Did i miss something? (why the anger towards honor/RPGers?)

[Tosh_UK]

The Best thing about JA is most Fanboys left JO2 for it. and now JO2 servers (well what servers are left) are not as bad.

 

Codes and such like in a game are a bit lame.. the players i show Respect to are players that have earned it. I DO not tell a player hey show me respect.... as if he treats me with non, he shall receive non. dos it bother me NO. at the end of the day, i want to have a good game and try score loads of points.

 

some players need the honour code, because they cant play with out it. player that i respect are players that play the game. cap or kill every thing else don't matter.

[AxVegetA]

Originally posted by Solo4114

Ok, a few thoughts on this whole debate/controversy.

 

My recollection of the Sabreist Code was that it came out of two mindsets and was equally adopted by the two different mindsets. On the one hand, some folks felt that it was a good thing to show respect to your fellow gamers during a game, as you'd hope they'd show to you. Hence, the code. Others, I suspect, adopted it because it typing "Hey! SC on this server!" is quicker than typing "Do over! Do over! The sun was in my eyes! No fair!" There's also a minor third camp that was more circumscribed than the first group -- they felt that certain moves in the game or force powers were unbalanced/broken/buggy/no fun to play with or against. For example, the DFA prior to 1.3, and the backstab from 1.3 to 1.4. These were moves that were continually spammed by players, and it really DID make the game no fun to play, but plenty of folks said "Hey, long as I win, i don't care." So, some folks said, "Screw that, I'd rather have fun than win all the time using a move that is no fun -- I promise not to spam lame moves like that unless and until they're fixed."

 

Now, from my point of view, showing respect to your fellow players is fine and a good thing. By the same token, not spamming a move that might as well be considered an exploit is also ok (and I think, at this point, it's pretty clear that the backstab at least in 1.3 WAS an exploit, much like the blue lunge in midair to stop yourself from falling was -- an unintended oversight in programming which led to the player who used it gaining a significant advantage). The "I'm pissed because I can't win, so I'll take any excuse I can to complain" crowd, however, I have no patience for.

 

In response to this argument came the Anti-Sabreist code, which basically can be summed up in the phrase "No holds barred" from what I can remember. Basically, if it was in the game and you didn't have to hack things to do it, knock yourself out -- it's fair. For those of you who DON'T remember, though, Artifex himself ended up posting a grand "resignation/I quit" thread about how the game just >shock! amazement!< wasn't any fun anymore when it basically devolved into who could spam pull/kick/backstab or some similar combination the fastest. I had very little pity for him when he posted it, and I still have very little pity for people who have the "win by any means necessary" and then become disgruntled when they find that "any means necessary" basically boils down to being a one-trick-pony. Like I said, the two reasons why I sort of supported the sabreist code was because I believe in treating my fellow gamers with respect (even if I don't actually respect them), and because I viewed a lot of the one-shot-kill moves as pointless, and hoped to find a place where I could get a more entertaining fight (thus, no backstabs, DFAs, or any of the other broken-ass moves that JO had).

 

So, people pissed and moaned about this stuff for a while, I got bored with JO, moved on, and when I came back, discovered a whole new breed of loonies out there -- the RPGers. Now, first off, I'm an RPGer, but NOT in this game. I like Star Wars Galaxies, I enjoy a good game of AD&D, I like Fallout, etc. I never understood what the hell people would DO as RPGers in an FPS engine. There's no Game Master, there's no plot, it's basically just a graphical chat room. Even more so than the accusations that people make of SWG. At the very least, in those games, you can craft thing, explore planets, etc. In JO, you're limited to the map you're playing and the weapons and powers in the game which are specifically designed for one purpose -- FPS gaming. So, I never really "got" the RPG thing IN THIS GAME, and frankly found it rather stupid.

 

Now we have the "honorz" players, who've basically taken the SC and expanded upon it to the point where ANY time that your sabre is down, you're not allowed to attack the guy, using ANY move that isn't a basic one is somehow "laming", killing someone while typing is evil, using most force powers are evil, etc., etc. It basically takes what was already a rather extreme position to the realm of the ridiculous.

