Republicans Come here

[reelguy227]

i didnt mean living proof as in the net,but living proof in this world ,the proof i have is living,living in the sense that it is the body,blood ,soul and divinity of Jesus Christ the second person of the blessed Trinity my God which is everyone elses God but people wont accept Him as their God ,but thats their opinion ,like your opinion for example.i dont mail people i dont know ,viruses and such .why do we even debate ,we will never get anywhere with each other ,neither of us will accept the others point of view ,so there really is no point to debating.

[SkinWalker]

Originally posted by VanLingo

NO ONE -- can deny God's existence until they've been through an apostolic, spirit-filled church service and felt nothing.[...] there's no denying Him in His own presence.

 

Been there, did that. You know what? I felt nothing. Nada. Zip. Zilch. But I didn't go into it with a preconceived belief that all that superstitious nonsense is fact, either.

 

But even still, I don't deny the existence of gods. I seriously doubt it, based on the distinct lack of credible evidence.

[SkinWalker]

Originally posted by reelguy227

...its one thing to mock the pres,its one thing to mock republicans ,and its one thing to mock me ,but if yu ever say that my God is not real ill take it personal ,so dont do it again !!!!

 

I notice with some irony that the unquestioning belief in the neo-conservative/republican agenda is often accompanied with the unquestioned belief in religious superstition as well. Critical thinking and skepticism seem lost on that demographic.

[yaebginn]

oh, and michale moore is beiong sued for lying if F9/11 this sint off topic I think darthdurp said it on page 1,2, or 3. jheres a link.

 

http://moorewatch.com/index.php/weblog/comments/897/

[SkinWalker]

That link didn't work, but perhaps this is the suit you are referring to.

 

http://breakingnews.iol.ie/entertainment/story.asp?j=112962824&p=yyz96353x

 

Note that he's being sued for changing the headline on a newspaper, not lying about the Bush admin

 

I've yet to see anyone point out any lies he's told about the Bush administration. Everyone can see where he uses artistic license (and even over-uses it). His stunts aside, the information he's presented against Bush & Co. is spot on.

[yaebginn]

no. he says that al quaida or taliban, or some other mid eastern group like them, went to texas to meet bush ,when they were actually discussing some power company thing and got there with permission from clinton. and he's being sued for lying, yes. he took something from a letter to the editor tihing, blew it up, photochopped in on the frotn page, and showed it in his movie. hmmm. and its almost impossible to sue someone for lying. you have to prove they knew they were lying, and prove they intended for it to cause harm to the victim. not easy.

[DarthDurp]

u wanna hear something ironic? - most of the prolife people ive come in contact with are for the death penalty.

[SkinWalker]

Originally posted by yaebginn

http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/a3.html

 

miracles

 

I browsed those "miracles" with some curiosity, but didn't see anything that offered actual "proof." But perhaps we have different definitions of the word.

 

Which of these "miracles" offered something empirical rather than simply relying on anecdote to make their point? Each of these seemed to be a "story" more than fact.

 

At least hoaxes like the Shroud of Turin or the Image of Our Lady Guadalupe weren't listed.

 

Just to be clear in this thread, my point of contention isn't that people should abandon their beliefs or that any one belief system is right or wrong. I'm taking a point of contention becuase this discussion went that direction after biblical reasons were cited for mandating secular legislature, which should never be allowed to occur.

 

Your superstitions are your right and I support that right for you to have them. Hell, I pledged at one time to go to war if need be to secure that right. But one religion should not have an affect on the whole of society. Its not a cult's place to make or influence legislation to be bias toward it in America.

[yaebginn]

including me. (people who are for death penalty)

[SkinWalker]

Originally posted by yaebginn

no. he says that al quaida or taliban, or some other mid eastern group like them, went to texas to meet bush ,when they were actually discussing some power company thing and got there with permission from clinton.

 

They undoubtedly had to get permission from the State Department (under the Clinton admin at that time) to enter the country, but that's somewhat different that saying Clinton, the man, invited them.

 

I doubt you've got your facts straight on this and it appears that you're simply repeating what other believers have been saying. The dead link and the fact that you don't know whether it was "al quaida" or the "taliban" are clear indications, as well as your mention that they were "discussing some power company thing..."

 

Let me educate you on what Moore asserted in F-9/11.

