Magical thinkers opposed to Magical thinkers

[SkinWalker]

Having just completed the latest in the Harry Potter Series, Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince by J.K. Rowling, I can say, as one who writes as a hobby, that I greatly admire Rowling's ability to create characters and bring them to life in our minds so that we can hear their dialects and voices, anticipate their responses because we know their personalities, and feel emotions based on our opinions about them.

 

Rowling is a writer who is a master of her craft.

 

But it's not this "craft" that has nutters like Jack Chick and Laura Schlessinger with their panties bunched in a wad.

 

It would appear that those that the only people who truly believe in the magic of Harry Potter are fundamentalist Christian nutters like Chick, Schlessinger and others. They criticize Rowling as having "studied the 'black arts' all her life" and attempting to subvert children's minds or to "steal their souls" for "satan" or some other mythical entity. When their followers quote their criticisms when speaking to Potter fans (I've spoke to a few), they always have the same answer to the same question. That answer is "no." The question is, "have you actually read either of the books?" One lady even told that, not only had she not read one, she refused to even touch one (I suppose out of fear that satan could actually jump from the pages to her fingers).

 

My nieces live with their mother and visit their father (my brother-in-law) periodically. They are HUGE Harry Potter fans but only get to read it when away from their mother's religiously fanatical household.

 

By 2000, over 400 lawsuits were filed to ban Harry Potter from public schools. This over a fictional and fantasy world created in the mind of a writer and shared with readers. Do kids aspire to be wizards and witches after living the fantasy of the books? I would be greatly disappointed if the answer was no. Children aspire to be cowboys, firemen, cops, robbers, spacemen, superheroes, jedi knights, and so on during their playtimes. Why not wizards and witches?

 

Then answer to that question, is that fundamentalist religious groups believe in magical answers for their lives. They accept that magic is real. The readers of Potter don't. Sure, we suspend disbelief temporarily whilst reading the works and, perhaps periodically through the day in dreams day or sleep. But readers no more believe in the reality of magic and wizardry than do the readers of comic books believe in superpowers.

 

The reality is that people, most of them teens and pre-teens are reading. Reading is an essential activity in improving upon and expanding one's literary skills as well as those of comprehension. Active readers make good writers. Even the bible cannot lay claim to being able to inspire readership on the level of devotion and motivation as the Harry Potter series, which is perhaps the true criticism of Potter's religious proponents.

 

The religious critics often pull various things from their contexts in the books, but are fully willing to cite the page numbers (but then the followers of these critics are generally less than willing to "touch" a Harry Potter book). For instance, one critic I read listed the profanity in the books by numbers of "hells," "damns," etc and even the usage of the world "bitch" as "proof" that the series is evil. By that reasoning, the Christian bible's place is in the trash can just below the thrown out leftovers after cleaning out the refrigerator the night before trash day. The profanity and violence in the bible far exceeds anything our kids will read in Harry Potter.

 

Use this thread to cite sources of religious criticism of Harry Potter (or even non-religious, if you can find it) and other works of popular literature. I didn't list sources that I found yet, but I will in future posts if others don't cite them first.

 

Those who fancy themselves as opposed to Harry Potter or in agreement with the critics are more than welcome to post as well. I'd be interested to debate these critics on the value of Harry Potter and its alleged "danger" to readers. I don't expect such debate to be forthcoming, however, given the silliness of the idea. I think even the religious members of our forum see through such nonsense.

[Darth Andrew]

Originally posted by SkinWalker

I think even the religious members of our forum see through such nonsense.

Yep. I enjoy the books, and I can't see why some are set-in-stone against them. The books aren't preaching witchcraft; for Pete's sake they're children's literature.

[ET Warrior]

Phhh, after reading one of my Harry Potter novels I decided that I wanted to be a Wizard, so the first thing I did was find someone I didn't like, and I turned him into a newt.

 

He got better.....

 

 

 

Seriously though, Harry Potter books offer an unbelievably vivid escape into a delightful imaginary world, which is no more evil or harmful than the Star Wars galaxy or whatnot, as Skin mentioned.

 

Honestly, the only thing that the religious nutters really have to complain about is the WORDs Wizards and witches, simply because they carry old connotations of devil worship and stanism. Had Rowling made up a term for wizard and witches (much the same way she uses muggle) and used a different term for magic, it never would have even hit the radar, despite the fact that they would have been the exact same books, only with 3 words replaced throughout.

 

I have lost patience with these people. They are making fools of themselves, and making me ashamed to admit that I am the same species as them.

[Dagobahn Eagle]

It would appear that those that the only people who truly believe in the magic of Harry Potter are fundamentalist Christian nutters like Chick, Schlessinger and others.

 

[And]

 

[Religious fundamentalists] accept that magic is real. The readers of Potter don't.