 

So, rather than bitch and whine about which group sucks the most (competitive players, honorz players, SC players, ASC players, RPG players, etc.) I think we need to focus on WHY these things happened. To me, the answer is both simple and complex. On the surface, it's simple -- Star Wars is, for many people, a personal experience. We all enter a game like this with certain expectations of how it will work and how it SHOULD work. We all show up with a particular set of preconceived notions of how close to the films things should be.

 

Where problems crop up is in the way the game has been executed. And frankly, aside from the SP experience (and even there), I've yet to play a game that can accurately and satisfyingly give me a lightsabre combat experience. There have been design problems in this game since JK1 in terms of sabre and force combat. Certain force powers always seemed somehow...off...although I was much more forgiving of this in JK1 (mostly because I was so damn happy to have a sabre at all -- by the way, I made a sabre patch for the original DF that was pretty popular for a while -- over 15000 downloads, which rather surprised me). JK1 I got tired of because no one played it where I could get a decent connection, ASE didn't exist when I was playing it, and I've never really enjoyed DM gaming (which was pretty much all there was -- CTF in that game sucked).

 

When JO came out, I was eager to play, and rather enjoyed the SP portion. The MP portion, however played entirely differently and (as of 1.2) felt more like jousting than a real sabre contest. In addition to that, you were limited to either full guns or no guns (as the game didn't ship with any class-based mods for mercs vs. jedi style action), so using a sabre basically became pointless in the game. Dueling sucked because you had to sit around in line to fight, but FFAs were worse because you could only engage in one "duel" at a time on the server (if memory serves). And again, CTF was lame. JO added new problems in the serious imbalance towards the dark side in 1.2 (absorb was worthless as all you had to do was wait it out then spam away with lighting), and EVERY version of the game had problems with uber moves, which frankly I don't think ever belonged in this game in the first place.

 

When JA came out, I was reluctant to buy it because, well, JO had been such a disappointment in terms of MP for me. Raven just NEVER got it right with that game. I found out that JA MP wasn't a whole lot better though. The limit on katas was nice, but for some reason, the sabre fighting just never really felt right. Red stance was too slow and clumsy, yellow was ineffective, blue was too fast and weak, and it all just felt like so much button mashing. I never like Mortal Kombat and I didn't particularly want to have to learn a new version of it each time a new Jedi game came out.

 

My point here is that it's THIS kind of stuff that I think is to blame for the codes, honorz, etc. Everyone wants a Star Wars experience the way THEY feel it should be, or at least they don't feel that what they got IS the Star Wars experience. so in that sense, I blame LucasArts and Raven for some of the community reaction -- they've never quite been able to give us a game that really FELT like Star Wars, at least based on how everyone reacted to the games. However, I only blame them because they bit off more than they could chew -- you really just can't give people a swordfighting experience the way you can a gun experience with the old mouse/keyboard combo. I doubt that, short of giving people some kind of pseudo-sword control device, that you could ever really do swordfighting justice in a video game. JK1 never felt right, JO never felt right, and JA never felt right in this regard. I always felt limited, constrained, whatever by the "moves" I could do and the way they were executed.

 

But think about it. Do you really think the "honorz" guys, the ASC guys, etc. would've gone to the point where they create some goofy code if 1.) the game didn't have buggy moves, 2.) the game was a closer approximation of the SW universe, 3.) sabre fighting was more engrossing than it is, etc.? I don't think so. I think people would've been too busy playing the game and having fun to bother with that crap. When you look at games like UT, Q3, RTCW, etc. you don't hear people complaining as much about "honor" or what have you. this is because those games are more engrossing, largely because the engines can let you do what you want to do. So, you get people trying to approximate the experience they want to have by creating rules and then imposing them upon others.

 

This is also where the problem lies -- people try to join servers then force OTHER people to play the way THEY want to play, regardless of the server rules. Now this is NOT something that's limited to the Jedi games series. This is EVERYWHERE in online FPS gaming. Go on a BF1942 server sometime and you'll see people complain about nade spam, spawn camping, plane camping, etc. I've seen this in RTCW too. It's just the nature of online gaming.

 

Ultimately, I think there are two angles by which we can SOLVE these problems.

