ShockV1.89 Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 You see Obi, these are all things that you believe. But many other people in the country do not. Look at the pledge. It basically contains things that everyone in this country enjoys, or at least strives for... except for "Under God." Not everybody believes that or strives for it. Not everybody believes we are "Under God." So why should I be making a pledge that it is? It's basically assigning an official religion to the UNited States, which it does not have. It may have historically been Christian, but this doesnt change things. It has no official religion, and thus, should not mention one in its official pledge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obi Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 I understand that not everyone feels like I do, thats the main reason for debate- to express opinions. BTW, thank you for stating yours not as rudely as Close the blast do(ors). @Closetheblastdo- why should you even care about the pledge if you live in England? Why even post in this thread? Besides, I find your example of violence flawed. Violence is everywhere, not just in America. Take that pompous attitude of yours and....grr...nvm... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CloseTheBlastDo Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 Besides, I find your example of violence flawed. Violence is everywhere, not just in America. Well then, please define in what areas you consider America so much more 'sucsessful' than other countries, and then which subset of these areas of sucsess was your god directly responsible for. You may not like my disrespect of your opinion - although even though I am not an American citizen, I still have the right to opinions on America's descisions... (if for no better reason than - like any other country, many of America's actions have GLOBAL consequences - not just local) ...but if you make a claim like this: Correct, and I don't see how this country could do away with the main reason of it's success. ...don't get upset when someone asks you to back it up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kain Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 Originally posted by CloseTheBlastDo Well then, please define in what areas you consider America so much more 'sucsessful' than other countries, and then which subset of these areas of sucsess was your god directly responsible for. Our army kicked your army's bum 200 years ago when you were the world power, and we can do it again. And then YOUR country was with God, what with the church all powerful as it was. Anyways, I've come to realize that the pledge should officially have it removed so that other religions(or lack thereof)don't feel discriminated against. Christians can say Under God, Muslims can say Under Allah, Jews can say Under...(since they believe its wrong to even say God's name), and Atheists can say something like Enlightened. It probably sounds stupid, but I think I might be able to get some people to agree with me, eh? (I'd like feedback about this too. In any posts following this, plz say whether you agree or not. You don't have to, Its just a personal experiment) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CloseTheBlastDo Posted October 18, 2003 Share Posted October 18, 2003 Heh ..it's OK, us English have had our fair share of dealing out arse-kicking too through history! So I'm not bitter ...and I'm sure our success in any war was down to our belief in God too - not our superior weaponry, numbers or organisation... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obi Posted October 18, 2003 Share Posted October 18, 2003 Well said, Kain. I don't think it sounds stupid at all, really. I think it's a good idea. It would solve a lot of fights/arguements about whats right. If everyone is doing what they want to (in regards to the pledge, of course) then there is no reason to argue about it. *applauds* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CloseTheBlastDo Posted October 18, 2003 Share Posted October 18, 2003 Obi-wan, A complement from me may possibly be hard to take, but I respect your conclusion - all the more because you had a different opinion earlier. I'm sorry if I seemed 'rude' to you, but unfortunately, coming on strong and making things very obvious is the only way to get through sometimes. ...but anyway - I salute you. And by the way, for the record - many things about America rock - ESPECIALLY Green Day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZBomber Posted October 18, 2003 Share Posted October 18, 2003 Originally posted by SkinWalker It shouldn't be there. By having "under god" in the pledge, it says that you cannot be an American if you are agnotstic, atheist, or of a religion other than christian theism. While this might be fine for some or even many, I don't think that it is what the Founding Fathers intended. Some of whom, BTW, were agnostic or secular. If you athesit, or whatever, and don't believe in God, whats so hard about saying Under God. Its not like your gonna get killed for praising a God, when you don't believe in a God. I hope this made a little