Should Same Sex Marriage Be Allowed?

[SkinWalker]

Originally posted by Hiroki

Christians - true ones, anyway, do not go around hitting them with bats, or protesting againts them.

 

I, for one, find it interesting that whenever a secularist, humanist, agnostic, etc. points out the attrocities that have been committed in the name of religion (particularly christianity), someone steps up and says "true christians wouldn't do that" or "they're not true christians, so it doesn't matter."

 

The fact remains: many, many people bash, hate, kill, maim, ostracize, shun, legislate, etc, etc. based on "christian dogmatic belief."

 

You may not think of them as "true christians," but they think of themselves that way. That's what matters.

[toms]

Originally posted by Hiroki

Christians may not hang around with them, because that WOULD go againts the morals in the Bible.

 

Er, did you read the same bible i read?

I don't remember jesus ever saying you shouldn't hang around with those who are different.

I seem to remember him saying that there is no point in only loving your friends and hating your enemies, as there is no reward in that.

I seem to remember him saying "love your enemy".

I seem to remember him helping, accepting and forgiving those who were about to kill him.

I seem to remember him saving prostitutes and other "undesirables" from persecution and even hanging out with them.

 

Not that homosexuals are even your enemy, what they do has NO EFFECT WHATSOEVER on wat anyone else does. They aren't the ones saying "be like us, don't be different".

 

Somehow, i can't see jesus being very happy with people ostracizing any group of people. If he could love his enemies, maybe you could hang out with some people who are different. There might be more reward in that. just a thought.

[Master_Ginn]

Don't get mad, but this is how i look at things.

 

Hate the sin, not the sinner.

[Kain]

Isn't that a bit...odd, Feanaro? If someone killed your brother/sister/mother/father, you would hate them, not the fact that they commited it(well, you'd hate them more atleast).

 

Anywho, this a request about this topic: Can someone find the exact quote and line that states that the Bible is against Homosexuality?

[SkinWalker]

Well... most of the supersitious bias comes from 1 Corinthians 6:9

 

"Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,..."

 

The interesting thing about that passage is that "idolaters" and "fornicators" are mentioned before homosexuals, yet I don't see a lot of bashing guys who like to pick up girls with muscle cars... the care with those nice "spinners" on the wheels is the idol... the fornication comes later.

 

Also, I'd be willing to bet there's far more adultery going on than homosexuality... even among the gay bashers.

 

 

The other source of mythology used to support the hatred of gays is in 1 Timothy 1:8-11

 

"But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching, according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted."

 

Source

 

NEW AMERICAN STANDARD BIBLE (1995). THE LOCKMAN FOUNDATION

LA HABRA, CA

[Master_Ginn]

Isn't that a bit...odd, Feanaro? If someone killed your brother/sister/mother/father, you would hate them, not the fact that they commited it(well, you'd hate them more atleast).

You know i don't know what i would do if that happened. Idon't know if anybody really knows what to do or think or feel after someones been murdered. All i was trying to say was that i don't hate Homosexuals. I don't like homosexuality.

[lukeskywalker1]

Well... most of the supersitious bias comes from 1 Corinthians 6:9

 

The other source of mythology used to support the hatred of gays is in 1 Timothy 1:8-11

 

Right, but those biblical quotes dont say anything about hating, or bashing them.

 

The interesting thing about that passage is that "idolaters" and "fornicators" are mentioned before homosexuals, yet I don't see a lot of bashing guys who like to pick up girls with muscle cars... the care with those nice "spinners" on the wheels is the idol... the fornication comes later.

 

Excellant point.

 

Also, I'd be willing to bet there's far more adultery going on than homosexuality... even among the gay bashers.

 

Yeah, your probably right, but they are not trying to make adultery a life style, now are they? They have freedom of speech, religion, press.... Whats next, freedom of sex?

 

Let me set this straight...

The reason Christians are not for homosexuality:

 

The Bible says its wrong. Why? God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. Its like this:

 

There are 3 people. One of those people decides to buy the other two gifts. They both recieved different things. So, one person gets one thing, the other person gets another thing. The person who bought the stuff for them is happy. But all of a sudden, the two people decide to switch gifts! One says, I dont want what he gave me, but I want what he gave you, and the other person says the same thing so they switch. God made man to be with woman, its like woman was a 'gift' to man (kind of....... for the example) but the man says no! I dont want that, I want this (another man, that God didnt intend for man to have.)

