Comm539 Posted October 25, 2003 Share Posted October 25, 2003 JA: 7191 players, 2526 of which bots. In s/o games: 2303 players, 836 of which bots. s/o ctf games 22 players, 0 of which bots. JK2: s/octf games 184 players, 10 of which bots. After a month or two after release these are the stats for a saturday afternoon. S/o combat is dying. Clearly s/o ctf has 22 players...erm maybe its because of the obvious gameplay bugs in JA s/o ctf that every told you about on release. We want to play the new game, new graphics, new maps. The gamemode is already there. All we ask is that its fixed...or as you can see JA will die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormHammer Posted October 25, 2003 Share Posted October 25, 2003 Originally posted by Comm539 JA: 7191 players, 2526 of which bots. In s/o games: 2303 players, 836 of which bots. s/o ctf games 22 players, 0 of which bots. JK2: s/octf games 184 players, 10 of which bots. After a month or two after release these are the stats for a saturday afternoon. S/o combat is dying. Clearly s/o ctf has 22 players...erm maybe its because of the obvious gameplay bugs in JA s/o ctf that every told you about on release. We want to play the new game, new graphics, new maps. The gamemode is already there. All we ask is that its fixed...or as you can see JA will die. As you point out above...there are 2303 people playing in saber only games. JA as a whole is hardly going to die. The only thing that appears to be dying is your particular game mode - which may, in fact, not be the most popular game type anyway. It's regrettable you can't get the enjoyment out of the game that you were expecting - but claiming JA will die because one game type is considered to be 'nerfed' is a sweeping statement that doesn't exactly stand up to close scrutiny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted October 25, 2003 Share Posted October 25, 2003 I admit there are bugs in the game that need to be fixed (namely the rocket bug, skins bug, a couple of map bugs, bad bot pathing and most of all the server display bug). But.... What gameplay bugs are in S/O CTF? Or are you calling the lack of flip kicks a "bug"? Just curious. Btw, as far as I could tell S/O CTF was never that big of a game mode. It had a "community" sure, but it was always a small one. And think about it... S/O CTF is a subset of a subset of gameplay. Just because IT may be dying does not mean that JA itself is dying. That arrogantly assumes that this is the only way that people play or that its the most important game mode (which I'm sure many would disagree with). That's 22 people vs. 4,643 people. Are you saying those 22 people define the whole community? Surely not... I am confident that if/when (they better) a patch fixes the server bug, the online gaming community should explode (assuming LA/Raven informs enough people of the change so it can be spread by word of mouth to the people who gave up on the game due to "lack of servers"). To the majority of online players it will look like suddenly a ton of new servers sprang up... while to us more knowledgable fans, we'll see that a bug was simply fixed so that hundreds of servers get the exposure they deserved all along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comm539 Posted October 25, 2003 Author Share Posted October 25, 2003 This has been stated many a time before, but i will repeat it, for you. The s/o ctf community was the largest community in JK2...its notand opinion, its a fact. It was also the last active community in JK2 in terms of comps and ladders, finishing 1 week after JA was released. If you really think 2000 players is a lot for 1-2 months after release then your mistaken. 6 months after release, JK2 has in total 8000 online players (and that was 2 years ago when there were less internet connections). 22 players is sadly the JA s/o ctf community at the moment. As stated no clan has ported to JA due to obvious gameplay bugs in s/o ctf. And Kurgan as you've read countless times before, the bug is not the kick, the bug is not being able to stop and fc who doesnt want to be stopped. Lets not have the same arguement again, as if i remeber correctly, you were unable to suggest any other feasable way to stop someone without reactivating kicks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comm539 Posted October 25, 2003 Author Share Posted October 25, 2003 and omg if your gonna edit the title of my thread at least make it relavent. This has nothing to do with a lack of servers, its to do with the gameplay bug of not being able to stop an fc who doesnt want to be stopped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted October 25, 2003 Share Posted October 25, 2003 Hello... YOU titled this thread "dead" can't get anymore vague than that can you? I was trying to help, sheesh.. tell me what you would like it titled then? And