2005 year of the RTS

[FroZticles]

I was wondering when the cavarly would show up.

 

I don't see the problem, how can you say something will not work when they have not even tried it yet. Star Wars is sci-fi whether you accept it or not its more sci-fi then fantasy. EU is all about the story otherwise EU would not exist. Kotor is EU why are you trying to justify it as otherwise?

 

I'm a Star Wars fan I like everything about it, the boundaries most people in this forum set is very amusing.

[Admiral Vostok]

Froz, it takes more than just having a space setting to make something science fiction. Many people don't realise this, so mistakenly label Star Wars as science fiction. However as others have said here it is more a fantasy than a sci-fi. George Lucas himself has said it - listen to the classic trilogy's DVD commentaries or watch the documentary on the special features DVD for proof.

 

EU Fans have a belief that if something stops having more stories added to it then it stops being good. This is of course complete rubbish. Yes, films fade from popularity the longer they are out, but they certainly don't stop being good, and most movie fans don't need an accompanying EU to enjoy their favourite movies for years to come.

 

I'm not just a Star Wars Fan, but a fan of many different movie sagas, and the one I think is the most relevant comparison to my argument is the Back To The Future trilogy. I still love watching those movies and always will, but I don't need an EU to expand on Doc and Marty's other adventures to keep them interesting. Apparently neither do any of the trilogy's other thousands of fans, since a Back To The Future EU just doesn't exist.

 

I think it's kind of sad that people don't find the movies enjoyable enough and have to resort to the second-rate EU authors to keep their short attention spans stimulated. Don't fool yourself that the EU keeps Star Wars alive: it just isn't true.

[lukeiamyourdad]

Hey look at the Lord of the Rings. Nobody expanded anything beyond the books written by Tolkien and it's still the second most popular books after the Bible.

 

 

 

Now, for people who have played KOTOR ONCE and never made a decent comparison between it and the movies, I'll do it for you.

 

KOTOR-You play a Jedi hero with a dark heritage.

MOVIES-Luke Skywalker is a Jedi hero who has a dark heritage.

 

KOTOR-There is a Jedi princess(Bastilla Shan), the hope of the galaxy, that you must rescue from thugs.

MOVIES-Leia is a princess that was rescued from the Empire.

 

KOTOR-A scoundrel(Mission Vao) who's accompanied by a Wookiee(Zaalbar).

MOVIES-A scoundrel(Han Solo) who's accompanied by a Wookiee(Chewbacca).

 

KOTOR-A protocol droid(Hk-47) and an astromech droid(T3-M4).

MOVIES-A protocol droid(C3PO) and an astromech droid(R2-D2).

 

KOTOR-A villain with an unknown injurie(Darth Malak).

MOVIES-A villain with an unkown injurie(until ep3, Darth Vader).

 

KOTOR-Republic forces fight masked Sith Soldiers.

MOVIES-Rebel forces fight masked Imperial Soldiers.

 

Note here that the Republic soldier's helmet in KOTOR is almost the same as the Rebel trooper's on the Tantive IV.

 

KOTOR-A hutt that organises the races on Tatooine.

MOVIES-Jabba organises the race in Ep1.

 

KOTOR-An apprentice to the Dark Lord of the Sith who wields a double bladed lightsaber(Darth Bandon).

MOVIES-An apprentice to the Dark Lord of the Sith who wields a double bladed lightsaber(Darth Maul).

 

KOTOR-Swarms of endless Sith fighters.

MOVIES-Swarms of endless Tie fighter.

 

Do I need to go further?

 

Oh and by the way, I've played KOTOR over 16 times, it's my favorite game of all time so I know enough about it.

[FroZticles]

Vostok- EU keeps people wanting more. The movies can get a little boring after a while especially when you know it word for word. EU adds that bit extra so people keep consuming there products. Don't blame the fans for liking EU and the films because the same guy who made the films also made EU the first time he let someone use star wars licensing.