 

Hopefully, you understand the christian perspective better now.

 

In fact, homosexuality is helpful, because that's a pair of humans who aren't going to be contributing to the world's over population.

 

Not so true anymore, considering they are trying to get lesbians impregnated now. (like women having sex, and having babies...)

 

Remember people, just because someone hates gay people, doesnt mean its a christian. By bashing christians for this, you only lower yourself to the level that your trying to stop! (like you say that christians should just leave gays alone, or maybe not christians, but people in general, but yet, you [some of you] bash the people who you think bash) The bad part about it is, you dont just bash the one specific person who is doing the bashing, the person who is most likley misguided, you bash the whole group! (When I say misguided, im talking about morals, you know... when to draw the line, just because he thinks hes right, doesnt mean that he should force it down the other persons throat, or attack that person for a different opinion)

 

Just because I say that I think homosexuality is wrong, and a sin, doesnt mean im being mean, or attacking that person in any way. I think murdering is wrong, if you murder someone, and I says its wrong, am I attacking you?

 

Maybe im attacking homosexuality, but not the homosexuals. Just like people said in the 'why is it ok to bash christianity thread': Im not bashing the people, just the religion. Christianity is a part of my lifestyle, just as homosexuality is his. Can we agree to this? Its like, 'hate the sin, not the sinner'

 

Dont get me wrong, I know what your saying, homosexuality is a lifestyle, that one cannot choose. I dont believe it. I believe God made us, and with his help we can overcome sin. If there is some kind of birth 'difference' in peoples brains, then that would mean that God dileberatly made that person to disobey him. Thats just not how God is.

[Ray Jones]

Originally posted by lukeskywalker1

Yeah, your probably right, but they are not trying to make adultery a life style, now are they? They have freedom of speech, religion, press.... Whats next, freedom of sex?

 

yap.

 

There are 3 people. One of those people decides to buy the other two gifts. They both recieved different things. So, one person gets one thing, the other person gets another thing. The person who bought the stuff for them is happy. But all of a sudden, the two people decide to switch gifts! One says, I dont want what he gave me, but I want what he gave you, and the other person says the same thing so they switch. God made man to be with woman, its like woman was a 'gift' to man (kind of....... for the example) but the man says no! I dont want that, I want this (another man, that God didnt intend for man to have.)

 

if i got it right then this what youwoant to tell us is that gay guys try to be women and gay girls try to be man? that is mainly not true. most gays just prefer the same sex for having sex or relationships. thats why its called "homosexuality". there is nothing they choose what 'god' didnt intend for them. what is intended for whom anyways?

 

Hopefully, you understand the christian perspective better now.

 

yes.

 

 

 

Remember people, just because someone hates gay people, doesnt mean its a christian.

 

that may be true. but if i get this right, (all?) christians are against homosexuality.

 

Just because I say that I think homosexuality is wrong, and a sin, doesnt mean im being mean, or attacking that person in any way. I think murdering is wrong, if you murder someone, and I says its wrong, am I attacking you?

 

in both cases it's not an attack, it's more likely telling an opinion.

 

Maybe im attacking homosexuality, but not the homosexuals.

 

by excluding them from common rights you are bashing them.

 

Dont get me wrong, I know what your saying, homosexuality is a lifestyle, that one cannot choose. I dont believe it. I believe God made us, and with his help we can overcome sin. If there is some kind of birth 'difference' in peoples brains, then that would mean that God dileberatly made that person to disobey him. Thats just not how God is.

 

but it's just how humans are. you like things or not. you like people or not. you dont choose on purpose all the time.

[rccar328]

Remember people, just because someone hates gay people, doesnt mean its a christian. By bashing christians for this, you only lower yourself to the level that your trying to stop!

It's the height of intolerance by the people who claim that tolerance of all views is the be-all and end-all of moral good.

 

But in reality, it's just a form of selective tolerance.

