BioWare vs Obsidian

[90SK]

^^^

 

I think you just ended the argument. I agree...totally...with your points. There is nothing I can add. Good work!

[stingerhs]

Originally posted by montnoir

Star Wars is not a space-opera it is a really-light version of it. With the emphasis more on action-adventure than the grander motifs like - death of the known universe, or the likes, that are the drive in abovementioned operas. What KOTOR 2 wanted to do was to bring these two together. To have the grander motif of dark hopeless space-opera blended with the fun action-adventure lightness of Star Wars.

as far as i recall, the star wars trilogy is considered to be a space opera. in fact, George Lucas has stated in countless interviews that Star Wars in nothing more than his own space opera.

 

anyway, if the devs really wanted to make kotor II feel like the traditional space opera, then they should have emphasized the Exile's ability to destroy the Force. it would have given the ending much more meaning.

 

in this, i think, is the major difference between kotor I and kotor II: in kotor I, the story constantly emphasizes that Malak must be defeated and the source of his army must be destroyed. the importance is emphasized, and a clear cut objective is layed out.

 

in kotor II, you don't really know what the heck is going on until the meeting on Dantooine. thus, the overall sense that the Exile can be the death of the Force isn't emphasized except in a couple of dialogs with Kreia. thus, no real meaning is acheived.

 

whew, thats a bunch of stuff off my chest. time to prep for that chemistry test tommorrow.....

[Lachton]

I think Bioware did a far better job with KOTOR. What do we have in TSL - half as many sidequests, context/plot holes, unfinished sidequests, NO ENDING.

 

Also:

 

 

1. The last third of the game (from the return to Telos onwards) was simply hack and slash from point A to point B through room after room of enemies.The Trayus Academy was literally room after room of enemies, there was nothing else to it. AT leats in KOTOR, there were parts that made this differant, ie on the Leviathon, u could hack and slash or have fun and release a war droid on the sith. But there is nothing like this in the last part of the game. It is completely and utterly linear. Because of this i won't finish another game. It just aint worth it. Ill play up until the return to Telos then start again.

2. Context holes - ie the ending. Anyone who knows about the Sith Empire knows that it is long gone. After the deaths of Ludo Kressh and Naga Sadow it disintegrated. Freedan Nadd went through former Sith space but found nothing. Using the latest Star Wars maps u can plot where the sith empire was, very very close to Telos and Ossus, if it still existed then the jedi would have noticed.

 

 

 

 

[su27]

well...

 

Jedi didn't notice Star Forge even when it's ships blew up Dantooine.

Jedi and whole world of Miralukas didn't notice a bad and hunger sith until he killed whole world. I'm not sure if they noticed him after that as well.

 

Jedi are overpraised.

[Lachton]

There is a slight differance between a space station and a big evil empire. And a slightly bigger differance between a lone, badly underused Sith lord and an empires worth of evil, powerful sith lords. U could miss the starforge, as it is in a lone system in the middle of nowhere, despite the massive fleet of ships leaving it. A big evil empire would be noticed (probably when they try to enslave their neighbours) and that close to Telos, especially with all the attention from the Republic in regards to rebuilding it. And BTW the Ebon Hawk map, whilst more accurate than the map in KOTOR, is still wrong. Telos should be above Korriban, unless the Ithorians/Czerka manage to shift a system halfway across the galaxy ...

[montnoir]

Originally posted by nas77

There is no reason why a Kotor 3 with a new story cannot simultaneously provide a conclusion to Kotor 2. That doesn't mean you have exactly the same characters; yes I agree with you on that point it would suck. But it would also suck if some potentially brilliant piece of scripting for Kotor 3 couldn't have been implemented because Atton was dead or the Disciple was dead or whatever else the unearthed sound files seem to suggest. It also sucks to condemn a story for being unfinished when at this point in time it is yet to reach its conclusion.

If the KOTOR series would have been announced as a trilogy or a neverending series of games, then ok, I could have understood the lack of conclusion in KOTOR 2. But that is not the case. TSL is a standalone episode as far as we know. KOTOR 3 is not announced. As far as we know KOTOR 3 doesn't even exist. So leaving TSL without closure, is NOT a genious move to facilitate K3 it's a bad move in order to get the game out sooner, nothing more. So yes I can condemn the story for being unfinished at this point because it is supposed to be a standalone game, not a continuing series. The game should be able to stand on its own with closure to its own story arc, not be dependant of others, that "may" or "may not" come to finish it up.