Are you sure some of the little kids who read Harry Potter don't think magic is real;)?

 

I remember this interview where a kid asked miss Rowling if she believed in magic and she said no, resulting in a moan from the young crowd. I'm sure most of them were like me (not believing in magic, but wishing it existed:)), but I believe a few of them were hoping that Rowling would agree with their belief in magic.

 

After all, there are kids that believe in Santa and God, right;)? Why not magic?

 

Reading is an essential activity in improving upon and expanding one's literary skills as well as those of comprehension. Active readers make good writers

Hear, hear. Being a writer (if only a hobby one), I'd love to expand on the subject, but I'd go off-topic if I did. Maybe I'll write an essay for "Free thought on serious topics".

By the way, there's at least one thread here in the Senate on the subject. It's by me and is entitled something like "why are spelling skills deteriorating". Revive it if interested.

 

My question, however, is how these religious fanatics can so completely lose sense of perspective. When the mythology-based Age of Mythology (MicroSoft, Ensemble Studios) came out, there was a post on a message board (Age of Mythology Heaven, I believe) from a kid whose mother refused to let him buy the game due to the "worshipping of other Gods". I wanted to meet the mother in question and ask her how she could not allow a kid to play a game about worshipping "false" Gods when she apparently let the same kid play games where murder, pillaging, and general conquest was accepted.

 

Age of Empires II (MicroSoft, Ensemble Studios) features a campaign where you play as Genghis Khan and actually destroy villages, murder innocents, and enslave unarmed men and women of the cities you raze. Axis&Allies (Avalon Hill) is just one of the many hundreds or probably thousands of games where you can take the reins of the German facist empire and take over the countries Hitler conquered in the late thirties and fourties (and other countries, too, such as England, if you're really good). Does the Christian Soccer Mon above seek to keep her kids from buying and playing those games?

 

Christian fanatics seek to ban books on evolution, Potter, and non-Christianity from schools. Should the teaching of World War II and Genghis Khan be banned from schools, too?

 

The profanity and violence in the Bible far exceeds anything our kids will read in Harry Potter.

Aye.

When to stone your whole family and "the hands of all the people".

 

D. E.

[riceplant]

Weren't the books recently banned from a school here in England? I remember seeing something on the news. Apparently, the local minister denied saying anything about the book after being attacked by the press. About the books themselves, I quite like them. They're far from great literature, but they're alright. More importantly, they're getting people reading.

[toms]

I think you mean this one, where a "harry potter day" was cancelled. I don't know of any schools int he UK where it has been banned.

Just goes to show that we get religious nutters too.

 

I think Skinwalker does have a point about belief though. It does seem that the religious fundamentalists do believe the content of harry potter a lot more than most ordinary readers.

 

This may well be because they have already accepted many equally mythalogical events fromt he bible, or it may be that personalities that happen to be easily influenced by such things are naturally drawn to religion.

 

Most of us have the ability to slip into different personas, take on different imaginary roles and become absorbed in different worlds... almost as easily as one would hcange clothes... this is how we can enjoy a wide range of books, games, movies etc...

But some people don't appear to have this ability to flit in and out of different skins... they take everything to heart as being deeply meaningful and permanently affecting... meaning that they tend to either become totally obsessed with a concept (matrix fanboys, religious groups etc..) or totally opposed to it if it conflicts with something they have already taken to heart.

 

I feel sorry for such people...

 

Meanwhile a letter written by the Pope Benedict XVI when he was a cardinal has revealed his opposition to the Harry Potter books, which he said "deeply distort Christianity".

 

The letter was written by the then cardinal in response to questions from author Gabriele Kuby, who was writing a book called Harry Potter - Good or Evil?

 

Pope Benedict wrote: "It is good, that you enlighten people about Harry Potter, because those are subtle seductions, which act unnoticed and by this deeply distort Christianity in the soul, before it can grow properly."

 

In a second letter he gave Kuby permission to make his judgement on the subject public.

 

The letters have been translated and printed on Lifesite.net, which calls itself a Judeo-Christian and anti-abortion news and information website.

 

I like this one:http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/rape/dt22_23a.html

[edlib]

If we ban every book that makes reference to magic, magical creatures, wizards and witches (especially those that dare to presume that some of them might be good) the list would rapidly get very long indeed.

 

Seems to me that if you ban Harry Potter on those grounds, then you will also have to ban:

Peter Pan

Alice in Wonderland

The Hobbit, Lord Of The Rings, (and just about everything else ever written by Tolkien)

The Wizard Of Oz

The Chonicles of Narnia

Star Wars

Anything referring to The Arthurian Legends

 

And many more that I don't have time to think of or list...

 

A couple of those tales, especially The Wizard of Oz, Star Wars, and LOTR are practically the exact same story as the Harry Potter books once you strip away some of the specific details and get to the raw plot and underlying mythology underneath. Think about it...