sence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CloseTheBlastDo Posted October 18, 2003 Share Posted October 18, 2003 If you athesit, or whatever, and don't believe in God, whats so hard about saying Under God. Its not like your gonna get killed for praising a God, when you don't believe in a God. I understand your sentiment, but PLEASE try and look from another person's point of view. If the pledge said 'Under NO God' - don't you think that YOU would - at the very least - be complaining about it, and requesting it either be altered, or removed...? Or would you REALLY just put up with it without complaint? This concept is known as 'putting yourself in someone else's shoes' ...also, 'Don't expect others to do something that you would not be willing to do yourself'. It's not fair, and it's not right. At least by my definition of 'fair' and 'right'... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obi Posted October 18, 2003 Share Posted October 18, 2003 Originally posted by CloseTheBlastDo I'm sorry if I seemed 'rude' to you, but unfortunately, coming on strong and making things very obvious is the only way to get through sometimes. Actually, I should be sorry for being rude. If you ask people like Skinwalker, I'm usually one that keeps up a debate the way it is supposed to be. You know, minus the short posts, more explaining, etc. I wasn't exactly in a good mood when I was posting in here the other day, and I haven't been here in a while. I guess it's a matter of "getting rusty" and I have to sort of "Get back in the groove." And by the way, for the record - many things about America rock - ESPECIALLY Green Day On this, we can agree on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiRtY $oUtH™ Posted October 18, 2003 Share Posted October 18, 2003 Originally posted by Cosmos Jack If you don't believe in the pledge than it is meaningless from the start. I don't think it is waist of taxpayer Dollars to keep a kid from being put out of class for not saying something that they don't believe in. That is discrimination isn't it and making the pledge a religious prayer is discrimination. Here is some history of the Pledge of Allegiance.. http://history.vineyard.net/pledge.htm "In 1954, Congress after a campaign by the Knights of Columbus, added the words, 'under God,' to the Pledge. The Pledge was now both a patriotic oath and a public prayer." It was added during the cold war and the rampant Communist witch hunts. We thought we were more holy than the Communists.. Yes it should be removed.. Separation of church and state is our right under the constitution. It is my right to go to government place and not see anything pertaining to religion of any kind to do so is biased to any other religion... Hmm odd so you are saying the government should favor christians? Isn't the government suppose to favor no religious beliefs? Isn't that what "Separation of church and state" is all about ???????? "Under god" wasn't in the pledge when it was written. So what you're saying is that they should favor athiests? If you don't like how this country is then fuc***g go somewhere else...I'm sure they'll have a pledge more suitable to your [1 word deleted] needs...making a big deal out of nothing...that's why you are all going to go to hell! I removed one word from your post so as to put out the flames. Please be mindful of what you say to others Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinWalker Posted October 18, 2003 Share Posted October 18, 2003 Originally posted by DiRtY $oUtH™ If you don't like how this country is then fuc***g go somewhere else...I How very un-American of you. Don't you realize that it is the patriot who is willing to criticize his government in order to effect positive change? Don't you realize that not sitting back and accepting the status quo is an American tradition? Yes... Un-American of you. Originally posted by DiRtY $oUtH™ I'm sure they'll have a pledge more suitable to your needs...making a big deal out of nothing...that's why you are all going to go to hell! I deleted another word of yours.. that's two in a day. Please do not flame forum members or moderators here in the Senate. Consider this a warning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZBomber Posted October 19, 2003 Share Posted October 19, 2003 Originally posted by CloseTheBlastDo I understand your sentiment, but PLEASE try and look from another person's point of view. If the pledge said 'Under NO God' - don't you think that YOU would - at the very least - be complaining about it, and requesting it either be altered, or removed...? Or would you REALLY just put up with it without complaint? This concept is known as 'putting yourself in someone else's shoes' ...also, 'Don't expect others to do something that you would not be willing to do yourself'. It's not fair, and it's not right. At least by my definition of 'fair' and 'right'... Well, sure, I wouldn't like it, but I just wouldn't say it, and I definetly wouldn't try to get them to change it. I respect whoever's view about God. Its not that big a deal, even if I was forced to say it, My God would know that I had to, and that I still believe in him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CloseTheBlastDo