 

Then there is a diference to having a closure and killing off your teammates. One doesn't necessarily involve the other.

 

And I don't think the reason for some of the characters from K1 not being in TSL is that they potentially got killed in K1. Carth and Bastila also got potentially killed but regardless of that, they make cameos.

[nas77]

Originally posted by montnoir

If the KOTOR series would have been announced as a trilogy or a neverending series of games, then ok, I could have understood the lack of conclusion in KOTOR 2. But that is not the case. TSL is a standalone episode as far as we know. KOTOR 3 is not announced. As far as we know KOTOR 3 doesn't even exist. So leaving TSL without closure, is NOT a genious move to facilitate K3 it's a bad move in order to get the game out sooner, nothing more. So yes I can condemn the story for being unfinished at this point because it is supposed to be a standalone game, not a continuing series. The game should be able to stand on its own with closure to its own story arc, not be dependant of others, that "may" or "may not" come to finish it up.

 

Then there is a diference to having a closure and killing off your teammates. One doesn't necessarily involve the other.

 

And I don't think the reason for some of the characters from K1 not being in TSL is that they potentially got killed in K1. Carth and Bastila also got potentially killed but regardless of that, they make cameos.

 

What difference does it make whether or not Kotor was originally held to be a trilogy if that's how it ends up? I know I am basing my argument on the possibility of a Kotor 3 and if Kotor 3 never comes to pass, or in doing so does not help TSL in any way, then trust me I'll share your views. But if it does provide a satisfying conclusion, deciding whether or not TSL is a good stand-alone game becomes redundant (in the same vein ESB, Matrix: Reloaded, Two Towers, etc wouldn't be good stand-alone films according to you) and so does complaining that you were never told in the first place that this would be a trilogy.

 

And there is substantial, if not complete, closure to TSL's story arc. All 3 villains are dead, the history of the Exile and why he is the way he is has been explained. Yes there are things left unanswered - just like in ESB: is Vader really Luke's father, what happened to Han and Boba Fett, who the heck is the Emperor? Not everything has to be concluded - not yet. Unless there is no Kotor 3 in which case, as I've said, I agree that TSL's ending is rubbish. But let's hold back the hostility till we have the facts.

[montnoir]

Originally posted by nas77

What difference does it make whether or not Kotor was originally held to be a trilogy if that's how it ends up? I know I am basing my argument on the possibility of a Kotor 3 and if Kotor 3 never comes to pass, or in doing so does not help TSL in any way, then trust me I'll share your views. But if it does provide a satisfying conclusion, deciding whether or not TSL is a good stand-alone game becomes redundant (in the same vein ESB, Matrix: Reloaded, Two Towers, etc wouldn't be good stand-alone films according to you)

If it DOES end up a trilogy you would be right. But as we stand now that is a big IF. I don't think it becomes redundant to see if TSL is a good stand-alone. ESB, Matrix Reloaded and Two Towers are good stand alones with their own closed story-arcs and a bigger overall continuing story. That and you knew when you started watching them that they were the middle part of a trilogy, from the very beginning. If I knew the same with TSL then maybe I wouldn't feel so cheated and let down.

 

And yes, the Exile's story has some closure, but you spent more than half the game finding and interacting with your mates and they are not even left hanging, they are dropped entirely! Look at the middle parts of the abovementioned trilogies and show me a character that is dropped or ignored from the endings.

 

Also, don't you think KOTOR 3 would be limited as its creators will have to adress some of the missing or dropped plots. If they decide to continue the saga of Revan and the Exile then they can't ignore what transpired, limiting them in a way that a normal closure wouldn't have. They could just continue where nr 2 left off instead of correcting or adressing missing things. And if they don't adress them, then we return again to the fact that TSL is incomplete.

[nas77]

Originally posted by montnoir

If it DOES end up a trilogy you would be right. But as we stand now that is a big IF. I don't think it becomes redundant to see if TSL is a good stand-alone. ESB, Matrix Reloaded and Two Towers are good stand alones with their own closed story-arcs and a bigger overall continuing story. That and you knew when you started watching them that they were the middle part of a trilogy, from the very beginning. If I knew the same with TSL then maybe I wouldn't feel so cheated and let down.

All I'm saying is wait until you know there won't be a Kotor 3 before feeling cheated and let down. Kotor 2 is a good stand-alone because the game is about the player understanding and revealing piece by piece the background and nature of a new character who is essentially Revan's opposite - that much is achieved by the end so it accomplishes what it set out to do and this piece of the story is complete.