 

I find it doubly ironic that many of the same people that would love to rip these books out of the hands of American youth, are many of the same ones who are working to remove any scientific explination of the origins of life on the planet from our schools, and replace them with creationist mythology.

 

Every couple of years some new fad, music style, or interest takes over the kids of America (and indeed the world) that the older generations don't understand, and immediately gets labled 'bad for the culture', evil, and even possibly Satanic by those who are always on the lookout for such things.

In my lifetime it has been rock music (especially heavy metal,) Dungeons & Dragons, video games, hip-hop, and now: Harry Potter...

 

And in another generation everybody will wonder what all the fuss was about (remember all the outrage flung at the Beatles by certain groups when they really started to get popular over here? What parent would forbid thier children from listening to them today?)... and the morality gestapo will be on to thier next target.

 

The other thing that always strikes me about things like this is how little faith Americans seem to give to thier own parenting skills, and how little trust they have in thier own kids they raise to make proper decisions.

 

If you bring up your kids right, it seems to me, they will not be swayed by any aspect of the culture to turn away from the priciples you have taught them in home and church... either taught in schools or out of a book or movie. If you have been lax in teaching your kids, and have left it up to others to teach them the ways of right and wrong, and the difference between reality and fantasy, then I guess you would be afraid of a work of fiction.

 

If you distrust your kids to make wise decisions and be able to seperate fact from fiction, then that's exactly what they will do. Unforunately, part of the way to bring kids up with the ability to seperate fact from fiction is to have them question the logic of everything they hear or read... and that may not be something many of these folks want to happen. So they would rather ban the things that kids might be exposed to that might change thier worldview, rather than bring them up able to think and decide for themselves, and instead work to keep them unquestionably believing everything they are told.

[Kurgan]

Interesting insight there.

 

I don't care about Harry Potter. I like Star Wars and LOTR (at least the movies, haven't read the books). Unlike many Christians I'm not afraid of "magic" or the supernatural in entertainment fiction.

 

Heck, I enjoy reading sacred stories of other RELIGIONS (that actually teach their beliefs are the truth) and yet that doesn't mean I practice those religions and have somehow "betrayed" my own beliefs. These folks put up the dichotomy that you either have to believe these stories are the truth or reject them utterly. You can't just enjoy them as entertainment. Of course they'll use the "think of the children" card, but that's a parent's perrogative.

 

The "uproar" over Harry Potter sounds strangely familiar (remember D&D, Halloween, Rock Music, etc?). "Worse" stuff that's less popular in the public imagination will get ignored of course.

 

PS: In other news I've (sadly) been unsuccessful in finding Narnia thus far, but there's still plenty of old closets and doors left to check!

[kipperthefrog]

If none of the Anti-Harry fans actualy read the books, that only prooves they are waging a holy war on something they know nothing about.

 

I'm not a Harry Potter fan, but I recongnize the fundimentalist desire to control other people's entertainment is not about "morals" it's about control.

 

I remember back when Warcraft 2: Tides Of Darkness was big. My Friend brought it from his uncle's house. I played it alot until my freind (stupidly) showed my mom the part where the orcs hung the bodies of the knights and burned them. It was crappy graphics and didn't show detail or any gore. Somehow My mom used it as an exuse to justify taking the game away from me. She claimed I would become a murderer someday if i continue to play them. Remember "Itchy and Scratchy" off The Simpsons? My mom wouldn't let me watch that.

 

To this day, I have to hide any matierial my mom would find objectionable while she does her church services and reads books like "Spiritual Warfare". She thinks she is better than others becuase she goes to church. I heard the preist going "if you buy or play violent video games, your'e supporting a bad thing"

 

It is the ultimite insult to your child to suggest they can't determine fantasy from reality.

[toms]

My mother is fairly religious too... (though in a church of england way, so not too fundamentalist). However she was always willing to listen to common sense arguments about issues, and therefore alway kept a pretty open mind on things.

 

I wasn't allowed to watch some violent things when i was younger (the end of Raiders of the Lost Ark was forbidden for years), but as long as i demonstrated *cough* some common sense and maturity she was always willing to take each issue seperately and at least discuss it. Have you tried talking to you mum about certain games/activities? If you pick your battles and have good arguments hopefully she would be willing to concede a few points here and there. If you prove you can determine fantasy from reality then parents really should recognise that fact.

 

But if they are unyeilding in their belief of whatever their priest tells them, with no analysis, then they are more guilty than anyone who reads Harry Potter or plays warcraft of being influenced.

 

PS/ I caught a clip of a comedy CCTV show last night which showed a clip of a fundamentalist preacher who got caught on camera "participating" in a strip club. However he told his congeregation the highly unlikely tale that it was "a body double set up to frame him". And they pretty much all bought it. In the interviews afterwards it was disturbing (and funny) to watch the logical contortions they would go through to try and reconcile their absolute belief in their preacher with the evidence of their own eyes. THAT is worrying.