the stuff about stopping a FC in S/O CTF wasn't even brought up until a couple of posts ago, your thread starter post was only about the lack of players/servers. You assume too much... And Kurgan as you've read countless times before, the bug is not the kick, the bug is not being able to stop and fc who doesnt want to be stopped. Lets not have the same arguement again, as if i remeber correctly, you were unable to suggest any other feasable way to stop someone without reactivating kicks. That's not a bug. A bug is a programming glitch. Leaving something out or removing something is not a "bug." That's like saying the fact that the Stun Baton and Bryar Pistol are removed is a "bug" that needs to be fixed. A general complaint about gameplay is just that, it's not a "bug fix request." The s/o ctf community was the largest community in JK2...its notand opinion, its a fact. It was also the last active community in JK2 in terms of comps and ladders, finishing 1 week after JA was released. So in other words my suspicion was correct, you assume that the Sabers Only CTF community is the most important one, and since they are not as big in JA as they were in JK2, you declare the game is dying (simply because your group no longer dominates). If I was wrong about the size of the sabers only ctf community I apologize. I didn't play JK2 continuosly, I probably played it for for half a year starting from its release. But I honestly had never even heard of, seen, or played on a Sabers Only CTF server until I heard about people complaining when JA came out. I played a few games of Sabers Only CTF in JK1, but found them very slow and frustrating, so I pretty much gave up on the idea and never bothered with it for JK2. Like others have said, it's sad that your game style of choice isn't more popular, but, oh well? The modding tools are out now (except for the SDK), maybe that's a better route than asking for a patch (and what exactly would a patch do, besides adding Flip Kicks?). I might as well declare that FFA is dead because the Bryar Pistol is gone, and therefore the entire game is doomed and demand that a patch add the Bryar pistol to the game, when it would be far easier for me to just release a mod that added the weapon in and be done with it, if that's all that's stopping me from enjoying the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormHammer Posted October 25, 2003 Share Posted October 25, 2003 Originally posted by Comm539 If you really think 2000 players is a lot for 1-2 months after release then your mistaken. 6 months after release, JK2 has in total 8000 online players (and that was 2 years ago when there were less internet connections). And as you are well aware, due to the flaw with the in-game server browser, many people simply cannot see servers to play on, and probably think the game has quite a small community. Until that is fixed, of course there will not be as many players online, unless they all realise they need to get a 3rd party server browser in the meantime. And as for your claim that so/ctf was the biggest community in terms of JK2...then why aren't people still playing it, if (a) it was so good, and (b) JA is so bad? By your own statistics...184 players hardly constitutes a 'major' part of the community. If the community was so strong and dedicated to that particular game type...then you have to ask yourself why they are not still playing it. This has nothing whatever to do with JA - because it is mind-numbingly easy for dedicated people to still continue playing that game-type in JO, the way they want, if they so wished. So I think the change within the community must be more fundamental than the fact that JA came out and offered something different. Essentially, what was the state of the community just before JA arrived? Are you saying the number of players suddenly dropped from many hundreds (or even thousands) to less than 200? Just like that? Forgive me if I find that incredibly hard to swallow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted October 25, 2003 Share Posted October 25, 2003 That's a good point SH... if S/O CTF was so perfect a gamemode in JK2, it should still be popular in that game. All the mod tools for JK2 have been out for a long time, there's nothing stopping folks from making new maps to keep it fresh. And if its ported to JA exactly as it was in JK2, how will that extend its popularity? All you're adding are a few subtle changes (like radar and voice commands, most of which wouldn't be relevant to S/O CTF anyway) and two new sabers. JA can't be expected to save S/O CTF if that game mode was already dying in JK2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Kaan Posted October 25, 2003 Share Posted October 25, 2003 Originally posted by Comm539 This has been stated many a time before, but i will repeat it, for you. The s/o ctf community was the largest community in JK2...its notand opinion, its a fact. It was also the last active community in JK2 in terms of comps and ladders, finishing 1 week after JA was released. If you really think 2000 players is a lot for 1-2 months after release then your mistaken. 