 

Moore asked the question (among several others, which he preceeded with "was the President thinking...") in the rhetorically assumed voice of the President thinking to himself as he sat in front of the school kids in Florida as the WTC was attacked, “was it that group of religious fundamentalists who visited my state when I was governor?”

 

On December 4, 1997, the BBC News ran a story, Taleban in Texas for talks on Gas Pipeline. Here's a quote from the story:

 

[align=center]“A senior delegation from the Taleban movement in Afghanistan is in the United States for talks with an international energy company that wants to construct a gas pipeline from Turkmenistan across Afghanistan to Pakistan. A spokesman for the company, Unocal, said the Taleban were expected to spend several days at the company's headquarters in Sugarland, Texas.”[/align]

 

Moore didn't lie. He posed a question. It seems that there's no mention of a Bush & Co. lie anywhere in the press.

[jack "odc" one.]

Originally posted by yaebginn

including me. (people who are for death penalty)

 

What about death penalty for a pregnant woman? (Not to ask the question why abortion of a fetus (which is not even a fully developed human being) is murder and death penalty (=killing a human being) not?)

 

I also think Lynk Former made a good point, some of you should at least make a statement to that.

 

And reelguy227, if there was a 'real' proof, the world would know, without that anyone must ask for it. Of course, on the other hand, there is no proof for the 'nonexistence' of god. As SkinWalker said, anyone here has the right to believe what he/she wants to, and you know what, there are people who tend to believe only what they can 'touch' with their senses and that over and over again, without having to wait for 'miracles' (To call it that way).

There is no difference if you believe in this or that god, in no god or in all gods together. A stone will be a stone, water be water, air will be air, regardless of ones belief. And it won't change anything if people on this side say/believe god made it and people on that side are convinced everything just 'popped up' from somewhere.

Even if we know about the existence of subatomic particles, which makes up matter as we know it, this still can be coincidence or purpose, it doesn't really matters.

 

As for the afterlife-reincarnation-hell-heaven thing, again, anyone has the right to believe here what he/she wants to, and if there is a hell and we will be sent there, fine, but this is no reason to convince/convert/etc anyone to anything. If someone doesn't believe in hell, and he is going to disabused, then so be it, then there is the proof he always wanted.

 

We can only say what really *exists* by proof and evidence. Everything else is clearly assumption, theory, belief and faith. There is, of course, nothing wrong with it. Wrong is to force own theories/ beliefs on others. Right is to accept, tolerate and respect differences of others and their theories/beliefs. A religion/'lifestyle', which does not follow this simple rule, may have reasons for doing so, but may also be unaware of the fact that everything is questionable, even the obvious. And it won't be helpful to the credibility of this religion/'lifestyle'.

[SkinWalker]

Well, today your link works and it is the same story I linked to, not some supposed Taliban/Clinton/Bush lie.

 

Moore has not lied about George W. Bush. Every negative statement and question that he has in F-9/11 and other places has a basis in fact. That you would dwell on a non-issue such as the means with which Moore presented a headline in his movie is testiment to the fact that he's telling the truth about Bush, otherwise everybody would be pointing out what it was.

 

Instead, we see Bush & Co. cult members (George W. Bush is a cult of personality) saying, "see! Moore is a liar! He missused a newspaper headline in F-9/11! That's proof!"

 

I'd rather see refutation of the real points Moore made in the movie. Total number of refutations about the many assertations, contentions and accusations Moore made about Bush & co.: 0. That these points cannot be refuted suggest that Bush should be fired in November... if not impeached for treason.

[yaebginn]

in answer to

 

lynksformer- I would find out as much about their religion as I could, then make a descision. I would. I was talking to a catholic person online that was telling me about his reliigon. Catholic and Baptist are very different, even if their core is the same. And I am trying to find out alot about that religion, seriously considering and reading the bible. theres your answer.

 

Skinwalker 1- Arent we all just listening to what people tell us? Unless you witness it yourself, you are just listening to others. You are listening to Michael Moore, I am listening to other right wing people. Its all the same, just opposite. like chess. its all the same positions, just different sides. and I was correct. I said 'alquiada or taliban.' and about some power thing. energy is a synonym for power. and my link was suposed to be about MM being sued. I was answering what DarthDurp said way way before. He is being sued for using someone elses paper and altering it to misguide his audience. an alot of his audience is his fans. He calls America stupid, he once walked into a room full of brits in England and said, 'Anyone of you is smarter than the smartest american' and keeps whining about how america doesnt work and even on Leno, he was complaining on how we should have more parties in elections. And the point is the same, Clinton allowed them to get in, and he may have not said it in F9/11, but I have heard him or read him saying it before.

