Shok_Tinoktin Posted October 13, 2004 Share Posted October 13, 2004 In ESB, Vader tells Luke to join him, so they could rule the galaxy as father and son. Was this a tactic by Vader, in hopes of getting Luke to serve the Emperor, or did Vader actually want to challenge Palpatine's reign, and needed Luke's help? IMO, he actually wanted to join forces with his son, and overthrow Palpatine. A semi-related question, did Luke drop in an attempt to committ suicide, and assure that he never served the Empire; or did he just give himself to the will of the force, and trust that he could safely escape? On this, I have to say he trusted the force, but I am uncertain. Insight, anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coupes. Posted October 13, 2004 Share Posted October 13, 2004 The Emperor wanted Luke to kill Vader so he could have a new apprentice, with more potential, since Vader was mostly machine. Vader wanted Luke to join him so they could kill the Emperor, thus, making him the Master and Leader of the Empire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lieutenant_kettch Posted October 13, 2004 Share Posted October 13, 2004 Vader wanted to become ruler, and kill the emperor,the emperor wanted luke, and kill vader luke is crazy, possibly suicidal, i don't think he was trained enough to be willing to give himself to the force like that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lynk Former Posted October 14, 2004 Share Posted October 14, 2004 Originally posted by rcsquirrel900 luke is crazy, possibly suicidal, i don't think he was trained enough to be willing to give himself to the force like that Ever heard of the expression "I'd rather die than join you" or many other variations along that line? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shok_Tinoktin Posted October 14, 2004 Author Share Posted October 14, 2004 Originally posted by Lynk Former Ever heard of the expression "I'd rather die than join you" or many other variations along that line? It is possible to say that he had resigned himself to death, but I think his expression looked more like he was letting the force guide him. I doubt he knew specifically what would happen to him, but I think he knew that it was the right thing to do, and that this knowledge came from the force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted October 14, 2004 Share Posted October 14, 2004 Originally posted by .:CoupeS:. The Emperor wanted Luke to kill Vader so he could have a new apprentice, with more potential, since Vader was mostly machine. Vader wanted Luke to join him so they could kill the Emperor, thus, making him the Master and Leader of the Empire. That is the way of the Sith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ET Warrior Posted October 14, 2004 Share Posted October 14, 2004 Originally posted by rcsquirrel900 luke is crazy, possibly suicidal, i don't think he was trained enough to be willing to give himself to the force like that Not entirely sure at what point you're talking about. Are you talking about when he let himself be captured on Endor? Because when he confronted Vader on Endor it was fairly obvious that he believed in his own ability to turn Vader back to the light and Vader wouldn't even take him to the emperor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lieutenant_kettch Posted October 14, 2004 Share Posted October 14, 2004 Originally posted by ET Warrior Not entirely sure at what point you're talking about. Are you talking about when he let himself be captured on Endor? Because when he confronted Vader on Endor it was fairly obvious that he believed in his own ability to turn Vader back to the light and Vader wouldn't even take him to the emperor. No, i was talking about his leap from cloud city. about whether it was a suicide leap(as in, rather die than join you) or if he trusted the force to bring him to safely i didn't think he had enough experience or training in the force to trust the force to save him if he left, so i was thinking it was more along the lines of:i'd rather die than join you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sivy Posted October 14, 2004 Share Posted October 14, 2004 Originally posted by Prime That is the way of the Sith. exactly, all sith lords at some point challenge their masters in order to take their place. vader wanted to take over from palpatine and have luke as his new apprentice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lieutenant_kettch Posted October 14, 2004 Share Posted October 14, 2004 Originally posted by Sivy exactly, all sith lords at some point challenge their masters in order to take their place. vader wanted to take over from palpatine and have luke as his new apprentice. That could be one of the reasons Maul was so easily tossed aside, palpatine didn't want to be challenged. However, the thing that doesn't make sense is why palpatine wanted Vader to sway Luke. It seems obvious that if the three of them were together, vader and luke would have a stronger bon than palpy and either of them, so they would remove him from power. Also, palpatine should have known that if Luke didn't come to the dark side, he was obviously strong enough to make vader betray the dark side, so why not go about it some other way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ET Warrior Posted October 14, 2004 Share Posted October 14, 2004 I dont think the Emperor believed that Vader would ever be redeemed back to the lightside, and he knew he was deffinitely powerful enough to kill Luke if luke didn't join. He wanted Vader to sway luke so Luke would KILL Vader, and then The emperor would get Luke as his apprentice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lieutenant_kettch Posted October 14, 2004 Share Posted October 14, 2004 but i would think it more likely that luke keep vader alive and kill palpatine, since he was more connected to