 

Luke- GL let people expand his creation by letting them use star wars material. Where as Tolkien is not alive to sell his story to people who want to take it further. I'm sure Tolkien would not sell it either and let his books hold there own.

 

I repeat, Kotor is EU why are you trying to justify it as otherwise?

 

Oh and by the way, I've played KOTOR over 30 times. No matter how much you play it, it still keeps you entertained. Plus I'm still playing it at the moment.

[saberhagen]

Less is more.

 

The more EU material is produced, the lower the overall quality of Star Wars material gets. EU is just for a hard core of sci-fi nerds who want lots of extraneous detail of the kind that makes films slow, boring and unwatchable. There is a niche market for this, which can be filled by comics and books because they are cheap and easy to produce. A computer game is much more difficult and expensive to make, so needs a bigger mainstream audience to recover its costs and make a profit.

[lukeiamyourdad]

Originally posted by FroZticles

 

I repeat, Kotor is EU why are you trying to justify it as otherwise?

 

For f*ck's sake Froz, who said it wasn't EU?

 

I have never, ever said, once that games were not EU, I have not said once that I hated EU. What I did say, is that I hate the NJO and I don't want a game based around the NJO .

 

Clear?

 

Now, KOTOR is EU, never have I said it otherwise, you assumed that by me saying it ressembles the movies it automatically means KOTOR=Movies. No.

 

What my point has been since the beginning and what others helped in the argument but yet you ignore every time is that KOTOR takes what is good about the movies, twist it to fit their story but not too much and put it in an RPG.

It keeps the movie feel.

 

The NJO does not do this. It creates another world, way different from the movies which is why a lot of people will have a hard time to identify it to Star Wars.

[Admiral Vostok]

Froz, EU does not keep people wanting more. It keeps EU Fans wanting more, and they're only a subset of people. Most people in general have seen the movies and that is good enough for them; EU Fans are only a relatively small minority.

 

Saberhagen really hit the proverbial nail on the head with his post. It's a simple fact of economics, and basing a computer game on the NJO (which, as Luke and I are trying to point out is much different to the movies than existing EU-based games) is just not smart marketing.

 

That's what it comes down to; not a matter of opinion, just a matter of money. As such I'm secure in the fact they won't ever make an NJO-based computer game.

[lukeiamyourdad]

Looks like you haven't left yet eh?

[DK_Viceroy]

He propably just wanuse a bit of havoc before he departs.

 

The whole IDEA is that it would be an EXPANSION PACK adding in NJO content but not making the game all NJO.

 

Need i say it any siompler.

 

Vostok your only saying EU fans are the Minority I could ask Loads of people and they'd say they're EU fans Vostok you need to wake up whether your an EU fan or a Movie fan your still a Star Wars fan you shouldn't try to seperate the two to do that is sheer arrogance and stupidity.

[lukeiamyourdad]

Oy...

 

An ex-pac would be the same. Waste of money like saber said.

 

So if I poll EU fans and the result shows that 99% really like EU it makes for an excellent representation of the majority of Star Wars fan.

 

The majority are the people who watch the movies and probably never heard of EU. You can make a poll outside a game store about the NJO and I can garranty you, not a lot of people will know the right answers.

 

We can indeed seperate the two. Never did Vostok say that an EU fan was not a Star Wars fan.

 

The fact remains that many Star Wars fan know nothing of EU, even less the NJO in particular.

[Nairb Notneb]

Did I start all of this when I mentioned the possibility of an ex-pac? Sorry. Listen, there is a huge problem with having EU specific x-pacs.

Mainstream Star Wars fans (not the people here on the Forums) don't even know what EU stands for, therefore they have no idea that there is more to the story than the movies. When I say "I'd love to see Thrawn in Revenge of the Sith", they answer "Who's Thrawn and what's Revenge of the Sith?". Mainstream fans walk through the aisles of Wal Mart and just happen to see a Star Wars game that they haven't seen before and buy it. The die hards (that's us) know about a game while its being created (like this new RTS) and will buy it the day before it can be bought and have it beat before we get home.

