Increasing stupidity...

[Loopster]

I gotta admit that the student essay sounds like a big waste of resources. If they were grading solely on spelling and grammar that would be one thing, but I thought they already had a part of the test for that.

 

I'd take math over the analogies anyday though. Any. Day.

 

+ - x =

[Ray Jones]

"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for

authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place

of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their

households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They

contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties

at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers."

 

-socrates, over 2000 years ago

[toms]

i was looking for that quote... i knew he said something like that.

 

I agree. Young people have a difficult time thinking ahead. Most of this generation only cares about what happens as far as a week from the current time.

 

That is nothing special about this generation. It is true of any generation of kids. I was a pretty privilleged, educated and well behaved kid, but that didn't mean i could think far ahead. YOu only learn about consequences through life experience... which kids obviously don't have.

 

That is why i feel that, if you are going to make kids make life affecting decisions then you need to TRY and give them relevant experiences that allow them to see the possible consequences of those decisions.

[Spider AL]

Whenever there's a discussion regarding the degradation of our education system and society as a whole, people wheel out the Socrates as if to say that we're all just nostalgiamaniacs.

 

It don't wash, gentlefolks, because we had a period of IMPROVED society within living memory. Even a decade or fifteen years ago, things were better than they are now. But the degradation really started in earnest (to my mind) in the early eighties, perhaps even late seventies. Those were the years in which the negative changes became noticable.

 

And this discussion hasn't been about whippersnappers disrespecting their elders, it's been about the fact that we had a golden age of education, and now we're slipping backwards into darkness once more. Aren't we supposed to be evolving?

 

Last I saw... this was a thread about stupidity/school systems...

 

Tell me, what does the alert level have to do with our education?

It has a great deal to do with stupidity.

[Ray Jones]

i did not try to find excuses or something.

 

but it's simple as that. there is a point where the older generation should take a look at the younger generation and follow or at least accept a change. i kind of get sick when i hear "i walked to school, without shoes, in december!" kind of stuff. yes, and i still know bw-tv-sets and 8-bit computers.

 

i also would like to point out that you can't blame anything on the hard working mum. my mum worked hard. real hard. but i had no problem with doing my homework or something. damnit mums dont work hard to let their kids fail in homeworks. there is money needed to provide a home, clothes and food. and stuff for school, pencils, paper etc.

 

however the basic thing in teaching our younglings is that "laziness" is teached exactly the same way as "sedulousness", they'll mainly do it as we do, but within the terms of their time.

[Spider AL]

but it's simple as that. there is a point where the older generation should take a look at the younger generation and follow or at least accept a change.

Accept a change for the worse? Why? Once again, this isn't about kids being disrespectful to their elders, this is about rising ignorance and crime. Why should we accept this downturn?

[CapNColostomy]

Originally posted by Spider AL

It don't wash, gentlefolks, because we had a period of IMPROVED society within living memory. Even a decade or fifteen years ago, things were better than they are now. But the degradation really started in earnest (to my mind) in the early eighties, perhaps even late seventies. Those were the years in which the negative changes became noticable.

 

Huh? I disagree. Things have always been kinda ****ered up. The only difference I see is that there are more people now. The earths human population keeps growing, and turning out big-time turds. Me and you included. And especially Skinwalker. Oh, and reporters and news channels, so we notice the crap things that happen more. Can't forget them.

 

10-15 years ago, things were exactly as bad as they are now. You know a time when there actually was nothing stupid or negative happening on our planet? Dial back the time machine to just before humans showed up here.

[Spider AL]

The earths human population keeps growing, and turning out big-time turds. Me and you included.

Speak for yourself, babe.

 

10-15 years ago, things were exactly as bad as they are now.

This statement is belied by the fact that more uni graduates could spell and perform simple calculations, fifteen years ago.

[kipperthefrog]

Originally posted by CapNColostomy

Huh? I disagree. Things have always been kinda ****ered up. The only difference I see is that there are more people now. The earths human population keeps growing, and turning out big-time turds. Me and you included. And especially Skinwalker. Oh, and reporters and news channels, so we notice the crap things that happen more. Can't forget them.

 

10-15 years ago, things were exactly as bad as they are now. You know a time when there actually was nothing stupid or negative happening on our planet? Dial back the time machine to just before humans showed up here.

 

Are you sayint the increasing population is weakening our education systems?