[lukeskywalker1]

Finally. Why is homosexuality wrong?! I got the answere. (at least for men)

 

Your killing potential life (like masterbation) the sperm is ment to fertilize the egg, but if not used for that purpose, its like your wasting it... therefore, killing potential life. That sperm has the potential to live, but you are stopping it from having a life. Therefore... half-way murder. Just like abortion. murder.

 

God's commandment was 'be fruitful and multiply' and thats not the case in this situation. With women, it still breaks that command I just said.

 

 

I will deal today with one issue that clouds this area. Polls show some people are under the mistaken impression that homosexuality is genetic. This is not so.

 

Some of the confusion came from a study in the early 1990s, which held that if a homosexual had an identical twin, there was a 50/50 chance his twin was also gay. It was later pointed out that this actually showed just the opposite; since these twins not only had identical genes but presumably almost identical upbringings. If homosexuality were genetic, 100 percent of the brothers would be gay.

 

A rare comprehensive study of all twins in Australia showed no difference in the percent of female twins who were both lesbian if the twins were identical or fraternal. If this behavior were genetic, identical twins would be more likely to be both lesbians than fraternal twins. Finally, another study showed daughters of lesbians were five times more likely to be lesbians than sisters of lesbians. People are more genetically similar to their siblings than their parents. If homosexuality were genetically determined, the opposite result would be anticipated.

 

 

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/news/archive/opinion_12971057.shtml

 

 

 

Choice and Homosexuality

 

Question: What does the Bible have to say about the claim of homosexuals today that one's sexual preference is "natural" and not chosen? Are we born with one tendency over the other? What is the cause of homosexuality?

 

Answer: Several factors must be kept in mind here, the first of which is the most basic: God condemns homosexuality. The Scriptures allow no mitigating circumstances but everywhere treats homosexuality as unnatural and sinful. See, for example, Lev. 18:22, 24; 20:13; Rom. 1:18-32; and 1 Cor. 6:9-10. These passages of Scripture, and others like them, establish at least these three conclusions. (1) Homosexuality is rebellion against God. There is no way to speak of any kind of acceptable or "Christian" homosexuality. There is never any allowance for it, and it is never anything but sinful. (2) Homosexuality is contrary to nature. It is a particularly rebellious sin, a violation even of one's own conscience. (3) Homosexuality is worthy of severe judgment. The Mosaic law prescribed the death penalty for this sin. The apostle Paul specified that such people have excluded themselves from the salvation that is in Christ Jesus by their open rebellion and are thereby worthy of just condemnation. However, repentant homosexuals will be forgiven by the Lord God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ like any other sinner.

 

Now to the question of causes. There do seem to be some "immediate" factors which contribute to homosexuality. Researchers have found that faulty family roles have contributed to the practice. For example, many homosexuals come from homes with "smothering mothers," over-dominant mothers, or often-absent and/or disinterested fathers. Others come from homes with physical and/or sexual abuse.

 

However, the fact remains that the Bible condemns homosexuality as rebellion against God and against conscience. The apostle Paul makes the point in Rom. 1 that we have an intuitive awareness of the unnaturalness and evil of this vice; it is a sin that every human being, made in the image of God, recognizes as a perversion of nature and of righteousness. The point seems obvious: homosexuality is unnatural and sinful, and we all know it.

 

Now then let's think about the "I was born that way" excuse. Scripture denies the excuse altogether. But still, there is more to be said. The question, ultimately, is not whether homosexuality comes "naturally." The question is whether it is right or wrong. Consider some similar examples. We all very "naturally" have a possessive and selfish predisposition. Put bluntly, we are born kleptomaniacs. Is theft, therefore, no longer evil? And should society give us the freedom to take what we want from others? Or what if a man claims that it was his "natural" sex drive that caused him to rape? Is rape now an allowable practice? Or what if a man has a natural tendency toward adultery? Should it be approved? What if we say men are born with a tendency to want multiple wives? Should that be allowed also? And what about our "natural" tendency to hatred and violence? Our society today recognizes very clearly our tendency to hatred and violence and goes to great effort to stifle it. But why? Why should it oppose what comes to us naturally? Do you see the question at issue? The question is this: Does a natural or psychological predisposition make a practice righteous? You see, the questions remains one of morality and one of obedience.