 

The people that have knowledge of the EU, and the people of a vast knowledge of EU is a very limited number, very small sales. Marketing a game requires big numbers, make a game that will sell to the most people. That's why they keep making the JK series because 3D shooter sell and the JK series is hot. After KOTOR 2 comes out we will probably see JK:JA 2 the next year. Plus more Battlefront stuff. If something works, make more of it. It seems that's what game companies do.

[DK_Viceroy]

Thrawn is Legendary.

 

To say a small proportion of the People know about EU is merely another way of Purists putting down EU.

 

While Saying people who know Enough EU to win several contests 6 times over like myself are few is correct.

[saberhagen]

Even leaving aside the distinction between EU and purist, only fairly hardcore Star Wars fans have heard of Thrawn. (I'm not into EU at all but I've at least heard of him and have some idea who he is). Ultimately that's still a minority of people.

 

Pretty much everyone has heard of Darth Vader, Luke Skywalker, Han Solo, Chewbacca, Obi Wan Kenobi etc. Those characters are firmly in the mainstream of popular culture. You don't even have to have seen the films to have heard of them. The influence of the OT is still felt everywhere. The same is not true of EU. I don't think there's much chance of Thrawn ever appearing in or being mentioned in The Simpsons or South Park for example. No politician will ever try to insult a rival by comparing him to Thrawn in the way that Norman Tebbitt was known as Darth Vader. I knew someone who was a captain in the US marines and he said that the command ship of their fleet where all the highest ranking officers were was unofficially known as "The Death Star". I could go on and on...

[lukeiamyourdad]

Originally posted by DK_Viceroy

To say a small proportion of the People know about EU is merely another way of Purists putting down EU.

 

Among my close friends, I'm the only one who's a hardcore SW fan. All the others love the movies and play the video games.

 

Yet none of them know who Thrawn is or who the Yuuzhan Vong are.

 

Sure, if you ask the people in your SW fan club who Thrawn is...why not just guess the answer:dozey:

[FroZticles]

EU has never had the platform of the big screen it only has its games, books, tv shows from time to time and thats about it. Do you really think the hardcore gaming community really cares about EU material as long as the game plays well and has some nice eye candy its gold. By the sounds of things we are getting a EU RTS for 2005.

 

Saber about your nerd comments your just as bigger nerd as all EU fans because your here.

 

If they made a game about Thrawn and Yuuzhan Vong I'm sure a lot more people would know who they are. People loved JA which is all about a Jedi who has to stop Tavion from stealing all force powers from different locations to resurrect a dead Sith. If they can buy into that I'm sure NJO is no problem.

[Darth Windu]

Why don't EU fanatics ever listen to reason?

 

Let's look at it this way children -

Movies = Well Known

Well Known = Large Market

Large Market = Potential Profit

Potential Profit = Creation of a Game

 

EU = Not Well Known

Not Well Known = Small Market

Small Market = Not Profitable

Not Profitable = No Game

 

Can you two understand that or must I make it more simple? The point here is that if Lucasarts are going to spend a huge amount of money on creating a video game, they will want to make as much profit as possible which means aiming it at the biggest audience possible, which hence means basing it on the films.

 

Games such as Jedi Academy cannot be based on the OT (although I would love to see a PT version) because there was only one Jedi, hence it must be EU. An RTS on the other hand has a great deal of material to draw on, such as the Battle of Naboo, Hoth, Endor, Yavin, Geonosis and the battles in RotS.

 

The fact is, even if an EU x-pac was going to be created, it too would be aimed at the biggest audience so it would have to at least partly resemble the films, much like JA.