 

1.) Create a Star Wars FPS game that does a better job of evoking Star Wars than what previous games have. Personally, as far as lightsabre combat goes, I'd like to see more subtle differentiation between the stances, not as many combos, more predictability/control over your sabre, and perhaps a game that uses the Seven Forms method of sabre combat (which has been described before and I won't bore you with now).

 

2.) Play on servers that are admined, or accept that it's anarchy out there. I play on a set of servers called the WOLF servers (where I also admin) for BF1942. It's great. It's a community of guys who have gotten together, adopted certain server rules, and enforce them. When we go to other servers, we play by THEIR rules, and expect people to do the same when they come to our servers. It makes gaming MUCH more fun when you don't have to fight with people about how the game should be played. So that'd be my major advice to people out there now -- play on servers with like-minded individuals. Follow the servers' rules. If the server has voting and you don't want to risk being voted off, leave. If the server is an ASC server, an SC server, an RPG server or whatever, go in there and play as you would normally. In terms of general etiquette, I'd suggest that, if the server HAS no rules, then there ARE no rules and there is correspondingly no such thing as "laming" ON THAT SERVER -- truly, anything goes there. So don't go in trying to force people to play a particular way (and if there are no rules, just run around and kill people -- don't try to turn it into EverQuest Lite). On the other hand, if EVERYONE in a server is doing X, don't intentionally piss them off by doing Y. Treat others the way you'd want to be treated. If you were calmly enjoying your no-holds-barred FFA game and two guys came in and started yelling at everyone to RPG, you'd get pissed just as much as they probably do by your showing up and saying "QUIT STANDING AROUND AND KILL SOMETHING!!"

 

If none of these things are an option for you, do what I did. Stop playing the game and find a different game. Honestly, JA doesn't do a whole lot for me anymore. It's too random, the sabre combat bores me, the guns are STILL quake ripoffs, CTF is still lame, and Siege Mode isn't much better (usually because there's too few people). I get my MP kicks from BF1942 now and from SWG. Maybe when they come out with a better Jedi MP game I'll play that, but I'm going to be VERY wary of it for a long time. I still doubt that they can really create a fun, non-Mortal-Kombat experience where you don't HAVE uber moves, where your stances are more subtly different than simply "This stance takes swings that last for five full seconds and have a three second recovery, but which hit for 50% damage, whereas that stance takes swings that last for .5 seconds, recover in .25, and hit for 5% damage". When they can give me more control over my sabre, and make it feel less like a glowing whifflebat, maybe I'll enjoy it more. 'Til then, there's always the Galactic Conquest mod for BF1942, and the upcoming Galactic Battles game. Here's hoping they're better than what we've got here.

 

dude....................

how many people read this?

[Kurgan]

You'd be surprised! I get people reading my long posts (or pretending to) so I guess so long as they're angry enough or you're saying something interesting enough, yeah!

 

The fact is the "Saberist Code" and the "honor codes" are heavily promoted by sore losers and "power trip" admins. Likewise the people who oppose them are largely people interested in playing competatively or else simply playing the game "as is" (ie: without special rules, just enjoying what the developers created).

 

Sadly many advocates of the honor codes feel that they have the right, nay the mandate, the OBLIGATION to convert the entire community to their way of thinking and that anyone who disagrees deserves to be PUNISHED (Ie: kickbanned and punished with admin mod commands; not to mention cussed out, blacklisted and bad-mouthed on forums).

 

For better or for worse the sour grapes attitude of the "honor" advocates has created a backlash that can be seen on these forums and on a few others, leading to some admins and mod makers taking notice, saying "enough is enough" and refusing to support the honor crowd's incessant whining and demands for more restrictions on gameplay.

[Pnut_Man]

Code of the Saberists

 

(Rip of the Code of the Jedi --originally inspired by a special dutch person with the alias of CHAIRWALKER)

 

There is no fighting; there is chatting.

There is no dueling; there is bowing.

There is no 'pwner'; there is 'WTF J00 LAMERZ!11!'

There is no fun; there is only boredom.

[Kurgan]

LoL! *applauds*

[Blue_Lightsaber]

Occasionally I like to come to the bar (if there is one in the map), and pretend I'm getting food and drinks. Sometimes I "rob" the place and we get into a duel. Sometimes we duel over bar ownership. Occasionally we get the admin to spawn some taun tauns and we joust. Sometimes he even pops a mutant rancor in there. It's kinda fun, but despite what you think, I'm not RPing always when I'm on JA. I like to duel, ffa, and all that.