 

jack odc one- I'd wait for the baby to be born, put it up for adoption, then death penalize the lady. There are people who are on death row for years, nine months or less wont hurt. and reelguy's got that question, thats catholic stuff, and there is a gap in my education in that area.

 

skinwalker 2- I think I accidentally answered these in skinwalker 1 but in ase I didnt, I never said it was a bush taliban lie thing. and no, it doesnt mean he said nothing about Bush. I just havent seen his movie. maybe I'll rent it, but I'm not shuffling out like, 8 bucks out of my wallet to see a movie where I'll be biting my tongue to keep from yelling the truth and risk being kicked out. sorry, I'd rather see the Village. (not intended as an insult to the Village) and what 'real' points did he make? seriosuly?

[SkinWalker]

Originally posted by yaebginn

Skinwalker 1- Arent we all just listening to what people tell us? Unless you witness it yourself, you are just listening to others.

 

I actually take it a step further and look for sources. Indeed, you'll notice if you ever visit the Senate, that I typically cite sources when I'm making points. I already knew most of what Moore had put into digest form in F-9/11 from previous readings. In fact, that people think "Moore is lying" is ignorant of the fact that Moore has only really collected and condensed the information that was already present, which the media was unwilling to continue to ask questions about.

 

I have yet to see the Bush administration or their believers successfully refute any of the contentions that Moore made.

 

Originally posted by yaebginn

You are listening to Michael Moore, I am listening to other right wing people. Its all the same,

 

Not even close. I listen to all sources of information then draw my own conclusions. I've been to all the right wing websites, listened to right-wing rhetoric, read right-wing points of view. And you know what? Sometimes they have points. It just happens that they rarely do when it comes to the honesty and integrity of their cult-leader: G.W. Bush.

 

Originally posted by yaebginn

and what 'real' points did he make? seriosuly?

 

Go see the movie. Seriously. I can't believe you're critical about a documentary you haven't seen.

[yaebginn]

I am not being critical of his movie, per se, but him in general. But still, you are listening to people. I research my facts, too, for the most part. We all just listen to people. Unless you were there at every thing MM had to say, you are listening to him. same with me and whoever I am listening to at the time. No, I'm not gonna give 8 ahrd earned bucks fo mine to go see a movie I may get kicked out of, or sit through the whole thing and get an ulcer. I'll rent the dvd.

[ET Warrior]

And you'd get an ulcer/ kicked out because......you'd refuse to listen and accept that he IS IN FACT giving you facts about things that happened, things your pal Bush has done/is doing.

 

But still, you are listening to people. I research my facts, too, for the most part.

 

Oh yeah? How many liberal / Democratic websites do you visit to confirm something you read in one of your conservative / rebublican websites? You probably don't, since anytime anyone brings up a point you blow it off as 'liberal propoganda'.

 

Now here it is, if Bush is a president that we should re-elect, then please give me five things that he has done during his presidency to really help out America. If you can't even name FIVE, then he's done a REALLY lousy job.

[jack "odc" one.]

Originally posted by yaebginn

I'd wait for the baby to be born, put it up for adoption, then death penalize the lady.

OK. I knew you would say that. But where is the difference between killing and killing? Isn't it killing that is wrong? Isn't killing a 'sin'?

[yaebginn]

no, killing is not. Murdering is. Murder and Killing are two different things. and ET, I look at Democratic Underground, a highly liberal website. I dont know what you would consider really help out, name 5 things to really help out america that Clinton has done, and I'll be glad to.

[jack "odc" one.]

Tell me the difference.

[yaebginn]

murder- the unsanctioned killing of another.

 

kill- to deprive of life or vitality; put to death; cause the death

 

Murder is killing that is unlawful, kill can be that, but it also can be like, a soldier shooting an enemy, or a criminal being put to death. Killing can be murder, but murder cant be killing by definition. It may not make sense, heres an example.