6 months after release, JK2 has in total 8000 online players (and that was 2 years ago when there were less internet connections). 22 players is sadly the JA s/o ctf community at the moment. As stated no clan has ported to JA due to obvious gameplay bugs in s/o ctf. And Kurgan as you've read countless times before, the bug is not the kick, the bug is not being able to stop and fc who doesnt want to be stopped. Lets not have the same arguement again, as if i remeber correctly, you were unable to suggest any other feasable way to stop someone without reactivating kicks. Dude........ Up the saber damage scale, reduce the blocking and fix the problem your bitching about. I play SO/CTF all the time with a group of 20 and we have no problem stopping most FC's. The key word being MOST, since Good FC's are hard to kill anyway, especially when they play smart in SO/CTF. It's the nature of the gametype, whether in JKO OR JA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.:Silver:. Posted October 25, 2003 Share Posted October 25, 2003 I'm a big s/o ctf fan from JO. In JA it's not real easy to have much fun with it though. However, the two Chop Shop servers solve many of JA's s/o pitfalls by giving saberists the most deadly weapon. These servers still allow players to use guns, but have ramped up the damage scale on sabers so much that one clean hit will kill anyone. Those who are masters at guns will still be good, but those of us who were masters with the saber in JO can now hold our own. It's not s/o ctf, but it can be just as satisfying once you get familiarized to the new settings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainJackZ Posted October 25, 2003 Share Posted October 25, 2003 Originally posted by Kurgan: All the mod tools for JK2 have been out for a long time, there's nothing stopping folks from making new maps to keep it fresh. this is true kurg, but the problem is, people will not download custom maps to get into a server. I don't know why bu they just don't. Lots of s/o ctf servers had custom maps, but thy didn't last long at all. I sorta thought of JA as un upgrade of JO, but it doesn't reallyseem like this is the case. If raven release the sdk, JA s/o ctf will become strong again, but that seems to be becomming a bigger and bigger if...*sigh* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comm539 Posted October 26, 2003 Author Share Posted October 26, 2003 The stats i posted show JK2 s/o ctf is still popular...but ppl want to move on to the new game...new maps...better graphics...the posibilty of more players. And the problem we have is a gameplay bug not a programming bug, a gameplay bug. Since there is no way to stop an fc, there is a flaw in the gameplay...hence the bug. Reitterating, stopping some random fc is a doddle. Its when better fcs play. It was hard in JK2, but it is now impossible in JA. If you dont understand why, dont even bother replying to this post. I mean it. Go away. Comments like 'use guns' or 'i can do it' are pointless and unhelpful. If you have no knowledge of competetive play, dont comment. Finally, we're not the most important community, i dont think any community is more or less important than the others. All we ask is that our gamemode (which the devs have added) is fixed...remeber a toggleable patch would mean no other gamemode is affected. Kappesh? Good Fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted October 26, 2003 Share Posted October 26, 2003 Originally posted by Comm539 The s/o ctf community was the largest community in JK2...its notand opinion, its a fact. I have a hard time beleiving that. When I played JO, in my browser there were always tons more servers and players playing FFA and Duel gametypes. Looking in the All Seeing Eye for JA right now, I see 19 CTF servers, 10 of which are empty. There are several hundred FFA servers and over a hundred Duel servers. What are you basing your claim on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eniaC Posted October 26, 2003 Share Posted October 26, 2003 Originally posted by Comm539 The stats i posted show JK2 s/o ctf is still popular...but ppl want to move on to the new game...new maps...better graphics...the posibilty of more players. Then Why don't they do that, maybe there would be more s/o ctf servers. http://funwavs.com/wavfile.php?quote=2280&sound=297 http://funwavs.com/wavfile.php?quote=2295&sound=297 http://funwavs.com/wavfile.php?quote=2304&sound=297 eniaC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bodstevens Posted October 26, 2003 Share Posted October 26, 2003 I have played alot of s/o CTF. Anyone