 

I can understand the view of the anti-honor, anti-rpg guys, they want to actually play and not wait around for ppl to stop chatting. I say they are entitled to that view, but when they start deliberatly trying to ruin your fun, that's when I get mad. I can see if I'm chatting or something and the guy was already doing an unstoppable move (i.e. kata, butterfly) and he kills me, but what sense does it make just to kill someone at the bar just for the fun of it? Why not kill the ffa'ing players? Some people like to RP 100% of the time while on JA. I'd say I like to RP 50% of the time, and fight 50% of the time.

 

When someone comes over and attacks me with saber down while I'm Rping, I don't reply with "OMGG JOOO HAXX0rs!". I go back, more prepared, and if he attacks me again, I dodge it, and cut off his head. You can be pro-honor and still not be a whiner.

 

I almost never lame unless I see one of those punks who deliberitly lame chatters/saber down people, chatting or has their back turned, just to see how they like it, and most of the time, they don't. I'm one of those people that love to give the bad guys a taste of their own medicine.

 

So the point of this post, is that everyone is entitled to their opinion. I think it's ok to be anti honor, but when you start deliberatly trying to ruin people's fun, that's when conflict starts. There is absolutly no need whatsoever, to attack someone who is clearly not trying to fight.

 

That's just my view on the situation.

[Druid Bremen]

Originally posted by Blue_Lightsaber

Occasionally I like to come to the bar (if there is one in the map), and pretend I'm getting food and drinks. Sometimes I "rob" the place and we get into a duel. Sometimes we duel over bar ownership. Occasionally we get the admin to spawn some taun tauns and we joust. Sometimes he even pops a mutant rancor in there. It's kinda fun, but despite what you think, I'm not RPing always when I'm on JA. I like to duel, ffa, and all that.

 

I can understand the view of the anti-honor, anti-rpg guys, they want to actually play and not wait around for ppl to stop chatting. I say they are entitled to that view, but when they start deliberatly trying to ruin your fun, that's when I get mad. I can see if I'm chatting or something and the guy was already doing an unstoppable move (i.e. kata, butterfly) and he kills me, but what sense does it make just to kill someone at the bar just for the fun of it? Why not kill the ffa'ing players? Some people like to RP 100% of the time while on JA. I'd say I like to RP 50% of the time, and fight 50% of the time.

 

When someone comes over and attacks me with saber down while I'm Rping, I don't reply with "OMGG JOOO HAXX0rs!". I go back, more prepared, and if he attacks me again, I dodge it, and cut off his head. You can be pro-honor and still not be a whiner.

 

I almost never lame unless I see one of those punks who deliberitly lame chatters/saber down people, chatting or has their back turned, just to see how they like it, and most of the time, they don't. I'm one of those people that love to give the bad guys a taste of their own medicine.

 

So the point of this post, is that everyone is entitled to their opinion. I think it's ok to be anti honor, but when you start deliberatly trying to ruin people's fun, that's when conflict starts. There is absolutly no need whatsoever, to attack someone who is clearly not trying to fight.

 

That's just my view on the situation.

 

Ditto.

[Druid_Allanon]

Originally posted by Blue_Lightsaber

Occasionally I like to come to the bar (if there is one in the map), and pretend I'm getting food and drinks.

 

I never did like doing that, IMO I think it's childish. I'd much rather be dueling or ffaing.

 

I'm not RPing always when I'm on JA

 

Same. I don't like RPing either.

 

I can understand the view of the anti-honor, anti-rpg guys, they want to actually play and not wait around for ppl to stop chatting. I say they are entitled to that view, but when they start deliberatly trying to ruin your fun, that's when I get mad.

 

It's even more fun to go to a honor-server and lame It'll really make you laugh to see whiners in action. Don't get me wrong, I'm an 'honor' player too, but whiners are really hilarious, especially those that spam 'LAMERZ!' like 10 times when they only get lamed once.

 

You can be pro-honor and still not be a whiner..

 

I applaud you for that. Here's a living example of the TRUE honor player.