 

Look at it this way, how well do you think a JA-type game based on the NJO would sell? No lightsabre battles and wierd looking aliens with snakes that can stop lightsabres - it would be a colossal failture.

[FroZticles]

Where did I state I was a EU fanatic?

 

The only real thing in JA that resembled the films were the lightsabers and Luke Skywalker.

 

Windu take a look at the template you were seriously hoping LA would ring you up and buy your idea. Now that would have been a colossal failure.

 

Windu's template= crap

Not well known= microscopic market

Microscopic market= virtually no profit

Virtually no profit= Lucasarts kicking Windu out the door

 

And you flame me about liking the idea of an NJO game. LOL

[DK_Viceroy]

Indeed Frox I agree wholheratedly with about everything in that post.

 

Isn't making money all about taking risks?

 

They could make Millions from an NJO EX-pack you never know.

 

Why does that rehtoric sound familiar any idea you don't like you just pass it off as Truist's not listening to reason. Hah I laugh at fools who do that:bdroid2:

[Darth Windu]

FroZ-

The only real thing in JA that resembled the films were the lightsabers and Luke Skywalker.

And Yavin IV, and Hoth, and Coruscant. That, however, is irrelevant because as i stated, it was impossible to set JA in the OT timeline because there only was one Jedi, therefore no Jedi Academy. Having said that, I hope LA make a prequel version of the game.

 

Windu take a look at the template you were seriously hoping LA would ring you up and buy your idea. Now that would have been a colossal failure.

A few things i should point out here. As much as you want me to flame you, I actually found your post ammusing. I never expected or even desired LA to 'ring me up and buy my idea'. I made the template because there was no RTS news and I would be honoured if LA decided to use it, but no payment would be expected. Not everyone is as greedy or synical as you FroZ

 

(1)Windu's template= crap

(2)Not well known= microscopic market

(3)Microscopic market= virtually no profit

(4)Virtually no profit= Lucasarts kicking Windu out the door

1. That is your opinion, not fact - there's a difference

2. My template is not well known, but all of the units that appear in the films are in my template, and it does not radically differ from any other RTS. Therefore, the truth is in fact that it would be well known with a large market

3. See above post

4. I never would have been in the door, so how could i get kicked out? As i said, i designed my template for fun, if you dont like it - fine, i really couldnt care less.

 

What you need to learn FroZ is twofold.

1. Stop flaming people - you are more of a joke than a threat, and

2. You need to learn the difference between fact and opinion - you arent always right, no-one is, and the sooner you learn that the better

 

 

Viceroy-

They could make Millions from an NJO EX-pack you never know

Of course it's possible, but then almost everything is. It is possible that i could grow wings tomorrow and gain the ability to fly and use the force, but it's not going to happen. The thing that is relevant here are the Laws of Probability - while it is possible a NJO x-pac could make millions, the probability of that happening is miniscule

[DK_Viceroy]

This is gonna be a fun Vostok free 7 weeks. I do hope he enjoys Europe in the mean time I'll have fun without the Purist Sage.

 

Actually Froz may be mistaking you for Boxboy since he is the only one who even hinted at charging for his template.

 

While the Possibility of a NJO Ex-Pack is low as you say the possibility of one with some NJO content but mostly other EU Content is quite high and as to the chances of it making Miniscule Profit is a farce The Brand of Star Wars could be used to sell fried Manure on a stick as a food product if it was called Offical Star Wars Hutt Jerky or something like that.

 

I doubt a NJO Ex-Pack could be as much as a disaster of Force Commander.

 

Windu you should remeber it's not actually LA that's making the game or have you forgtooten it's Petroglyph which is ran by the same people who created the CnC series they can make anything a hit including an NJO ex-pack so don't leap to the conclusion that they can't do it.

[FroZticles]

I don't flame anyone I simply state my opinion. I state my opinion and someone doesn't like it I get jumped by basically the same people everytime (which doesn't faze me because I don't crack under pressure and will fight to the end).