who knows anything about s/o CTF JO, knows that: FK, =X=, Div3rse, JW, and countless other s/o CTF players, are very good at the game. I have yet to see or play any players who can beat on these players consistently. They know about s/o FF period. All because of one simple fact... If you play alot of s/o CTF you learn to kill the flag carrier very, very fast and efficient. I have seen that the best s/o CTF players are always good duelers. Remember Idiot Savant anyone? Kick was an opening for returning the flag not a Spam move. The players would use team work (better than in siege imo..) to use team heal, energize and drain to help keep the FC alive and defend him as he ran from the other team to return the flag. All very fast and over and over it would go. I like many others play the JK series to play with a lightsaber and force powers. But that’s just my take on this game. Please correct me but there are better gun games than the JK 2 3 ones. Yes having force powers is cool with guns, but don’t feel like melee fighting, just feels like other Q3 ,Half-life or UT games with power ups on. Players are still playing counter strike still after 100 years.... Even the Q3 ,MOH, SOF's,BF1942's and UT games are better gun games than JK ones (except DF of course). For example: the E 11 blaster rifle is horrible for to hit things for example and other guns are just splash damage guns and on and on.. The UT flak cannon is the Golan arms gun.. I and lots of people play JK for being able to do Jedi things like using a lightsaber and force powers (its sad I know) you may disagree and that’s cool. Other games can’t mod in light sabers because Lucas arts will shut them down. But if I wanted to say, super speed around really fast hopping and jumping really high shooting plasmas / rockets type stuff, I can play other before mentioned gun games and get the power up's ect and have the same experience ( and more maps and players too). But I want to play something different, s/o FF is new and is melee fighting up close really is fresh to me. To do this online against skilled players is really fun and no other game can do it with light sabers and Jedi skills. I found that CTF is very sports like as both teams are trying to out score the other team, so no dueling or RPG stuff just play as a team or lose. So if any of you get a chance I urge you to try JO s/o CTF on the little servers left, play for a bit. Then use an alternate method for finding a game (like ASE or lame spy) and then play JA s/o CTF and you all will understand what they are saying. So far in JA the chop shops’ servers have the right idea but need an s/o one. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g//anarki Posted October 26, 2003 Share Posted October 26, 2003 Originally posted by {R^S}eniaC{JC} Then Why don't they do that, maybe there would be more s/o ctf servers. http://funwavs.com/wavfile.php?quote=2280&sound=297 http://funwavs.com/wavfile.php?quote=2295&sound=297 http://funwavs.com/wavfile.php?quote=2304&sound=297 eniaC Because if you've read the threads for the past few months, it's not possible to kill an FC in ff/so CTF if the FC knows what they're doing (in competition play, not the regular pub games where you just connect and play) resulting in a complete stalemate. Not such a fun thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eniaC Posted October 26, 2003 Share Posted October 26, 2003 Originally posted by g//plaZma Because if you've read the threads for the past few months, it's not possible to kill an FC in ff/so CTF if the FC knows what they're doing (in competition play, not the regular pub games where you just connect and play) resulting in a complete stalemate. Not such a fun thing. Sorry, makes sense. Excuse the naive questions but can't you just turn ff off, until the problem is fixed. Don't know to much about tourney play so appologize in advance if this is a stupid request. Origanally posted by Comm539- "You people are so pathetic. Its a game. Its not a major issue you either think its a good or bad idea, not quote some canon trash (because btw sabers should be one hit killers!!!1111oneonetwotwo)" http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=116056 hmmm? eniaC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g//anarki Posted October 26, 2003 Share Posted October 26, 2003 Originally posted by {R^S}eniaC{JC} Sorry, makes sense. Excuse the naive questions but can't you just turn ff off, until the problem is fixed. Don't know to much about tourney play so appologize in advance if this is a stupid request. Hey, it's cool. Actually, turning force off until the problem is fixed would make the gametype dreadfully boring, and make it just like every other FPS's CTF, minus the guns. Force just added a whole new element to the gametype and made it worthwhile to play. Subtract the force and you just got a saber and a guy with your flag running and strafejumping as fast as he can along cliffs and other things he could have potentially gotten force pushed/pulled/kicked off of if force was on. But instead, you gotta chase him with a lightsaber and hardly any tactical teamwork other than everyone on your team chasing the FC in a giant mob, hoping to hit him by chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.:Silver:. Posted October 26, 2003 Share Posted October 26, 2003 Originally posted by bodstevens Remember Idiot Savant anyone? All too well. Every time we played on the same server we would have to play opposite of each other. Otherwise, the teams would be too lopsided. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amidala from Chop Shop Posted October 26, 2003 Share Posted October 26, 2003 Originally posted by bodstevens So far in JA the chop shops’ servers have the right idea but need an s/o one. Cheers Well the s/o ff CTF crowd are a very elite and competitive group of players, with their own clans, servers, TWL, etc. It's like the golfers on the PGA or LPGA tour compared the vast majority of golfers who play for fun and relaxation, so I don't think there would be enough demand for me to justify making one of my servers a s/o ff CTF-only public server. I see my role differently. Everyone has to start somewhere. The current competitive CTF players were not born with flags on their backs. Before you can have experienced, skilled, competitve, hard-core CTF players, you have to have beginner CTF players. There are a lot of online players who think online FPS gaming = deathmatch\FFA. Maybe some try or specialize in dueling, but many have never tried or even heard of CTF, and would never imagine joining an all-CTF server. One of the hallmark features of all Chop Shop servers (even the JK2 Instagib server) is changing gametypes during the map rotation. Currently both JA servers have a rotation of 5 FFA maps, then 5 CTF maps, then 1 Team FFA map (to ease the transition from CTF to FFA). What happens is the FFA players suddenly find themselves in the first of 5 consecutive CTF maps. Most of them stick around and play their first-ever CTF games (I can tell they've never played before because a lot of them ask "I have the flag, what do I do with it?" "Where do I take this flag?" "I took the flag to our base, where do I plant it?"). Of course, as we all know, CTF is a lot of fun at any level of expertise, so a lot (not all) of former deathmatch\FFA only players discover a new love. Some of them will become the TWL CTF players of the future. That being said, I was planning on making one of the servers all-CTF after the browser patch comes out. It would be easy enough for me to have a rotation alternating 5 full-weapon CTF maps with 5 saber-only CTF maps. The other server would remain FFA-CTF-TFFA to introduce (seduce?) new players to CTF. The CTF server would let the beginning and intermediate CTF players gain experience in a less-competitve environment than TWL, and introduce the full-weapon CTF players to the subtleties of saber-only CTF. We'll see how it goes. Just consider Chop Shop to be part of the "farm" leagues for the "big leagues" of TWL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akshara Posted October 26, 2003 Share Posted October 26, 2003 I'm from the original EF:Voyager CTF community, so I've had prior experience with competitive CTF play. JK2 s/o CTF never really worked for me, mainly because it seemed unbalanced and too difficult for average players - as if it were really meant to have the other weapons or something. With JA, I've played several s/o CTF games online (I actually think one of them was on Chop Shop?), and it's actually a whole lot more enjoyable. Seemed very competitive, and with a good team using some defensive strategy we were able to get our flag back and stop the FC with no problem. New people seemed to get into it more, and the scores were really close. But instead, you gotta chase him with a lightsaber and hardly any tactical teamwork other than everyone on your team chasing the FC in a giant mob, hoping to hit him by chance. Hmmm... I guess I don't get the problem... why can't the team who's flag is stolen simply have midfielders who cut off the FC? Or have one or more members on defense who's job is to Force Pull/Push the FC until someone catches them? And why would any experienced team allow everyone to chase the FC like a giant mob, when two or three can cover it? I've personally chased down or cutoff and returned the flag several times, or pulled him into a group of teamates - it wasn't really that difficult, and simply required that I ration my force pool... the FC's gonna run out of force at some point as well, you know. Do the league servers bump up the force regen time or something? It's just going to require learning a little different strategy at first, but it's totally possible for a good team to catch the FC. I'm a little surprised that league players, who have advanced experience is this arena, would actually be complaining about this. You'd think they would enjoy a little challenge after two years of playing the same thing over and over again. Wanna talk about messing up CTF? The devs of Elite Force 2 (Ritual) actually released a CTF mode based on total score, not flag captures. So the team with the most kills won, regardless of whether you captured 6 flags and they only had 1. It was ridiculous.... point being, it could be a whole lot worse. Out of the box, I'm enjoying JA's s/o CTF much more than I did with JO. Great fun.