And yes, the Exile's story has some closure, but you spent more than half the game finding and interacting with your mates and they are not even left hanging, they are dropped entirely! Look at the middle parts of the abovementioned trilogies and show me a character that is dropped or ignored from the endings.

Just because you go the last level alone doesn't mean your companions have been dropped - they are mentioned by Kreia right at the end and some of what she says, especially about Mira, could make for some great scenes in Kotor 3

Also, don't you think KOTOR 3 would be limited as its creators will have to adress some of the missing or dropped plots. If they decide to continue the saga of Revan and the Exile then they can't ignore what transpired, limiting them in a way that a normal closure wouldn't have. They could just continue where nr 2 left off instead of correcting or adressing missing things. And if they don't adress them, then we return again to the fact that TSL is incomplete.

No they wouldn't be limited. The sound files seem to suggest most of your party is dead. Being unable to utilise these characters in continuing the story would be limiting. If in scripting Kotor 3 the devs get to a point where they say "Atton would be really great for this bit, but oh no wait we've already killed him off" they would have shot themselves in the foot. The 'ifs' and 'buts' are what give them flexibility - they don't have to follow a narrow path already set by TSL.

 

But anyway we could be arguing about this forever. I think at the end of the day the point is, and you said so yourself, that if there is no Kotor 3, TSL's ending sucks, and if there is... well we'll have to wait and see.

[lukeiamyourdad]

Originally posted by nas77

No they wouldn't be limited. The sound files seem to suggest most of your party is dead. Being unable to utilise these characters in continuing the story would be limiting. If in scripting Kotor 3 the devs get to a point where they say "Atton would be really great for this bit, but oh no wait we've already killed him off" they would have shot themselves in the foot. The 'ifs' and 'buts' are what give them flexibility - they don't have to follow a narrow path already set by TSL.

 

Then again, Jolee, Juhani, Mission and Zaalbar do not appear whatever happens(LS or DS Revan).

They're not forced to kill every character.

 

Closure can come in many form.

Here's what TSL's ending is to me.

 

Think ESB. Think Cloud City. The Falcon comes back saves Luke goes in space followed by four Ties. R2 repairs the hyperdrive, the Falcon escapes into hyperspace seconds before the Executor catches it.

 

The End.

 

 

Too me, there is no necessity of killing all the characters and adding every possibility in the cut ending. The ending would have been nice had you seen your companions one last time. Like Atton saying:"what happens now?" or some sort of speech.

Such small closure would have been enough IMO.

[Feagildin]

I don't think we can know how it would have been different with Bioware at the controls, though I will say that I think the ending would have been more "Star Wars" like.

[montnoir]

Thank you for a good discussion nas sevenseven!

 

Originally posted by nas77 Just because you go the last level alone doesn't mean your companions have been dropped - they are mentioned by Kreia right at the end...

They are dropped. They dissapear from narration and unless you pursue the dialogue about "companions" with Kreia, they are long gone from the story.

Originally posted by nas77 No they wouldn't be limited. The sound files seem to suggest most of your party is dead. Being unable to utilise these characters in continuing the story would be limiting. If in scripting Kotor 3 the devs get to a point where they say "Atton would be really great for this bit, but oh no wait we've already killed him off" they would have shot themselves in the foot. The 'ifs' and 'buts' are what give them flexibility - they don't have to follow a narrow path already set by TSL.

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. It could just as well be "Hey i got this superb idea of a character for leader of this criminal organisation, but... oops, we have to use an old one". I see it as they are limited if they are forced to use old characters - because they didn't get closure in the last game - instead of creating new interesting ones. Especially if the developers are not Obsidian (because Obsidian knew where the characters came from and where they were going). The new developers will have to research the characters and give us their take on them.

 

Point is that TSL is a great game but could have been much, much better with a little more development time.

[Drazin]

By character closure in TSL you mean they didnt get to stand on a podium and have medals pinned on them?

I rather prefer the way their future was described over not knowing anything at all. What happened to Mission? To Zaalbar? Or the Cathar? Atleast knowing their future puts your mind at ease.