Posted October 19, 2003 Share Posted October 19, 2003 Well, sure, I wouldn't like it, but I just wouldn't say it, and I definetly wouldn't try to get them to change it. I respect whoever's view about God. Its not that big a deal, even if I was forced to say it, My God would know that I had to, and that I still believe in him. Well, if indeed you wouldn't say anything in this situation, then I cannot accuse you of hypocrisy at least. And it says something good about your character... But I would argue that your not really taking into account what the pledge is meant to be in the first place. (Someone correct me if a 'limey' get's it wrong though... ) Isn't the pledge suppost to be something which 'Americans' say? i.e. it is a statement which in essense defines what it is to be American? I agree with you in a way. As long as you treat it as just a 'saying', then maybe it's not worth 'individually' getting worked up about it. But whether you like it or not, an official 'American' pledge carries significant meaning, and things can be 'read' into it. Not only in your country, but around the world. I think it's a bit nieve to think that a religious reference in a countries 'official' pledge should be considered as 'arbitary' or 'not of any real significance'... But anyway - I'm not sure their is much more to say on this, so I'll just leave you Yanks to it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiRtY $oUtH™ Posted October 20, 2003 Share Posted October 20, 2003 Originally posted by SkinWalker How very un-American of you. Don't you realize that it is the patriot who is willing to criticize his government in order to effect positive change? Don't you realize that not sitting back and accepting the status quo is an American tradition? Yes... Un-American of you. I deleted another word of yours.. that's two in a day. Please do not flame forum members or moderators here in the Senate. Consider this a warning. Un-American?? That's hillarious! What I'm saying is very simple...If you don't like the way this country is...then leave. We shouldn't have to change something that has been in our system for decades simply to satisfy a specific group of people. Why can't you just not recite it...What's so hard about that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinWalker Posted October 20, 2003 Share Posted October 20, 2003 Originally posted by DiRtY $oUtH™ Un-American?? That's hillarious! What I'm saying is very simple...If you don't like the way this country is...then leave. Why? Why should the inflexible and rigid who refuse to demonstrate progress be the curators of the country? Why shouldn't the progressive and those interested in evolution of thought and improvements on paradigms have an equal say? Originally posted by DiRtY $oUtH™ We shouldn't have to change something that has been in our system for decades simply to satisfy a specific group of people. If that line of thinking were the American way, we would have been more successful at keeping the blacks and women from voting. Accused persons wouldn't be able to get appropriate trials and legal representation. Income tax wouldn't exist to pay for all of the federal programs we enjoy. Poll taxes and literacy tests would still eliminate many from voting. And in order to vote, you would have to be a white-male, land owner. Originally posted by DiRtY $oUtH™ Why can't you just not recite it...What's so hard about that? By not reciting it while others do, the individual is stigmatized and often taunted or ridiculed by, not only the other students, but the teachers themselves. Being of christian faith, therefore, becomes the de facto state religeon. Religious freedom is restricted. And this, my friend, is one of the very tenets of our great country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kain Posted October 20, 2003 Share Posted October 20, 2003 "In 1954, Congress after a campaign by the Knights of Columbus, added the words, 'under God,' to the Pledge. The Pledge was now both a patriotic oath and a public prayer." That being said, it is not only illegal to say it in a public school, but with the way some teachers act, its completely biased toward 1 religion, the very thing the Bill of Rights is opposed too. But of course, it is the one who refuses to stand and say the pledge who is singled out, not because he is standing for his rights, but because he's (in the words of so many of my classmates and teachers) "Going to Hell". Fair, isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShockV1.89 Posted October 20, 2003 Share Posted October 20, 2003 Does that really happen that often? Kids being ridiculed by their peers for not saying the pledge? I onyl ask because of my own personal experience. I stopped really saying the pledge around middle school (because I didn't feel the need to say it, being that I had said it every day of school for the past 7 years, and if they weren't convinced that I had pledged my allegiance, they never would be). Nobody gave me a hard time. A few people gave me some funny looks, but I didn't get picked on or beat up or anything. Teachers never seemed to care either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Sitherino Posted October 