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainJackZ Posted October 26, 2003 Share Posted October 26, 2003 So, an average player can't be good at playing jk2? Then what they do is become not an average player. We all started just like you, know idea what we were doing. We've all come a long way from there, but it takes time and practice. You can't expect to be good at a game the minute you take it out of the box, so why would u think this would be the case with s/o ctf in jk2? Sure you can do it in JA, but there really is no skill or teamwork required in JA. If you have the staff and ur returning, consider your job done. It can do more damage than anything else, even though it's one of the fastest moves. Consider this and tell me if it makes sense to you, someone with staff slashes me once, and I'm dead. I try that with the much slower, whch should be stronger, strong style, and it barely does any damage at all. That's just stupid. It really does take no skill to play JA when ur doing saber only. Even rage dfa's do absoloutely nothing now. I reallly do not enjoy playing this game. I'll probably stick with jk2 until raven release a path, or at least the sdk soo good modders can improve the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g//anarki Posted October 26, 2003 Share Posted October 26, 2003 Originally posted by Akshara Hmmm... I guess I don't get the problem... why can't the team who's flag is stolen simply have midfielders who cut off the FC? Or have one or more members on defense who's job is to Force Pull/Push the FC until someone catches them? And why would any experienced team allow everyone to chase the FC like a giant mob, when two or three can cover it? I've personally chased down or cutoff and returned the flag several times, or pulled him into a group of teamates - it wasn't really that difficult, and simply required that I ration my force pool... the FC's gonna run out of force at some point as well, you know. Do the league servers bump up the force regen time or something? Because in competition play, the FC will almost always have an energizer or two or maybe a healer, with absorb and speed on, making it impossible to kill/pull/push the FC off of a ledge (which in JK2 was made possible by kicks) and BTW, with the untactical comment about it, I was talking about NF CTF. And no, force regen stays at default (200) on league/ladder games. It's just going to require learning a little different strategy at first, but it's totally possible for a good team to catch the FC. I'm a little surprised that league players, who have advanced experience is this arena, would actually be complaining about this. You'd think they would enjoy a little challenge after two years of playing the same thing over and over again. Yes, a good team may be able to catch up to the FC but how about two evenly or closely matched teams? Stalemate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted October 26, 2003 Share Posted October 26, 2003 I assume you guys are using g_saberdamagescale 2 right? I guess another possible solution would simply to disable team heal or team energize (or both) until a better solution is found. I suggested CTY and Amidala suggested upping the game speed, but it seems nobody wanted to go for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blankie Posted October 26, 2003 Share Posted October 26, 2003 The best solution would be just keep playing JO. I was thinking about it and aside from 2 new saber styles and the nerfs the S/O CTF community is complaining about... nothing will change. Same force powers (except the grip nerf they want removed) Same saber attacks (except specials costing force which they want removed and katas that won't hit a flag runner anyways) No Kick (which they want re-added) New maps (which they hate, -elevators, spawns, health, etc... you could port the maps anyways I think) I guess my question is... why does the S/O CTF community WANT to play JA? For the record, I hope kick will be re-added but based on raven's past patching experience... I won't hold my breath. Blank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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