[jon_hill987]

Let's face it, any book except the bible distracts from the truth of God and is therefore evil.

 

Or maybe not.

 

Religion is all about power, if people don't believe there is no control, that is why these fanatics are so woried about a fantasy book that could cause people to think diferent things from what they want you to think, then they would lose their power. exactly the same reason they don't want evolution taught in schools, if the kids know about evolution they will start to doubt their faith, the two just can't go together, one has to be wrong.

[lukeskywalker1]

Religion is all about power, if people don't believe there is no control, that is why these fanatics are so woried about a fantasy book that could cause people to think diferent things from what they want you to think, then they would lose their power.

 

People say religion is a tool of the government, but how is the government using Christianity to control us? Control you say? Yeah right, how is the religion controlling you, or me (a christian) for that matter? I play video games, violent games at that. I watch Star Wars, and movies such as The Rock (which is extremly violent, and has an insane ammount of cussing in it) I try to keep my morals in check, and follow my religion. I don't always agree with what pastors say and I don't just follow blindly for no reason (I hate it when people try to say Preachers are always right, because they are not!)

 

exactly the same reason they don't want evolution taught in schools, if the kids know about evolution they will start to doubt their faith, the two just can't go together, one has to be wrong.

 

Evolution and Christianity contradict each other, one has to be wrong! Its common sense, a contradictory statement proves itself wrong. Combining the two makes a contradiction (unless you change them both) which... in the long run makes no sense, because the probability of the changes you have made being true, are practically zero. On the other hand, both have evidence supporting them. Meh, I don't know, but I do like to know what I don't believe in. Yet I have a major problem with fellow classmates treating every word the teacher says as words sent from God. In some cases I want both taught, but I am getting sick of hearing teachers say "the Bible says" or "the Christian Religion teaches..." and they are totally wrong. If its not taught properly, don't bother.

 

The profanity and violence in the Bible far exceeds anything our kids will read in Harry Potter.

 

I can speak with experience, in all the translations of the Bible I have read, the curse words (if any in some versions) are used appropriatly, in the correct context. Not to mention, Biblical translations such as NIV, and NCV don't contain profanity (that I am awhere of, I think its mainly the King James Version)

 

 

PS/ I caught a clip of a comedy CCTV show last night which showed a clip of a fundamentalist preacher who got caught on camera "participating" in a strip club. However he told his congeregation the highly unlikely tale that it was "a body double set up to frame him". And they pretty much all bought it. In the interviews afterwards it was disturbing (and funny) to watch the logical contortions they would go through to try and reconcile their absolute belief in their preacher with the evidence of their own eyes. THAT is worrying.

 

 

Disturbing yes, but this is one of those times when you must learn to decipher reality from... a comedy.

 

If none of the Anti-Harry fans actualy read the books, that only prooves they are waging a holy war on something they know nothing about.

 

Aye, and the same applies to Anti-Christian fans. I hate reading arguements where scripture is quoted out of context... especially here. I wish people would read the book before trying to disprove it. People will load up a bible online (because they don't own one) run a search for curse words, or a word like "murder" or "kill" or "incest" and say "AHA! See, your book isn't so great afterall. When they do this I simply read the verse, the chapter and surrounding versus and find the full interpretation.

 

For Example: "I killed the dog" - Someone could take that sentance and say "Oh how terrible, this person killed has killed that dog for no reason!" but, when you continue reading, the full sentense reads "I killed the dog infected with rabies" That completly changes the meaning of the sentance, right? I know its not the best example... but whatever.

 

I see your point here though, although I have listened to some pastors who have read the books talk against it. Their main points were simply that Harry is supposed to be a good guy, yet he uses his powers for selfish reasons at some points, etc. They also said something about how harry's mom sacrificed herself for him.. etc.. I can't remember. Oh and, I remmeber them talking about pagan rituals which are forbidden in the Bible. They even said that the writer knows of this stuff, and claims that she said she wrote it to oppose the Christian religion. Crap, I don't know if its true, but thats what they said. And I am sure, like I said above, some people probably randomly picked things out of harry potter to make it look worse than it is.

 

I never liked the series, I've seen a movie, and it wasn't my thing. I wasn't impressed with it before all this religious stuff came out.

 

My question, however, is how these religious fanatics can so completely lose sense of perspective. When the mythology-based Age of Mythology (MicroSoft, Ensemble Studios) came out, there was a post on a message board (Age of Mythology Heaven, I believe) from a kid whose mother refused to let him buy the game due to the "worshipping of other Gods". I wanted to meet the mother in question and ask her how she could not allow a kid to play a game about worshipping "false" Gods when she apparently let the same kid play games where murder, pillaging, and general conquest was accepted.