 

That is one of many possibilities. It is also possible that teachers are underpaid. why go to colledge just to get a $20,000 a year job? All the tax money is going to the polititions who is in charge of... welll... ...where the money goes! "To ME of course."

 

If we paid teachers more it would be more attractive to smarter people.

[jon_hill987]

I have just come up with a theory that may shock you.

 

Natural selection is causing the Increasing stupidity. more intelligent people tend to be career orientated and as a result have less children than the "dumb" part of the population (who tend to have about 10), if this continues eventualy the human race will be back to living in caves.

 

I suggest sterilisation for everyone who fails their GCSE's

[Cpt. Bannon]

Actually, natural selection (aka "survival of the fittest") has been completely removed from our society (most specifically us/europe)

[Spider AL]

Can't really remove it. It's merely the fact that those that reproduce most will spread their genetic identity around further. Thus, geeks and their DNA will always be the hapless victims of natural selection.

[kipperthefrog]

Originally posted by jon_hill987

I have just come up with a theory that may shock you.

 

Natural selection is causing the Increasing stupidity. more intelligent people tend to be career orientated and as a result have less children than the "dumb" part of the population (who tend to have about 10), if this continues eventualy the human race will be back to living in caves.

 

I suggest sterilisation for everyone who fails their GCSE's

 

the smart are attractive becuase they are smooth talkers while the dumb can't get a date. the smart get rich and aways has children to pass on their wealth. Paris Hilton's dad for example, although Paris Hilton is an idiot.

[Tyrion]

Originally posted by kipperthefrog

the smart are attractive becuase they are smooth talkers while the dumb can't get a date. the smart get rich and aways has children to pass on their wealth. Paris Hilton's dad for example, although Paris Hilton is an idiot.

 

The ruthless get rich, not exactly the smart.

[kipperthefrog]

Originally posted by Tyrion

The ruthless get rich, not exactly the smart.

 

good point.

[Ray Jones]

Originally posted by Spider AL

Accept a change for the worse?

of course not! on the other hand, who knows what turns out to be 'good' or 'bad' in the future? (and before you say it.. crime will not necessarily turn out to be good.. ;D)

 

Once again, this isn't about kids being disrespectful to their elders, this is about rising ignorance and crime. Why should we accept this downturn?

maybe it's also about elders being disrespectful to their kids? do you think this downturn is because the kids want it like that?

[Spider AL]

of course not! on the other hand, who knows what turns out to be 'good' or 'bad' in the future?

Ignorance can't result in anything good, mate. At least, nothing INTENTIONALLY good. So are you suggesting that we cede control of our society to the whims of fate?

 

maybe it's also about elders being disrespectful to their kids?

It's about elders being disrespectful to their kids' future.

[Ray Jones]

Originally posted by Spider AL

Ignorance can't result in anything good, mate. At least, nothing INTENTIONALLY good. So are you suggesting that we cede control of our society to the whims of fate?

hey, i cannot remember that i said something like "follow the ignorant youth"..

 

however, i was more talking about changes that are comming with a younger generation and that it cannot always be like "back in the days". it's not always useful to press the young generation into the schemes of the old. things will change, with or without anyone of us, and luckily enough many 'old traditions' are disappearing. also what may look bad today may cause something good in the future.

sure is, the problems of today are different than those 200 years ago, and already are different than those in 200 years. and they are simply, who expected something else, a reflection of our society.

 

and i have to add that not only 'young' people are 'ignorant'. it's mostly the young ones which are simply unexperienced and this results in ignorance if not 'handled' properly. they need guidance, teaching, examples, role models (in a positive way) and a perspective. mostly they would need this at home, but they also have to find those attributes in society in common. but they don't. in fact they 'learn' their ignorance from us, the past generation.

 

 

 

It's about elders being disrespectful to their kids' future.

ergo it's about ignorant elders.

[Spider AL]

hey, i cannot remember that i said something like "follow the ignorant youth"..

You DID imply that we should just ignore these changes for the worse and go along with them, however. This is plainly wrong.

 

and i have to add that not only 'young' people are 'ignorant'. it's mostly the young ones which are simply unexperienced and this results in ignorance if not 'handled' properly.

Redundant, Ray, redundant. This is stating the obvious.

 

ergo it's about ignorant elders.

I suppose it's about ignorance in general. But more specifically, it's about the ignorance created by the flaws in our EDUCATION system, that is producing ignorant youths.

[Ray Jones]

Originally posted by Spider AL

You DID imply that we should just ignore these changes for the worse and go along with them, however.

nö. i did not.