his father Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted October 14, 2004 Share Posted October 14, 2004 Originally posted by rcsquirrel900 That could be one of the reasons Maul was so easily tossed aside, palpatine didn't want to be challenged. However, the thing that doesn't make sense is why palpatine wanted Vader to sway Luke. It seems obvious that if the three of them were together, vader and luke would have a stronger bon than palpy and either of them, so they would remove him from power. Also, palpatine should have known that if Luke didn't come to the dark side, he was obviously strong enough to make vader betray the dark side, so why not go about it some other way? Vader, despite some treasonous intentions, was fairly loyal to the Emperor. He resists Luke in ROTJ by saying "I MUST Obey my Master!" as if they have a strong bond. After all they've been killing folks together and having power for over 20 years! I think Vader is weak, but he sees he can be strong enough to beat the Emperor if he has Luke loyal to him. The Emperor sees that he can get Luke as a fresh new apprentice to mould to his whims. The trick is that Luke has no real relation to the Emperor. If anything he hates him because it was the Emperor who had the Death Stars built and is in charge of this whol oppressive regime (the civil war, everything). Vader on the other hand has the wild card "I'm your father." Luke's Father is the central focus of his life basically, so Vader can reel him in with that emotional bomb. Luke hates Vader until he realizes that this man he hated is his father. But this could possibly be used to get him on the side of the Sith, then they have only to corrupt him. The Emperor, being more powerful than Vader in the Force (at least in his mind) probably thinks he can sway Luke away from Vader, and Vader will just sit by and watch it happen, because he is loyal. Remember, the Emperor has been around. Sure his overconfidence is his weakness, but he's done a lot with his will. He's taken over the Republic and transformed it into the Empire. He's had at least two other apprentices before Anakin. He's corrupted two "good" Jedi to his ways. He's got every right to be an egomaniac and think things will keep going his way. The part about getting Luke to kill Vader I always thought was something that came up after once Palpy sensed that Vader was against him (note the scene "I wonder if your feelings on this matter are clear, Lord Vader..." that's when I think he starts to suspect that Vader is plotting something). While Lucas does say that the reason Vader isn't as powerful as he could be is because of his injuries troubles me a bit. I always thought that the state of your physical body was irrelevant to your use of the Force. But, the Flanneled One may have a point. Yoda needs to use up a lot of "Force" to make himself from a hobbling old dude to a flipping acrobatic monkey, so perhaps its the same way with Vader. Even if his cybernetic parts are superhuman in strength, he still needs to overcome their limitations for his own powers. Another factor that might make Vader weaker than he could be the "conflict" (the good in him) that makes his dark side powers incomplete (without perfect hatred or something). But I still think the main reason Palpatine substitutes Luke for Vader is because of Vader's treason. While having two apprentices at once might cause a rivalry (especially if Vader thinks of Luke as his son whom HE has control over), Palpatine wouldn't have to get rid of one of them right away, but probably sooner or later given the nature of the Sith and his desire to remain in control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shok_Tinoktin Posted October 14, 2004 Author Share Posted October 14, 2004 I don't think that the Emperor ever wanted (or expected for that matter) to have Vader and Luke as apprentices at the same time. As for why he would want Luke instead of Vader, I have two ideas. The first, is that he turned them against each other, so he could have whichever one was stronger. The other possibility, is that the Emperor knew that having Luke fighting against the Rebellion, would be as (if not more) demoralizing to them, as it was for the Jedi to have Anakin fight against them. But this brings up another good question, did Palpatine want Luke to know that Vader was his father? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lieutenant_kettch Posted October 14, 2004 Share Posted October 14, 2004 i think so, because that would do one of two things a) anger luke even more that his father betrayed him b) use that bond to bring luke over to the dark side i just don't think palpatine could foresee vaders betrayal at the hands of luke because of that bond Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sivy Posted October 15, 2004 Share Posted October 15, 2004 Originally posted by Kurgan While Lucas does say that the reason Vader isn't as powerful as he could be is because of his injuries troubles me a bit. I always thought that the state of your physical body was irrelevant to your use of the Force. But, the Flanneled One may have a point. Yoda needs to use up a lot of "Force" to make himself from a hobbling old dude to a flipping acrobatic monkey, so perhaps its the same way with Vader. Even if his cybernetic parts are superhuman in strength, he still needs to overcome their limitations for his own powers. the force flows through a jedi's (and sith's) body. but vader has mostly mechanical limbs, so then the force wouldn't be able to flow through them as its not living tissue. i do think that limits the force powers he can use. also his suit must limit them as well, for insistence he obviously can’t use lightning. he can’t move very fast or do anything that will quicken his breathing too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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