 

So then, to practice homosexuality is a choice of the will. Whatever affinity anyone may or may not have for it, to practice it he must choose to do so. Scripture describes it as always and only wrong, and so to choose to practice it is always sin - and known sin at that.

 

http://www.cornerstonechurchofskippack.com/pastorsdesk/questions/qa18.html

 

 

Discuss.

[ET Warrior]

Originally posted by lukeskywalker1

Your killing potential life (like masterbation) the sperm is ment to fertilize the egg, but if not used for that purpose, its like your wasting it... therefore, killing potential life. That sperm has the potential to live, but you are stopping it from having a life. Therefore... half-way murder. Just like abortion. murder.

 

If masturbation is wrong, then I don't wanna be right.

 

 

Furthermore, your argument condemns the use of condoms and or any other contraceptive measure taken to prevent pregnancy. I've never heard of the bible condemning two married heterosexuals who routinely pull out because they aren't ready for kids.

 

 

Consider some similar examples. We all very "naturally" have a possessive and selfish predisposition. Put bluntly, we are born kleptomaniacs. Is theft, therefore, no longer evil? And should society give us the freedom to take what we want from others? Or what if a man claims that it was his "natural" sex drive that caused him to rape? Is rape now an allowable practice? Or what if a man has a natural tendency toward adultery? Should it be approved? What if we say men are born with a tendency to want multiple wives? Should that be allowed also? And what about our "natural" tendency to hatred and violence?

 

I personally have nothing against polygamy. If all three people are willing participants, then they can HAVE AT IT.

All of his OTHER examples, however, are void because in those cases the "predispositions" directly affect and harm other humans who are not willingly participating. Homosexuality does NOT directly affect others and therefore is not even RELATED to his argument.

[Tyrion]

Originally posted by lukeskywalker1

Your killing potential life (like masterbation) the sperm is ment to fertilize the egg, but if not used for that purpose, its like your wasting it... therefore, killing potential life. That sperm has the potential to live, but you are stopping it from having a life. Therefore... half-way murder. Just like abortion. murder.

 

By not having sex every night, you're wasting potential life. Hell, if your wife is pregant, you lose potential life for 9 months! I imagine, using your logic, that sex outside of marriage is alright, since you're half murdering sperm every day if you don't impregnate someone..

 

The last thing the world needs is for us to go out and make more humans. Really, the whole fruitful and abundance phrase was more useful in the industrial age and before, when it was often for at least a third of children to die before adult age.

[lukeiamyourdad]

Remember that you can ejaculate anytime without real provocation. That happens a lot to young kids. Heck we're all a bunch of killers.

 

Going to that logic, a woman going through her period killed a potential life because hell, her egg hadn't been fertilize.

 

Then, when you're trying to have a baby(having sex without a condom in order to have a baby) and fail, you've wasted lots of sperm. Therefore you're a killer.

 

Not all of the spermatozoon are actually impregneting the egg so basically, millions of them were murdered.

 

Stupidest, crappiest logic that has suppose to be gone a long time ago.

[Kain]

Sorry luke, but it looks like that logic has more holes in it than swiss cheese...or Bonny and Clyde...

 

I've brought this up before in another thread, but I'll just repeat myself.

 

Over the course of 2000 years, the Bible has undergone extensive changes. Its been interperted and re-interperted countless times. King's have changed it to suit them better and make their rule seem more like God's command. So, with this knowledge on hand, who among us is to say 'But its always been against gays!'? How do any of us know that Random King didn't have an on-going grudge against a homosexual, so in order to have justification for killing that said homosexual, had the Bible(because as we all know, King's were selected by God) altered to say that the aforementioned homosexual was a 'heretic and blasphemer, a follower of Lucifer!'? Well we don't. The argument 'An original would have survived the alteration' doesn't hold ground because the King would order every Bible in his Kingdom destroyed, and anyone who disobeyed would be a heretic and murdered.

 

Maybe my logic is full of holes, but I haven't had one shown to me yet.

[Master_Ginn]

Maybe my logic is full of holes, but I haven't had one shown to me yet.

Well do you really think God would want His word to change and let those of of us who get it later to get the wrong message? I don't believe that God would let that happen!

[ET Warrior]

Originally posted by Kain

Maybe my logic is full of holes, but I haven't had one shown to me yet.