"there is a point where the older generation should take a look at the younger generation and follow or at least accept a change. i kind of get sick when i hear "i walked to school, without shoes, in december!" kind of stuff. yes, and i still know bw-tv-sets and 8-bit computers."[/Quote]

'accept changes' does not mean 'ignore changes' and 'there is a point' does not mean/imply 'including ignorance'.

 

I suppose it's about ignorance in general. But more specifically, it's about the ignorance created by the flaws in our EDUCATION system, that is producing ignorant youths.

you cannot always blame the education system. (although there are points)

when the education system comes into play parents/family/environment have already done a more or less good job and 'programmed' the kid to how it will behave in school/education system.

[Spider AL]

nö. i did not.

Yes, you did:

 

"it's not always useful to press the young generation into the schemes of the old. things will change, with or without anyone of us, and luckily enough many 'old traditions' are disappearing. also what may look bad today may cause something good in the future."

 

'accept changes' does not mean 'ignore changes'

"Accept changes" Means "don't try to stop them".

 

you cannot always blame the education system.

You can blame the education system for the fact that kids can't read or write properly after graduating high school for god's sake!

[Ray Jones]

Originally posted by Spider AL

Yes, you did:

 

"it's not always useful to press the young generation into the schemes of the old. things will change, with or without anyone of us, and luckily enough many 'old traditions' are disappearing. also what may look bad today may cause something good in the future."

ok, where exactly does it say "ignore these changes for the worse"?

 

i thought it says something like:

"the only constant thing is the change. it happens everywhere. even within the human communities. things that have been normal for decades or even centuries may now appear strange and stupid. and so the sun became center of the solar system, my girlfriend voted for the same party that i did, and i say "here my nigger" to my friend while i bring the (selfmade, yum! ;D) burgers and fries."

 

but maybe i can't express myself this good..

 

"Accept changes" Means "don't try to stop them".

no, it does not mean "don't try to stop them", that would be 'tolerating'.

'accept them' means "realize that it exist, think about it and deal with it"

 

You can blame the education system for the fact that kids can't read or write properly after graduating high school for god's sake!

no, you can't. it's not only depending to the schools. and i don't think kids should start reading when they start going to school for whatsakeever.. the base for that is made at home. home. home.

and i tell you what's going on at home:

-pa, sitting in front of the tv, shouting "did you do your homework, son?

-son, from upstairs "err, not yet, pa"

-pa "jesus christ, do your ****ing homework son, or i will forget myself! if i finished watching [insert random sport here] you have done it."

 

 

oh, yeah, that's great. and pretty motivating, too.

 

(attention please, this was an example and may not be what you have experienced, thank you.)

[Spider AL]

ok, where exactly does it say "ignore these changes for the worse"?

You said here that you don't think the youth of today should conform to the old standards: "it's not always useful to press the young generation into the schemes of the old." and you also stated that you believe that this state of affairs may turn out to be good: "also what may look bad today may cause something good in the future."

 

This obviously means that you don't think we should be opposing the changes for the worse in our education system.

 

no, it does not mean "don't try to stop them",

Yes, it does:

 

ac·cept ( P ) Pronunciation Key (k-spt)

v. ac·cept·ed, ac·cept·ing, ac·cepts

v. tr.

 

To receive (something offered), especially with gladness or approval: accepted a glass of water; accepted their contract.

To admit to a group, organization, or place: accepted me as a new member of the club.

 

To regard as proper, usual, or right: Such customs are widely accepted.

To regard as true; believe in: Scientists have accepted the new theory.

To understand as having a specific meaning.

To endure resignedly or patiently: accept one's fate.

 

no, you can't.

Yes, we can. Schools are places for children to learn in. If children are not learning at school, we must IMPROVE THE SCHOOLS.

 

the base for that is made at home. home. home.

Bad parents have been around since time immemorial. Some of the best educated, most academic figures in history had parents who had nothing to do with them when they were children. (the upper/upper middle classes) So what's your point?

[Ray Jones]

Originally posted by Spider AL

You said here that you don't think the youth of today should conform to the old standards: "it's not always useful to press the young generation into the schemes of the old."

 

and i repeat: not always.

 

does not mean: i don't think they should ever conform to old standards.

 

and you also stated that you believe that this state of affairs may turn out to be good: "also what may look bad today may cause something good in the future."

 

This obviously means that you don't think we should be opposing the changes for the worse in our education system.