[Darth Aleera]

I've played Kotor I during the last summer, so I can't speech about bugs and similar, because I played a patched version from the beginning, but there are some things that are easily viewed... for example: in a post on this forum I read that both on Kotor I and Kotor II some areas have been removed, but in Kotor I never recognized which were. In Kotor II, for example, some dialogue lines with HK-47 are about the facility where HK-50 are build. In the game, it's impossible to find it, clearly, has been removed, and so, in Telos military base, there is no way to enter in the sublevel... because it has been removed. It appears Obsidian designers where so lazy that they not even removed these dialogue lines or the doors for the unimplemented level. Swoop races are bugged, sometimes the game does not recognize your time. The end itself is very worse than Kotor I... I think that everyone has played both Kotor I and II won't deny this, and this only to have the game "completed" before Christmas. How depressing. To all this, in Italian translation you've to add badly translated words, typos, wrong verbs (faults of Italian localization) and of course, I speak about people that are paid for their translations. Kotor II is a very good game, I really like it, but is simple, companies are much interested in money than in any other question, and Bioware has released a completed game, Obsidian not.

[nas77]

Originally posted by montnoir

Thank you for a good discussion nas sevenseven!

Hey, you're welcome!!

They are dropped. They dissapear from narration and unless you pursue the dialogue about "companions" with Kreia, they are long gone from the story.

Similarly, in the course of the game, unless you pursue the dialogue options that reveal more of the plot and refrain from always choosing the "time to die" reply, you're not going to know what is going on. So I think you've made a flawed point: as long as it's there the devs have done their job - whether or not you actually pursue it is your own choice and if you don't ask about the companions you can't complain that they don't appear in the narration. Just like if you never to talk to Kreia or you other companions in the Hawk you can't complain their characters have no background.

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. It could just as well be "Hey i got this superb idea of a character for leader of this criminal organisation, but... oops, we have to use an old one". I see it as they are limited if they are forced to use old characters - because they didn't get closure in the last game - instead of creating new interesting ones. Especially if the developers are not Obsidian (because Obsidian knew where the characters came from and where they were going). The new developers will have to research the characters and give us their take on them.

I could say, 'yeah let's agree to disagree'... but I wanna argue some more If they feel they have to kill an existing character to facilitate a new one, they can. What's stopping them? They have the freedom to let the character live or kill them off near the beginning of the game, as opposed to having to make do with the character already being dead.

Point is that TSL is a great game but could have been much, much better with a little more development time. [/b]

Yes, absolutely. There are bugs etc. If everything had been included into TSL it certainly wouldn't have been any worse. But if Kotor 3 has the HK factory and the fate of the characters and whatever else is needed then there hasn't really been any harm done, has there (apart from bugs)?

 

Phew! Do you reckon we should call it a day on this one? I dunno, if you wanna carry on I'm all for it - that's what this place is for after all!

[0rlo]

obsidion did an ok job, i loved the sounds, eerie, dark, if i were that jedi on malachor, yeah, all alone, i'd be scared.

 

 

i felt bad for vrook, he survived all the shizzle in kotor 1 only to be fo shizzled in kotor 2

 

[Grayson]

In terms of story, I enjoyed KOTOR 1 quite a bit more than KOTOR 2. Yes, it was more simplistic, but it was also very well defined. With KOTOR 2, I didn't really ever get into the storyline. My character never had any serious motivations - for dark side, you're expected to "hate" the Jedi, but other than some scattered dialogue references, you're not given reason to do so for quite a while. Early on Telos, you've got a bunch of options that are basically "Screw you, I'm not a Jedi!", but you're running around as a Jedi Consulate, or whatever. There should have been a much better prelude to the game.

 

Past the story, which I think was passable in both games, the bugs in KOTOR 2 are just abysmally bad. I really, really, really wish I could meet the lead of Q&A for K2, and kick him square in the nuts. Playing KOTOR 1, I was never *angry at the game* for being a buggy pile of dogcrap. In 2, I had to collect my jaw from the floor when I got to the swoop racing, and found that it just didn't work. At all. How does that get through playtesting? Ridiculous.

 

And the allies were actually useful in K1. The AI for K2 is just painfully bad. Horribly, almost uninimaginably bad. I can't stand switching characters in combat, because it forces me to see what retarded decisions the game is making on my behalf. Just now, for example, the game had Atton using a mix of regular shot and his master precise shot, against the same enemy (a weak turret). I just don't understand how behaviour like that could possibly be coded in. "Ok, if someone's got a Master level skill.. let's just have the AI decide not to use it for about half the attacks. Yeah, that's brilliant!"

 

ARGH.

 

Another thing that I felt was missing in KOTOR 2 was the romance possibility. I'm an adult, happily married, but the romance was just a lot of fun in KOTOR. It added a lot of depth to the game, and because it was handled in a very mature, adult fashion, it was interesting and engaging. From what I've seen of KOTOR 2, the "romance" is basically one dialogue series. Lame.