[Kurgan]

If you want to role play or anything besides not play the game, you should go to a private server devoted to that sort of thing.

 

Otherwise you shouldn't complain if you get fragged on a normal server doing something you're not "supposed" to be doing. ; )

[Druid_Allanon]

Originally posted by Kurgan

If you want to role play or anything besides not play the game, you should go to a private server devoted to that sort of thing.

 

Otherwise you shouldn't complain if you get fragged on a normal server doing something you're not "supposed" to be doing. ; )

 

Amen to that. RPing is childish IMO.

[Crow_Nest]

Originally posted by Druid Allanon

some guy couldn't kill me with lightning because I had absorb on. He(or she?) was pissed and called me a cheater, saying my computer has auto absorb on or something like that. I was like 'ROFL'. Before you call others an honour nub, know this: those honour people who don't whine when they get killed aren't honour nubs. Those that whine, my friend, are the real honour nubs.

 

Hehe the bots in kurgans server has auto absorb. and like they have 2x faster force regen time no fair!

 

Im one of those honorz players. I remembered this guy at jk3files (dont wanna say out his name) he was so damn annoying!!!

 

I was fighting some guys on the JA gas mine, pushed him together with some guys and fell. Then he called me a lamer and stuff. But he had saber on and was fighting with me, what a n00b. He lamed other people and said those offensive/abusive language. But he was kicked or proberly banned by shroom in the end.

 

No offense to that guy thou.

 

Originally posted by Druid Allanon

Amen to that. RPing is childish IMO.

 

What is RPing?

[Druid_Allanon]

Hehe the bots in kurgans server has auto absorb. and like they have 2x faster force regen time no fair!

 

You lucky bastard. I just SIMPLY can't find Kurgan's server, even though I added the ip to my favourites!

 

What is RPing?

 

Raping. j/k it's roleplaying. Shouting things like 'I'm Darth Vader!' or 'Luke, I am your dad.'

[RamataKahn]

and no, i dont use that buggy ass ASE.[/rant] [/b]

 

That statement right there invalidates anything else you have to say.

[Blue_Lightsaber]

If more people followed honor and there was DRASTICALLY less whining by the pro honor people, JA would be a much better game. Instead it's, "HOWD HE DO THAT OMG I SWARZ THAT I HIT JOO WITH MAH UHBER LEET GLOW STICKKKK" when you win a duel.

 

One time I was in a duel with just one guy. After I beat him in the first round he said good fight, and bowed at the beginning. After about 6 wins, he called me a chicken and stopped bowing and saying good fight. By the 10th win, he was trying to DFA me as I bowed, kill me while I was saying good fight, and crying when he lost.

 

Unfortunatly, another lamer was born that horrible day.

[DarthCobra]

STFU AND FIGHT YOU BOWING IDIOTS!!!

[Kurgan]

I've probably said this one too many times, but I think it's obvious there are better games for RPG players to use within the Star Wars universe.

 

And while they may not be as cheap and "easy" as JA, I think it's wrong (not to mention unfair for the majority of the community) for RPG players to try to shoe-horn what is really a first person shooter with a few melee weapons into the Role Playing genre.

[Druid_Allanon]

Please. Don't think that all of us 'honor' players are noobs that only know how to bow and all that. Just because a few whining nubs are present doesn't mean it applies to all of the 'honor' people. I have quite a few friends who, like I do, don't whine when they get lamed. Instead, they just lame back and have fun. THAT, IMO, is good sportsmanship. Good enough that they didn't whine. JA would be a better community if the non-honor players play the way they want and same for the 'honor' players WITHOUT whining.

[Crow_Nest]

Originally posted by Druid Allanon

You lucky bastard. I just SIMPLY can't find Kurgan's server, even though I added the ip to my favourites!

 

Cause his server is down for like 3 and a half years already

[Prime]

Originally posted by Druid Allanon

JA would be a better community if the non-honor players play the way they want and same for the 'honor' players WITHOUT whining.

I would be so happy with that...

[Luc Solar]

Originally posted by Druid Allanon

Please. Don't think that all of us 'honor' players are noobs that only know how to bow and all that. Just because a few whining nubs are present doesn't mean it applies to all of the 'honor' people.