 

Heres my POV- A false God doesn't exist right? I mean, thats why its false... People can worship anything, air, money, or... a false god, (a sin) which is basically nothing. I hope you agree with me when I say, there is a big difference between killing a 3D model, versus a real person. In fact, its not killing, because the 3D model wasn't alive, no matter how realistic it looks. That makes it not really killing, it just "looks like killing." Idolatry however is different- an idol doesn't have to exist to worship it, which means you are sinning by worshiping, even if its in a game. The act doesn't require a physical action, whereas when you kill someone, you have to physically do it (or according to Jesus, even the thought is equal to the sin) but still, the same theory applies, triggering an animation that looks like a person dying really killing? To be complex, when that bullet hits the enemy it just triggers an animation, and a bit of code that cuts its AI. In the background, its just a wireframe with a few JPGs wrapped around it. Idolatry, is totally different.

 

Yeah, you get the above point... I said it about 20 different ways to make it "understandable" I could be wrong, but whatever.

[CapNColostomy]

Ummm...So some people don't want to read Harry Potter and site religion as their reason. BFD. I don't want to read it either, so I at least have that in common with them. While I don't consider myself a religious person by the standards usually set up here in the senate, I do believe in and pray to a God, and I'll admit that this sort of thing is pretty rediculous. I remember when I went to watch Return of the King, I asked my boss if he'd watched the other two Lord of the Rings films. He very bluntly replied "No. And I don't plan to." I asked why and said I thought he might like them as we have similar taste in other films. "Because I don't watch things with witchcraft, witches, sorcery or whatever in them. And I don't allow my kids to watch it, and I won't have it in my house." I suppose I could have told him he was stupid, insulted him, said "what about the time you told me you watched Wizard of Oz with your son, or Star Wars, etc" and referred him to any given Senate Chambers rant/thread. But I thought that what he watched or read in the privacy of his home in his free time, and how he raised his kids so long as it was lawful, was probably his business, and not mine.

[ET Warrior]

So fake 3d images worshipping a false god is bad, but fake 3d images killing other fake 3d images is okay? Just because it's a sin...even though you don't ACTUALLY do any real worshipping?

 

Makes sense to me....

 

People say religion is a tool of the government, but how is the government using Christianity to control us?

...Gay Marriage anyone?

[rccar328]

I've never read Harry Potter, never seen the movies...and don't really care to.

 

Speaking as a religious person, I don't care about Harry Potter. I've heard from both sides - those who think it's okay, and those who think it's some kind of evil influence. I've never heard from anyone who wasn't willing to touch one of the books, but I can believe someone out there would go to that extreme. I've even heard about some people in Albuquerque who staged a Harry Potter book burning.

 

Now, I have no idea who Jack Chick is, but I've heard Laura Schlessinger's take on Harry Potter, and it has nothing to do with Satanic influences...she has problems with it more along the lines of young kids taking it a bit too seriously (unless she has drastically escalated her anti-Harry Potter position since I last heard her radio show, which I doubt). Having heard her opinion, I believe that it is valid, but I don't see any logical reason to ban Harry Potter books. If a parent has problems with Harry Potter & doesn't want their kid reading it, fine. That's the right of any parent. But realistically, religious people who believe that Satan is using Harry Potter to turn kids to evil don't need to keep their kids from reading the book (after all, reading is a good thing, and Harry Potter has gone a long way in keeping it from becoming a lost art among the current generation). Rather, parents should teach their kids the meaning of the word 'fiction'.

 

Really, any problems I have with Harry Potter deal more with seeing kids dress up in costume to go to Harry Potter book releases or Harry Potter readings...but then, I have the same feelings seeing people dress up in costume to see the release of the latest Star Wars movie (or LOTR, for that matter).

 

As for the whole 'government using religion to control the people' bit, the last I heard, America was a democratic republic. Government by, of, and for the people. If the people are religious, then they can enact laws that reflect their religious beliefs. If their religion turned policy doesn't jive with what the Constitution says, then it's up to the Supreme Court to uphold the Constitution (that's the American Constitution, not the liberal agenda for America, like our activist court has been implementing).

 

But this is another topic for another thread...and not one that I'm like to get into, at any rate.

[ET Warrior]

Really, any problems I have with Harry Potter deal more with seeing kids dress up in costume to go to Harry Potter book releases or Harry Potter readings...but then, I have the same feelings seeing people dress up in costume to see the release of the latest Star Wars movie (or LOTR, for that matter).

Having fun = bad?

 

I'm curious to what level you mean you have a problem with it. Do you simply see it as stupid? Or do you actually think it's harmful behavior?

[toms]

Evolution and Christianity contradict each other, one has to be wrong! Its common sense, a contradictory statement proves itself wrong.