27, 2003 Share Posted October 27, 2003 I had been suspended from school the other day for not reciting the pledge. I also ended up getting extra work. So of course I see bias. But maybe that's just me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted November 2, 2003 Share Posted November 2, 2003 When I was in grade school (state elementary school in Iowa in the 80's) there were always 1-3 kids in our class who didn't say the pledge of allegience. They just sat quietly while everybody else said it. Nobody made fun of them or anything. I think a few of us asked the teacher one time (including myself, I was curious) why they didn't say it, and the teacher just said "it's against their religion." And I think everybody understood automatically because when ever we talked about patriotism and freedom in school we always mentioned the freedom of speech and freedom of religion, so it didn't seem odd to us. And that was the end of it. There was also a kid in gym class when we had our "dancing" unit he just sat on the side during it, and again, the answer from the teacher was "it's against his religion." Again, they weren't made fun of, we just all just moved on. As we got older we said the pledge less and less until we finally didn't say it at all (I forget when it was.. maybe around 5th or 6th grade). That's not to say that everyone is that tolerant, maybe my school was an exception. There might have been atheists in my class, but I'd never know, because we didn't really discuss religion. Once or twice the topic came up like when we were having a unit about geology and how the world came to be (again, this was in the early grades, I forget which.. maybe 2nd or 3rd grade?). First we read a few "creation myths" from various cultures, including one of the ones from the Bible (and some from the aztecs, chinese, etc). Then we studied the current scientific theories (in the limited fashion you would read about them in those grades). When it came to the subject of plate techtonics they said stuff like "today scientists think..." and told the theory of pangea. Then we had an activity in the classroom where we cut out paper shaped like the continents and glued them on a map of the world to show how we "imagined it might have looked like." And the teacher even said something like "if you believe that it looked just like it does today, that's fine too [for the activity, since nobody really knows for sure]." During "show and tell" sometimes people brought in religious stuff, but now that I think of it I can only remember the one kid in our class who was Jewish (his dad was Jewish, his mom Christian) bringing in his menorah and dradel to talk about Hannukah. In Music class during Christmas time I think we sang Hannukah song's too IIRC. I never heard of anybody opting out of singing the holiday songs (none of which were too overtly religious) but my sister (8 years younger) when she went through grade school remembered some kids who didn't sing because it was against their religion (the particular song). Again, maybe my class was the exception. Nobody ever sat out in the hall during the pledge, and nobody was taunted in school for not following the pledge. That doesn't mean it can't happen of course, and when it does, that's a really cruel and unfair thing, especially if it's the teacher who does it! The wording of the pledge should also be changable. If the nation was fine for so many years without a pledge, and fine for so many years without the words "under God" Then it should be fine going back to that again. It's not a big issue for me, because I don't base my faith on the pledge, and it doesn't say "Jesus" or whatever either. But I understand those who have been victims of abuses of the pledge and that right there should either call for revision of the text or else rules about tolerance when saying it be strictly adhered to. As pointed out in my examples, these were people who believed in God (I'm guessing... they sounded like Jehovah's Witnesses, since from what I remember they don't believe in swearing oaths or celebrating most if not all holidays) but just not the activity. A pagan might believe in "God" but wouldn't it seem odd to acknowledge only one of them? In mixed company it would be more appropriate to say a more secular version of the pledge. Obviously it would be fine for a group of all Christians (who didn't have a problem with oaths) or Jews to say "under God" and nobody would need be offended or feel left out. InsaneSith, you should get your parents to complain to the school.. and cite the First Amendment. See what happens at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Sitherino Posted November 4, 2003 Share Posted November 4, 2003 Originally posted by Kurgan InsaneSith, you should get your parents to complain to the school.. and cite the First Amendment. See what happens at least. done it, nothing changed. Now I either say it or I go to inschool suspension.