 

I find it funny how you say I think everything I post is fact which is coming you of all people on this forum. LOL you saying your not flaming me about that post..... well I consider cheap shots and low blows as a flame post so you suck at trying to cover it up. All the films units appear in your template yes but the horrible gameplay and copyrighted material LA would have about 5 law suits if they followed your template to scale. Go back to your delusional state and wait by the phone for LA to give you a job at least then you were stubborn but reasonable now your just childish.

 

Flame wars over EU again!!!!

[DK_Viceroy]

You can tell we're happy that Vostok's gone the Purist Sage was the Restraining Bolt here.

 

The Agruments will be more balanced this time since it'll be a 3 on 3

 

Windu you are flaming Froz

Not everyone is as greedy or synical as you FroZ

 

May I also point out to windu since the Spelling Nazi is not present that you spell Synical as you put it with a C not an S so it should be Cynical

 

This will be a fun 7 weeks in a way I hope Vostok doesn't find an internet Cafe by the time he gets back we'll have windu in the stocks or ripping his hair out.

[lukeiamyourdad]

I still live and breathe.

 

First off:

 

Froz: Your opinion came out as an insult. If you can't post an opinion without insulting someone, don't.

 

(1)Windu's template= crap

(2)Not well known= microscopic market

(3)Microscopic market= virtually no profit

(4)Virtually no profit= Lucasarts kicking Windu out the door

 

Let me take this as an example. While point 2 and 3 are not flames, point 1 and 4 are. Windu might have taken your opinion more seriously if you didn't flame.

 

 

Viceroy: F*ck stop mentioning f*cking Puzzlebox! He's been gone for who knos how many f*cking months! Get over it already!

 

Sorry about that. It's just really annoying that you can't simply get over someone in an internet forum. Sheesh.

 

Windu: Answering to flames with flames is not the right way.

 

Try avoiding things such as this:

you are more of a joke than a threat,

 

Now to whoever says JA SP was good, I'm just going to answer this:

 

 

Now, people love JA because of the multiplayer aspect that allowed customization of your character and lightsaber. They liked MP. Most of the people I know, both at the SWK and JK.net think the JA story was pretty lame. They did NOT buy into that. Your argument is based on who knows what stats.

[DK_Viceroy]

I use him as an example. One of someone we should all never Aspire to become and the Avatar of All Arrogance and All that is Horrible AKA THE DARK SIDE

 

I'd agree with Point 4 since Windu has been a little smug in the area of his Template being accepted and since I didn't get involved in Template Flapping I Can quite freely complain about others.

[Nairb Notneb]

What is the recurring theme in the games that are successful? Playability. Ease of modification. New features. Familiarity with the movies and past games.

 

How big is the EU? Not that big in the mainstream. To base a game solely on EU will not work. It must come from some base. It has to branch from the movies or from a previous game. How well did JK:Mysteries of the Sith do? The problems with it were that it required a version of Dark Forces to be able to play it and it was based on Mara Jade. Most people have no clue who she is.

 

To prove my point I will share a personal story with you all.

 

Being the big Star Wars geek that I am, I wanted to name my kid after a character. I didn't want it to be obvious to the average Joe (or my wife because she would never go for it if she knew) so I suggested Mara. My wife loved the name and so it was. After four years only one person has said anything to me about her name, and every one that knows me knows that I am a die hard SW fan. The EU is not mainstream, it does not carry the fan base that the Movies does. The majority of the world is oblivious to the fact that Palpatine is the Emperor. They suspect it, but they don't "know" it. This is reality. There are some people on this forum that don't believe that, I've been to the thread (God help those people).

 

The NJO would be an ok addition as a "toy box" character or small civ type thing, or scenario, maybe even it will work in the years after ROTS has been out, like in 2008.

 

But when people get a game with EU based characters and vehicles, they think that they were created just for those games and that they are new items. I've done that in the past, until I learned better.