Only if you take every word of the bible (whatever translation you happen to have to hand) as being the literal truth. If you take Genesis as being a parable meant to explain the highly complex process of the creation of life and the universe to a primitive culture then the two are in no-way mutually exclusive. And we know that god (or at least jesus) was keen on using parables to illustrate his point.

 

And as Skin said, those exact people who insist on taking every word of the bible as litteral truth are the same ones who condemn harry potter, because they don't seem to be able to seperate out fiction/parables/metaphors or whatever from reality.

 

I don't just follow blindly for no reason (I hate it when people try to say Preachers are always right, because they are not!)

Good for you. The problem is that a lot of people (preachers included) DO SAY that preachers are always right. Which is usually how trouble and wars start, as often two preachers can say opposing things and both claim to be right.

The point about religion (as opposed to say science) is that it is all about absolutes. If a preacher stood up and said "well i think god may have meant this, but its not entirely clear" he'd hardly gain much of a following. If he stands up and says "god says this" he'll have people queuing up to follow him. People like a strong, certain leader... they are less worried about having an honest, correct one.

 

Disturbing yes, but this is one of those times when you must learn to decipher reality from... a comedy.

You missuderstand... the show was funny, but the situation was true. It was funny because it illustrated exactly how people DO believe every word their preacher says. Even when the evidence of their own eyes and brains tells them it can't be true they will STILL make up any illogical excuse they can to try and prove him correct. And this is hardly the first time things like that have happened. If preachers have that level of power then no wonder some of us are worried about what their followers will believe and do.

 

Aye, and the same applies to Anti-Christian fans. I hate reading arguements where scripture is quoted out of context... especially here. I wish people would read the book before trying to disprove it.

Reading the bible is a slightly harder undertaking than reading the Philosopher's Stone though...

But everytime i see a preacher or christian on tv talkjing about some issue they always drag out one-line, out-of-context quotes from the bible. So its hardly unfair for us to do the same.

And with a lot of issues the bible is so contradictory, has so amny alternate translations and possible inferedmeanings that pulling out a random quote is all you CAN do. (this isn;t really surrising considering it was written by so many people over such a long time, i mean look at all the contradictions that have snuck into the EU over just a few years. But that is another story...)

 

I see your point here though, although I have listened to some pastors who have read the books talk against it. Their main points were simply that Harry is supposed to be a good guy, yet he uses his powers for selfish reasons at some points, etc. They also said something about how harry's mom sacrificed herself for him.. etc.. I can't remember. Oh and, I remmeber them talking about pagan rituals which are forbidden in the Bible. They even said that the writer knows of this stuff, and claims that she said she wrote it to oppose the Christian religion. Crap, I don't know if its true, but thats what they said. And I am sure, like I said above, some people probably randomly picked things out of harry potter to make it look worse than it is.

- He is supposed to be the good guy. He isn't supposed to be Jesus. So what if he uses his power selfishly at points, we all do. Even Jesus did at times. And like most tales he usually either learns from his mistakes, or suffers for it.

The hero in the Rock steals several vehicles and trashes them, that doesn't make him any less heroic.

- harry's mum stood between him and certain death... as almost any mother would do. She was then killed. I don't see how that is unchristian. It certainly wasn't "suicide"... unless all those christians trown to the lions committed suicide. It was dying to protect someone you love. Love being the big word in the NT if i remember. And she sure didn't do some sort of pagan sacrifice if that is what you think.

- There is nothing specifically "pagan" in the books that i have noticed. Infact there is nothing to do with religion or the devil either. The only thing there is is a "fictional magical setting" much like there is in Star Wars, LOTR, or any number of films/novels/games etc.. They might be called "wizards" and "witches" but they are simly Rowlings version of a fictional archtype. Its not like the spells are all based on satanic rituals or anything. In HP a spell basically involves pointing a stick at someone and shouting "flipendo!". I hardly see that as satanic, or likely to corrupt kids. And if it does then the worst we will have is kids running around shouting "flipendo!". Only the religious right seem to think that will feed the devil and bring about the downfall of society.

And while we are talking about paganism, Im not sure that anywhere i the bible is paganism or satanism mentioned, as as far as i know they didn't exist yet. There are general comments about not worshiping other gods, but those apply just as much to muslims and buddists as satanists. And the church seems to be able to at least tollerate the publishing of buddist books. but a fictional book that has nothing but a passing relation to sataism must be evil?

 

The act doesn't require a physical action, whereas when you kill someone, you have to physically do it (or according to Jesus, even the thought is equal to the sin) but still, the same theory applies, triggering an animation that looks like a person dying really killing?

 

But you aren't really worshiping the god in the game, any more than you are killing people in the game.