 

Haven't posted in quite some time....I see nothing has changed since my last visit. (Hi Prime! )

 

I think there's one thing about this honor-thing that not so many have realized. By obeying the honor code YOU are responsible for all the crap that is going on. Generally speaking it does not matter whether you whine or not. The mere fact that you have adapted this anti-playing style of playing means that YOU are a major part of the problem.

 

See...when idiots log on, they will assume that the way you play is the right way to play. They assume that there actually are rules in FFA's. They learn to USE these rules to their advantage.

 

You don't see people bitching about "not bowing" in MOHAA or CS, now do you? Why is that? Because there aren't your kind of honor-people in those games giving idiots such awesome tools as "saber down = peace" to ruin the game for everyone else.

 

I know you "real" honor players have good times while playing with like-minded people and usually you don't act like jerks online... but you have to understand that by endorsing honor codes, you have indirectly destroyed the whole game.

 

Why? Because idiots DO whine. Idiots DO abuse all those silly rules. Thanks to honor codes idiots DO ruin the game for all of us who simply want to PLAY and have FUN.

 

Why can't people simply play this friggin game? Why can't I host a server called "NO RULES NO HONOR NO WHINING" and play without being called a lamer with no honour every time I kill someone?

 

Are these honor codes really worth all this bs? Would it too horrible to just play the game like we do every other game?

 

Have honor codes made this community better or worse? Really: think about it for a sec.

[Prime]

Originally posted by Luc Solar

Hi Prime!

Hey Luc! Good to have you back

 

Originally posted by Luc Solar

Have honor codes made this community better or worse? Really: think about it for a sec.

You application of logic has no place in these forums...

 

 

 

[KPM]

I think the reason there are so many honor players is because when a new player joins a game, a real game where people are actully playing the game, they die alot, they really dont know much about the game, and no one likes to lose, deep down, so they move on to another server and see people doing nothing, chatting, a few duels, the new player wins one, kills people in duels more than they did in Free-For-Alls, likes it better, as the player is new, and found themselfs in a "honor" server, honor is the first thing they learn, so when honor is all they know, they will expect the "honor code" applys to everyone. Of course this isn't a fact and not allways like this, it's just my little theory.

 

On another note, honor people are welcome on my server, I love new toys to play with.

[Giddamon]

LOL...I'm glad not to be the only one here to think that RPGers should find a better platform to fullfill their secret dream of being a kickass Jedi. I join the chorus of people saying: drop all of your honour, bow, "saberoff = peace!!!111 " stuff and any other crap which comes into your mind

 

Someone said that UT and Q don't have crap like "honorz" or RPG servers. It's very easy to explain that: in UT and Q communities there aren't depressed morons who play JA wearing a bath-gown and following the "oh so holy Jedi code" coz that make them feel like obi wan and yoda

 

Dudes, if you like to RPG there's Galaxies or maybe if you hate violence (coz apparently in some JA servers there're no fights at all...) you may even try The Sims Online where everything is peace, friends and chat chat chat chat... oh yes, you might also get a date with a cyber dudette, what a triumph!

[KPM]

Or buy a pet dog. They cant talk english, but they won't lame you!

[TK-8252]

The reason that Jedi Outcast/Academy is so full of people wanting to RP as a Jedi and preaching honor is because, well, what's the title of the game?

 

Star Wars Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy

 

What kind of people are you expecting to play a game called Star Wars Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy?

 

Star Wars fans, little kids, Jedi fanatics, role players.

 

If you don't want to deal with the RPers and honor players, don't get a Star Wars Jedi game. Go play, as you mentioned, UT. UT doesn't have Jedi RPers and honor players. Why? Because it's not a Star Wars Jedi game. UT, if my memory serves me correctly, has a rating of M, for Mature, meaning 18 and over. Star Wars Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy has a rating of T, for Teen, meaning 13 and over. This means that in general, a young crowd will be playing Jedi Academy.

 

And DO NOT tell people to go play Star Wars Galaxies. No matter how well it's set up to be a RPG, how are the younger players going to pay the monthly fee? Unless they are really spoiled or have some rich parents, they can't. So where do they go? Star Wars Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy. A Jedi-based game with no monthly fee!