 

*points at the hole*

 

that one! right there!

 

 

eehehehehehe

[Tyrion]

Originally posted by Feanaro

Well do you really think God would want His word to change and let those of of us who get it later to get the wrong message? I don't believe that God would let that happen!

 

Well, I don't think god would want his creations killing, stealing, and raping each other, now would we? And we all know how often those sins go on...

[Master_Ginn]

Well, I don't think god would want his creations killing, stealing, and raping each other, now would we? And we all know how often those sins go on...

Right, they do go on. But you just have to have faith. That a great and fair God that He is wouldn't let that happen. Plus murder happened way earlier than the actually Bible was written.

[Tyrion]

Originally posted by Feanaro

Right, they do go on. But you just have to have faith. That a great and fair God that He is wouldn't let that happen. Plus murder happened way earlier than the actually Bible was written.

 

So then in essence, God has failed for us because he isn't stopping the bloodshed, and since he doesn't stop us commiting unthinkable sins, why would he make sure The Bible retained it's integrity?

[Master_Ginn]

Do you think it would be better if God just controlled all our lives and neverlet us think for ourselves or do anything for ourselves? God doesn't make evil people. They become evil. As for the integrity of the Bible, why would God let the integrity of His word go downhill. That wouldn't seem right for those of us who weren't lucky enough to be born a long time ago.....in a galaxy far far away.hehehehe

[Tyrion]

Do you think it would be better if God just controlled all our lives and neverlet us think for ourselves or do anything for ourselves?

 

As a matter of fact, I do. If we're happy, and we haven't experienced free will, then we wouldn't have as much sorrow as we do now.

 

As for the integrity of the Bible, why would God let the integrity of His word go downhill. That wouldn't seem right for those of us who weren't lucky enough to be born a long time ago.....in a galaxy far far away.hehehehe

 

For the same reason that he had let us go evil, I imagine. And if I lived in a galaxy far far away..you could bet a week's pay that I'd be trying to prove that the force wasn't real.

[ET Warrior]

Originally posted by Tyrion

And if I lived in a galaxy far far away..you could bet a week's pay that I'd be trying to prove that the force wasn't real.

 

you BLASPHEMER!!!!

 

 

[lukeskywalker1]

About the sperm thing, im thinking its more deliberate.

 

Then, when you're trying to have a baby(having sex without a condom in order to have a baby) and fail, you've wasted lots of sperm. Therefore you're a killer.

 

No....thats not your fault.

 

Over the course of 2000 years, the Bible has undergone extensive changes. Its been interperted and re-interperted countless times. King's have changed it to suit them better and make their rule seem more like God's command. So, with this knowledge on hand, who among us is to say 'But its always been against gays!'? How do any of us know that Random King didn't have an on-going grudge against a homosexual, so in order to have justification for killing that said homosexual, had the Bible(because as we all know, King's were selected by God) altered to say that the aforementioned homosexual was a 'heretic and blasphemer, a follower of Lucifer!'? Well we don't. The argument 'An original would have survived the alteration' doesn't hold ground because the King would order every Bible in his Kingdom destroyed, and anyone who disobeyed would be a heretic and murdered.

 

http://www.biblestudysite.org/incredib.htm

 

You cant change the past.

 

Not to mention, back then (before the 1500s) they only made about 2 bibles per year. Only Nobles, or rich land owners, or monarchs could read (in the areas where christianity was strongest)

 

Look at history, when a monarch went against the catholic church (i dont believe in catholism, but im using this to show a point) the peasants and town people revolted. I seem to recall a few English kings were killed due to things like that. Can a king stop a thousand angry peasents? Would he even try, or just give the people what they want? And things for sure, back then, religion was what most people had, and didnt want to lose, or be changed. At least not for the desires of a monarch, or a few other people.

 

Well do you really think God would want His word to change and let those of of us who get it later to get the wrong message? I don't believe that God would let that happen!

 

Exactly (not to mention, if you dont know its a sin, your not held accountable untill you know it is.) For example, lets say I didnt know lying was wrong. So, I lie. Im not accountable. But, lets say a week later someone tells me lying is wrong, I then know, and should repent.