Take Black and White - you create a giant creature and get people to worship you and it to gain magical power. Now if you play that game are you really going to think you are a god, and be sent to hell because of it? Or are you simply playing a role in a game? And in games like age og Mythology you aren't the god, you aren't even pretending to worship the god... you simply watch your tiny pixel men worship their tiny pixel god... if this corrupts you enough that you start worshiping the the tiny pixel god along with them then that suggests your faith wasn't that strong to start with (and you are entirely insane to boot).

 

Fictional realities are not realities. Fictional gods are not "false gods", they are just fictional gods. Fictional witches are not evil satan-spawned corruptors, they are just characters in a story.

Unfortunately the only people who don't seem to grasp the difference between fiction and reality then seem surprised when they have trouble convincing us that every word in the bible is true.

[edlib]

I wasn't allowed to watch some violent things when i was younger...

The irony being (as has been pointed out several times here already) that the Bible is one of the most violent and bloody things I have ever read. Filled with all kinds of illicit sex too, if I remember correctly.

 

Ultimately, it seems to me, that this entire debate comes down to one point: If you don't like the idea of the Harry Potter books (or any other fantasy tale for that matter,) that's great, don't read them... but should your not liking them give you authority to attempt to prevent me or my kids from reading them as well?

 

That's the thing I most fear from these types of situations when they come up. That somebody out there feels they can and should decide what I or my children can see or hear or think based on their code of morality and not mine, and whether or not they have majority control of the government at the moment.

 

J.K. Rowling has learned to use mythic figures and story-lines just as carefully as George Lucas did (with his careful study of the works of Joseph Campbell,) that's a big BIG reason these stories have been so very successful. They strike an unconscious chord in people. The "Hero's-Quest" tale is as old as the human race itself, and this is yet just another variation of it. The specifics of the characters and story really make zero difference, and I really don't think anything more should ever have been made of it.

[toms]

I agree with you about the story and mythic figures.

 

Ultimately, it seems to me, that this entire debate comes down to one point: If you don't like the idea of the Harry Potter books (or any other fantasy tale for that matter,) that's great, don't read them... but should your not liking them give you authority to attempt to prevent me or my kids from reading them as well?

 

I kind of agree with this... but i do have worries.

 

I don't (for now) forsee a time when the religious extremists will gain enough control to ban harry potter and stop people who want to read it from doing so. So we are ok.

 

I have no real problem with people deciding what they do and do not want in their own home (and affecting their kids)... so people who make informed decisions are ok.

 

But there seems to be a third section of society who are (mostly) poorly educated and easily lead and will willingly ignore whole sections of art, literature, etc.. if their preacher tells them to... with no actualy thought or knowledge on the subject. It seems kind of bad to abandon this section of society to become more ignorant, insular and isolated without at least trying to get them to make up their own minds, or consider all the evidence.

After all, ignorance breeds ignorance and that breeds fertile grounds for extremists of all types to exploit.

[edlib]

Good point.

[rccar328]

Having fun = bad?

 

I'm curious to what level you mean you have a problem with it. Do you simply see it as stupid? Or do you actually think it's harmful behavior?

I don't have a problem with it on any really serious level...I just think it's taking things a bit too far. Really, I was being facetious with that comment.

[kipperthefrog]

If only the Fundementalist would focus on real issues, their influence and media attention would greatle benefit our country. Im not talking about the issues about what entertainment people should have, but the American dependance on oil, our failing economy the things that actualy matter.

[jon_hill987]

I feel it is neccesary to raise another point.

 

Pagans are/were NOT evil. They simply worship different gods from Christians, when Christianity came to England Christians started burning them as "witches", probably because the way they worshiped was very different.

 

On another note, wouldn't it be funny if it turned out all gods/religions started because of aliens visiting earth like in Stargate (Something i would have thought the fundamentalists would try to ban before Harry Potter), their technology seeming mystical to early humans. I personaly believe that is more likely than there being a god (That dosn't mean I believe it). I mean, there are so many religions in the world, they can't all be right... but that is for another debate.

[lukeskywalker1]

Pagans are/were NOT evil. They simply worship different gods from Christians, when Christianity came to England Christians started burning them as "witches", probably because the way they worshiped was very different.

 

Im not sure about the English, but in a recent report the Salem WitchTrials apparently was the result of a strange mold causing the people react irrationally. Their were claims they were drinking blood, conjuring, and casting spells. Who knows if its true. They lived in a puritian society under theocratic rule. They were strict, basically, if you admit you were a witch you would be whipped, which was publicly humiliating, and well... you would be lying if it wasn't true (why would you lie about yourself?) or if you don't admit to being a witch, you were burned or hanged. As you can see, if someone called you a witch, you were screwed. After too many people were convicted of being witches they eventually dropped the whole thing. Too bad it was a little too late for those who were killed.

 

Having fun = bad?

