02 (from JKII.net) And you guys think that Raven released patches right away for their games... You guys rely WAY to heavily on game developers to release Patches immediately and no time to enjoy the rest of the game, in which some BUGS can be avoided or fixed by the user, or is point and click too difficult a task to do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akshara Posted November 6, 2003 Share Posted November 6, 2003 Forums have to be kept under control. This can sometimes seem to be strict from the outside, but most of the time, a necessity... <snip> Most topics that were nuked in the JA were nuked by myself. I understand that... and your reasons for nuking the forum. But you should understand that the behaviour I'm discussing did not start when you posted your sticky thread, and has been going on for a little while. I totally understand that the mods are overwhelmed and frustrated with the continued and repeated complaints about the patch and the server issue... but they've just got to relax a little bit, and stop insulting the community members so much. Many times their responses and actions increase the community's tension, rather than diffuse it. developers are usually the ones who are most energetic about releasing a patch. We are the ones who are most closely tied to the players, and we also receive the most direct feedback / criticism / hatred when stuff needs to be fix. But we also usually have our hands tied by outside influences that allows us to quickly release patches or other things. So saying that 'raven doesn't care' is misdirected, as we are usually not in a position to do something immediate. This is what I've been trying to say over on your forums all along. I personally think that Raven has done a phenomenal job with JA overall, and trust that if you could get the server fix out yesterday you would. Nobody loves this game more than you all do. My only beef has to do with the treatment that the community gets on your forums. Even having the opinon which I stated above, your forum mods and "regulars or pseudo-mods" have hacked me off to the point of losing my patience with the whole thing. It's reflecting badly on Raven. Part of why I brought the discussion over here to Lucasforums was because of my irritation at the whole thing... which had been building over several weeks. I probably would have just left it alone if I didn't feel that there was an abuse of power happening at Ravenforums, and that the mods had finally lost control. Though it's good to hear it was actually you who did the last nuke-fest on the forums, it's obvious that the situation had been building to a head before you entered the picture. I just wish that Ravenforums was a fun place to visit, like it used to be back in the EF:Voy heyday. This is just my two cents, Rickmus.. take it or leave it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted November 6, 2003 Share Posted November 6, 2003 Originally posted by Andy867 or is point and click too difficult a task to do? From what I have seen in other threads, yes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babywax Posted November 6, 2003 Share Posted November 6, 2003 Quick question: Where is the JK section on raven forums? I found the forums on google, but I don't see anything for JK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akshara Posted November 6, 2003 Share Posted November 6, 2003 Yeah... that one made a lot of sense. It simply wasn't enough that one couldn't post as anonymous, but now a new kid looking for the Raven Jedi Knight forums won't even know they exist. Truth is that there's one guy who made such a loud noise that he not only got banned from participating, but managed to get the entire JK forum blocked from anonymous viewing entirely. Now one has to signup and login before the forums will display in the list. Something of a "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" situation... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FK | unnamed Posted November 6, 2003 Share Posted November 6, 2003 Originally posted by Andy867 And you guys think that Raven released patches right away for their games... You guys rely WAY to heavily on game developers to release Patches immediately and no time to enjoy the rest of the game, in which some BUGS can be avoided or fixed by the user, or is point and click too difficult a task to do? All game play talk aside, in case you didn't notice, the in-game browser issue has drastically reduced the number of people playing this game. Can it be fixed by a third party application? Sure. Should that be the only recourse? Not at all. Look at your own forms, not nearly as active as they were post JK2 launch are they? Not nearly as many players on the servers as there were around post JK2 launch are there? That in-game browser bug has done more damage to this game than any number of bad reviews could ever hope to. And if you don't think they (LEC) should get off their ass and sign a release for a fix that has probably already been made, then I really feel sorry for you. It's that exact attitude, the "oh well we just have to accept what we get no matter how low quality or flawed" that contributes to the lowering of standards in commercial product production. Or in simple terms, they keep feeding people crap because all they do is sit there and eat it with a wide grin on their face. Raven made a legitimate mistake with the browser bug, they have acknowledged that it is causing a serious problem in player traffic (the lack of it) and are willing to fix it. Why anyone would choose to sit here like you have and lament users and try to shift the blame on their shoulders by saying "all you people have to do is X, it's your fault" is just plain sad. If you have been using the internet for more than 6 months, you *should have noticed the one universal rule of the online world: People are lazy. How many times have you been asked to "link me" when all the person had to do is go to http://www.google.com and type two words in? People will buy the game, use the in game browser, see about 16 servers, give up after a short while and move on to another game. That is what has happened and will continue to happen. Now if you want to try and help people by telling them about cvars and third party browsers, great. But sitting here chastising them because they have not taken steps to fix a broken product they paid for is just making you look like a jerk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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