 

All in all, I'm pretty dissapointed in K2. The story was (imo) poorly done because it just didn't engage me until the very end of the game, and even then, I ended up going to the last area and not having ANY idea of what my character was doing there until I got well within the place. Bleh.

[Voran]

Maybe I was just lucky, but it seemed to me that Kotor did a slightly better job overall in making plot twists more jaw dropping.

 

 

Yeah, sure I suspected my character was actually Revan around the first cutscene you showed of Bastila fighting Revan, but having it confirmed that first time was still memorable. Whereas in TSL, I felt like within the first moments of meeting Kreia it was like "Oh yeah. She's going to betray me." The stuff about Atton was nice tho. TSL did do a good job about fleshing out the histories and situations of some of the other characters. Some stuff tho, which I imagine no one will ever be able to solve unless you truly have an open ended game, is that you couldn't kill everyone you faced, even if it was obvious that they were going to betray you.

 

[BMartins]

What if Obsidian made a patch that include all the cut scenes, and fix the common bugs?

That would be very cool!

Isn't that possible?

[DarthMuffin]

Originally posted by BMartins

What if Obsidian made a patch that include all the cut scenes,

 

Dream on!

 

Originally posted by BMartins

and fix the common bugs?

That would be very cool!

Isn't that possible?

 

A patch is *supposed* to be on its way to fix the bugs.

 

As far as Bioware vs Obsidian...

 

If we compare the companies, then Bio (IMO) is better, simply for the fact that its customer care is premium. All of their games are also ultra-great. But then, Obs hasn't done a lot yet.

 

If we compare the games, I would say I liked K1 better. I just think it felt more like Star Wars.

 

What should be corrected in the possible sequel is the Dark Side options. TSL had only one great moment :

 

 

breaking Hanharr... K1 had the scene after the Unknown World, which was also great.

 

 

That's not much! We want extreme manipulation a la Palpy

Other than that, your character is basically a 14 year-old bully (gimme your $ or else -_-). I mean, even Vader can be more subtle than that...

[lukeiamyourdad]

I was expecting more force choking options.

 

It would be natural to choke people who didn't see your way.

 

I agree that DS play was lousy in K1 but slightly better in K2.

[DarthMuffin]

Originally posted by lukeiamyourdad

I was expecting more force choking options.

 

It would be natural to choke people who didn't see your way.

 

I agree that DS play was lousy in K1 but slightly better in K2.

 

I forgot a sweet DS moment in K1 :

 

 

During the genoharadan quests, when you force choke the prisoner in the republic base

 

 

That was great, in my opinion.

 

A good DS dialogue tree should be full of [LIE] options. You seldom see it in the game (only a few times on Telos, if I remember correctly).

 

Also, I think they should think again about the face transformation of DS. My character looked more like an undead of some sorts at the end... Even palpy is prettier.

[The Hidden One]

Well even though KOTOR 2 was a little glitchy, I think Obsidian did a little better job on developing it.

[RedHawke]

Originally posted by Darth54

A good DS dialogue tree should be full of [LIE] options. You seldom see it in the game (only a few times on Telos, if I remember correctly).

I agree! A ton of DS [Lie] options should have been there allowing you to tell your companions and others what they needed to hear allowing you to manipulate them, the hallmark of good DS play.

Originally posted by Darth54

Also, I think they should think again about the face transformation of DS. My character looked more like an undead of some sorts at the end... Even palpy is prettier.

Again, I agree! The whole undead DS characters are a lousy effect, who says Evil cannot have a normal appearance... most of the time evil does indeed wear a pretty or at least normal face.

[jedi3112]

I would not really restrict Lie to DS, you could also use it to avoid conflict. If you ask me a good DS dialog tree should consider of some Lie possibilities, a Force Choke every once in a while and possibly even fry somebody Palpy style. And off course a few Force Persuade options.

 

 

Force Persuading Zaalbaar into killing Mission sure was sweet.

 

 

and

I forgot a sweet DS moment in K1

During the genoharadan quests, when you force choke the prisoner in the republic base

That was great, in my opinion.

 

I completely agree on that, Tatooine isn't as fun as tahht one doesn't die, while he could die for the storyline. He's only there to use the power, I think, so why NOT kill him?

 

I agree as well on the transformation, make it a lot more Sith like, and not undead like. The Sith aren't undead you know, they are Sith (I must say it did take me a while to figure out the Sith are Sith)