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinWalker Posted November 4, 2003 Share Posted November 4, 2003 Originally posted by InsaneSith done it, nothing changed. Now I either say it or I go to inschool suspension.. BTW, I think you've got a valid fight about the Pledge thing... Are you sure that there's no other considerations to the issue? Not to be critical, but you strike me as the kind of kid that will say what's on his mind to adults... sometimes this can cause authority figures like school teachers/principals to lash back. If it's just the Pledge issue, I think you should take it to the District level of school administration. Or Channel 4 BTW, about the PM you sent, do want me to reply in the Bush thread or PM? Your PM box is full... you might want to check the "sent" folder and "inbox" but choose "from the beginning" to see all of your mail. (the sent box is the main culprit.. always is). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmos Jack Posted November 4, 2003 Share Posted November 4, 2003 Originally posted by DiRtY $oUtH™ So what you're saying is that they should favor athiests? If you don't like how this country is then fuc***g go somewhere else...I'm sure they'll have a pledge more suitable to your [1 word deleted] needs...making a big deal out of nothing...that's why you are all going to go to hell! No they should favor everyone by being impartial. Stating the Government is against atheist or any other religion is fundamentally wrong and against church and state. As far a leaving the USA. I have done my time for king and country there "Mr. Aim High." So whenever you want to come a remove me I will be more than happy to arrange it so you can try. Obviously you have a problem with freedom of speech as well as the other basic ideas the country was founded on. Maybe you should be one leaving and going someplace else. Where people are forced to think and act one way. The nature of your post is totally opposite to the rights of a US citizen. "You are the one in the wrong country." As far as going to hell that is a remark bigot would make. Do you also think the south should rise again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShockV1.89 Posted November 4, 2003 Share Posted November 4, 2003 Damn, Kurgan, you sound like you went to a very good school. It's good to hear that more teachers are addressing diverse classes with a diverse curriculum. And that people aren't badmouthed for being different. Gives me hope. My school was similar. I was taught the evolution theory in 7th grade (I had learned on my own before then, but this was my first formal study), and the teacher was very, very clear that this was A) theory, and not proof, and B) not to be taken as an insult to ones religion. Itwas science class... And nobody ever gave anyone a rough time about the pledge, although we certainly had people saying it all the way up through senior year. Us "non-pledgers" were always in the minority, but it was never an issue. To "Dirty South" Good to know I'm going to hell for not saying the pledge or wanting to respect people who might not be religious. Go tolerance go. BTW, I suggest you read the sticky thread at the top of the Senate, the one concerning debate tactics and what not to do. One that I suggested is not using the same argument over and over again, even after it's been shot down and shredded and burned and is lying in the corner in a pudle of vomit and blood... *cough*... You used the "if you don't like it, leave" argument in at least one other thread, and it was thoroughly demolished. Don't use it anymore, it's not working here either. I wont go into why it's wrong. Read the thread for the counter argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Sitherino Posted November 4, 2003 Share Posted November 4, 2003 Originally posted by SkinWalker BTW, I think you've got a valid fight about the Pledge thing... Are you sure that there's no other considerations to the issue? Not to be critical, but you strike me as the kind of kid that will say what's on his mind to adults... sometimes this can cause authority figures like school teachers/principals to lash back. If it's just the Pledge issue, I think you should take it to the District level of school administration. Or Channel 4 BTW, about the PM you sent, do want me to reply in the Bush thread or PM? Your PM box is full... you might want to check the "sent" folder and "inbox" but choose "from the beginning" to see all of your mail. (the sent box is the main culprit.. always is). I always speak my mind, minorital opinion or not I speak it because I believe everyone has the right to state their opinion. I've taken it to the schoolboard but they aren't able to deal with it supposedly, the district has gone through mass changes, the entire board has been changed all the schools have undergone change in administration, I speak my mind each day, We've only been told to say it on monday's so I just go to school late (not that I mind ). Also I've grown extreme hatred towards most of the onscene news reporters since my friend died (they'd harrased us tons about his death so I'm still a bit pissed about it). and the PM thing is for just you and I, I like to have private chats about things sometimes, and most people around here either don't know much or they are too busy to get a chance to talk to me . *empties PM box* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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