txa1265 Posted January 7, 2004 Share Posted January 7, 2004 As I'm playing through Neverwinter Nights new expansion pack Hordes of the Underdark, which *starts* you at level 12 - 15, and I'm now a level 20 Sorceror, I was thinking about the total of 9 dual class combinations, with 3 Jedi classes, and wondering if they were sufficient, or if people thought there could/should have been more. I was thinking that Guardian is somewhat akin to Paladin, and Consular is something like a Wizard with stats set for 'battle casting'. What is missing (IMO) is something on either end - something like a weapon master, with greatly enhanced direct fighting capabilities, but no ability to use offensive/disabling Force powers. On the other end would be someone like a Sorceror, for whom it would matter little whether or not they even had a saber. I know the greatest fun is the combat with saber and force powers, and I think that Bioware did a great job of providing classes that provide a very wide range of variety in meeting that challenge. I was just thinking it would be fun to have 'fringe' classes - still the same 3 non-Jedi classes, but then 5 Jedi classes. There would also need to be different feats for these classes, and the powers modified - for example, instead of just speed to get extra hits per round, the equivavent of TimeStop would allow the advanced level Force Disciple (or whatever) class to cast a stack of force powers. Similarly, the weapon master Jedi would automatically get extra attacks per round and things like cleave for free. Just a thought ... Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 More options would be nice, and they wouldn't have to deviate too much from the actual Star Wars RPG. From what I understand, there are things called "prestige" classes which are something like subclasses of the main classes. For example, if you were a fighter, you might be able to eventually gain levels as a starfighter ace. As a Jedi, you could become a battlemaster or scholar. IIRC these prestige classes have prerequisites, such as base class level or skill levels. So you would start out as one of the three base classes, and then could eventually gain these subclasses as you went along as sort of a specialization. Then you could really make your character unique. The other big step would be adding various character races. I can see how this would add a lot of complexity though, storywise at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txa1265 Posted January 8, 2004 Author Share Posted January 8, 2004 Prestige classes are exactly that - a form of specialization within a class. You typically get some extras for taking that class, while keeping everything you got in your original class. Not a bad idea. I just think that it would be hard to work within the current 20 level cap. You'd be like a 5/10/5 Scoundrel/Consular/Scholar or something like that ... perhaps it could work ... Originally posted by Prime The other big step would be adding various character races. I can see how this would add a lot of complexity though, storywise at least. Hey - as long as they all spoke the same language done by the same actor, it wouldn't be an issue ... ... oh wait, that's a bad thing ... Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eidospsogos Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 yes it would be hard to work within the 20 level cap. but alot of bioware's expansion packs, and i was pretty sure there was one for NWN that had this feature as well, have epic levels. which allow you to take your character, even within the existing ruleset to level 30. so, they've done it before, and they could do it again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n.kT3M4 Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 Well I'am defiinatly going be saying yes it needs more viraty and I heard that Knights the orginal verison of it of crouse was going have four classes in it there was going be a bounty hunter class a Jedi class were you start out as a jedi so the guestion is where has it all gone now I want be able to be a sith/bounty hunter. :ball: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eidospsogos Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 the plot in this game depends largely on you NOT being a jedi in the beginning. so i personally think what you've heard about the ORIGINAL version is probably just rumor. it is a central element of the plot that you NOT be a jedi in the beginning of the game. and though it would be plausible to work this possibility in, it would take too much re-writing in the beginning of the game for them ever to have considered this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 Originally posted by txa1265 Prestige classes are exactly that - a form of specialization within a class. You typically get some extras for taking that class, while keeping everything you got in your original class. Not a bad idea. I just think that it would be hard to work within the current 20 level cap. You'd be like a 5/10/5 Scoundrel/Consular/Scholar or something like that ... perhaps it could work ... Personnally, I don't think that the 20 level cap is the issue, but the pace at which you advance through the levels. I find that you advance entirely too fast. You can end up at level 20 long before the end of the game. Sometimes it seems like you go up a level after going down three hallways and talking to the ice cream vender. Slower progression would make a 5/10/5 Scoundrel/Consular/Scholar a lot more meaningful, IMO. Originally posted by txa1265 Hey - as long as they all spoke the same language done by the same actor, it wouldn't be an issue ... ... oh wait, that's a bad thing ... I was thinking more of storyline things like romances. Having to take into consideration sex and race would mean a lot more paths to add. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txa1265 Posted January 9, 2004 Author Share Posted January 9, 2004 Originally posted by Prime Personnally, I don't think that the 20 level cap is the issue, but the pace at which you advance through the levels. I find that you advance entirely too fast. You can end up at level 20 long before the end of the game. I know what you're saying ... but at the same time I find it frustrating that in NWN and the expansions you have no hope of reaching maximum level - in NWN I ended up at level 16 or maybe just 17 right at the end, in the SoU expansion I ended up at 13, and in HotU, which opens the level cap to 40 (epic), I extremely doubt I'll even see 30 ... I was thinking more of storyline things like romances. Having to take into consideration sex and race would mean a lot more paths to add. Well, there are some gender things, particularly romantic things. I would have liked more stuff - given the intolerance for aliens in different areas, it would have been interesting to have seen that - and gender bias as well (both directions preferably). Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lil_dude Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 yes, i thought that it was a little limited, but i'm not even done the game yet and have only played 2 of the types Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eidospsogos Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 epic levels would be a must for an expansion in this game, as i reached the cap in KOTOR earlier every time i play it. epic levels in an expansion pack for KOTOR = <- me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n.kT3M4 Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 well good point eidospsogos it would ruin the plot but just alittle I mean come on can't any body none other then myself think that it would be cool to start out as a jedi. dark trooper my favorite espically when runing into pesky rebel scum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted January 13, 2004 Share Posted January 13, 2004 Originally posted by txa1265 I know what you're saying ... but at the same time I find it frustrating that in NWN and the expansions you have no hope of reaching maximum level - in NWN I ended up at level 16 or maybe just 17 right at the end, in the SoU expansion I ended up at 13, and in HotU, which opens the level cap to 40 (epic), I extremely doubt I'll even see 30 ... I can understand that. But I view the Star Wars universe as different from most fantasy universes like D&D (other than the spaceships). IMO, Star Wars is more about "average heroes", and not heroes who become god-like as in D&D. Sure, the Jedi have "magic powers", but they are still anything but omnipotent. I think the 20 lvl cap is enough to represent this. A lvl 30 or 40 character would just be too powerful for the regular "monsters" you would encounter in Star Wars. There are no Balrogs here Originally posted by eidospsogos epic levels would be a must for an expansion in this game Well we won't have to worry about that, since there isn't going to be an expansion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txa1265 Posted January 13, 2004 Author Share Posted January 13, 2004 Originally posted by Prime I can understand that. But I view the Star Wars universe as different from most fantasy universes like D&D (other than the spaceships). IMO, Star Wars is more about "average heroes", and not heroes who become god-like as in D&D. Sure, the Jedi have "magic powers", but they are still anything but omnipotent. I think the 20 lvl cap is enough to represent this. A lvl 30 or 40 character would just be too powerful for the regular "monsters" you would encounter in Star Wars. There are no Balrogs here Perhaps I wasn't clear - it isn't the level 20 cap I have an issue with, it is the relative ease of getting there way before the end of the game, compared to the impossibility of reaching it in NWN and the SoU expansion, despite chasing XP until it feels squeezing blood from a stone! I just think there has to be a happy medium somewhere - I am frustrated in the NWN series for making it too slow to level, and frustrated with KotOR for getting me to level 20 so early. I'm still finishing my 3rd time through (dark side) have been at 20 for a while and still have a while to go - but where is the reward if you are already 20? I'm not *really* frustrated, just one of those little things in life Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted January 14, 2004 Share Posted January 14, 2004 Originally posted by txa1265 Perhaps I wasn't clear - it isn't the level 20 cap I have an issue with, it is the relative ease of getting there way before the end of the game, compared to the impossibility of reaching it in NWN and the SoU expansion, despite chasing XP until it feels squeezing blood from a stone! I just think