 

what state of affair are you talking about? besides the fact that i did not address one certain issue, maybe you are talking about the lack in our educational systems?

i think that can be considered a bad thing. how can it cause something good? maybe it is already something good that people are talking about it. it is a topic in the news for a quite while now, and parents are sensitized blah blah etc..

well that's NOT a solution, nor can we say when the problem will be solved.

 

and it's no question that the education systems start to fail more and more, since society changes faster than ever before.

 

ac·cept ( P ) Pronunciation Key (k-spt)

v. ac·cept·ed, ac·cept·ing, ac·cepts

v. tr.

 

To receive (something offered), especially with gladness or approval: accepted a glass of water; accepted their contract.

To admit to a group, organization, or place: accepted me as a new member of the club.

 

To regard as proper, usual, or right: Such customs are widely accepted.

To regard as true; believe in: Scientists have accepted the new theory.

To understand as having a specific meaning.

To endure resignedly or patiently: accept one's fate.

does accepting the glass of water mean you will drink it? does accepting the contract mean you will follow it?

does accepting the theory mean the theory is right or wrong?

does accepting ones fate mean one cannot try to change it though?

 

enough quibbling.

 

maybe i should point out again, that i wasn't talking about crime or stupidity whatever is within that context.

 

 

Yes, we can. Schools are places for children to learn in. If children are not learning at school, we must IMPROVE THE SCHOOLS.

sure, we must. but children should not only learn at schools. that doesn't work.

 

Bad parents have been around since time immemorial. Some of the best educated, most academic figures in history had parents who had nothing to do with them when they were children. (the upper/upper middle classes) So what's your point?

the point is there are "parents" and "role models". also, smart heads are no phenomenon of upper/upper middle class.

another point is that the childhood plays definitly a big role in later development of a young person.

 

"parents" nowadays aren't very aware of the positions as role models, i think. well, sometimes they know they have to "make up the rules" but.. they fail when it comes to the point of strictness.

also, they smoke in front of the babies/kids, they serve bad/fast/canned/whatever food, let them watch (too much) tv, but too many (useless) toys, they shout, they don't talk in proper sentences, they don't reflect issues of modern time and are helpless when it come to problems related to it. some parent just don't live NOW.

or another example: if the kids has problem with maths/homework it's the kids fault, since it had better paid more atttention in class, but the real problem is, the parents also don't understand the excercise. and instead of admitting it and showing/teaching the kid HOW to solve the problem or at least attempt to solve it, the kid is blamed, the school is blamed. and in the end the kid is left alone, feels unsecure, has done no homework, gets bad grades etc. it doesn't expect the slightest grade of recieving any help from it's parents and so on. that is blatantly wrongslashstupidshlashignorant.

ok, and maybe the teacher should have noticed that the kid still has a problem, and maybe the kid just forgot or screwed one equation or just did not understand ONE LITTLE POINT, because whatever, it just happened, but this kind of parental behavior makes it A HUGE PROBLEM.

 

/my point

[Spider AL]

does not mean: i don't think they should ever conform to old standards.

So you do think that kids should conform to the superior, older educational standards that they used to?

 

Good. Then we agree that the education system needs reform.

 

i think that can be considered a bad thing. how can it cause something good? maybe it is already something good that people are talking about it. it

WHAT? You're saying that this problem is a "good thing" because... it gets people talking about the problem? That doesn't make any damn sense!

 

does accepting the contract mean you will follow it?

Yes, frankly. When one accepts the terms of a contract, one is agreeing to the terms of that contract. When one accepts a glass of water, one is TAKING that glass of water. One is ACCEPTING it, that is to say, not opposing it. Not rejecting it.

 

I REJECT these changes for the worse. Utterly. Unequivocally. Thus, I do not "accept" them.

 

QED.

 

enough quibbling.

What you call quibbling I call proper use of language. And no, I don't care if you ARE from another country, you don't see me trying to debate in Swahili...

 

sure, we must. but children should not only learn at schools. that doesn't work.

I don't recall anyone in this thread saying that they should only learn at schools. So what are you contradicting, exactly?

 

but the real problem is, the parents also don't understand the excercise. and instead of admitting it and showing/teaching the kid HOW to solve the problem or at least attempt to solve it, the kid is blamed, the school is blamed.

Guh, the school is supposed to teach the kid how to do maths. Many parents aren't good at maths, so it's not their fault if their kid can't add two and two after graduating, it's the SCHOOL's damn fault.