 

So then in essence, God has failed for us because he isn't stopping the bloodshed, and since he doesn't stop us commiting unthinkable sins, why would he make sure The Bible retained it's integrity?

 

God hasnt failed us, we have failed Him. He wants all the people He can get, but He wont force himself on someone. He allows us to have freewill. When did he say that he will stop the bloodshed? (and please.. if you look in the bible, dont take anything out of context)

[Tyrion]

Originally posted by lukeskywalker1 No....thats not your fault.

 

But God, through inaction, has let the innocent would-be souls die...if nothing else, I would think that god's a tad bit cruel for allowing the deaths of a million fresh souls.

 

 

Exactly (not to mention, if you dont know its a sin, your not held accountable untill you know it is.) For example, lets say I didnt know lying was wrong. So, I lie. Im not accountable. But, lets say a week later someone tells me lying is wrong, I then know, and should repent.

 

I feel a whole lot safer at night knowing God would rather have his book be unspoilled, than to make sure we all wouldn't be killed or raped.

 

 

God hasnt failed us, we have failed Him. He wants all the people He can get, but He wont force himself on someone. He allows us to have freewill. When did he say that he will stop the bloodshed? (and please.. if you look in the bible, dont take anything out of context)

 

Well..God has evil in him, or is imperfect. He was able to create us to become evil..and we're all supposedly a part of him, so he's also evil. A trurly benevolent God would stop the bloodshed, stop the mass commitance of sin. Hypothetical situation: You see a raping accuring on the streets. You have the power to not just stop it, but reverse time so that the vitcim never knew, and the raper would never do it. Isn't it evil to allow it to happen, to allow the raper to be filled with hate and lust?

 

Ultimately, it's all because of God. He's allowed his creations, us, to sin. He's allowed us to be corrupted by Satan, instead of turning satan into another benevolent creature. The Good and Evil in this world is because of God, he is responsible for the happiness we all get..and the evil that corrupts and torture us.

[lukeskywalker1]

Well..God has evil in him, or is imperfect. He was able to create us to become evil..and we're all supposedly a part of him, so he's also evil. A trurly benevolent God would stop the bloodshed, stop the mass commitance of sin. Hypothetical situation: You see a raping accuring on the streets. You have the power to not just stop it, but reverse time so that the vitcim never knew, and the raper would never do it. Isn't it evil to allow it to happen, to allow the raper to be filled with hate and lust?

 

I know what you mean, and everyone wants bad things not to happen, including God. Solomon said:

 

 

Ecclesiastes Chapter 8

 

16 I tried to understand all that happens on earth. I saw how busy people are, working day and night and hardly ever sleeping. 17 I also saw what God has done. Nobody can understand what God does here on earth. No matter how hard people try to understand it, the cannot. Even if wise people say they can understand it, they cannot; no one can really understand it.

 

NCV Bible

 

Of course God could do someting, but once again, remember we have free will! If he stopped someone from raping, or murdering someone, he would be interfering with free will. He doesnt want bad things to happen, but, people do them. Is He the one to blame?

 

 

Ecclesiastes Chapter 3

 

16 I also saw here on earth:

Where there should have been justice,

there was evil;

where there should have been right,

there was wrong.

17 I said to myself,

God has planned a time for everything

and every action,

so he will judge both good people and bad.

 

NCV Bible

 

 

We dont understand God, just like we dont understand why certain things happen.

 

Ultimately, it's all because of God. He's allowed his creations, us, to sin. He's allowed us to be corrupted by Satan, instead of turning satan into another benevolent creature. The Good and Evil in this world is because of God, he is responsible for the happiness we all get..and the evil that corrupts and torture us.

 

Well, Satan is the father of evil. I know God made Satan, but still, your son could sin, but does that mean your responsible? Like in the verses up above, we dont understand God.

 

I said in another thread, God wanted true love. Not just mindless brainless love. At least this way he can see who really loves him, despite there evil nature.

 

 

Isn't it evil to allow it to happen, to allow the raper to be filled with hate and lust?

 

The raper can conquere his hate and lust, if he just simply asks.

 

Ok, I make it sound easy. Its not. It takes prayer, time, devotion, and a strong will, trust, and faith in God. Sort of like stopping an addiction to a drug, or alcohol.