there has to be a happy medium somewhere - I am frustrated in the NWN series for making it too slow to level, and frustrated with KotOR for getting me to level 20 so early. I'm still finishing my 3rd time through (dark side) have been at 20 for a while and still have a while to go - but where is the reward if you are already 20? I'm not *really* frustrated, just one of those little things in life Mike I agree with that completely. Leveling up is entirely too fast in KOTOR, if it is really going to represent a natural progression of abilities and learning. I looked around at some of the real Star Wars RPG stats for certain characters to see how they compared. Only beings like Yoda and the Emperor are level 20. Mace and Vader were only 18, and Qui-Gon was 15 or 16. Obi-wan after Ep 2 was only level 10 or 11. It should take a "lifetime" to get to those levels. From that, you can really get a sense of how powerful Vader is as compared to Han or characters like that. Now, of course this a video game so it is quite different. But I think that it is too different from what levels should really represent. But maybe that's just me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HertogJan Posted January 14, 2004 Share Posted January 14, 2004 Don't forget that you're Revan, a very powerfull ex-Sith Lord, even more powerfull than the current Sith Lord, your old apprentice... That explains why you level up so fast. You were like level 18 once (Vader Level), but you lost your memory and skills. However, being back in combat as a Jedi makes you remember your long lost skills! So you don't need the time it normally takes to become a bad-ass fighter! The Jedi on Dantooine said something similar about your fast progression... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astrotoy7 Posted January 14, 2004 Share Posted January 14, 2004 As much as I adore NWN, I still wouldnt want to see KOTOR to simply be a clone of it..... You might as well call Daelan(Red Tiger) "Chewie" , Tomi "Artoo". and Aribeth "Princess Leia"...... Im sure there'll be some improvements or enhancements made in the sequel, if there is one..... MTFBWYA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sivy Posted January 14, 2004 Share Posted January 14, 2004 more variety is always better, but i'm not complaining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wanting_info Posted January 16, 2004 Share Posted January 16, 2004 Yoda. As Yoda I want to play. Much cooler the game would be. actaully yea the game would be cooler with more options like that . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drakonsfyre Posted January 17, 2004 Share Posted January 17, 2004 While I definitly agree on the slight problem of repairing a droid giving you as much experience as large battles give you in the pen & paper RPG (level 3 Jedi Gaurdian/6 Sith Warrior BOOYAH) I think that with slower character progression we must take into account the fact that this would make things like improving stats and gaining Feats(my favorite thing in any RPG is my characters OOOH SHINEY abilities, in this case, Feats and Force Powers) incredibly few and far between. I for one would love to see a slight departure from pen and paper doctrine and increase the number of Feats available (Force Powers are pretty well balanced, even with 1/2 level gaining rate IMHO) and number of Feats that you can aquire per level. Another remedy for this would be, as was suggested earlier, Prestige Classes (Sith Warrior MUAHAHAHAHAHA) which would add tons of content and customizability, and could be not to painfully (I hope) implemented in the form of kind of proto-main quest/large side-quests that net you with the Prestige Class( you can only have one per game) and would *slightly* affect the outcome of the game, maybe only showing up in the last battle (Example: in the Star Forge, a Jedi Weapon Master would go the normal route of rather messily [or in the case of a WM neatly] cutting his path strait to our jawless friend Malak, whereas an Officer would command a contigent of Republic forces that came aboard with the Jedi and lost their commanding officer, or somesuch.) Anway, thats my $0.02, hope it isn't too long Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samus Posted January 17, 2004 Share Posted January 17, 2004 I would like more facial customization, like in Galaxies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eidospsogos Posted January 17, 2004 Share Posted January 17, 2004 yes the portraits were limited. but i was okay because i actually found one i liked. so one step higher than JA. i agree with the feats comment. and i would have preferred that when going jedi you got to choose whether you mult-classed or dual-classed. that way if you wanted to sacrifice another jedi level or so you could for the sake of your other class progressing. not only that but it would allow you to continue leveling BOTH classes to 20, instead of having a combined total between the two. it's slow going, but considering the amount of xp that it is possible to get in this game, and the amount that it is actually required to level cap i think ti would be an improvement. and it would increase playability. Epic Levels and Prestige Classes get my vote all the way here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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