 

If I shot you right now, I'd be murdering you.

 

If I was a soldier and shot a terrorist, I'd be killing him, but not murdering him.

 

EDIT- You guys see the swiftboat ad against Kerry?

[ET Warrior]

Originally posted by yaebginn

If I was a soldier and shot a terrorist, I'd be killing him, but not murdering him.

 

I disagree. It's all semantics, you can play with the words however you like, killing a murderer is still murder, whether you want to believe it or not.

 

I dont know what you would consider really help out, name 5 things to really help out america that Clinton has done, and I'll be glad to.

And why should I have to bring up successes of a past president when I asked first? Even, so I'm not prepared but a couple of examples would be the 300 billion or so surplus, during his presidency welfare rolls were halved and the percentage of Americans who recieved government aid was the lowest it had been in decades. He built up a strong image of America with the world and had a very solid foreign policy.

[SkinWalker]

Originally posted by yaebginn

name 5 things to really help out america that Clinton has done, and I'll be glad to.

 

Two points:

 

1) Clinton isn't up for re-election.

 

2) Why assume just because someone can see that Bush is clearly a traitor and the wrong person for the job, that they believe Clinton was a good President?

[yaebginn]

no, it is a time of war, if a solider killsa terrorist, its not killing a murderer, its killing the enemy, and thats ok, because its sanctioned by the authority.

Now for Bushs accomplishments.

 

1. He cuts taxes.

2. Took out AlQuada training camps and alot of Taliban.

3. Got Pakistan on our side.

4. Got Libya to hand over their weapons.

5. Created Department of Homeland security.

6. Created no child left behind act.

 

Thats six. and about you being unprepared. You are the one who dished out the question, why dont you have ur own answers?

 

EDIT- I ddint see skin just post. Because ET and Insane sith were saying how they liked clinton and thought he was great in another thread. and it doesnt matter who's up for re-elction. I cant vote anyway, I'm just supporting him as a president and skinwalker, your calling Bush a traitor is as far out as Van Lingo callign you a racist. You didnt like being called a racist, did you?

[ET Warrior]

Originally posted by yaebginn

1. He cuts taxes.

2. Took out AlQuada training camps and alot of Taliban.

3. Got Pakistan on our side.

4. Got Libya to hand over their weapons.

5. Created Department of Homeland security.

6. Created no child left behind act.

 

1.)at a time when he was boosting government spending AND starting wars, which sent our nation into the biggest deficit since president Hoover, not to mention the tax cuts fall most heavily on the upper class citizens, which screws the little man.

 

2.)which would have been good if he had tried to finish the job. Instead, he converted to a war on a sovereign nation. This in turn undoubtedly made terrorist recruitment a LOT easier, since we pissed off so much of the world in doing it. He didn't really accomplish much except kill a few, scatter them a bit, and REALLY piss them off

 

3.)On our side? How do you define on our side? what are they on our side about, and how are they helping with anything?

 

4.)I'm not entirely knowledgable on this part of his reign, so i'll defer it to Skin, maybe it IS something he done good.

 

5.)And the department of homeland security has accomplished...?

 

6.)And then he massively underfunded it, making it an impotent and useless act that looks good on paper but doesn't DO anything.

 

 

And why would I have been prepared to defend Clinton? He's not up for election, as Skinwalker said

your calling Bush a traitor is as far out as Van Lingo callign you a racist. You didnt like being called a racist, did you?

Different scenario. Skinwalker is not, in fact a racist. Bush is a traitor to America.

[yaebginn]

to you he is, just like to some, skinwalker may be a racist. Its all opinionated. and

 

1. How exactly does it screw the little man?

2. No, he destroyed their camps, diminishing their number greatly and making it harder for them to train. The war he shifted to took out Saddam, a huge threat. and what countries are exactly pissed at us? Obviously alot of mid-eastern countries, but thats a gimme.

3. They are giving our forces support and keeping their eyes and ears open for any info they get and are not offering a safe haven to terrorists. seems like help to me.

5. Beefing up homeland security and making America safer, the name itself is kind of a given.

6. http://www.ed.gov/nclb/overview/intro/index.html heres a link on what te department of education thinks about it. look at the graph near the bottom. I dont see exactly how its been underfunded, you've been watching too many Kerry ads.