 

I'm curious to what level you mean you have a problem with it. Do you simply see it as stupid? Or do you actually think it's harmful behavior?

 

I think theres a problem when people spent thousands of dollars on a stormtrooper outfit to go see The Phantom Menace back in 1999. And I think there is an even more serious problem when people change their religion to "Jediesm." Like rccar328 said, its taking things a bit too far. Enjoying a series and being obsessed with it are two different things. (Im not saying those kids are obsessed with it... but lets face it, some people take star wars too seriously!)

 

Fictional realities are not realities. Fictional gods are not "false gods", they are just fictional gods. Fictional witches are not evil satan-spawned corruptors, they are just characters in a story.

Unfortunately the only people who don't seem to grasp the difference between fiction and reality then seem surprised when they have trouble convincing us that every word in the bible is true.

 

I don't think you understand what I am saying, you can worship something that is not real. You can't kill something that is not real.

 

But everytime i see a preacher or christian on tv talkjing about some issue they always drag out one-line, out-of-context quotes from the bible. So its hardly unfair for us to do the same.

And with a lot of issues the bible is so contradictory, has so amny alternate translations and possible inferedmeanings that pulling out a random quote is all you CAN do. (this isn;t really surrising considering it was written by so many people over such a long time, i mean look at all the contradictions that have snuck into the EU over just a few years. But that is another story...)

 

Aye, some preachers do take the Bible out of context. Thats why you look it up and get your own interpretation. The thing is, you have to read it all to fully understand it. If your playing a game can skip around and grab all the storyline? No, its like using cheats, you don't get the full experience.

 

Contradictions:

 

Uh huh? So you mean to tell me that if the writers of the Bible (especially the gospel writers Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John) were trying to make up a story you would at least think they would get their story right? Correct? I mean, if I want to lie I am going to try and make sure I cover up all the loose ends. Telling different stories (creating contradictions) is not a good way to cover up my lie.

 

You have to remember the Gospels (the part that talks about Jesus' life books entitled Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John) were all written by different people (umm, four different people, Mathew wrote the book of Mathew, Luke wrote the book of Luke... I really hope you see where this is going.)

 

Now, four entirly different people would not have seen the same things. Mathew could have been busy while Jesus was healing someone, so therefore, how can he write about it if he didn't know it had happend? I mean, the Gospel writers didn't exactly copy and paste their work, everyone knows plagerism is illegal!

 

Remember, just because one Gospel has something extra doesn't mean it didn't happen, or that the other book are saying it didn't happen, Its impossible to right about everything that Jesus did.

 

 

...Gay Marriage anyone?

 

I don't see the government using Christianity as a reason to stop gay marriage. I recall a lot of talk about what the constitution says about marriage. The particular wording in the constitution says it all.

 

The point about religion (as opposed to say science) is that it is all about absolutes. If a preacher stood up and said "well i think god may have meant this, but its not entirely clear" he'd hardly gain much of a following. If he stands up and says "god says this" he'll have people queuing up to follow him. People like a strong, certain leader... they are less worried about having an honest, correct one.

 

Not always true. In fact, God himself pretty much told prophets in the Bible to speak his word, and forwarned them that they won't listen or believe them. In fact, he warned them they will even attack them for speaking the word of God. But God protected the various prophets. I mean, my wording isn't exact or scripture, but its basically something that was said here and their. My point is, not everyone is weak minded and will follow a person blindly.

 

I like to hear when someone says God has said this, but I have to rely on God to show me the truth. But I do see where you are coming from, because I seen this stuff my self, with a pastor and other people refusing to see wrong. No details needed.

[lukeiamyourdad]

I don't think you understand what I am saying, you can worship something that is not real. You can't kill something that is not real.

 

I'm a worshipper of Zeus and am frankly offended by the existence of Christian monasteries in the game Age of Empires II.

The Olympian gods are the only one who exists and your's does not.

 

Your point being?

 

When I play Age of Mythology or when anyone plays it, nobody is actually worshipping Zeus or Râ. Tiny pixels do it and as far as I know, something that's not alive, something that doesn't even exist can't worship.

 

I think theres a problem when people spent thousands of dollars on a stormtrooper outfit to go see The Phantom Menace back in 1999.

 

The world doesn't need people to buy a 300 000$ Ferrari. I don't see anyone complaining about that.

 

And I think there is an even more serious problem when people change their religion to "Jediesm." Like rccar328 said, its taking things a bit too far. Enjoying a series and being obsessed with it are two different things. (Im not saying those kids are obsessed with it... but lets face it, some people take star wars too seriously!)

 

I agree that I find it creepy sometimes, but I don't think that there's an actual problem with people having another religion.

Sure it's weird, but so was christianity was when it started. Who's to say George Lucas is not really a prophet?

Besides, they don't harm anyone, it's not like those "Jedi" go around on crusades and kill and rape other people.